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Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by MrAnony2: 10:13am On Aug 11, 2012 |
plaetton: Mr Anony, there is no denying that you are a man of faith. Fine for you. Your beleif in the bible is a matter of faith. Is it not?. Again fine for you.Yes, good for me. Here is the big problem and the big folly of people of faith.The thing you fail to realize is that I hold that faith must be rational and is not true faith when it is devoid of reason. Arguing against an entire academic and historical and theological establishment? It matters not who I argue against. The point is that one of us must be true and the other false or both of us be false. besides you haven't really cited proper notable academics/historians/theologians. You accept everything written in the bible, that is fine. No can take that from you. But to insist ,on a public domain, that they are true, consistent and of devine source is just folly, just to use a generous word.To insist that they are not is equally folly to me. . . .and so far you have not done a good job in showing why the bible isn't true. |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by MrAnony1(m): 10:18am On Aug 11, 2012 |
It will interest you to know that amongst other things, this is what Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld y de la Torre says about himself when writing his author background : I present myself as "an amateur bible scholar," not having ANY formal education in Bible studies beyond a general Intro to "History of Western Civilization 101" in college. What I know is ALL "self-taught." The "bible scholar" you presented claims himself not to have any formal bible education and yet you expect us to take him seriously you even go as far as interpreting his stance as the position held by most theologians? It is also funny how someone can claim in the same sentence that a story is a copy and at the same time complete opposite of another story. This is exactly what your favourite bible scholar De la Torre does when he says: "I believe Lambert's observation can be applied to the Hebrews who were combining old themes and putting "new twists" to old ideas. My research indicates that, at times, "reversals" are occurring in the Hebrew transformation and re-interpretation of the Mesopotamian myths. These "reversals," as I call them, can take the form of different characters, different locations for the settings of the stories, and different morals being drawn about the nature of God and Man's relationship." To me this is just a roundabout way of saying: "The stories are totally different but since I must look for relationships that I really cannot find, I'll just say that the Hebrews first copied these stories then told a completely different story from the one they copied....and of course that's plagiarism. What else would you call it?" I'm sorry Plaetton but your "theologian" is nothing better than a conspiracy theorist |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by MrAnony1(m): 10:19am On Aug 11, 2012 |
Comparison of Genesis' first Creation Story with Enuma Elish, a Babylonian creation storyI have posted the two documents above in their raw form. Now be so kind as to highlight these many points of similarity that you have been talking about. According to liberal theologians, the Babylonian account of creation was written in the 12th century BCE, centuries earlier than the Biblical account. According to conservative Christian theologians, the opposite happened: the Babylonian account was written after the Biblical account.You do realize that "liberal theologians" is a very suspect phrase and could mean anybody who has read the bible to any degree. I hope you are never treated by a "liberal doctor" |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by cyrexx: 10:54am On Aug 11, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: its obvious you dont know the meaning of brainwashing or you deliberately choose to purposely twist the meaning of that word, like you always do when you are cornered. i dont want to call you dishonest but what you did here is a big disappointment from you and i hold you in such a high esteem. so, the person who called you "artful dodger" may not be wrong afterall. i dont know when "referencing" and "researching" begin to have the same meaning as "brainwashing". |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by Nobody: 10:57am On Aug 11, 2012 |
You are far better suited for this guy and this argument, my brother @Mr Anony. I think I'll retreat to the sides and just watch you shred him (oh yeah, that's what you're doing o lol). It's far more fun watching you than dealing with him myself ![]() |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by cyrexx: 11:00am On Aug 11, 2012 |
