Jesus didn't go to Egypt to learn to read and write. He didn't learn, that's why the people were surprised when he read and explained scriptures in the Synagogue.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, Paul were educated. Peter and John most likely weren't, since they were fishermen. It is believed in some theological circles that Mark wrote 1st and 2nd Peter for Peter, and that the Gospel according to Mark was actually Peter's account of what happened. Mark was a little boy all the while Jesus was around and Peter must have filled him in on the details. John might have had someone in the church write his letters for him. Paul did the same several times too. If I have an idea and dictate it to someone to write or type it for me, it doesn't change the fact that i am the author, except if the person edits it to accomodate his own ideas. This couldn't have happened in the case of the biblical letters of Paul and John and even Peter, because for one the ppl who wrote these letters were committed members of the church. Plus, these apostles usually visited the churches to whom the letters were addressed and must have had to explain the contents of their letters. they would have known if there were any errors

ajia23:

At that time, everybody said Jesus is the Son of God. I mean, in the 70's that's all we used to hear. Allof a sudden in the 80's and 90's, we started hearing Jesus is God. And of course the bible still provided evidence for this. Methinks that whenever the rich countries feel like changing the doctrine that is taught especially in protestant churches, they call a few misiters and pastors together, show them the new doctrine, and back them up with money. Before long, it catches like wild fire.

The point you're missing is that Christianity is all about following Jesus Christ as revealed by the Bible. We can't just come up with a new theory and say this is christianity, we test all truths by the bible. However, it is possible for a person or church to suddenly realize that they have been overlooking some important thing in the bible. The bible doesn't change, and it is the same with christianity. We christians are humans and are prone to change.

ajia23:

During the time of Jesus, evidence available in history books show that he was considered human. 400 years later, he became divine by an act of a meeting in 325 A.D. You see, that's how it works. And it's this problem of declaring anything that contradicts their beliefs as devlish that plunged mankind into the dark ages. Thank God for the scientific renaissance, we still would have been in bondage.

Like I said, the bible can't change. The bible not only confirms the divinity of Jesus, but tells us that any spirit that denies it is the spirit of the antichrist. This is why Christians declare anything contrary to this as devilish; the bible has told us just that and we believe and accept the authority of the bible. Jesus was considered divine while He was alive by those who believed in Him. Afterall, He equated Himself with God, who isn't human. The people regarded Him as a great prophet, but His followers believed He was God.

ajia23:

They claim muslims are intolerant, and are quick to point out that we are prone to fights, but forget the immediate past history of christianity and it's flag bearers.

The catholics are the ones who killed ppl, and they even killed protestant christians. This issue comes up whenever ppl talk about muslims being intolerant. The main issue is we're in a very civilized and much less conservative world, yet muslims don't seem to realize this. It's easy for you to talk about tolerance on the internet, but let's take a look at the real world. The Islamic countries have some of the worst oppression issues. Women are being suppressed and oppressed, someone made a film about it and was killed by muslims. Muslim apostates are condemned to death, even by learned people. People get killed for carrying bibles on the streets.

It's funny when ppl say christianity doesn't allow ppl think. It's only in countries where christianity is the major religion (whether d ppl still practice or not) that you see a diversity of opinions. Can homosexuals go to any Islamic country and ask for rights? Can ppl insult God in Islamic countries? See what happens whenever someone insults Mohammed and compare to the many times Jesus gets insulted, particularly in the US - a country built on christian principles. Look at all the ppl behind civilization, those who invented one thing or the other, and especially those who proposed new ideas that changed the world e.g. Darwin. You see that majority of them were from christian backgrounds, some even ministers' children. Christianity is a religion of liberty, and that is why you see a lot of things in christian groups that you may never see in muslim groups. For example, even though fornication must be occuring in the muslim areas of this country, it is hidden. This is unlike in the south of Nigeria, or in the West, were it isn't seen as a big deal and most ppl wont even use that word.

ajia23:

It may interest you to know that God said a certain group of christians would enter heaven, in the Quran. He said they were christians, and they were Sabians, they believed in their lord, and they will be admitted into Gardens under which rivers flow. These particular group of christians are the monotheist. Not the polytheists that are prevalent today. And God even allows muslims to marry them, nd eat their food. How much tolerant can a religion get?

Christians are NOT polytheists. No one can claim to be a christian and be a polytheist, as the bible talks about only ONE God. When christians say we worship a different God, what they actually mean is other religions' descriptions of God are so different from ours that it might lead one to believe they are talking about another God. All christians, however, believe there's only one God.

