@Comnsense, it would be interesting to hear what heidegger's ideas were, or at least what your understanding of Heidegger's ideas are. Could you give us a brief summary of it?

I am particularly interested in the distinction you make between 'Being' and the 'attributes of personality'. I'm interested because I also see God as not being subjected to the psychological motivations and urges that drive human behaviour, and I want to know if there are parallels between his 'attributes of personality' and what I call psychological motivations.

@ Mr Anony, i have responded to your mail. In order to carry others on the thread along, i would request (as you suggested) that we do a recording and then make available for interested parties to follow your detailed views on the subject.

Cheers.

Deep Sight:
@ Mr Anony, i have responded to your mail. In order to carry others on the thread along, i would request (as you suggested) that we do a recording and then make available for interested parties to follow your detailed views on the subject.

Cheers.

Cool, I've gotten your email. That's fine. Let's discuss tonight at 11.00PM(Nigerian time). I'll look forward to it.

Cheers

Pastor AIO: @Comnsense, it would be interesting to hear what heidegger's ideas were, or at least what your understanding of Heidegger's ideas are. Could you give us a brief summary of it?

I am particularly interested in the distinction you make between 'Being' and the 'attributes of personality'. I'm interested because I also see God as not being subjected to the psychological motivations and urges that drive human behaviour, and I want to know if there are parallels between his 'attributes of personality' and what I call psychological motivations.

Mr Anony, there have been several theories about God, from the practically abstract to a willing, acting being. Heidegger's idea of God (Zein or Sein, memory fails) which he referred to as Being is rather abstract as encompassing all of reality both visible and invisible, and yet separate (as in not simply same as)from natural reality. Being is always becoming, emanating onto natural reality. Confusing? Well, that was Heidegger's trademark. He was careful to stress that Being was void of personality, emotions and or purpose...we should not impose human qualities onto Being. In my opinion, Heidegger's Being was as confusing (dare I say convoluted) as the doctrine of the trinity where the three persons are three separate individual entities, each fully God and yet there is only one God. Any suggestion that the trinity might simply be separate manifestations of one God or the like is heresy. There are three separate persons, each God but one God. This in my view is bull.

Anyway, Heidegger's view of God is quite impersonal, not to mention, confusing. Other might see God as simply a force, the First Cause. But if this God is void of personality, then it is not really 'God', not to be worshipped or to have a relationship with. It is simply an acknowledged non-living force. Some religions tend not to get this distinction trying to go for a God that is in Nature and perhaps is Nature, but when you ask of the attributes of this God, like if it is alive, has a will, a mind, purpose, can plan, influence the world of people, they sometimes say yes. In that case, that God is really a Person hanging about somewhere and interfering with humans and all that talk of Nature is simply pretentious, otherwise, that God is not really 'God' because the idea of a god or deity is mainly down to there being a relationship, one of worship. I mean we can have a relationship with Nature but not the kind of relationship where one expects Nature to directly influence situations in their life, like help them pass an exam say.

Please deepsight:

lets know asap the details of your discussion

Oh sorry, with regard, to the second part of your question, it is very interesting that you mention psychological motivations because I think that it wasn't God that created humans in his image and likeness, it was the other way round. Humans have long engaged the question of the origin of all things and having decided that it must have started with a force that was itself uncaused (as you cannot have an infinite regress) they proceeded to give this force attributes. We are imaginative beings and because we are purposeful beings as well, we tend to see purpose in everything around us especially in Nature. Therefore the first cause must have had a purpose in mind to cause the universe and nature. That was where it began, the first cause was imbued with purpose and mind, next came will, emotions, likes and dislikes, rules, laws, favourite humans, messengers, son, sacrifice and so on. This is why our religions and their doctrines, especially, Christianity is largely anthropomorphic. It is a reflection of our own human lives and society...so we have a king and leader who sits on the throne (like most human societies). He has a son or prince who would succeed his dad and with his dad, gives us laws. If we disobey, we end up in prison (hell) except Catholics made it one better; if we have committed a minor offence, we go in temporarily (Purgatory) but major offences carry a life term (hell).

