Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims - Religion (6) - Nairaland
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| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by ajia23(m): 4:35pm On Jun 28, 2006 |
They are very many existing. What peeves me is nott his ilk, but the type of people that tolerate these attacks, and then when I STate what I believe, they are quick to claim that I am pouring invectives. A lot of people nee to define the word invective. If I stated that by not following the doctrine of pacifism which most christians confess as exemplified by their reluctance to turn the other side of the face when slapped, I perceive hypocrisy, they turn and say that is an invective. When I say I feel some condescension in their manner of addressing or responding to me, they say it's a silent way of throwing invectives. Meaning I cannot state how I FEEL, but I have to accept what they say about the alleged atrocities of Muhammed (SAW) by going as far as describing him as a nurderer and paedophile. Who is throwing invectives? I am just learning a lot about their tricks, they wouldn't want a fair argument as they choose what to respond to and what to ignore, and then engage in self exultation in a hubristic manner about how the muslims withdraw because they can't stand up to them. What they however fail to realise is that every Muslim on this forum is not trying to prove how good he is with arguments and the techniques, but is more concerned primarily with changing the presumptious beliefs held about Islam. We are not even concerned with converting them back to Islam as making sure that they hear the message. God will do the conversion. I however encourage my brothers for the spirited defence put up so far. May Allah reward us all. |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by belloti(m): 4:43pm On Jun 28, 2006 |
Amen, Ajia. You have spoken my mind Lets tread carefully please. Religion is a delicate and sensitive subject. We can all say our opinion without hurting anyone's sanity. The world is big enough. |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by Nobody: 7:19pm On Jun 28, 2006 |
belloti:Stop hiding behind your finger. I raised certain points which in your wonderful way have dodged by pretending not to get my points. In my last two posts i raised salient facts that have been proven because they are IN THE QURAN not cooked up facts. I did not introduce direct attacks on your religion, i do not gain anything by doing so, i have simply raised certain issues you all (logical, ajia and ur self) have all pretended not to see. I have not expressed any sentiments (talk aboout calling them disgusting), i have simply tried to seek explanation for some questionable things found in your quran. If truly you see this forum as a medium for organised discussion, you would do well to respond to salient points rather than going off tangent and pretending to be disgusted by "sentiments" when in actual fact you are simply trying to cover reality with emotions. I do not intend to convert you, you know the "truth" pls stick with it, i am however surprised that you say a certain reality awaits me. could you define that? does that include passing a fatwah on me? sorry, it seems its YOU who will be shocked at the end time! @ajia23 You mask your ignorance with sweet sounding words. You, like other "responsible" muslims try to hide behind a facade of a "peace-loving" islam that is misunderstood by the unbelievers. We are not even concerned with converting them back to Islam as making sure that they hear the message. God will do the conversion.Unfortunately, your contradictions are fully exposed by your above statement. Is that line in your quran at all? Qur'an 9:5 "Fight and slay the pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem." "Allah's Apostle said, "Allah welcomes two men with a smile; one of whom kills the other and both of them enter Paradise. One fights in Allah's Cause and gets killed. Later on Allah forgives the 'killer who also get martyred (In Allah's Cause).", Hadith, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 80i, Narrated Abu Huraira Those words found in your quran completely contradicts your "God will do the conversion" theory. Muslims are expressly asked to kill unbelievers! Meaning I cannot state how I FEEL, but I have to accept what they say about the alleged atrocities of Muhammed (SAW) by going as far as describing him as a nurderer and paedophile. Who is throwing invectives?Pedophile - An adult who is sexually attracted to a child or children. Child - A child is identified, according to the US Children's Online Privacy Protection Act of 1998 (COPPA) is someone under the age of thirteen (13). Here are FACTS that i am sure Belotti is aware of: “The messenger of God betrothed me when I was six years old and then married me when I was nine years old.” |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by Zahymaka(m): 7:38pm On Jun 28, 2006 |
Davidylan, while I'm a christian, I've always believed in letting sleeping dogs lie - religion is the most controversial topic on this earth, and everyone believes his doctrine is right. Muslim-Christian and Christian-Muslim conversions don't come about by your methods. . . I hope you're not offended. |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by Nobody: 7:48pm On Jun 28, 2006 |
Zahymaka: Not at all Zah, but as long as we keep quiet in the face of contradictions and bold faced lies, no one will ever hear the truth. The fact that Pharaoh's heart was hardened (God did that on purpose) did not prevent Moses from going to speak to him night and day until he let the people of Isreal go. Simply folding arms and keeping quiet while it looks like the "christian" thing to do may not be right after all. |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by syrup(f): 8:31pm On Jun 28, 2006 |
