mkmyers45:

So he isn't same with god then? So its safe to worship 3 gods...

Cool

He isn't the same with The Father. Jesus points to Whom you should worship, The Father

John 4:21,23
King James Version (KJV)
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Enigma:

If you put it that way I won't object just for the sake of simplicity but, personally, I would express it differently.

Yes, as God Jesus knows everything. If you are in doubt, get a Bible with His words in red ----- and read his words in the book of Revelation. (For this purpose, even if you do not believe the Bible, you will have to agree that it is the reference point for this thread).

Well...i still dont get it...On his time on earth as man and god did he know? if yes why didn't tell? if no why?

Lord_Reed:

He isn't the same with The Father. Jesus points to Whom you should worship, The Father

John 4:21,23
King James Version (KJV)
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Then how is he a god when he isn't to be worshipped?

mkmyers45:

Well...i still dont get it...On his time on earth as man and god did he know? if yes why didn't tell? if no why?

I think it is very simple and perhaps if you spend 1/10 of the time exploring "wave particles" etc on studying the Bible, you will have not much difficulty understanding this ---- even if you do not accept or believe it.

Jesus walked the earth as man even though He himself was and is God ----- that is the mystery or the scandal of the incarnation,

He functioned as man for the most part even though there is no way He could ever be an ordinary man; in his function as man He deprived Himself (or was deprived) of some of His divine attributes; that is only logical and sensible. It was in that respect that He said He did not know the time or hour etc.

Now as to the "why" aspect of it ------ you think about it yourself: supposing Einstein (or whichever living scientist is considered today's equivalent "genius" can do a visual examination of a person's physique and from that can tell the exact day the person would die, would he go about telling people the day and date they would die?

mkmyers45:

So he isn't same with god then? So its safe to worship 3 gods...

Cool

On poınt,thats what ı'm even thınkıng of.

Enigma:

I think it is very simple and perhaps if you spend 1/10 of the time exploring "wave particles" etc on studying the Bible, you will have not much difficulty understanding this ---- even if you do not accept or believe it.

Jesus walked the earth as man even though He himself was and is God ----- that is the mystery or the scandal of the incarnation,

He functioned as man for the most part even though there is no way He could ever be an ordinary man; in his function as man He deprived Himself (or was deprived) of some of His divine attributes; that is only logical and sensible. It was in that respect that He said He did not know the time or hour etc.

Now as to the "why" aspect of it ------ you think about it yourself: supposing Einstein (or whichever living scientist is considered today's equivalent "genius" can do a visual examination of a person's physique and from that can tell the exact day the person would die, would he go about telling people the day and date they would die?

Ok that was funny...

Failing to draw a correlation from the analogy....

Jesus does not know the father's mind no?

mkmyers45:

Ok that was funny...

Failing to draw a correlation from the analogy....

Jesus does not know the father's mind no?

Read and study Jesus' words in the book of Revelation and you will see that Jesus knows everything.

As I explained, the limitation was in terms of the human side of the incarnate Jesus.

mkmyers45:

Then how is he a god when he isn't to be worshipped?

This is why Jesus is worshipped:

Revelation 5
King James Version (KJV)
5 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

pastie: On poınt,thats what ı'm even thınkıng of.

Worship The Father sir.

Lord_Reed:

This is why Jesus is worshipped:

You seem to be confused...

Lord_Reed:

He isn't the same with The Father. Jesus points to Whom you should worship, The Father

John 4:21,23
King James Version (KJV)
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

and then again you go check and come to say he deserves worship?

#Weird

mkmyers45:

You seem to be confused...



and then again you go check and come to say he deserves worship?

#Weird

You asked a question about why Jesus deserves worship no? I have shown you why. Had Jesus died before He made the statement in John 4? No

Lord_Reed:

You asked a question about why Jesus deserves worship no? I have shown you why. Had Jesus died before He made the statement in John 4? No

You misunderstand....

mkmyers45:

Then how is he a god when he isn't to be worshipped?

That was my question...then you show me verses that purportedly support the worship of Jesus...and still insist on sole work of the father

#Weird

mkmyers45:

You misunderstand....



