plaetton: Mr Anony, there is no denying that you are a man of faith. Fine for you. Your beleif in the bible is a matter of faith. Is it not?. Again fine for you.

Yes, good for me.

Here is the big problem and the big folly of people of faith.
Do not come out in public and try to argue faith with reason. It does not work.
Right now, you ar enot only arguing with me , but you are against an entire academic and historical and theological estalishment.
Stop and take a breath and re-affirm your faith. That is all you have and that is all it is about.

The thing you fail to realize is that I hold that faith must be rational and is not true faith when it is devoid of reason.
Arguing against an entire academic and historical and theological establishment? It matters not who I argue against. The point is that one of us must be true and the other false or both of us be false. besides you haven't really cited proper notable academics/historians/theologians.

You accept everything written in the bible, that is fine. No can take that from you. But to insist ,on a public domain, that they are true, consistent and of devine source is just folly, just to use a generous word.

To insist that they are not is equally folly to me. . . .and so far you have not done a good job in showing why the bible isn't true.

Evolution vs. creationism. Bible topics & stories.

Comparing two creation stories: from
Genesis and Babylonian pagan sources


Creation stories from the ancient Middle East:

Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld y de la Torre writes that one of his articles:

"... is an attempt to briefly identify some of the Ancient Near Eastern Motifs and Myths from which the Hebrews apparently borrowed, adapted, and reworked in the Book of Genesis (more specifically Genesis 1-11).

It is my understanding that Genesis' motifs and characters, God, Adam, Eve, the Serpent, and Noah, are adaptations and transformations of characters and events occurring in earlier Near Eastern Myths. In some cases several characters and motifs from different myths have been brought together and amalgamated into Genesis' stories. 2

He quotes W.G. Lambert:

"The authors of ancient cosmologies were essentially compilers. Their originality was expressed in new combinations of old themes, and in new twists to old ideas."

I believe Lambert's observation can be applied to the Hebrews who were combining old themes and putting "new twists" to old ideas. My research indicates that, at times, "reversals" are occurring in the Hebrew transformation and re-interpretation of the Mesopotamian myths. These "reversals," as I call them, can take the form of different characters, different locations for the settings of the stories, and different morals being drawn about the nature of God and Man's relationship.

De la Torre concludes that Genesis 1-11:

"... appears to be a reformatting of motifs and characters from four Mesopotamian myths:

Adapa and the South Wind,

Atrahasis,

the Epic of Gilgamesh and

the Enuma Elish."
Of these four sources, Enuma Elish has the closest parallels with the first creation story in Genesis.

Wikipedia comments that the ancient Hebrews did not simply adopt the Babylonian myths; they sometimes inverted them in order to fit into their worldview. Two examples are: 3

In the Babylonian myth, the serpent, Ningishzida, is a friend to Adapa who helps him in his search for immortality.

In Genesis, the serpent is the enemy of Adam, trying to trick him out of the chance to understand good and evil by developing a moral sense and thus becoming fully human.

The gods of the Babylonians became the ancient Israelites' god.
Also:

The Mesopotamians had adopted a worldview in which the Earth had gradually improved since creation.

The ancient Hebrews adopted a worldview in which the universe was created perfect but degenerated to the point where God had to initiate the largest genocide in history -- killing every person from newborn to the elderly in the flood of Noah.

It will interest you to know that amongst other things, this is what Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld y de la Torre says about himself when writing his author background :

I present myself as "an amateur bible scholar," not having ANY formal education in Bible studies beyond a general Intro to "History of Western Civilization 101" in college. What I know is ALL "self-taught."

The "bible scholar" you presented claims himself not to have any formal bible education and yet you expect us to take him seriously you even go as far as interpreting his stance as the position held by most theologians?

It is also funny how someone can claim in the same sentence that a story is a copy and at the same time complete opposite of another story. This is exactly what your favourite bible scholar De la Torre does when he says:

"I believe Lambert's observation can be applied to the Hebrews who were combining old themes and putting "new twists" to old ideas. My research indicates that, at times, "reversals" are occurring in the Hebrew transformation and re-interpretation of the Mesopotamian myths. These "reversals," as I call them, can take the form of different characters, different locations for the settings of the stories, and different morals being drawn about the nature of God and Man's relationship."