This is why I have often wondered about Muslim reaction to discussions either in an open forum or elsewhere by other media. It's either that they suddenly call for an end to a thread; or where answers are no longer forth-coming from them, the easiest thing to do would be to either accuse others or deride them. I don't know much about Islam and that's why I often take a peep to learn from either sides and read views, opinions, claims and/or counter-claims. For example, putting aside the US Children's Online Privacy Protection Act of 1998 (COPPA), since the Prophet Muhammad lived over 14 centuries earlier, I'm wondering how Muslims today would view the notion of an aged man (be it prophet, Imam, apostle, pastor, bishop, etc) getting married to a child! I still don't see the sane defence offered by Muslims for that event so far on the thread, and excuse me if I say that it's all been about conjectures and nothing more. In which consequence, I'm still left wondering about this: would a Muslim man today consider marrying a 6 y.o. girl and having sex with her at age 9?? Or, would such a man give out his under-aged daughter to an elderly man to have sex with in good conscience? Why is that not pedophilia by any standard - whether in the past or present? And even so, why is it pedophilia at all - whether by "revelation" or Arab culture? How could a child be expected to be mature enough to make informed decisions about marriage at such a tender age? All these are questions that I haven't read addressed by Muslims, and I hope that answers would be forth-coming. |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by ajia23(m): 6:44pm On Jun 30, 2006 |
@ DavidLan Are you a pagan? Did you persecute the muslims in the 7th century? I have so many similar questions for you, but if your answers to the first two are yes, then I would have fought you if I lived in the 7th century. @ Syrup Let America define paedophilia for you, their definition is for you and your generation. I doubt if they can go dig up the corpses of the past generations that engaged in paedophilia by their definition. And the reference to Muhammed (SAW) sleeping with a 9 yr old girl is totally false, as I took the pains to verify it. When a marriage is consummated, it means the dowry has been paid, and the couple can be deemed to be man and wife. Nothing specifies the rules of sexual intercourse, and stating anything on it will be just conjecture. The Hadiths you quoted does not exist, please check your sources again |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by m4malik(m): 6:54pm On Jun 30, 2006 |
So, the "man and wife" are understood to be what then - spectators to the wedding carpets, abi? Please, don't go round these issues. The very thought of an elderly man marrying an under-aged girl is hideous, and the 50-something year old ought to have known better! |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by Nobody: 7:00pm On Jun 30, 2006 |
Keep going round in circles Ajia23, i'm sure not even you will sanction your 6 yr old daughter to marry your 50 yr old friend. Whether the 7th or 700th century, Pedophilia remains the same, no decent human being will subject a 9yr old to the horrors of sexual intercourse. Sorry your "prophet" did. And as for fighting me simply because i was a 7th century "pagan" and for "persecuting muslims" is simply preposterous. I can't remember when muslims were ever persecuted. If at all the most persecuted religion in the world is christianity, just read the history of the jews, the holocaust, christians in communist europe and islamic nations, yet they are yet to form terrorist groups and recruit suicide bombers! Get real! |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by Logical(m): 2:53pm On Jul 01, 2006 |
Muhammad's marriage to Aisha logically answered in the context of historical references that counters the first source that mentions the exact age. https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-14674.64.html#msg462673 |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by ajia23(m): 7:11am On Jul 02, 2006 |
If I had a 6yr old daughter, and some person came to marry her, I'd probably go clean up my double barrel, and load some 16 mm catridges. But that's besides the point. I am saying assuming that Muhammed (SAW) married Aisha (RA) at 9 yrs old, does that mean he slept with her at that age? And like I said earlier, all this is mere conjecture, go research and provide real proof that he indeed got married to her at that age, and slept with her too. Until then, please enjoy your cyclical concourse. |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by Nobody: 8:38pm On Jul 02, 2006 |
ajia23: You make me laugh.  cyclical concourse? you're the one in spiritual darkness, sorry to use that word. I don't think the burden of proof rests with christians to prove mohammed slept with a 9 yr old girl. Whether he did or not does not change the fact that He IS NOT from Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. the burden of proof lies with moslems to prove because it is you who practice the religion full of contradictions and out right lies. One ques: Why do moslems even today still indulge in the practice of marrying off under aged girls to old men? There are plenty of examples!!! |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by Gwaine(m): 10:18pm On Jul 02, 2006 |
