joshnes:
Of course people will be condemned as a result of their choice, God did not create anybody to go to hell, God wants EVERYBODY to be with Him in heaven. That is His will, hell is not God's will for anybody but people will still choose that.

He knows they will choose that even before he creates them. Just imagine God in the process of creating a person that will go to hell. Someone who hasn't even started life but God, the ominiscient, already knows the person will be condemned

3nim:


I really believe you already understand my point.

God already knows who's going to hell cuz he already knows everyone's choice. He's ominiscient and is just waiting for the people he knows will go to hell to end up there.

Of course I understand your point but don't mistake that with agreeing with your point. I totally and absolutely disagree with the point you're making. You made reference of Job being made pure by God, but that is not true. Job must have grown himself to a position where God trusted him, he was not made like that, he chose to be that way. Since you're making your references from the bible, I put it to you that there is no scripture to back up your claim of God creating some people for heaven and others for damnation.

3nim:


He knows they will choose that even before he creates them. Just imagine God in the process of creating a person that will go to hell. Someone who hasn't even started life but God, the ominiscient, already knows the person will be condemned

I can't imagine that, because it is impossible according to Eccl 7:29 & John 3:16, God created you and I true and upright and whoever believes in Jesus will be saved. That simply shows that nobody is created for hell.

joshnes:
Of course I understand your point but don't mistake that with agreeing with your point. I totally and absolutely disagree with the point you're making. You made reference of Job being made pure by God, but that is not true. Job must have grown himself to a position where God trusted him, he was not made like that, he chose to be that way. Since you're making your references from the bible, I put it to you that there is no scripture to back up your claim of God creating some people for heaven and others for damnation.

In other words, you actually DON'T understand my point

I never said God made Job pure. I acknowledged the fact that Job chose his path himself.
Before Job was born, God, the ominiscient, already knew his life story, from "beginning to end".

So he knew that Job will end up in heaven, while creating him.

This same God, the ominiscient, created Lucifer, and in the process of making Lucifer, he already knew Lucifer's future as the devil.

If you disagree, then we can choose to agree that God is NOT ominiscient.

God will let a new baby be born in the next 3 weeks. Maybe he has not created this child yet but he is ominiscient so he can already tell you that this child will have free will like you, obviously, and that this child will make the wrong choices and go to hell.
He hasn't even created the child.
You know what I'd suggest to him? That he didn't make that child at all. Since he has seen the child's future eternal torment, he should spare the child. He should only make the children that he knows will make good choices.

joshnes:
I can't imagine that, because it is impossible according to Eccl 7:29 & John 3:16, God created you and I true and upright and whoever believes in Jesus will be saved. That simply shows that nobody is created for hell.

I thought nothing is impossible for God.
Or do you not agree with that statement?

joshnes:
I can't imagine that, because it is impossible according to Eccl 7:29 & John 3:16, God created you and I true and upright and whoever believes in Jesus will be saved. That simply shows that nobody is created for hell.

You actually can imagine it because I can, and I am not greater than you.

3nim:


I thought nothing is impossible for God.
Or do you not agree with that statement?

Exactly, that is why He chose to stop "dragging" with man. He is all powerful and He can choose to exercise His power or not. And concerning man, He has said "my Spirit shall not strive with man" Genesis 6:3. Strive means to struggle, so now He makes man and leaves him to make his own choices.

3nim, I get your point: God creates some people to go to hell and others to go to heaven right?

joshnes:
Exactly, that is why He chose to stop "dragging" with man. He is all powerful and He can choose to exercise His power or not. And concerning man, He has said "my Spirit shall not strive with man" Genesis 6:3. Strive means to struggle, so now He makes man and leaves him to make his own choices.

I understand your points. But I've really tried to make you understand mine the way I do.

3nim:


You actually can imagine it because I can, and I am not greater than you.

Your imagination is running wild dear. You chose to imagine that about God, but I can't because the same God has told me He creates men and women true and upright. It is therefore futile to imagine something I have seen and know already.

joshnes:
3nim, I get your point: God creates some people to go to hell and others to go to heaven right?

Not intentionally!



He wants everyone in heaven but he knows that some people will go to hell.

He knows who will choose wrong even before he. Has made that person. So why doesn't who choose to NOT create that person that would go to hell...so that the person won't make the wrong choice and suffer for it?

joshnes:
Your imagination is running wild dear. You chose to imagine that about God, but I can't because the same God has told me He creates men and women true and upright. It is therefore futile to imagine something I have seen and know already.

True and upright but able to make the wrong choices, sin and go to hell?

3nim:



I understand your points. But I've really tried to make you understand mine the way I do.

That you may not be able to do, I don't think I can understand your points THE WAY YOU DO. Your points are inferred from the bible without any explicit back up from the same bible. You say God knows if a person is going to hell or heaven while creating that person, I say no. He creates a person and the person chooses hell or heaven personally. And I backed mine with scriptures too. Your points are in your head not the bible you are referencing and I will have to get in your head or start thinking like you to understand your points THE WAY YOU DO.

3nim:


True and upright but able to make the wrong choices, sin and go to hell?

that is where the freewill comes into play, I gave you the concluding part of that scripture, but for emphasis lemme give you again. "....we are the ones who have messed things up" Eccl 7:29

joshnes:
That you may not be able to do, I don't think I can understand your points THE WAY YOU DO. Your points are inferred from the bible without any explicit back up from the same bible. You say God knows if a person is going to hell or heaven while creating that person, I say no. He creates a person and the person chooses hell or heaven personally. And I backed mine with scriptures too. Your points are in your head not the bible you are referencing and I will have to get in your head or start thinking like you to understand your points THE WAY YOU DO.