To me this is just a roundabout way of saying:
"The stories are totally different but since I must look for relationships that I really cannot find, I'll just say that the Hebrews first copied these stories then told a completely different story from the one they copied....and of course that's plagiarism. What else would you call it?"

I'm sorry Plaetton but your "theologian" is nothing better than a conspiracy theorist

Comparison of Genesis' first Creation Story with Enuma Elish, a Babylonian creation story

The Babylonian creation story is called by its first two words "Enuma Elish." According to archaeologists, it was originally written circa 1120 BCE. It was discovered in 1875 CE. It bears many points of similarity to the first creation story in the Bible: 1

Item Ancient Israelite Creation Story Babylonian Creation Story
Source Genesis 1:1 to 2:3 Enuma Elish
Date of writing (liberal belief) 8th or 9th century BCE Late 12th century BCE
Date of writing (conservative belief) 13th century BCE, the time of Moses Late 12th century BCE.
Author (liberal belief) "P," authors of the Priestly tradition. Unknown.
Author (conservative belief) Moses. Unknown.
Creator(s) of the universe A single God, YHVH. A God battling a Goddess.
Initial state of the earth Desolate waste; covered in darkness. Chaos; enveloped in darkness.
First development Light created. Light created.
Next development Firmament created - a rigid dome over the earth separating the earth and heaven. Firmament created; also perceived as a rigid dome.
Next development Dry land created. Dry land created.
Next development Sun, moon, stars created. Sun, moon, stars created.
Next development Creation of men and women. Creation of men and women.
Final development God rests and sanctify the Sabbath. Gods rest and celebrate.
The many points of similarity between the two traditions is conclusive proof that one story was derived from the other (or that both were derived from a still older original).

I have posted the two documents above in their raw form. Now be so kind as to highlight these many points of similarity that you have been talking about.

According to liberal theologians, the Babylonian account of creation was written in the 12th century BCE, centuries earlier than the Biblical account. According to conservative Christian theologians, the opposite happened: the Babylonian account was written after the Biblical account.

You do realize that "liberal theologians" is a very suspect phrase and could mean anybody who has read the bible to any degree. I hope you are never treated by a "liberal doctor"

Mr_Anony:
Don't show me a website, I have posted the texts here. Show me from the text themselves.

It is funny how you like to say that Christians are brainwashed and only repeat what they have been spoon fed by their pastors but here you are pointing me to your "pastors" website while I am holding the text in front of you.

Why is it that you resist "brainwashing" but happily choose to be brainwashed and spoon fed whenever it is an anti-bible stance?

its obvious you dont know the meaning of brainwashing or you deliberately choose to purposely twist the meaning of that word, like you always do when you are cornered. i dont want to call you dishonest but what you did here is a big disappointment from you and i hold you in such a high esteem. so, the person who called you "artful dodger" may not be wrong afterall. i dont know when "referencing" and "researching" begin to have the same meaning as "brainwashing".

You are far better suited for this guy and this argument, my brother @Mr Anony. I think I'll retreat to the sides and just watch you shred him (oh yeah, that's what you're doing o lol). It's far more fun watching you than dealing with him myself

^^^

far better suited?

i dont understand, sir

are you referring to me

plaetton:

It is not my responsiblity to educate you about the history of your religion.

Of course it isn't but then since you have already started "educating" me on it. Why suddenly realize that it isn't your responsibility?

Yes, the more than 300 references to other gods in the bible can no longer be found because, the human editors [/b]of the [b]infallible and perfect word of god found them too embarrassing, so they simply edited them out by using the words "God", the "lord", "Lord almighty". Like I said, if you read the preface to your bible, these things are explained in simple language.

This is absolute rubbish. You are like the child who was told to draw a goat eating grass and when he couldn't, he submitted a blank paper saying that the goat he had drawn had eaten the grass and walked away.