That was my question...then you show me verses that purportedly support the worship of Jesus...and still insist on sole work of the father

#Weird

Let me reiterate for you, Jesus is God; all power in Heaven and on Earth has been given to Him, so He is de facto God. He came to Earth not to represent Himself but to get men back to The Father thus He did not seek men to worship on Earth when He was here. When He returned to Heaven and it was made clear that this same Jesus is God, worshiping Him (Jesus) is also revealed.

My bad that I did not point that out when I made the post about worshipping The Father.

Lord_Reed:

Yes quite a number and the Jews of His time understood what He meant

that the Jews (mis)understood him doesn't really answer the question whether the man unequivocally claimed divinity.

first you should just answer honestly, "no". then we can take it from there.a

F00028:


that the Jews (mis)understood him doesn't really answer the question whether the man unequivocally claimed divinity.

first you should just answer honestly, "no". then we can take it from there.a

Jesus clearly assets His Divine origin in many places, to say no He didn't will make me the dishonest one. The Jews did not misunderstand His statements in that, they prefectly knew what He was claiming. You are the one who needs to accept that and go on from there.

Lord_Reed:

Jesus clearly assets His Divine origin in many places, to say no He didn't will make me the dishonest one. The Jews did not misunderstand His statements in that, they prefectly knew what He was claiming. You are the one who needs to accept that and go on from there.

very well then, I will. just show me the many places "Jesus clearly assets His Divine origin "

F00028:

very well then, I will. just show me the many places "Jesus clearly assets His Divine origin "

Matt.7:21,22; 10:32,40; 11:27; 12:6,8,50; 13:41-43; 15:13; 16:13-17,19,27; 18:10,19,20,35; 19:28;22:41-45; 24:30,31; 25:31-46; 26:29,53,64; 28:18,20

There you go just from the Book of Matthew alone.

Lord_Reed:

Matt.7:21,22; 10:32,40; 11:27; 12:6,8,50; 13:41-43; 15:13; 16:13-17,19,27; 18:10,19,20,35; 19:28;22:41-45; 24:30,31; 25:31-46; 26:29,53,64; 28:18,20

There you go just from the Book of Matthew alone.

whoa!! that many? ok. i'll have a look and get back to you.

p.s hope you were mindful of the fact that I said "UNEQUIVOCAL".

Lord_Reed:

Matt.7:21,22; 10:32,40; 11:27; 12:6,8,50; 13:41-43; 15:13; 16:13-17,19,27; 18:10,19,20,35; 19:28;22:41-45; 24:30,31; 25:31-46; 26:29,53,64; 28:18,20

There you go just from the Book of Matthew alone.

matt. 7:21-if it's because he says "My Father" then you should know that in matt. 6:9 he says "Our Father", in matt. 5:16 it's "Your Father"

ditto for for matt.10:32, 11:27, 18:10,19 and so on.

matt. 7:22- i don't see a proclaimation here

really Lord_Reed if you don't have something just say you don't have it. face it, the man himself NEVER claimed to be God, NEVER demanded worship, NEVER claimed any power other than the one given to him by the One True God (joh 17:3) the same way God had empowered other men before him.

F00028:

matt. 7:21-if it's because he says "My Father" then you should know that in matt. 6:9 he says "Our Father", in matt. 5:16 it's "Your Father"

ditto for for matt.10:32, 11:27, 18:10,19 and so on.

matt. 7:22- i don't see a proclaimation here

really Lord_Reed if you don't have something just say you don't have it. face it, the man himself NEVER claimed to be God, NEVER demanded worship, NEVER claimed any power other than the one given to him by the One True God (joh 17:3) the same way God had empowered other men before him.

You obviously did not got through the entire series so lemme help you a bit:

Matthew 13:41-43
King James Version (KJV)
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Matthew 16:13-17
King James Version (KJV)
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 16:27
King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Are these the statements of a mere human? Do they not show someone who clearly has Divine origins? He says God is His Father and that He has the glory of His Father what more do you seek?