I never claimed to get my points from the Bible

First, is the word "ominiscient". It means "all knowing". You agreed that God knows everything.
You really don't need to come into my head to understand.
I don't need the Bible to make my point.

You say God knows if a person is going to hell or heaven while creating that person, I say no

You say "no"?

If God doesn't know that, then he is not ominiscient.

Is he ominiscient? Yes?

Then you're wrong by saying"no". In your statement above.

3nim:


Not intentionally!



He wants everyone in heaven but he knows that some people will go to hell.

He knows who will choose wrong even before he. Has made that person. So why doesn't who choose to NOT create that person that would go to hell...so that the person won't make the wrong choice and suffer for it?

you're contradicting yourself there. If He knows and still goes ahead to create such a person, that sounds intentional to me. He keeps creating because He knows that for every new child born a possibility of one more soul in heaven is made.

3nim:


I never claimed to get my points from the Bible

First, is the word "ominiscient". It means "all knowing". You agreed that God knows everything.
You really don't need to come into my head to understand.
I don't need the Bible to make my point.


You say "no"?

If God doesn't know that, then he is not ominiscient.

Is he ominiscient? Yes?

Then you're wrong by saying"no". In your statement above.

not your points, your references like Job, Adam, Eve etc which helped you make your points. I have answered this before God's omniscience is subjective as pertaining to the human will, even His omnipotence is also subjective to man's will at times. When it comes to man, God creates and hands off until the choice is made.

joshnes:
not your points, your references like Job, Adam, Eve etc which helped you make your points. I have answered this before God's omniscience is subjective as pertaining to the human will, even His omnipotence is also subjective to man's will at times. When it comes to man, God creates and hands off until the choice is made.

I think you've defeated me lol. Because I don't think I can do this anymore

I didn't need Bible scriptures because you already knew the general stories.

God's ominiscience is subjective... you're saying he's not completely ominiscient.
Hands off till the choice is made. No problem. I can agree. but he already knows a person who Will make the wrong choice and is just patiently waiting for the person to make that wrong choice?

3nim:


godisgood200, normally I don't care enough to make comments like this, not even in real life. But because you are so Christian, or Christlike, i mean in comparison to me or any Atheists on Nairaland, I'd love to get the satisfaction of letting you know that a humble man like Jesus might have known when to make a simple apology.
Don't get me wrong, I'd never expect an apology from anyone, especially when this person lacks the holy spirit the way I do. I'm really not that sort of person. But I AM the sort, who'd apologise if she struck the wrong chord and had someone clearly point that out, like I did to you. Even as proud as you say I am.
I just thought bringing up this fact would be a little satisfying for me. You know... letting you know that you can use your words to fight for God but the only thing that actually sets you aside from the atheists is the difference in opinion and beliefs. I wouldn't have expected anything short of an explanation as to why you found something funny and decided to post your laughter.

It doesn't matter who the woman was to me, if you find something funny, you laugh about it.
I think I'm satisfied now

Oh, no. I didn't laugh at you. Pls am so sorry if you felt like i did. Am sorry pls.

godisgood200:

Oh, no. I didn't laugh at you. Pls am so sorry if you felt like i did. Am sorry pls.

And forgive me if I said something you didn't like as well. We can be on neutral or good terms now.

3nim:


And forgive me if I said something you didn't like as well. We can be on neutral or good terms now.

Yeah, by all means.

[quote author=3nim post=63936426]


If I didn't believe, I'd be at Risk. Fear of hell?

You would like me to serve A God I believe was made up by people just because I wouldn't want to burn in hell?
I believe the story of hell was made up as well...to scare people into believing in God.

But I actually do appreciate your concern.

The human heart. That was too general a statement. Not everyone is actually WICKED. Some people could lie, but not be wicked. There are people with real kind hearts. And except murderers, terrorists, ritualists and the likes,. I wouldn't say anyone is wicked enough to deserve eternal torment..burning in hell for eternity. Maybe that punisher is even to much for the terrorists and suicide bombers because they actually believe they are doing the right thing. Maybe that punishment is too much for anyone. But it doesn't mean I support murderers or feel pity for them when caught.
"So proud self-centred, full of wicked imagination-..."still doesn't deserve hell.[/quot you don't understand, God is very righteous in his way and he will judge sin. All have sin even if it is just a little lie but before God it is sin. A sinner is not qualified to live with God. But God has chosen to change the condition of sinners.
You may think a human is good. Remember Jesus said call no man good except God.
A man u said is a good person might be bad to someone else. The law of God is the true test of Hunan goodness and for that all humans have failed woefully.
Everybody deserves hell including me. If God decides to save sinners it is out of his kindness.

3nim:


I think you've defeated me lol. Because I don't think I can do this anymore

I didn't need Bible scriptures because you already knew the general stories.

God's ominiscience is subjective... you're saying he's not completely ominiscient.
Hands off till the choice is made. No problem. I can agree. but he already knows a person who Will make the wrong choice and is just patiently waiting for the person to make that wrong choice?

Not true. What about those who make the right choice and the wrong choice and the right choice again? or vice versa? God creates man, forms a path for the man to follow and leaves the man with the choice to follow or not to follow.