The Summerian cuiniform tablets and their translations are available for all to study. There are no ambiguities or controveresies about what they say or that they predate the old testament chronicles by thousands of years.
Creation of man, tower of babylon, Noah's flood, its all there in summerian tablets.

I have posted above one of such ancient Summerian texts that has no "ambiguities or controversies" about the creation of man

The ancient hebrews, while in Babylon, simply copied and transposed their own chief god, and viola! we have the bible.

....says Mr De la Torre the self-taught theologian.
Perhaps I should teach myself law and proceed to defend you in court. I'm sure you would like that.

Even the pope, the bonafide head of your faith, tacitly agrees with this in the arcticle to which I posted links.

You linked me to a very long article, perhaps you may want to link me to specific quotes I can work with. Besides, the pope is not the head of my faith, Christ is the head of my faith.

N:B
What do you think of psalms 82?

Let me help you.

1. God presides in the great assembly;
he renders judgment among the “gods”:
(NIV version)

2. God stands in the congregation of the mighty;
He judges among the gods
(NKJV)

3. God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
(New Revised Standard)

4.Psalm 82 (Greek numbering: Psalm 81) is the 82nd psalm in the biblical Book of Psalms. God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One; in the middle of the gods he judges.
(wikipaedia)

From all the above, what picture do you get?.

You do realize that psalms are songs and not literal statements don't you?

Let me sing you a song we sing in Nigerian churches today:
Jesus na you be oga
Jesus na you be oga
Every other god na so so yeye
Every other god na so so yeye

What does this tell you? Does it mean that Jesus is literally surrounded by a council of foolish gods of which he is their boss ordering them around?

1.That the there has been a deliberate effort to mistranslate and obfuscate the central message of psalms 82.
2. That Yahweh, as is evident in the bible, was just one of many deities of the ancient Canaan and the later, the hebrews.
3. That from time to time, just like the Egyptian, Summerian and Babylonian pantheons, The gods sat in council to judge one another and pronounce binding judgements.

The fact that this is what the psalm tells you shows me that your your understanding is heavily tainted by your unfounded biases

If this escapes you, then dont hold me responsible to educate you and show you proof.
Proof ni, proof ko.

You my friend are a terrible fanatic who is very happy to disregard proof when it doesn't suit his bias.

It makes me laugh when you tell me that my faith devoid of reason while you post assertions that you have not been careful enough to investigate yourself.

I have been charitable enough to follow your links and try to really understand the point you are trying to make and all I have found is lies and a terrible pretense at reasoning.

In fact if anyone has blind faith on this thread, it is you.

cyrexx:


its obvious you dont know the meaning of brainwashing or you deliberately choose to purposely twist the meaning of that word, like you always do when you are cornered. i dont want to call you dishonest but what you did here is a big disappointment from you and i hold you in such a high esteem. so, the person who called you "artful dodger" may not be wrong afterall. i dont know when "referencing" and "researching" begin to have the same meaning as "brainwashing".

Oh keep quiet my friend. What has "artful dodging" got to do with posting the text you claim to be "referencing and researching" here for all to see?

Mr_Anony:
Of course it isn't but then since you have already started "educating" me on it. Why suddenly realize that it isn't your responsibility?


This is absolute rubbish. You are like the child who was told to draw a goat eating grass and when he couldn't, he submitted a blank paper saying that the goat he had drawn had eaten the grass and walked away.


I have posted above one of such ancient Summerian texts that has no "ambiguities or controversies" about the creation of man


....says Mr De la Torre the self-taught theologian.
Perhaps I should teach myself law and proceed to defend you in court. I'm sure you would like that.


You linked me to a very long article, perhaps you may want to link me to specific quotes I can work with. Besides, the pope is not the head of my faith, Christ is the head of my faith.



You do realize that psalms are songs and not literal statements don't you?

Let me sing you a song we sing in Nigerian churches today:
Jesus na you be oga
Jesus na you be oga
Every other god na so so yeye
Every other god na so so yeye

What does this tell you? Does it mean that Jesus is literally surrounded by a council of foolish gods of which he is their boss ordering them around?