Hi GL do you know that some of your points are not the same asTayoD
Are you now saying that peter is the rock. or not?
At the end of a long day it dose not matter who they killed, all blood is red.Killing is killing.
You say the people were surprised that Jesus could read . i say if he learned that in Egypt maybe when he came back he was not allowed by his parents because the did not want attention.
.And do you know something there are more ways of killing someone than with the sword.
The church that forbids birthcontrol for eg. and that in very poor countries.

@mamaput,

Hello. I don't follow your reasoning in relation to the topic. What exactly are you trying to say?

And then when you make a point, please understand that some people may not actually be representing the true essence of a religion or faith, as they often are deviating from their stipulated tenets.

Peter was not the rock referred to in Matt. 16:18 - the Rock is and always has been Christ Himself; and it was the confession of who Christ is that the Lord said He was going to build His Church.

Your point does not follow - how do you come round to the idea that Jesus might have learned to read in Egypt, but that His parents did not allow Him when He came back?

You can't compare the two religions (Christianity and Islam) - the Qur'an enjoined prophet Mohammed to wield the sword and kill people in order to propagate Islam as mlks_baby has helped us understand better in her rejoinders; whereas, Christ did not enjoin the killing of anyone for the propagation of Christianity. People still kill in the name of Christianity, but where is that a doctrine in the New Testament?

The examples you're referring to has more to do with Roman Catholic history than Protestantism. I hope you'd not confuse the issues on the topic of this thread; and there's already quite a number of threads debating issues between Catholicism and Protestantism - click on any of these links:

- Are Catholics Really Christians?
- Catholic Statues And Images
- Should We Use Images And Symbols In Our Worship?
- Roman Catholicism -- Christian or Pagan?
- Do Catholics Believe in Being Born Again?

Blessings.

@mlks_baby

Even though you kinda muddled things up, I will clarify them now, though I think it may have been unintentional.

Firstly, I will concede to you that I was wrong when I said the hadiths say Judas was substituted for Jesus (ASW). This can be not be farther from the truth. In actual fact, it was some christian sect in 150 AD who held this belief,. Prominent among these sects were the Basilidans. Also, the Gospel of Barnabas supports this claim. The Islamic point of view seeks not to even lend credence to the fact that he was ever crucified, and thus does not try to harmonise the biblical story with the Islamic views. What the Quran states instead was that an illusion was created in the mind of his supposed killers that he was killed, and even the Jews-his enemies, started to believe that story afterwards.

Since you said we could quote as we pleased, I'll just give you this reference.

Q4:157 And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah Jesus, son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah-but they killed him not, nor crucified him, biut the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They follow nothing but conjecture. For surely, they killed him not.

4:158 But Allah raised him (Jesus) up (with body and soul) unto Himself (and He Jesus(ASW) is in the Heavens). And Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All wise.

Now these are two of the verses that states what happened to Jesus in the Islamic point of view. However my allusion to the person killed being Judas was totally my error. I regret it.

If you want to know more about how Islam see Jesus, the following sums it up. Even Miracles not described in the Bible are described in the Quran and Hadiths-


Mary
Receives
News of Jesus
While Mary was praying in the temple, an angel in the form of a man appeared
before her. Filled with terror, she tried to flee, praying: "Verily! I seek refuge with
the Most Beneficent (Allah) from you, if you do fear Allah."

(The angel) said: "I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you
the gift of a righteous son."

She said: "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I
unchaste?"

He said: "So (it will be), your Lord said: That is easy for me (Allah): And (We
wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (Allah), and it is a
matter (already) decreed, (by Allah). Surah 19: 18-21

The Brith of
Jesus
The angel's visit caused Mary great anxiety, which increased as the months went
by. How could she face giving birth to a child without having a husband? Later,
she felt life kicking inside her. With a heavy heart, she left the temple and went
to Nazareth, the city in which she had been born where she settled in a simple
farm house to avoid the public.

But fear and anxiety did not leave her. She was from a noble and pious family.
Her father had not been an evil man nor was her mother an impure woman. How
could she prevent tongues from wagging about her honor?

After some months, she could not bear the mental strain any longer. Burdened
with a heavy womb, she left Nazareth, not knowing where to go to be away from
this depressing atmosphere.

She had not gone far, when she was overtaken by the pains of childbirth. She
sat down against a dry palm tree, and here she gave birth to a son. Looking at
her beautiful baby, she was hurt that she had brought him into the world without
a father. She exclaimed: "I wish I had died before this happened and had
vanished into nothingness!"