Well, Dave. . . the thing is that there are plenty of examples of people marrying young, and plenty of others who took child brides. I had hoped that Logical would provide me with good answers in my enquiries earlier, not because I was unaware of the fact; but because I wanted to persuade him to see that the practice of child brides is unethical in the case of a "Prophet" who claimed to have done his by 'revelation'. In another thread, he referenced the case of Fatima (Muhammad's daughter) who got married to Imam Ali (Muhammad's cousin) - and he called that: "to name just a few". Point noted; but what I can't get is that Aisha was married off to the "Prophet" at such a tender age (as she testified herself) - and without her express consent; and yet, when it came to the "Prophet's" own daughter, he didn't just do the same thing by snatching her hand and giving her off to his cousin, Ali. First, he embarrassed others who had come seeking Fatima's hand in marriage (they were just his 'companions' and not related to him); but in Ali's case - you just wait to read the story! E plenty, no be small! As time permits, I'll arrange some on the Forum - if you've not read them already. The difference is that while Aisha is often reported to have been married off to the 'Prophet' at 6 yrs of age, the same Prophet waited until his daughter Fatima was 9 yrs of age before he gave her to his cousin. So, for once, I'll concede that ajia23 made some good sense that he would not just follow dogma and give out his 6 y.o. to some man nearly 10 times her age. |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by mlksbaby(f): 8:59am On Jul 03, 2006 |
I'm not so sure what to make of your postulations, ajia23. On the one hand, you seemed to have been very convinced that the Prophet Muhammad married Aisha when she was aged 9: ajia23: However, on the other hand, you seem to be taking a softer position recently in stating: ajia23: So, what should I make of your position now - that even your own persuasions are mere conjucture as well? How could you be so sure of your earlier assertion that "THE simple fact is that Muhammed (SAW) married Aisha (RA) at age 9, and had sex with her only at about between age 12 to 15"? That's why I would agree that the burden of proof in that regards rests on you, since you were stating "THE simple fact." Whatever the case, it's Islamic understanding that people got married at very young ages - and secular history bears record that this was not limited to just among the Muslim community. What could be of any value in the discussion is whether this practice should have been encouraged at all among people seeking to follow God, especially in light of the circumstances surrounding Aisha's marriage to Prophet Muhammad. |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by ajia23(m): 10:44am On Jul 03, 2006 |
Mlks_baby, I seemed to have been in such a hurry to repudiate the inconsistencies in the examples cited by Gwaine, TayoD, Davidylan etc, that I decided to work based on their statements, without bothering to provide background proof. Thus my stance on making assumptions. But I took your advice and did some research the result of which is below. @ Gwaine I must confess, you and Davidylan and mlks_baby are very persuasive arguementators. If you should know, a lot of questions you raise here make me ask myself some questions which I hitherto would not have bothered to ask. But, just as I try to fix those scenarios into real life situations, and possibly view them from a human perspective or more accurately put, from your perspective, I also see other occurences which re-strengthenes my faith in Islam, which I suspect you may not know or will not even consider. So, while I try to understand the reason and rationale behind Fatima's marriage and some other sundry issues which prove the humanity and fallibility of the Prophet of Islam (SAW), I also see practical solutions to the myriad of modern day problems, like interest free banking, a strict moral code to prevent almost all the trouble between contending forces in today's world and a lot of other laudable aspects of Islam which are the primary cause for my attraction to the religion. Mention must also be made of it's practicality as regards dealing with people who are intent on persecuting you, self defence and cohabitation with people who do not share the same beliefs. All these make me stronger as a muslim, even as your queries make me have a better understanding of some situations which existed in the time of the Prophet (SAW), his actions and reactions to those situations ( whether wrong or right), and if those same constraints apply to me, and whether I can possibly improve upon them by following the later day corrections to those situations. So, I wouldn't say for instance that the Prophet rode on a camel, and therefore it's compulsory for me to ride on a camel. etc. etc. I hope you understand that Muslims are required not to follow a dogma but the principles. This said, I went to research the validity of your proofs of Ayesha's age and found the following. Deaths of Abu Talib and Khadija. In 619 C.E. Abu Talib and Khadija died. Among the Muslims the year 619 C.E. came to be known as 'The Year of Sorrow'. Abu Talib had been more than a father to the Holy Prophet. In spite of the strong pressure of the Quraish he had protected the Holy Prophet. Khadija had been for the Holy Prophet more than a wife. She had placed all her wealth ,which was considerable, at his disposal. She had given him love. She was the first person to be converted to Islam, and had been a pillar of strength for the Holy Prophet as well as the Muslims. The passing away of Abu Talib and Khadija created a great vacuum in the life of the Holy Prophet, and he felt very lonely and disconsolate. In this hour of bereavement Abu Bakr tried to console the Holy Prophet, and he spent most of his time in his company. It was the endeavor of Abu Bakr that