Lord_Reed:

Are these the statements of a mere human? Do they not show someone who clearly has Divine origins? He says God is His Father and that He has the glory of His Father what more do you seek?

sigh...what I am asking for, you don't have. i ask because we know of God not leave such matters open to debate or misinterpretation and so you get clear, simple, unequivocal declarations like you find in: EX 20:5

obviously Jesus knew enough not to make such claims. on the contrary he quite candidly emphasises his HUMANITY as you see in Jhn 5:30. his knowledge is limited (mk 13:32), he was jew who came only for the jews (mk24-26), he declared there was only ONE TRUE GOD (mk 12:29) and that God is greater than he (joh 14:28) and it was to that God that he too prayed (Mat.26:36)

and another thing, God has got sons by the tons in the bible.e.g ex4:22, jer31:9, ps 2:7 and especially when the bible declares that He is OUR Father (mt 6.9). it is a pretty large group!

F00028:

sigh...what I am asking for, you don't have. i ask because we know of God not leave such matters open to debate or misinterpretation and so you get clear, simple, unequivocal declarations like you find in: EX 20:5

obviously Jesus knew enough not to make such claims. on the contrary he quite candidly emphasises his HUMANITY as you see in Jhn 5:30. his knowledge is limited (mk 13:32), he was jew who came only for the jews (mk24-26), he declared there was only ONE TRUE GOD (mk 12:29) and that God is greater than he (joh 14:28) and it was to that God that he too prayed (Mat.26:36)

and another thing, God has got sons by the tons in the bible.e.g ex4:22, jer31:9, ps 2:7 and especially when the bible declares that He is OUR Father (mt 6.9). it is a pretty large group!

How many of those sons sit at the Right Hand of The Father? How many have been given the job of executing judgment? How many are leading the angels of Heaven? How many are being worshiped by the very host in front of the throne of Heaven? Finally how many have been given all power and authority in Heaven and on Earth?

Jesus was well aware of His humanity but did not deny His Divine origins. If you want to ignore Him saying that He commands the hosts of Heaven well I have no idea what other proof of Divine origin you want.

Lord_Reed:

How many of those sons sit at the Right Hand of The Father? How many have been given the job of executing judgment? How many are leading the angels of Heaven? How many are being worshiped by the very host in front of the throne of Heaven? Finally how many have been given all power and authority in Heaven and on Earth?

Jesus was well aware of His humanity but did not deny His Divine origins. If you want to ignore Him saying that He commands the hosts of Heaven well I have no idea what other proof of Divine origin you want.

there, you said it, "given". any power he may exercise is not his own and it doesn't make God.

on the contrary the man tells you again and again worship is due to The Father alone.

well all have divine origins. if think the birth of Jesus was miraculous you haven't considered Adam. he had no mother or father and yet he was. Jesus at least had a mother so the work was half done.

or you can look at Jeremiah. God said he knew him even before he was in his mother's womb and even then had already made him a prophet. it doesn't get more divine than that.

F00028:

there, you said it, "given". any power he may exercise is not his own and it doesn't make God.

on the contrary the man tells you again and again worship is due to The Father alone.

well all have divine origins. if think the birth of Jesus was miraculous you haven't considered Adam. he had no mother or father and yet he was. Jesus at least had a mother so the work was half done.

or you can look at Jeremiah. God said he knew him even before he was in his mother's womb and even then had already made him a prophet. it doesn't get more divine than that.

At least you acknowledge He has being given the power, what you seem to contest is whether that makes Him God.
Here is what Jesus says about that:

Matthew 22:41-45
King James Version (KJV)
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together,
Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is
he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth[b] David in
spirit call him Lord[/b], saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my
right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45[b] If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?[/b]

What further evidence do you need? He confirms that He sits on the right hand of The Father is He Divine or not?