^^^ far better suited? i dont understand, sir are you referring to me |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by MrAnony1(m): 11:04am On Aug 11, 2012 |
plaetton:Of course it isn't but then since you have already started "educating" me on it. Why suddenly realize that it isn't your responsibility? Yes, the more than 300 references to other gods in the bible can no longer be found because, the human editors [/b]of the [b]infallible and perfect word of god found them too embarrassing, so they simply edited them out by using the words "God", the "lord", "Lord almighty". Like I said, if you read the preface to your bible, these things are explained in simple language.This is absolute rubbish. You are like the child who was told to draw a goat eating grass and when he couldn't, he submitted a blank paper saying that the goat he had drawn had eaten the grass and walked away. The Summerian cuiniform tablets and their translations are available for all to study. There are no ambiguities or controveresies about what they say or that they predate the old testament chronicles by thousands of years.I have posted above one of such ancient Summerian texts that has no "ambiguities or controversies" about the creation of man The ancient hebrews, while in Babylon, simply copied and transposed their own chief god, and viola! we have the bible.....says Mr De la Torre the self-taught theologian. Perhaps I should teach myself law and proceed to defend you in court. I'm sure you would like that. Even the pope, the bonafide head of your faith, tacitly agrees with this in the arcticle to which I posted links.You linked me to a very long article, perhaps you may want to link me to specific quotes I can work with. Besides, the pope is not the head of my faith, Christ is the head of my faith. N:BYou do realize that psalms are songs and not literal statements don't you? Let me sing you a song we sing in Nigerian churches today: Jesus na you be oga Jesus na you be oga Every other god na so so yeye Every other god na so so yeye What does this tell you? Does it mean that Jesus is literally surrounded by a council of foolish gods of which he is their boss ordering them around? The fact that this is what the psalm tells you shows me that your your understanding is heavily tainted by your unfounded biases You my friend are a terrible fanatic who is very happy to disregard proof when it doesn't suit his bias. It makes me laugh when you tell me that my faith devoid of reason while you post assertions that you have not been careful enough to investigate yourself. I have been charitable enough to follow your links and try to really understand the point you are trying to make and all I have found is lies and a terrible pretense at reasoning. In fact if anyone has blind faith on this thread, it is you. |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by MrAnony1(m): 11:08am On Aug 11, 2012 |
cyrexx: Oh keep quiet my friend. What has "artful dodging" got to do with posting the text you claim to be "referencing and researching" here for all to see? |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by Nobody: 11:11am On Aug 11, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: Word, bro. ![]() @cyrexx, I was addressing my brother, Mr Anony, not you. And the guy I was refering to was Plaetton. |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by cyrexx: 11:13am On Aug 11, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: no, you are the one who should keep quiet. you asked for comparison of the two creation story. i provided you a detailed comparison, you cant deal with it and you are here talking like this.. if you read the comparison and you dont like what you see, you should be the one to keep quiet, not me. |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by MrAnony1(m): 11:13am On Aug 11, 2012 |
Ihedinobi: You are far better suited for this guy and this argument, my brother @Mr Anony. I think I'll retreat to the sides and just watch you shred him (oh yeah, that's what you're doing o lol). It's far more fun watching you than dealing with him myselfLol, don't mind the guy. He probably thought that that I would be too lazy to actually look up his links. Anyway sha, let us give him the benefit of doubt. Let him come and point to us these so called similarities in the texts. cyrexx: ^^^ I think he was referring to plaetton. |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by Enigma(m): 11:14am On Aug 11, 2012 |