he should as far as possible fill the vacuum created by the deaths of Abu Talib and Khadija. Holy Prophet's marriage with Sauda. At the instance of Khawla bint Hakim the Holy Prophet married Sauda bint Zama'a. Sauda was an elderly lady and was among the early converts to Islam. She was a good housewife, and looked very well after the house and the children of the Holy Prophet. Proposal for engagement to Ayesha. Khawla bint Hakim suggested to the Holy Prophet that he should marry some young lady as well who could keep him company. Whom could he marry, inquired the Holy Prophet. Khawla suggested that Ayesha the daughter of Abu Bakr would be a good choice. The Holy Prophet left it to Khawla to pursue the matter with Abu Bakr. Khawla approached Abu Bakr, and his wife Umm Ruman and made the proposal for the engagement of Ayesha to the Holy Prophet. Abu Bakr felt honored at the proposal, but his difficulty was that Ayesha was already engaged to Jubayr son of Mut'im, and it was against Abu Bakr's code of conduct to break his pledge. When this difficulty was brought to the notice of the Holy Prophet, he said that God would Himself provide a way out of the difficulty. Mut'im. Abu Bakr called at the house of A1Mut'im. Al-Mut'im was still a disbeliever, and Mu'tim's wife said to Abu Bakr "O son of Abu Qahafa, suppose we married our son to your daughter, you would turn him into an infidel, and convert him to your religion". Abu Bakr made no reply, but turning to Mut'im said, "What does she mean? " Mut'im said indifferently, "She is saying what you have heard." Abu Bakr said, "This means that you repudiate the engagement." "So let it be," said Al-Mut'im. Ayesha's engagement to the Holy Prophet. At the repudiation of the engagement by Al-Mut'im, Abu Bakr felt happy, and returned home relieved of a great burden. God had Himself provided a way out of the difficulty. Abu Bakr hastened with the good news to Khawla, and asked her to invite the Holy Prophet to his house. The Holy Prophet responded to the call, and formally asked for the hand of Ayesha. Abu Bakr was overwhelmed with joy and emotion and said, "O Prophet of God, all that I have is yours". At a simple ceremony Ayesha was engaged to the Holy Prophet. It was, however, decided that the actual marriage ceremony would be held later. Age of Ayesha. In most of the accounts that have come down to us, it is stated that at the time of her engagement to the Holy Prophet, Ayesha was a girl of six or seven years only. This appears to be an understatement. We have it on record that when Abu Bakr became a Muslim his children included Abdur Rahman, Abdullah, Asma, and Ayesha. Abu Bakr became a Muslim in 610 A.D. and Ayesha must be at least eleven or twelve years of age at the time of her engagement, and not six or seven years. Now to his marriage, Marriage of Ayesha. When the Muslims were duly settled in Madina, and the families of the Holy Prophet and Abu Bakr had come to Madina, it was decided that the formal ceremony of the marriage of Ayesha the daughter of Abu Bakr to the Holy Prophet should be performed. Ayesha was now of age. The crisis of Islam was over. The Holy Prophet was no longer a persecuted person; he was now the ruler of Madina. The Holy Prophet needed a young lady by his side whom he could love. One day early in 623 C.E., the Holy Prophet accompanied by his companions went to the house of Abu Bakr at Sukh to seek the hand of Ayesha in marriage. Ayesha's account of marriage. Ayesha has left an account of the wedding day in the following terms: "The Prophet of Allah came to our house where many of the companions were waiting. My mother brought me sitting in a litter on two poles. She made me descend; then she smoothened my hair, and washed my face with water. Then she led me to the door of the house where she stopped until I regained my composure. Then she took me to where the Prophet of God was sitting in our house, and made me sit near him saying, 'These are your people. May God bless them through you, and you through them'. The people then left, and the Prophet consummated the marriage while in our house." After the marriage. After the marriage, Ayesha was assigned a separate quarter adjoining the mosque. Ayesha was handsome, intelligent and eloquent, and the Holy Prophet loved her intensely. The marriage brought Abu Bakr still closer to the Holy Prophet. There is a tradition that once a companion asked the Holy Prophet whom did he love most, and he said 'Ayesha'. 'And whom do you love next' asked the companion, and the Holy Prophet said 'Her father Abu Bakr'. Now, it is worthy to note two points; Firstly, The Prophet got engaged to Ayesha at above 10 years since her father became a muslim at 610 AD, and Ayesha (RA) was already born then, and the year of the engagement was 619 AD. Secondly, She was with her family until 623 AD when He (SAW) finally married her. Meaning she was probably older than 13 yrs, assuming that she was born in the year 610 AD just before her father converted to Islam. So you can see that the reports of six or nine years are most probably wrong. Fatima's marriage, When the Holy Prophet migrated to Yathrib he left his family at Makkah. When the Muslims had settled in Yathrib (renamed Madina) the Holy Prophet and the other Muslims called their families to Madina. At the time of migration, Sauda an elderly lady was the only wife of the Holy Prophet whom he had married after the death of Khadija. About a year after his arrival in Madina, the Holy Prophet married Ayesha, a daughter of Abu Bakr. By this time, Fatima, the youngest daughter of the Holy Prophet had come of marriageable age, and the Holy Prophet had to consider the question of her marriage. Abu Bakr waited on the Holy Prophet, and