comnsense: Oh sorry, with regard, to the second part of your question, it is very interesting that you mention psychological motivations because I think that it wasn't God that created humans in his image and likeness, it was the other way round. Humans have long engaged the question of the origin of all things and having decided that it must have started with a force that was itself uncaused (as you cannot have an infinite regress) they proceeded to give this force attributes. We are imaginative beings and because we are purposeful beings as well, we tend to see purpose in everything around us especially in Nature. Therefore the first cause must have had a purpose in mind to cause the universe and nature. That was where it began, the first cause was imbued with purpose and mind, next came will, emotions, likes and dislikes, rules, laws, favourite humans, messengers, son, sacrifice and so on. This is why our religions and their doctrines, especially, Christianity is largely anthropomorphic. It is a reflection of our own human lives and society...so we have a king and leader who sits on the throne (like most human societies). He has a son or prince who would succeed his dad and with his dad, gives us laws. If we disobey, we end up in prison (hell) except Catholics made it one better; if we have committed a minor offence, we go in temporarily (Purgatory) but major offences carry a life term (hell).

lol.............

comnsense: Oh sorry, with regard, to the second part of your question, it is very interesting that you mention psychological motivations because I think that it wasn't God that created humans in his image and likeness, it was the other way round. Humans have long engaged the question of the origin of all things and having decided that it must have started with a force that was itself uncaused (as you cannot have an infinite regress) they proceeded to give this force attributes. We are imaginative beings and because we are purposeful beings as well, we tend to see purpose in everything around us especially in Nature. Therefore the first cause must have had a purpose in mind to cause the universe and nature. That was where it began, the first cause was imbued with purpose and mind, next came will, emotions, likes and dislikes, rules, laws, favourite humans, messengers, son, sacrifice and so on. This is why our religions and their doctrines, especially, Christianity is largely anthropomorphic. It is a reflection of our own human lives and society...so we have a king and leader who sits on the throne (like most human societies). He has a son or prince who would succeed his dad and with his dad, gives us laws. If we disobey, we end up in prison (hell) except Catholics made it one better; if we have committed a minor offence, we go in temporarily (Purgatory) but major offences carry a life term (hell).

that is why i cant see a purpose for this your post. And since i dont know you i dont want to add that there is a purpose to your life like humans always does.

So all you have written and your life is purposeless.

comnsense: Oh sorry, with regard, to the second part of your question, it is very interesting that you mention psychological motivations because I think that it wasn't God that created humans in his image and likeness, it was the other way round. Humans have long engaged the question of the origin of all things and having decided that it must have started with a force that was itself uncaused (as you cannot have an infinite regress) they proceeded to give this force attributes. We are imaginative beings and because we are purposeful beings as well, we tend to see purpose in everything around us especially in Nature. Therefore the first cause must have had a purpose in mind to cause the universe and nature. That was where it began, the first cause was imbued with purpose and mind, next came will, emotions, likes and dislikes, rules, laws, favourite humans, messengers, son, sacrifice and so on. This is why our religions and their doctrines, especially, Christianity is largely anthropomorphic. It is a reflection of our own human lives and society...so we have a king and leader who sits on the throne (like most human societies). He has a son or prince who would succeed his dad and with his dad, gives us laws. If we disobey, we end up in prison (hell) except Catholics made it one better; if we have committed a minor offence, we go in temporarily (Purgatory) but major offences carry a life term (hell).

that is why i cant see a purpose for this your post. And since i dont know you i dont want to add that there is a purpose to your life like humans always does.

So all you have written and your life is purposeless.

truthislight:

that is why i cant see a purpose for this your post. And since i dont know you i dont want to add that there is a purpose to your life like humans always does.

So all you have written and your life is purposeless.

Well, if you can't see a purpose for my post, then you are either finding it difficult to understand what I've broken down in simple terms or you have shut your mind to learning anything other than what you believe in.
As to there being no purpose to my life, you may have meant that as an insult, but in some way, you are right. My life in itself is purposeless. I wasn't born or created with a purpose in the mind of any 'creator' as you believers would believe. I am an absolutely contingent being - that is I am just as much as I may not have been. I didn't have to be. I am simply the sperm that got to an egg first (And so are you my friend).
However, now I am here, it is up to me to imbue my existence with purpose, to lace my actions with intentions towards a goal. I make my own purpose; I give my life its purpose.

comnsense:

Well, if you can't see a purpose for my post, then you are either finding it difficult to understand what I've broken down in simple terms or you have shut your mind to learning anything other than what you believe in.
As to there being no purpose to my life, you may have meant that as an insult, but in some way, you are right. My life in itself is purposeless. I wasn't born or created with a purpose in the mind of any 'creator' as you believers would believe. I am an absolutely contingent being - that is I am just as much as I may not have been. I didn't have to be. I am simply the sperm that got to an egg first (And so are you my friend).
However, now I am here, it is up to me to imbue my existence with purpose, to lace my actions with intentions towards a goal. I make my own purpose; I give my life its purpose.