Mee234: One of the problems of anti-bible people(muslems inclusive) is that is that they pick one verse start treating that verse in isolation. Or they will goute some absure historical work to support their clame. Thanks mr Anony for your post on those two books for all to read. The way that guy was sounding about the similarity between both books you will think they were copy from each other. He is just a fraud like the rest of them It was mere copy and paste; in fact it was plagiarism since there was no acknowledgment or indication given that it was copy and paste.* And this is what the guy being relied upon said about himself:* I present myself as "an amateur bible scholar," not having ANY formal education in Bible studies beyond a general Intro to "History of Western Civilization 101" in college. What I know is ALL "self-taught." * Links removed because of spam bot but can be easily found by googling. ![]() |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by cyrexx: 11:15am On Aug 11, 2012 |
Ihedinobi: thanks for clarifying. enjoy. ![]() |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by MrAnony1(m): 11:17am On Aug 11, 2012 |
cyrexx: What comparison? where? please enuma elish is on this thread, all you have to do is re-quote it here and highlight all the places that it is similar with genesis so that everyone can see. Don't link us to yet another bogus website. |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by MrAnony1(m): 11:19am On Aug 11, 2012 |
Enigma:lol, I see you looked up De la Torre too. The spambot also banned me for those links |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by Enigma(m): 12:23pm On Aug 11, 2012 |
(edited and adapted and broken into parts to avoid post being hidden again) 1. This is what the vaunted Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld y de la Torre says about himself I present myself as "an amateur bible scholar," not having ANY formal education in Bible studies beyond a general Intro to "History of Western Civilization 101" in college. What I know is ALL "self-taught." Of course there are proper experts as well as proper scholarship in these matters. 2. The debate on the dating of the Enuma Elis vis a vis Genesis is not really settled. 3. It does not matter anyway as it is not a big deal that similar motifs (NB in this case not accounts, not stories; and note point 4 below) are found in different and sometimes even far flung places. In this particular case, the geography is of a relatively small area anyway. 4. Those who harp on about similarities between things like the Enuma Elis and e.g. Genesis of course fail to point out the dissimilarities and that in most cases the dissimilarities far outweigh the similarities. |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by Enigma(m): 12:25pm On Aug 11, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: If some of these people say 'good morning', it is advisable to check your watch/clock and to look outside. ![]() |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by cyrexx: 12:33pm On Aug 11, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: so it is automatically judged as a "bogus website" because it show how Sumerian creation myth influenced Genesis creation myth. hmmm. ![]() |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by Enigma(m): 1:40pm On Aug 11, 2012 |
'I've started so I'll finish' ![]() ![]() 4 contd Even Wikipedia which is not exactly a friend of Christianity says (inter alia - I had to shorten quote considerably because of posts getting hidden and all that): The similarities are scant, however, and the strongest resemblance can be found in the etymology of "in the beginning" and "when on high." . . . 5. Even the section of Wikipedia from which the line above is quoted gives sufficient indication of the difference between the revelation recorded in Genesis and whatever "similar" motifs or even stories may have existed elsewhere. 6. For examples of proper and more rigorous scholarship on the topic, look for e.g. Millard, "New Babylonian 'Genesis' Story" and/or also Waltke, "The Creation Account in Genesis 1:1-3 Part IV: The Theology of Genesis 1", Weeks, " The Hermeneutical Problem of Genesis 1-11" A more simplistic and less rigorous piece but still helpful on the contrast is one by Wellman on the CARM website. 7. There are a number of these things that some people like to point to e.g. expect at some point to hear (further) about The Epic of Gilgamesh, Adam Kadmon etc etc 8. The one thing to always bear in mind is whether one is being presented with a jaundiced view or a view that is truly knowledgeable on the scholarship. ![]() ![]() |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by Enigma(m): 2:39pm On Aug 11, 2012 |
Ah, going back to Job for a minute reminds me of a Yoruba play years ago about a chap who suffered great injustice though in his case because of the actions of men and women rather than of "gods" before also being vindicated eventually. Possibly, someone (Joagbaje maybe?) would reognise it from this song. Agiriaṣaṣa ma binu, otitọ inu ti gbe ọ ga, otitọ inu ti gbe'ja rẹ; ma mikan iwọ l'a gb'ade fun (or iwọ la gb'ojule) ![]() |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by MrAnony1(m): 2:43pm On Aug 11, 2012 |