Suddenly, she heard a voice nearby: "Grieve not, your Lord has placed a rivulet
below, and shake the trunk of this tree, from which ripe dates will fall. So eat and
drink and regain the strength you have lost; and be of good cheer, for what you
see is the power of Allah, Who made the dry palm tree regain life, in order to
provide food for you." For a while she was comforted by Allah's miracle, for it was
a sure sign of her innocence and purity.

Mary Returns
to the City
with Jesus
She decided to return to the city. However, her fears also returned. What was
she going to tell the people? As if sharing his mother's worry, the baby began to
speak: "If you meet any person say: 'I have vowed to fast for The Beneficent and
may not speak to any human today."' With this miracle, Mary felt at ease.

As she had expected, her arrival in the city with a newborn baby in her arms
aroused the curiosity of the people. They scolded her: 'This is a terrible sin that
you have committed." She put her finger to her lips and pointed to the child. They
asked: "How can we speak to a newborn baby?" To their total amazement, the
child began to speak clearly: "I am Allah's servant. Allah has given me the Book,
and has made me a prophet, and has blessed me wherever I may be, and has
enjoined on me prayers and alms-giving as long as I live. Allah has made me
dutiful towards she who has borne me. He has not made me arrogant nor
unblessed. Peace unto me the day I was born, the day I die and the day I shall
be raised alive."

Most of the people realized that the baby was unique, for if Allah wills something,
He merely says "Be" and it happens. Of course, there were some who regarded
the baby's speech as a strange trick, but at least Mary could now stay in
Nazareth without being harassed.

Mary
Receives
News of Jesus
- Qur'anic
Allah the Exalted revealed: And mention in the Book (the Qur'an, 0 Muhammad
the story of) Mary, when she withdrew in seclusion from her family to a place
facing east. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent to
her Our Ruh (angel Gabriel), and he appeared before her in the form of a man in
all respects.

She said: "Verily! I seek refuge with the Most Beneficent (Allah) from you, if you
do fear Allah."

(The angel) said: "I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you
the gift of a righteous son."

She said: "How can Ihave a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I
unchaste?" He said: 'So (it will be), your Lord said: That is easy for Me (Allah):
and (We wish) to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (Allah),
and it is a matter (already) decreed. (by Allah)." Surah 19: 16-21

The Birth of
Jesus -
Qur'anic
So she conceived him, and she withdrew with him to a far place (ie., Bethlehem
valley, about four to six miles from Jerusalem). And the pains of childbirth drove
her to the trunk of a palm tree. She said: "Would that I had died before this, and
had been forgotten and out of sight!"

Then (the babe "Jesus" or Gabriel) cried unto her from below her, saying: "Grieve
not! Your Lord has provided a water stream under you; and shake the trunk of
palm tree to wards you, it will let fall fresh ripe dates upon you. So eat and drink
and be glad, and if you see any human being, say. 'Verily! I have vowed a fast
unto the Most Beneficent (Allah) so I shall not speak to any human being this
day. Surah 22-26

Mary and
Jesus Return
to the City -
Qur'anic
Then she brought him (the baby) to her people, carrying him. They said: "0 Mary!
Indeed you have brought a thing Fariyya (an unheard mighty thing). 0 sister (i.e.
the like) of Aaron (not the brother of Moses, but he was another pious man at
the time of Mary)! Your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor
was your mother an unchaste woman."

Then she pointed to him. They said: "How can we talk to one who is a child in the
cradle?"

He (Jesus) said: "Verily! I am a slave of Allah. He has given me the Scripture and
made me a Prophet; And He has made me blessed wheresoever I be, and has
enjoined on me prayer, and Zakat, as long as Ilive, and dutiful to my mother, and
made me not arrogant, unblest. And Salam (peace) be upon me the day I was
born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!" Surah 19: 27-33

Allah's
Message
About Jesus -
Qur'anic
Such is Jesus, son of Mary. (It is) a statement of truth, about which they doubt
(or dispute). It befits not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son (this
refers to the slander of Christians against Allah, by saying that Jesus is the son
of Allah). Glorified (and Exalted be He above all that they associate with Him).
When He decrees a thing. He only says to it, "Be!" - and it is.

(Jesus said): 'And verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord. So worship Him (Alone).
That is the Straight Path. (Allah Religion of Islamic Monotheism which He did
ordain for all of His Prophets)."