asked for the hand of Fatima. The Holy Prophet made no answer. Thereafter Umar asked for the hand of Fatima and the Holy Prophet maintained silence. In the Arabian society of the day, the disparity in the age of the bride and the bridegroom did not matter. The Holy Prophet married Khadija when he was twenty-five and she was forty, fifteen years older than him. Later the Holy Prophet, when over fifty, married Ayesha yet within her teens. When the Holy Prophet did not respond to the requests of Abu Bakr or Umar he was not bothered about the age question; his silence was due to the fact that he had to wait for the guidance of God which was wont to get in all matters of importance affecting his person. After the Battle of Badr, Ali made his suit. The Holy Prophet told Ali that he would give his reply after consulting Fatima. The Holy Prophet consulted Fatima, and she maintained silence signifying her assent. In the meantime the Holy Prophet received the revelation that God approved of the marriage of Fatima with Ali. When Fatima the mother of Ali called on the Holy Prophet to press the suit on behalf of Ali, the Holy Prophet was pleased to announce his acceptance. According to all accounts that have come down to us, the marriage of Ali and Fatima was an ideal marriage. It was a union of two great souls. Hafsa, a daughter of Umar and later a wife of the Holy Prophet wrote some verses highlighting the greatness of the pair. She said: Fatima is superior to womankind in the world; she is the lady whose face shines as the full moon; she is the bride whose groom excels all in Scholarship. According to some authors Ali was twenty-one years old at the time of marriage, while Fatima was sixteen years old. According to my research the date of the birth of Ali is to be placed around 599 C.E. and on this basis he was 24/25 years old at the time of marriage. Fatima was born around 604 C.E. and on this basis she was 19/20 years old at the time of marriage. There appears to be a tendency with the writers of old to under estimate the ages of persons particularly women. In most of the books, for example, it is said that at the time of her marriage with the Holy Prophet, Ayesha was a child barely nine years old. Ayesha was more or less of the same age as Fatima or very nearly so, and was well within her teens at the time of her marriage. Undoubtedly the marriage of Ali and Fatima was an ideal marriage as the marriage was performed by the Holy Prophet in accordance with the will of God, it could not be anything but an ideal marriage. As an ideal marriage it should have been a happy marriage. In this context two aspects of the case need special consideration. One is the economic factor and the other is the temperamental factor. Now, having seen all these, you may accept or reject them ONLY if you can give proof of more authentic hadiths about these incidences. Most of this history is culled from Sahih Bukhari, and the commentary given by established Islamic teachers. So, my friends please keep asking questions that attack the very morality that I cherish in Islam, so that I can put to test my knowledge about my beliefs. Thanks |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by Gwaine(m): 11:00am On Jul 03, 2006 |
@ajia23, Good morning. Could I offer my appreciation for your calm and frank response just above. In the spirit of good dialogue, I'll temper my inputs with the same. I'm also challenged by some of the genuine enquiries raised by non-Christians concerning the Christian faith, and I admit my limited understanding and human weakness in some of those concerns. Good to know in all that you take the time to look into the matters presented, so we could all reason from various perspectives as to the reason for our convictions and persuasions. I completely agree with you that principles are the basis of our search for truth and life of faith and not a fastiduous and often sentimental attachment to dogma. I look forward to more seasoned discourses with you, and will do my best to convey the same calmness you've offered here. |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by belloti(m): 2:37pm On Jul 03, 2006 |
Gwaine: Nice Statements |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by Nobody: 8:03am On Jul 04, 2006 |
I am a new comer here but from what I've read so far on this thread I have nothing but great respect and admiration for you Ajia 23 on your maturity. If your Muslim brothers could be encouraged to use similar approach in dealing with issues,we can at least co habit peaceably without bloodshed. In ancient culture (sadly still practiced in northern Nigeria) women were considered ripe for marriage in their early teens so I would hardly fault your prophet for what obtained in his days. We need to see more of the peace loving aspect of your religion,so far all we've seen is war,you tell us it promotes peace,you need to prove it and we need to see those imams and Muslim clerics come out openly to caution their folks and condemn the killings. Enough is enough. My family have lived in Northern Nigeria for years and some have been killed in the carnages in the northern states so I speak as one affected. There is an Igbo saying translated to mean when dem carry another person dead body,e be like say dem carry firewood'. Christians don't go joy killing because Jesus was dissed.He is man and God enough to fight his battles. All we are saying is that the Muslim world must take that same stand if they ever have any chance of not being generalized as terrorists. The killings of innocent Muslims in Aba and Onitsha though provoked,were not necessary.They (the Muslims killed) did nothing wrong. One more point I must add is that I've met and interacted with several European and Indian Muslims that have been blessings to my family and I here in the States so I try so much not to generalize. The Nigerian Muslim violence could be clouded with the frustration and hopelessness we face in Nigeria then again how do we explain the suicide bombings or the celebrations thereafter in the middle east? All I'm saying is that we can co exist peacefully. Like someone once said,if the pills meant for curing headaches ends up having a side effect of brain aneurysm,it may be time to return to the drawing boards |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by diyobdw(f): 4:31pm On Jul 04, 2006 |