The fact that this is what the psalm tells you shows me that your your understanding is heavily tainted by your unfounded biases


You my friend are a terrible fanatic who is very happy to disregard proof when it doesn't suit his bias.

It makes me laugh when you tell me that my faith devoid of reason while you post assertions that you have not been careful enough to investigate yourself.

I have been charitable enough to follow your links and try to really understand the point you are trying to make and all I have found is lies and a terrible pretense at reasoning.

In fact if anyone has blind faith on this thread, it is you.

Word, bro.

@cyrexx, I was addressing my brother, Mr Anony, not you. And the guy I was refering to was Plaetton.

Mr_Anony:

Oh keep quiet my friend. What has "artful dodging" got to do with posting the text you claim to be "referencing and researching" here for all to see?

no, you are the one who should keep quiet. you asked for comparison of the two creation story. i provided you a detailed comparison, you cant deal with it and you are here talking like this..

if you read the comparison and you dont like what you see, you should be the one to keep quiet, not me.

Ihedinobi: You are far better suited for this guy and this argument, my brother @Mr Anony. I think I'll retreat to the sides and just watch you shred him (oh yeah, that's what you're doing o lol). It's far more fun watching you than dealing with him myself

Lol, don't mind the guy. He probably thought that that I would be too lazy to actually look up his links.
Anyway sha, let us give him the benefit of doubt. Let him come and point to us these so called similarities in the texts.

cyrexx: ^^^
far better suited?
i dont understand, sir
are you referring to me

I think he was referring to plaetton.

Mee234: One of the problems of anti-bible people(muslems inclusive) is that is that they pick one verse start treating that verse in isolation. Or they will goute some absure historical work to support their clame. Thanks mr Anony for your post on those two books for all to read. The way that guy was sounding about the similarity between both books you will think they were copy from each other. He is just a fraud like the rest of them

It was mere copy and paste; in fact it was plagiarism since there was no acknowledgment or indication given that it was copy and paste.*

And this is what the guy being relied upon said about himself:*

I present myself as "an amateur bible scholar," not having ANY formal education in Bible studies beyond a general Intro to "History of Western Civilization 101" in college. What I know is ALL "self-taught."

My "teachers" are the authors of the books which I cite in my various articles and "Reccomended Books" page in the Bibliography Menu.

* Links removed because of spam bot but can be easily found by googling.

Ihedinobi:

Word, bro.

@cyrexx, I was addressing my brother, Mr Anony, not you. And the guy I was refering to was Plaetton.

thanks for clarifying. enjoy.

cyrexx:

no, you are the one who should keep quiet. you asked for comparison of the two creation story. i provided you a detailed comparison, you cant deal with it and you are here talking like this..

if you read the comparison and you dont like what you see, you should be the one to keep quiet, not me.

What comparison? where? please enuma elish is on this thread, all you have to do is re-quote it here and highlight all the places that it is similar with genesis so that everyone can see. Don't link us to yet another bogus website.

Enigma:

It was mere copy and paste; in fact it was plagiarism since there was no acknowledgment or indication given that it was copy and paste.*

And this is what the guy being relied upon said about himself:*


* Links removed because of spam bot but can be easily found by googling.

lol, I see you looked up De la Torre too.
The spambot also banned me for those links

(edited and adapted and broken into parts to avoid post being hidden again)

1. This is what the vaunted Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld y de la Torre says about himself

I present myself as "an amateur bible scholar," not having ANY formal education in Bible studies beyond a general Intro to "History of Western Civilization 101" in college. What I know is ALL "self-taught."

My "teachers" are the authors of the books which I cite in my various articles and "Reccomended Books" page in the Bibliography Menu.

Of course there are proper experts as well as proper scholarship in these matters.

2. The debate on the dating of the Enuma Elis vis a vis Genesis is not really settled.

3. It does not matter anyway as it is not a big deal that similar motifs (NB in this case not accounts, not stories; and note point 4 below) are found in different and sometimes even far flung places. In this particular case, the geography is of a relatively small area anyway.