Then the sects differed (i.e., the Christians about Jesus), so woe unto the
disbelievers (those who gave false witness saying that Jesus is the son of Allah)
from the meeting of a great Day (i.e., the Day of Resurrection, when they will be
thrown in the blazing Fire).

How clearly will they (polytheists and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) see
and hear, the Day when they will appear before Us! But the Zalimun (polytheists
and wrongdoers) today are in plain error. And warn them (0 Muhammad) of the
Day of grief and regrets, when the case has been decided, while (now) they are
in a state of carelessness, and they believe not. Surah 19: 34-39

Some Stories
About Mary's
Pregnancy
It was said that Joseph the Carpenter was greatly surprised when he knew the
story, so he asked Mary: "Can a tree come to grow without a seed?" She said:
"Yes, the one which Allah created for the first time." He asked her again: "Is it
possible to bear a child without a male partner?" She said: "Yes, Allah created
Adam without male or female!"

It was also said that, while pregnant, Mary went one day to her aunt, who
reported that she felt as if she was pregnant. Mary in turn said that she, too,
was feeling as if she was pregnant. Then her aunt said: "I can see what is in my
womb prostrating to what is in your womb."

Jesus Upsets
the Jews
The Jewish priests felt this child Jesus was dangerous, for they felt that the
people would turn their worship to Allah the Almighty alone, displacing the
existing Jewish tenets. Consequently, they would lose their authority over the
people. Therefore, they kept the miracle of Jesus's speech in infancy as a secret
and accused Mary of a great misdeed.

Jesus's Ability
to Debate
As Jesus grew, the signs of prophethood began to increase. He could tell his
friends what kind of supper waited for them at home and what they had hidden
and where. When he was twelve years old, he accompanied his mother to
Jerusalem. There he wandered into the temple and joined a crowd listening to
the lectures of the Rabbis (Jewish priests). The audience were all adults, but he
was not afraid to sit with them. After listening intently, he asked questions and
expressed his opinion. The learned rabbis were disturbed by the boy's boldness
and puzzled by the questions he asked, for they were unable to answer him.
They tried to silence him, but he ignored their attempts and continued to express
his views. Jesus became so involved in this exchange that he forgot he was
expected back home.

In the meantime, his mother went home, thinking that he might have gone back
with relatives or friends. When she arrived, she discovered that he was not
there, so she returned to the city to look for him. At last she found him in the
temple, sitting among the learned, conversing with them. He appeared to be
quite at ease, as if he had been doing this all his life. Mary got angry with him for
causing her worry. He tried to assure her that all the arguing and debating with
the learned had made him forget the time.

Jesus Does
Not Observe
Sabbath
Jesus grew up to manhood. It was Sabbath, a day of complete rest: no fire could
be lit or extinguished, nor could females plait their hair. Moses had commanded
that Saturday be dedicated to the worship of Allah. However, the wisdom behind
the Sabbath and its spirit had gone, and only the letter remained in the Jews,
hearts. Also, they thought that the Sabbath was kept in heaven, and that the
People of Israel had been chosen by Allah only to observe the Sabbath.

They made a hundred things unlawful on Saturday even self-defense or calling a
doctor to save a patient who was in bad condition. This is how their life was
branded by such hypocrisy. Although the Pharisees were guardians of the law,
they were ready to sell it when their interests were involved so as to obtain
personal gains. There was, for example, a rule which prohibited a journey of
more than one thousand yards on the Sabbath day. What do we expect of the
Pharisees in this case? The day before, they transferred their food and drink from
their homes two thousand yards away and erected a temporary house so that
from there they could travel a further thousand yards on the Sabbath day.

Jesus was on his way to the temple. Although it was the Sabbath, he reached
out his hand to pick two pieces of fruit to feed a hungry child. This was
considered to be a violation of the Sabbath law. He made a fire for the old
women to keep themselves warm from the freezing air. Another violation. He
went to the temple and looked around. There were twenty thousand Jewish
priests registered there who earned their living from the temple. The rooms of
the temple were full of them.

Jesus
Receives His
Prophethood
Jesus observed that the visitors were much fewer than the priests. Yet the
temple was full of sheep and doves which were sold to the people to be offered
as sacrifices. Every step in the temple cost the visitor money. They worshipped
nothing but money. In the temple the Pharisees and Sadducees acted as if it
were a market place, and these two groups always disagreed on everything.
Jesus followed the scene with his eyes and observed that the poor people who
could not afford the price of the sheep or dove were swept away like flies by the
Pharisees and Saducees. Jesus was astonished. Why did the priests burn a lot of
offerings inside the temple, while thousands of poor people were hungry outside
it?