Hey am on the fence here but babyosisi:Do you know this is also done by xtains , easterners to be precise? But yeah, like your ending line babyosisi: |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by 4getme1(m): 8:31pm On Jul 04, 2006 |
There's something that's often a marvel to me in the historicity of Islam. Most authorities within the Islamic tradition are not agreed concerning the dates of certain crucial events in the lives and religious careers of the founders of the religion. Take, for instance, Aisha's age when she was married to the Prophet Muhammad: most Islamic authorities believe she was 6 or 7 years old at bethrotal and just 9 y.o. at the consumation of the marriage. Others argue that she must have been anywhere between 18 and 22 when she was married to Muhammad. At best, one is left to wonder about the discrepancies especially when these figures were given by Islamic historians themselves. Again, in the case of the Prophet's daughter, Fatima, most Muslim authorities would argue that she was far older than the tender age popularly given. But really, how old was Fatima when she got married to Ali (Muhammad's cousin/nephew)? From a few sampled answers, we get the following: (a) Fatima was believed to have been around 9 years old when she got married to Ali and died at just over 18 years of age. (b) A few base their argument on 'famous tradition' and peg the age at 15 years old; (b) Others argue that she was somewhere between 18 and 22 years old. The point is, why is it difficult even among Muslims to have a consensus on the historicity of events in Islam? Plus, in reading through the hadith and other Islamic literature, one wonders at the various inconsistent practices observed among Muhammad and his adherents/companions in matters having to do with women ('inconsistent', at least, to me). I don't mean to cause anyone's blood boiling again, but could Muslims help enlighten us about the following from the Qur'an and hadith: # what is considered the acceptable age of marriage for women in Islam? # how many wives (maximum number) is a Muslim man supposed to marry according to Islamic tenets? # would Muslims consider the Prophet Muhammad to have followed what he preached to others on this subject? # if he did not follow the tenets of his preaching on this matter, what possible explanations could there be for that? Answers would be appreciated from Muslims and anyone else who could help shed light on the above concerns. |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by ajia23(m): 11:16pm On Jul 04, 2006 |
4get_me What does historicity mean? Historical Authenticity? Now substitute this into your earlier posts, when you make corrections then you can rephrase your questions. |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by Nobody: 1:42am On Jul 05, 2006 |
4get me,you may never get those questions answered by any Nigerian Muslims. Pedophilia is wrong and a crime against young boys and girls and I know every well thinking Muslim must agree with me or else we have a huge problem. Muslims from a more enlightened background and in other countries don't practice child marriage that much. Iraq though mostly Muslims was a secular state and marrying one adult wife was the law. In my opinion,any grown man not man enough to want to marry a grown woman should be castrated, period. 18 years of age is universally accepted as an age of consent,hence in most countries,18 year olds can vote and can be voted for. Pedophilia disguised as marriage has wrecked havoc in the lives of my fellow Nigerian women,mostly Muslim,hurts my heart because they were young innocent girls who had no choices in the matter,forced(SINCE A MINOR CANNOT GIVE CONSENT) to such union often by their own fathers in exchange for rams and goats. http://www.sim.org/categorylist.asp?fun=12&fun2=1&prid=146 This is not a Muslim Christian issue but a an ignorance issue and we as Nigerians ought to condemn it Christians or Muslims. |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by 4getme1(m): 6:34am On Jul 05, 2006 |
@ajia23, What in my post don't you understand? The sentence following the word 'historicity' explains it, so probably you didn't quite understand it or you had no answers. @babyosisi, I appreciate your response and am one who discountenances pedophilia in whatever form - even though some are convinced that the Jews practised it at one time as an injunction from Moses (I don't see how that squares with the verses they quote to support that notion). However, the thrust of my recent post was not so much about the ages at which Aisha and Fatima were married; but I'm more concerned about the polygamous tendencies that seems to present itself in my reading of hadith and other Islamic literature. Thus my questions. Some Muslims are persuaded that in Islam a man could marry up to 4 wives; very few feel that they could take more provided that they could afford to maintain them; but more and more Muslims I meet in Europe and the USA are persuaded that a Muslim man should take just one wife. Pedophilia is one thing; polygamy is another. The second of these concerns is what my questions were aiming at. |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by belloti(m): 1:11pm On Jul 05, 2006 |