cyrexx:Are you serious?? Cyrexx, this is the first time I'm knowing you to be dishonest and willfully ignorant. There are websites claiming all sorts of things and you know it. Any id[i]i[/i]ot can set up a website and say anything. You are the ones claiming that Enuma Elish is similar to Genesis. I have been sincere enough to post them both side by side on this thread, all I have asked you to do is to highlight these similarities for us. If they are glaring as you say, then they shouldn't be difficult to point out. Not so? If you can't point them out, why don't you just admit that you were wrong about this issue and then we can move on....or you can highlight the similarities and then you'll be right and we won't have to argue any more. You are the one who keeps saying that religious people never admit that they are wrong. Obviously, you are not religious now, or are you? |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by MrAnony1(m): 3:03pm On Aug 11, 2012 |
diluminati: @plaettonHow charming.....plaetton has got himself a groupie. You guys have corrupted the meaning of phrases like[i] common sense, reasoning ability[/i] and reasoning faculty |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by plaetton: 11:22pm On Aug 11, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: Hurray for me. Dont be jealous, You have your own groupie. ![]() |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by MrAnony1(m): 3:45am On Aug 12, 2012 |
plaetton: Heyy, there he is!! We've been waiting for you to come and show us those "similarities" you have been talking about. .....by the way, I don't have groupies but I am happy for you sha. |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by plaetton: 1:46pm On Aug 12, 2012 |
Mr_Anony: oh really? Quite frankly, you wear me out. It is actually folly for me to argue with faith. Faith can twist anything to suite its pre-determined conclusions. I do understand that. I have gone as far as I could to illustrate my points. The enuma elish is there for all to see. I'm quite sure you were not familair with it until this topic and all you know so far are tiny parts of the web commentaries that you deem favourable to your beliefs. If you have a genuine interests on the subject, then spend time to read up on AttraHasis, another part the texts from the same summerian sources. There, the creation epic is more detailed,with Adama or adapa being fashioned in the EDIN. Am sure you say that Adama and edin are not similarities as well. The tower of babel incident and the flood are told in detail as well in the Attrahasis . Read them and still maintain there are not similarites, or even better, you can tell yourself that your bible was written before the summerians copied it[b](Forgetting , ofcourse, that your biblical patriarch, Abraham, came from Ur, the capital of Summer)[/b]. Believe whatever suites your nerves. Anyway, I do not wish to comment any further on this topic. You can claim victory if it suites you. Good day. See you in another thread. |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by MrAnony1(m): 3:40pm On Aug 12, 2012 |
plaetton:Dude, stop it. Your dishonesty is beginning to show. You said that the Enuma Elish bears the closest resemblance to Genesis 1. I went on to paste a copy of the Enuma Elish on this thread for you to point out the similarities for us all to see. Instead of admitting that you were mistaken, you shamelessly accuse me of twisting things. It is not about "victory" in argument, It is about exposing lies and poor logic. |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by Enigma(m): 5:56am On Aug 13, 2012 |
^^^ It's all bluff. Now it is the Atra-Hasis. Meanwhile one of the leading scholars (indeed, arguably the leading scholar) on the Atra-Hasis and in fact who is chiefly responsible for translating it to English is a Christian i.e. the same Millard one of whose articles I cited in relation to the Enuma Elis earlier. ![]() ![]() PS Remember I said there are a few of these things that these people like to shout about; so now with the Atra-Hasis, we can tick the Epic of Gilgamesh that I mentioned. So next, Adam Kadmon? ![]() |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by PastorAIO: 10:00am On Aug 13, 2012 |
Enigma: ^^^ It's all bluff. Now it is the Atra-Hasis. Meanwhile one of the leading scholars (indeed, arguably the leading scholar) on the Atra-Hasis and in fact who is chiefly responsible for translating it to English is a Christian i.e. the same Millard one of whose articles I cited in relation to the Enuma Elis earlier. I'm curious about how you want to fit Adam Kadmon into this, or how you expect it to be fitted. |
Re: Weird Facts In The Book Of Job by Enigma(m): 10:20am On Aug 13, 2012 |
^^^ You sure you got the right person after this? https://www.nairaland.com/770438/idea-god/2#11347151 ![]() ![]() |
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