the very great claims of an atheist u just cant hate it....

comnsense:

Well, if you can't see a purpose for my post, then you are either finding it difficult to understand what I've broken down in simple terms or you have shut your mind to learning anything other than what you believe in.
As to there being no purpose to my life, you may have meant that as an insult, but in some way, you are right. My life in itself is purposeless. I wasn't born or created with a purpose in the mind of any 'creator' as you believers would believe. I am an absolutely contingent being - that is I am just as much as I may not have been. I didn't have to be. I am simply the sperm that got to an egg first (And so are you my friend).
However, now I am here, it is up to me to imbue my existence with purpose, to lace my actions with intentions towards a goal. I make my own purpose; I give my life its purpose.

Nope, no insult meant.

Am just trying to be a human that does not attached a purpose to every thing just like you have suggested we should not sir.

comnsense:

Well, if you can't see a purpose for my post, then you are either finding it difficult to understand what I've broken down in simple terms or you have shut your mind to learning anything other than what you believe in.
As to there being no purpose to my life, you may have meant that as an insult, but in some way, you are right. My life in itself is purposeless. I wasn't born or created with a purpose in the mind of any 'creator' as you believers would believe. I am an absolutely contingent being - that is I am just as much as I may not have been. I didn't have to be. I am simply the sperm that got to an egg first (And so are you my friend).
However, now I am here, it is up to me to imbue my existence with purpose, to lace my actions with intentions towards a goal. I make my own purpose; I give my life its purpose.

Nope, no insult meant.

Am just trying to be a human that does not attached a purpose to every thing just like you have suggested we should not sir.

Good sir, if you will, do you see a resolution to the problem of evil?

wiegraf: Good sir, if you will, do you see a resolution to the problem of evil?

Lol, perhaps you may want to clarify for me what the problem of evil is so that i can answer you appropriately.

Mr_Anony:
Lol, perhaps you may want to clarify for me what the problem of evil is so that i can answer you appropriately.

Going with the abrahamic religions, though the abrahamic religions aren't the only ones to propose this, god created everything in the universe including what he/it etc has claimed is evil. Said god is also purportedly omnipotent, omniscient (these are impossible, but we can leave this for another day) and omnibenovelent. How could a 'kind' god create evil?

Bonus: To make matters worse, he punishes those who he has arbitrarily and irrationally declared as evil in a particularly cruel fashion for eternity. This despite the fact that they were only following his orders. The only way this behavior could be excused were if he were not omniscient/omnipotent, or if he were 'evil'. Consider, for instance, the now infamous in secular culture 'hardening the heart' of the pharaoh. In essence, he sets up people to fail (as it's all his will) then punishes them.

Even when I watch someone playing say gta wantonly kill random AI I feel the need to stop him, talk less of real people.

wiegraf:

Going with the abrahamic religions, though the abrahamic religions aren't the only ones to propose this, god created everything in the universe including what he/it etc has claimed is evil. Said god is also purportedly omnipotent, omniscient (these are impossible, but we can leave this for another day) and omnibenovelent. How could a 'kind' god create evil?

Bonus: To make matters worse, he punishes those who he has arbitrarily and irrationally declared as evil in a particularly cruel fashion for eternity. This despite the fact that they were only following his orders. The only way this behavior could be excused were if he were not omniscient/omnipotent, or if he were 'evil'. Consider, for instance, the now infamous in secular culture 'hardening the heart' of the pharaoh. In essence, he sets up people to fail (as it's all his will) then punishes them.

Even when I watch someone playing say gta wantonly kill random AI I feel the need to stop him, talk less of real people.

Small misconception here: For starters, God did not create evil. God created a good world. Evil is the damage. It is like when a potter makes cup if it breaks, you don't blame the potter for creating cracks in the cup.

For your bonus question about God hardening Pharaoh's heart, I can give you an answer but we'll fly off on a tangent so I won't. If you are willing, you can check out Romans chapter 1.

Back to the issue: If God is good, why evil?
Well, since we now know that God did not create evil, the question now is: What is God doing about it? Do you agree?

nuclearboy: Please deepsight:

lets know asap the details of your discussion

I should inform the house that Mr. Anony and myself infact had this telephone conversation: we recorded it: regrettably the recording was bad and as such most of it was lost and could not be posted. I will try to reach Mr. Anony for a re-do.