Why is there so much emphasis about the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salallahu Alayhi Wasallam)'s marriage To Aisha(AS)? Thats just one aspect of his glorious life. If the teachings of Islams seem vague to some of our christian brothers i guess they dont need to ponder over it because they are not bound by any means to accept it. I am sure there is no possible way we can explain this significant historical episode to those who chosed not to understand or appreciate the historical relevance of the marriage. What i want to stress here is that " Its an Islamic thing exclusively for muslims". If you are not a muslim we owe you no explanation and we dont solicit for your acceptance of the concept. Lets move on with other less complex and more explicit issues |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by 4getme1(m): 1:56pm On Jul 05, 2006 |
belloti: Simply for one thing: it is a question of morality and thus a valid one to be asked about a 'prophet' who claims to have brought a moral message to the world. Enquiries from Christians pondering over Islamic tenets are valid for some reasons: # the founder of Islam (Muhammad) purports to have been sent by the same 'God' who gave the Law to Moses and the Gospel to Jesus; thereby he wants us to believe that Islam derives its credence from the Judaic and Christian heritages; # the founder of Islam claims to be the last of a long line of Biblical prophets; thus, he wants us to believe that he was sent by that same 'God' who sent those prophets, although his message fundamentally deviates from theirs; # the founder of Islam pursued his career in a different fashion as well as lived quite contrary to the calling of the holy prophets we read of in the Bible; hence, it's pertinent to ask why this was so - especially in regards to the present enquiry of child brides (if there's any truth in it) and some issues considered questionable in his links with women; # the founder of Islam denies the fundamental messages of both Judaism and Christianity, and goes so far as to make people believe that while the Jews and Christians have apostatized from their faiths, he had come with his religion to supercede them and claiming that to be the "true" religion. For anyone to consider the claims of the Prophet of Islam as valid, questions must be asked - or where we keep quiet, then there's a feeling attachment to dogma that raises more questions than answers. Pardon me, but if any prophet has lived somewhat contradictory to what points to a holy calling, then we want to know why that kind of living should pass unnoticed and unquestioned, especially when he purports to have been sent by the same God who discountenanced such questionable links with women. It may be one more aspect of 'his glorious life'; but what makes it "glorious" if it fails the standard that he himself preached by 'revelation'? It may be vague to non-Muslims, but for the Prophets claim to stand at all, they have to be examined. This is not putting the Prophet to the rigours of 'scientific proof', but questions like these are rather a matter of morality. I have not "chosen not to understand or appreciate the historical relevance" of any aspect of Muhammad - and that's why I keep asking questions, no less of which is: "what is actually the historical relevance of the marriage, and the relevance in his connection with the many women we read of in Islamic history?" You may not owe non-Muslims any explanations for the "Islamic thing exclusively for Muslims" nor solicit for the acceptance for any concept among the hundreds of others in Islam. If you apply that to other faiths and beliefs, then in just the same manner, Christianity does not owe any explanations to Muslim apologists who continue to misrepresent the Christian faith on many of their websites and teachings in other media. It's either this exclusivity is valid only on the basis that it has nothing to do with other faiths (in which case, Muhammad's claim to have been sent by the same 'God' who sent the Biblical prophets is untenable and without substance); or, the exclusivity does not in fact stand to reason as long as the Qur'an purports to have been linked with the Biblical 'God' and prophets', which in fact it does not. As long as the Prophet indulged in some very "complex" issues with women - especially in regards to being portrayed as 'holy' by his followers and therefore makes it a moral enquiry - it is relevant to both address this and any other that may come up, even the more explicit issues. |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by Nobody: 3:05pm On Jul 05, 2006 |
@belotti, You are not helping matters when you choose to dismiss issues with a wave of the hand and expect it to go away. How do you ever expect Christians or just the regular average Joe to understand you? If anything, questions like this should compel you to do some research and reading into your holy books and come up with answers. Ask questions of those who know better than you do. This is a moral issue and if you say no one should concentrate on it and then you tell us Islam is the best religion in the world,we are wondering what you really mean? @ajia23,even some sunday sunday Christians practice polygamy and I've heard some cite David as an example. Polygamy is nothing but man's desire to satisfy his flesh. And in Islam where the laws still see women as below men,in some Muslim countries ,women cannot drive,be in authority over men and cannot even be a witness in court. I don't know if questions relating to these issues will infuriate you,but they need to be asked because as long as the answers are not forthcoming,you have absolutely no chance of convincing anyone of this peaceful religion you proclaim. I'm sorry for putting you guys on the spot but you must know that the world needs those answers. |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by belloti(m): 3:56pm On Jul 05, 2006 |