On this blessed night, the two noble prophets John and Zechariah died, killed by
the ruling authority. On the same night, the revelation descended upon Jesus .
Allah the Exalted commanded him to begin his call to the children of Israel. To
Jesus, the life of ease was closed, and the page of worship and struggle was
opened.

Jesus's
Message
Like an opposing force, the message of Jesus came to denounce the practices of
the Pharisees and Saducees and to reinforce the Law of Moses. In the face of a
materialistic age of luxury and worship of gold, Jesus called his people to a nobler
life by word and deed. This exemplary life was the only way out of the
wretchedness and diseases of his age.

Jesus's call, from the beginning, was marked by its complete uprightness and
piety. It appealed to the soul, the inner being, and not to a closed system of
rules laid down by society.

Jesus continued inviting the people to Almighty Allah. His call was based on the
principle that there is no mediation between the Creator and His creatures.
However, Jesus was in conflict with the Jews' superficial interpretation of the
Torah. He said that he did not come to abrogate the Torah, but to complete it by
going to the spirit of its substance to arrive at its essence.

He made the Jews understand that the Ten Commandments have more value
than they imagined. For instance, the fifth commandment does not only prohibit
physical killing, but all forms of killing: physical, psychological, or spiritual. And the
sixth commandment does not prohibit adultery only in the sense of unlawful
physical contact between a man and a woman, but also prohibits all forms of
unlawful relations or acts that might lead to adultery. The eye commits adultery
when it looks at anything with passion.

Jesus
Denounces
Materialism
Jesus was therefore in confrontation with the materialistic people. He told them
to desist from hypocrisy, show and false praise. There was no need to hoard
wealth in this life. They should not preoccupy themselves with the goods of this
passing world; rather they must preoccupy themselves with the affairs of the
coming world because it would be everlasting.

Jesus told them that caring for this world is a sin, not fit for pious worshipers. The
disbelievers care for it because they do not know a better way. As for the
believers, they know that their sustenance is with Allah, so they trust in Him and
scorn this world.

Jesus continued to invite people to worship the Only Lord, Who is without
partner, just as he invited them to purify the heart and soul.

Jewish
Priests Try to
Embarrass
Jesus
His teaching annoyed the priests, for every word of Jesus was a threat to them
and their position, exposing their misdeeds.

The Roman occupiers had, at first, no intention of being involved in this religious
discord of the Jews because it was an internal affair, and they saw that this
dispute would distract the Jews from the question of the occupation.

However, the priests started to plot against Jesus. They wanted to embarrass
him and to prove that he had come to destroy the Mosaic Law. The Mosaic Law
provides that an adulteress be stoned to death. They brought him a Jewish
adulteress and asked Jesus: "Does not the law stipulate the stoning of the
adulteress?" Jesus answered: "Yes." They said: "This woman is an adulteress."
Jesus looked at the woman and then at the priests. He knew that they were
more sinful than she. They agreed that she should be killed according to Mosaic
Law, and they understood that if he was going to apply Mosaic Law, he would be
destroying his own rules of forgiveness and mercy.

Jesus understood their plan. He smiled and assented: "Whoever among you is
sinless can stone her." His voice rose in the middle of the Temple, making a new
law on adultery, for the sinless to judge sin. There was none eligible; no mortal
can judge sin, only Allah the Most Merciful.

As Jesus left the temple, the woman followed him. She took out a bottle of
perfume from her garments, knelt before his feet and washed them with perfume
and tears, and then dried his feet with her hair. Jesus turned to the woman and
told her to stand up, adding: "0 Lord, forgive her sins." He let the priests
understand that those who call people to Almighty Allah are not executioners. His
call was based on mercy for the people, the aim of all divine calls.

Jesus's Brings
the Dead to
Life
Jesus continued to pray to Allah for mercy on his people and to teach his people
to have mercy on one another and to believe in Allah.

Jesus continued his mission, aided by divine miracles. Some Qur'anic
commentators said that Jesus brought four people back from the dead: a friend
of his named Al-Azam, an old woman's son, and a woman's only daughter. These
three had died during his lifetime. When the Jews saw this they said: "You only
resurrect those who have died recently; perhaps they only fainted." They asked
him to bring back to life Sam the Ibn Noah.