Pretty sad as he made some profound arguments in that session.

Mr_Anony:
Small misconception here: For starters, God did not create evil. God created a good world. Evil is the damage. It is like when a potter makes cup if it breaks, you don't blame the potter for creating cracks in the cup.

Another lie. . .Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

mazaje:

Another lie. . .Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Lol, I hope you do realize that the evil we are discussing here is moral evil. The evil described in Isaiah on the other hand is not moral evil but physical calamity and natural disaster.

@DeepSight, long time. How you dey?

Mr_Anony:

@DeepSight, long time. How you dey?

I dey o, when shall we attempt a re-take of that conversation. Don't worry, I won't bungle the recording this time.

mazaje:

Another lie. . .Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Mr_Anony:
Lol, I hope you do realize that the evil we are discussing here is moral evil. The evil described in Isaiah on the other hand is not moral evil but physical calamity and natural disaster.

Might not apply, but I remembered this verse

1 Samuel 16
14 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him.

Deep Sight:

I dey o, when shall we attempt a re-take of that conversation. Don't worry, I won't bungle the recording this time.

Any time you want really, just give me a heads up a few days prior

jayriginal:
Might not apply, but I remembered this verse

The question is: Did God make the spirit evil?

Mr_Anony:
The question is: Did God make the spirit evil?

Well, it said "from the lord."
What are we to make of that ?

EDIT:
Plus god made all things (supposedly).

jayriginal:

Well, it said "from the lord."
What are we to make of that ?

EDIT:
Plus god made all things (supposedly).

Yes, but you miss out the part that tells us that after God made everything, He saw it was Good.
You miss the part where somewhere along the line, the lucifer and some angels became evil.
This does not stop God from using them The same way when God uses sinful man, it doesn't automatically mean that God made the man evil.

Mr_Anony:
Lol, I hope you do realize that the evil we are discussing here is moral evil. The evil described in Isaiah on the other hand is not moral evil but physical calamity and natural disaster.

And it says natural disasters in which part of the passage?. . .Arguing from silence and making your own conspiracies no?

mazaje:


And it says natural disasters in which part of the passage?. . .Arguing from silence and making your own conspiracies no?

Nope, a number of other versions render it as "calamity" instead of "evil"

Mr_Anony:
Yes, but you miss out the part that tells us that after God made everything, He saw it was Good.
You miss the part where somewhere along the line, the lucifer and some angels became evil.
This does not stop God from using them The same way when God uses sinful man, it doesn't automatically mean that God made the man evil.

then who created evil? lucifer?

Mr_Anony:
Yes, but you miss out the part that tells us that after God made everything, He saw it was Good.
You miss the part where somewhere along the line, the lucifer and some angels became evil.
This does not stop God from using them The same way when God uses sinful man, it doesn't automatically mean that God made the man evil.

Yeah, the fall of man and all that jazz.

Its ok. I dont want a drawn out argument, I just remembered that verse and though, I dont agree with you, its clear you will stick to your guns. No need for a stalemate.

Mr_Anony:
Nope, a number of other versions render it as "calamity" instead of "evil"

Evil and calamity have different meanings. . .One of the definition of evil is "morally wrong" or "bad". . .Even your "word" of god can not have clear meanings and is open to various interpretations and translations. . .so much for the "word" of god. . . .

Mr_Anony:
Yes, but you miss out the part that tells us that after God made everything, He saw it was Good.
You miss the part where somewhere along the line, the lucifer and some angels became evil.
This does not stop God from using them The same way when God uses sinful man, it doesn't automatically mean that God made the man evil.

So lucifer created evil?. . .I thought god created everything?. . .even the bible talked about god hardening people's heart(I wonder how you can harden a person's heart ). . . .God did not create evil but then he has his own evil spirits?. . .What are we to make of it?

mazaje:

Evil and calamity have different meanings. . .One of the definition of evil is "morally wrong" or "bad". . .Even your "word" of god can not have clear meanings and is open to various interpretations and translations. . .so much for the "word" of god. . . .

lol, you read the bible, you misinterpret it. but instead of seeking the correct interpretation, strangely the bible is at fault for not dumbing itself down for you...........funny guy you are.

Mr_Anony:
lol, you read the bible, you misinterpret it. but instead of seeking the correct interpretation, strangely the bible is at fault for not dumbing itself down for you...........funny guy you are.

And the correct interpretation is?. . .The same bible talks about evil spirits from god. . .And we are told that all things come from god, no?