The Point, my friends, is you dont seem to agree with our answers or rather you are only looking for grey areas that you alledgedly assumes to be loopholes. What we are talking about is an issue in islamic faith and i dont see how you guys will ever willingly accept an islamic opinion. The Holy Qur'an says "To you is your religion and to us is ours". there's no need for scrutiny of something you are not ready to believe. Thats my point |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by Nobody: 3:58pm On Jul 05, 2006 |
And believe me we do have a lot of unanswered questions . Let me pose a few. 1. what would cause a grown man in the name of Allah to blow up himself and a host of others he doesn't know for a reward of virgins. 2.why would a barbaric act of cutting of a body part e.g hand be a worthy punishment for stealing a chicken. 3.why would a woman be subjected to wearing black clothing in 100 degrees plus temperature walking behind her husband in white shortsleeves and pants. 4.How on earth could it be ever permissible to carry out 'honor killing',an act of killing a girl suspected of not being a virgin at marriage to cleanse the family name. 5.why would a woman convicted of adultery be sentenced to die why the man goes free for lack of evidence even though we have a child to prove it. 6.why the militancy and the innate urge to kill and wipe out anyone who dares disagree, question or even turn from the religion. 7.Look at what is happening in Sudan,middle east and Northern Nigeria,what is the common factor. 8.Why is it not possible for other people to practice their faiths freely in Muslim countries but yet Muslims want their voices heard and demands met in the west and everywhere else. 9.why is the word Islam synonymous with terrorism,could there be something in the teachings causing these untold side effects. 10.Why do the women suffer so greatly and have no voices in their own affairs. I'm sure these questions are on the minds of many non Muslims and hopefully some Muslims and I hope someone can attempt to answer them. |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by Nobody: 4:37pm On Jul 05, 2006 |
@ belloti,I would ask you this question and then leave this topic to rest,I promise. Have you or have you heard any Muslim question this fact of Muhammed possibly marrying an underage girl since we all agree here that some of the historical accounts say she was only 6 at marriage and 9 at its consumation (I am horrified at this and pray it is not true). If you or any one yoiu know have ever questioned this ,what answers where you given? Like I earlier said,marriage at early teens was very common back in those days and was generally accepted as O.K so if Aisha was at least a teenager I would feel much better. |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by 4getme1(m): 4:52pm On Jul 05, 2006 |
belloti: No; rather, the point is that answers have not been forthcoming and most often than not, we are asked to just let the matter rest under the idea that it is a "complex" aspect of an exclusive religion. Babyosisi, in my opinion, has asked some relevant questions; but put together, these questions are not just a matter of interpretation, but one of morality. I respect the right of any religion to interpret their tenets in their own exclusive way; but it doesn't seem to make any sense when questions are asked and answers are not forthcoming, and we are rather asked to just look away from them. Moving on from the child bride issue, I'm seriously concerned that a 'holy prophet' had some rather behind-the-scenes connection with women in such a way that contradicts the tone of his 'holy calling'. I've been a bit reserved up until now about mentioning them explicitly; but if there are answers about this as well, I wait to see them provided. I'd appreciate them when they are given. |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by Nobody: 8:30pm On Jul 05, 2006 |
4get_me,good talk my friend. But frankly I don't care if Muhammed had 666 wives or 1.He is not the first to be polygamous and wouldn't be the last.He was a man afterall. I just want the Muslims to stop taking out their frustrations on their Christian neighbors in Nigeria every now and then. We are getting sick and tired of such barbaric acts. Someone had suggested the Christians in the North be armed heavily to protect themselves from these bloodthirsty hooligans,this is 2006 and they are acting like people in the stone age. I've often heard arguments where some Muslims gave examples of the the crusade era and killings by the catholic church in many centuries past to counter these.Offering a 15th century example to events happening in the 21st century scares me even more. Shall we ever see an end to this turmoil? |
| Re: Da Vinci Code: A Lesson To Muslims by ajia23(m): 8:51pm On Jul 05, 2006 |
babyosisi and 4get_me I am so sorry I may not be able to provide answers to some of your query at this time because most of them have been treated in the pat in this thread and other threads such as ' similarities and differences, ', DaVinci code:lessons to Muslims etc. So if you want answers to some of your questions, may be you should go and review all the threads I mentioned. Good luck in your search. When you do discover some of the responses, I will be glad to explain any grey areas. |
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