4. Those who harp on about similarities between things like the Enuma Elis and e.g. Genesis of course fail to point out the dissimilarities and that in most cases the dissimilarities far outweigh the similarities.

Mr_Anony:
lol, I see you looked up De la Torre too.
The spambot also banned me for those links

If some of these people say 'good morning', it is advisable to check your watch/clock and to look outside.

Mr_Anony:

What comparison? where? please enuma elish is on this thread, all you have to do is re-quote it here and highlight all the places that it is similar with genesis so that everyone can see. Don't link us to yet another bogus website.

so it is automatically judged as a "bogus website" because it show how Sumerian creation myth influenced Genesis creation myth.

hmmm.

'I've started so I'll finish'

4 contd
Even Wikipedia which is not exactly a friend of Christianity says (inter alia - I had to shorten quote considerably because of posts getting hidden and all that):

The similarities are scant, however, and the strongest resemblance can be found in the etymology of "in the beginning" and "when on high." . . .

5. Even the section of Wikipedia from which the line above is quoted gives sufficient indication of the difference between the revelation recorded in Genesis and whatever "similar" motifs or even stories may have existed elsewhere.

6. For examples of proper and more rigorous scholarship on the topic, look for e.g. Millard, "New Babylonian 'Genesis' Story" and/or also Waltke, "The Creation Account in Genesis 1:1-3 Part IV: The Theology of Genesis 1", Weeks, " The Hermeneutical Problem of Genesis 1-11"

A more simplistic and less rigorous piece but still helpful on the contrast is one by Wellman on the CARM website.

7. There are a number of these things that some people like to point to e.g. expect at some point to hear (further) about The Epic of Gilgamesh, Adam Kadmon etc etc

8. The one thing to always bear in mind is whether one is being presented with a jaundiced view or a view that is truly knowledgeable on the scholarship.

Ah, going back to Job for a minute reminds me of a Yoruba play years ago about a chap who suffered great injustice though in his case because of the actions of men and women rather than of "gods" before also being vindicated eventually.

Possibly, someone (Joagbaje maybe?) would reognise it from this song.

Agiriaṣaṣa ma binu, otitọ inu ti gbe ọ ga, otitọ inu ti gbe'ja rẹ; ma mikan iwọ l'a gb'ade fun (or iwọ la gb'ojule)

cyrexx:

so it is automatically judged as a "bogus website" because it show how Sumerian creation myth influenced Genesis creation myth.

hmmm.

Are you serious?? Cyrexx, this is the first time I'm knowing you to be dishonest and willfully ignorant.

There are websites claiming all sorts of things and you know it. Any id[i]i[/i]ot can set up a website and say anything.
You are the ones claiming that Enuma Elish is similar to Genesis.
I have been sincere enough to post them both side by side on this thread, all I have asked you to do is to highlight these similarities for us.

If they are glaring as you say, then they shouldn't be difficult to point out. Not so?

If you can't point them out, why don't you just admit that you were wrong about this issue and then we can move on....or you can highlight the similarities and then you'll be right and we won't have to argue any more.


You are the one who keeps saying that religious people never admit that they are wrong. Obviously, you are not religious now, or are you?

diluminati: @plaetton
these religious die hards wont understand you at all because they are scared of simple common sense.thats a problem with faith. But things are changing and i have hope these religiousity will fade away. I really dig your reasoning ability. When i set up my kingdom ill make you my minister of reasoning faculty.

How charming.....plaetton has got himself a groupie.



You guys have corrupted the meaning of phrases like[i] common sense, reasoning ability[/i] and reasoning faculty

Mr_Anony:
How charming.....plaetton has got himself a groupie.



You guys have corrupted the meaning of phrases like[i] common sense, reasoning ability[/i] and reasoning faculty

Hurray for me.
Dont be jealous, You have your own groupie.

plaetton:


Hurray for me.
Dont be jealous, You have your own groupie.