Lord_Reed:

At least you acknowledge He has being given the power, what you seem to contest is whether that makes Him God.
He is what Jesus says about that:

Matthew 22:41-45
King James Version (KJV)
41 While the Pharisees were gathered together,
Jesus asked them,
42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is
he? They say unto him, The son of David.
43 He saith unto them, How then doth[b] David in
spirit call him Lord[/b], saying,
44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my
right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45[b] If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?[/b]

What further evidence do you need? He confirms that He sits on the right hand of The Father is He Divine or not?

sorry. been busy today.
i was wondering why you didn't start with this from the get-go.

i believe the scripture above refers to Psalm 110:1. the person being addressed above (jews believe it's David, christians believe it's Jesus) was never actually called "God". He was called "Adoni", which is a term given to human kings for honor and respect (e.g my Lord, my king, etc...).

however, i don't blame you because translations often have it as "The LORD said to my Lord...." which creates the impression you have.

F00028:
sorry. been busy today.
i was wondering why you didn't start with this from the get-go.

i believe the scripture above refers to Psalm 110:1. the person being addressed above (jews believe it's David, christians believe it's Jesus) was never actually called "God". He was called "Adoni", which is a term given to human kings for honor and respect (e.g my Lord, my king, etc...).

however, i don't blame you because translations often have it as "The LORD said to my Lord...." which creates the impression you have.

In order words when Jesus quoted this scripture He was off His rocker right? He didn't know what He was talking about right? Okay I think you've made it clear that you will interpret scripture the way it suits you even when it plainly gives you the evidence you desire.

Lord_Reed:

In order words when Jesus quoted this scripture He was off His rocker right? He didn't know what He was talking about right? Okay I think you've made it clear that you will interpret scripture the way it suits you even when it plainly gives you the evidence you desire.

as do you.

that is why i asked you from the beginning if there was a simple, clear, unequivocal statement by Jesus saying he was God of that we should worship him. because i have learnt from the scriptures that when it comes to such a matter God doesn't leave room for doubt. see what i mean: Gen 35:11,Exd 16:12, Psa 46:10,Isa 41:10,Jer 32:27 and Eze 20:19

F00028:

as do you.

that is why i asked you from the beginning if there was a simple, clear, unequivocal statement by Jesus saying he was God of that we should worship him. because i have learnt from the scriptures that when it comes to such a matter God doesn't leave room for doubt. see what i mean: Gen 35:11,Exd 16:12, Psa 46:10,Isa 41:10,Jer 32:27 and Eze 20:19

Isn't funny that this same Jesus says He is the Lord yet you beg to differ? What is "equivocal" about the scripture He quoted? Or Jesus did not mean what He said? Please tell me.

Let me go a little technical and quote a Jewish Bible:

Yochanan 1:1
Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:3], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with, etzel, Mishle 8:30;30:4) Hashem, and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13 i.e., the Ma'amar Memra]

UPDATE:
ADONAI ( , literally "my Lord," the plural
form of Adon, that is, "Lord" or "Lordship":

This word occurs in the Masoretic text 315 times by the side of the Tetragram YHWH (310 times
preceding and five times succeeding it) and 134
times without it. Originally an appellation of God

Source: www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/840-adonai

Deuteronomy 6:4
New King James Version (NKJV)
4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is
one!
Devarim 6:4
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
4 Shema Yisroel[b] Adonoi Eloheinu Adonoi[/b] Echad.

Lord_Reed:

Isn't funny that this same Jesus says He is the Lord yet you beg to differ? What is "equivocal" about the scripture He quoted? Or Jesus did not mean what He said? Please tell me.

nothing funny about it if my salvation depends on it.

you know even in english " lord" doesn't automatically mean God, the One worthy of worship. otherwise in 2cor 4:4 SATAN is referred to as a god.

(btw in the original greek the words used for the devil in the verse above is HOTHEOS i.e The God. but the translators always give him small "g"

F00028:

nothing funny about it if my salvation depends on it.

you know even in english " lord" doesn't automatically mean God, the One worthy of worship. otherwise in 2cor 4:4 SATAN is referred to as a god.

(btw in the original greek the words used for the devil in the verse above is HOTHEOS i.e The God. but the translators always give him small "g"

Can we stick to the topic at hand?

Unfortunately my previous post was hidden. If I can get it unhidden I will want you to answer it.