Heyy, there he is!! We've been waiting for you to come and show us those "similarities" you have been talking about.

.....by the way, I don't have groupies but I am happy for you sha.

Mr_Anony:

Heyy, there he is!! We've been waiting for you to come and show us those "similarities" you have been talking about.

.....by the way, I don't have groupies but I am happy for you sha.

oh really?
Quite frankly, you wear me out. It is actually folly for me to argue with faith.
Faith can twist anything to suite its pre-determined conclusions.
I do understand that.
I have gone as far as I could to illustrate my points. The enuma elish is there for all to see. I'm quite sure you were not familair with it until this topic and all you know so far are tiny parts of the web commentaries that you deem favourable to your beliefs.

If you have a genuine interests on the subject, then spend time to read up on AttraHasis, another part the texts from the same summerian sources.

There, the creation epic is more detailed,with Adama or adapa being fashioned in the EDIN.
Am sure you say that Adama and edin are not similarities as well.

The tower of babel incident and the flood are told in detail as well in the Attrahasis .
Read them and still maintain there are not similarites, or even better, you can tell yourself that your bible was written before the summerians copied it[b](Forgetting , ofcourse, that your biblical patriarch, Abraham, came from Ur, the capital of Summer)[/b]. Believe whatever suites your nerves.

Anyway, I do not wish to comment any further on this topic.
You can claim victory if it suites you.
Good day.

See you in another thread.

plaetton:

oh really?
Quite frankly, you wear me out. It is actually folly for me to argue with faith.
Faith can twist anything to suite its pre-determined conclusions.
I do understand that.
I have gone as far as I could to illustrate my points. The enuma elish is there for all to see. I'm quite sure you were not familair with it until this topic and all you know so far are tiny parts of the web commentaries that you deem favourable to your beliefs.

If you have a genuine interests on the subject, then spend time to read up on AttraHasis, another part the texts from the same summerian sources.

There, the creation epic is more detailed,with Adama or adapa being fashioned in the EDIN.
Am sure you say that Adama and edin are not similarities as well.

The tower of babel incident and the flood are told in detail as well in the Attrahasis .
Read them and still maintain there are not similarites, or even better, you can tell yourself that your bible was written before the summerians copied it[b](Forgetting , ofcourse, that your biblical patriarch, Abraham, came from Ur, the capital of Summer)[/b]. Believe whatever suites your nerves.

Anyway, I do not wish to comment any further on this topic.
You can claim victory if it suites you.
Good day.

See you in another thread.

Dude, stop it. Your dishonesty is beginning to show.
You said that the Enuma Elish bears the closest resemblance to Genesis 1.
I went on to paste a copy of the Enuma Elish on this thread for you to point out the similarities for us all to see.
Instead of admitting that you were mistaken, you shamelessly accuse me of twisting things.

It is not about "victory" in argument, It is about exposing lies and poor logic.

^^^ It's all bluff. Now it is the Atra-Hasis. Meanwhile one of the leading scholars (indeed, arguably the leading scholar) on the Atra-Hasis and in fact who is chiefly responsible for translating it to English is a Christian i.e. the same Millard one of whose articles I cited in relation to the Enuma Elis earlier.



PS Remember I said there are a few of these things that these people like to shout about; so now with the Atra-Hasis, we can tick the Epic of Gilgamesh that I mentioned. So next, Adam Kadmon?

Enigma: ^^^ It's all bluff. Now it is the Atra-Hasis. Meanwhile one of the leading scholars (indeed, arguably the leading scholar) on the Atra-Hasis and in fact who is chiefly responsible for translating it to English is a Christian i.e. the same Millard one of whose articles I cited in relation to the Enuma Elis earlier.



PS Remember I said there are a few of these things that these people like to shout about; so now with the Atra-Hasis, we can tick the Epic of Gilgamesh that I mentioned. So next, Adam Kadmon?

I'm curious about how you want to fit Adam Kadmon into this, or how you expect it to be fitted.

^^^ You sure you got the right person after this? https://www.nairaland.com/770438/idea-god/2#11347151