When he asked them to show him his grave, the people accompanied him there.
Jesus invoked Allah the Exalted to bring him back to life and behold, Sam the Ibn
Noah came out from the grave gray-haired. Jesus asked: "How did you get gray
hair, when there was no aging in your time?" He answered: "0, Spirit of Allah, I
thought that the Day of Resurrection had come; from the fear of that day my hair
turned gray."

The Miracles
of Jesus -
Qur'anic
Allah the Almighty said: (Remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of
Resurrection): 'O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My Favor to you and to your
mother when I supported you with Ruh-ul-Qudus (Gabriel) so that you spoke to
the people in the cradle and in maturity and when I taught you writing Al-Hikmah
(the power of understanding), the Torah and the Gospel; and when you made
out of the clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My Permission, and you
breathed into it, and it became a bird by My Permission, and you healed those
born blind, and the lepers by My Permission, and when you brought forth the
dead by My Permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from you
(when they resolved to kill you) since you came unto them with clear proofs, and
the disbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.

And when I (Allah) put in the hearts of the disciples (of Jesus) to believe in Me
and My Messenger, they said: "We believe. And bear witness that we are
Muslims. " Surah 5: 110-111

Jesus's
Abilities and
Disciples -
Qur'anic
Almighty Allah also revealed: And He (Allah) will teach him (Jesus) the Book and
Al-Hikmah (i.e. the Sunna, the faultless speech of the Prophets, wisdom, etc.),
(and) the Torah and the Gospel.

And will make him (Jesus) a Messenger to the Children of Israel (saying): "I have
come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I design for you out of clay, as it
were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah
Leave; and I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to
life by Allah's leave. And I inform you of what you eat, and what you store in your
houses. Surely, therein is a sign for you, if you believe. And I have come
confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful to you part
of what was forbidden to you, and I have come to you with proof from your Lord.
So fear Allah and obey me. Truly! Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him
(Alone). This is the Straight Path."

Then when Jesus came to know of their disbelief he said: "Who will be my
helpers in Allah's Cause?" The disciples said: "We are the helpers of Allah; we
believe in Allah, and bear witness that we are Muslims (i.e. we submit to Allah)."

Our Lord! We believe in what You have sent down, and we follow the Messenger
(Jesus); so write us down among those who bear witness (to the truth i.e. La
ilaha ill Allah - none has the right to be worshiped but Allah).

And they (disbelievers) plotted (to kill Jesus), and Allah planned too. And Allah is
the Best of the planners. Surah 3: 48-54

Allah Sends
the Disciples
a Feast
Jesus continued calling people to Almighty Allah and laying down for them what
might be called "the law of the Spirit." Once when standing on a mountain
surrounded by his disciples, Jesus saw that those who believed in him were from
among the poor, the wretched, and the downtrodden, and their number was
small.

Some of the miracles which Jesus performed had been requested by his disciples,
such as their wish for a "holy table" to be sent down from heaven.

Allah the Exalted said: (Remember) when the disciples said: "0 Jesus, son of
Mary! Can your Lord send down to us a table spread (with food) from heaven?"
Jesus said: "Fear Allah, if you are indeed believers." They said: "We wish to eat
thereof and to be stronger in Faith, and to know that you have indeed told us
the truth and that we ourselves be its witnesses."

Jesus, son of Mary, said: "0 Allah, our Lord! Send us from heaven a table spread
(with food) that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a festival
and a sign from You; and provide us sustenance, for You are the Best of
sustainers." Allah said: "I am going to send it down unto you, but if any of you
after that disbelieves, then I will punish him with a torment such as Iha ye not
inflicted on anyone among (all) the Alamin (mankind and jinn)." Surah 5: 112-116

It was related that Jesus commanded his disciples to fast for thirty days; at the
end of it, they asked Jesus to bring food from heaven to break their fast. Jesus
prayed to Allah after his disciples had doubted Allah's power. The great table
came down between two clouds, one above and one below, while the people
watched. Jesus said: "0 Lord, make it a mercy and not a cause of distress." So it
fell between Jesus's hands, covered with a napkin.

Jesus suddenly prostrated and his disciples with him. They sensed a fragrance
which they had never smelled before. Jesus said: 'The one who is the most
devout and most righteous may uncover the table, that we might eat of it to
thank Allah for it." They said: "0 Spirit of Allah, you are the most deserving."

Jesus stood up, then performed ablution and prayed before uncovering the table,
and behold, there was a roasted fish. The disciples said: "0 Spirit of Allah, is this
the food of this world or of Paradise?" Jesus said to his disciples: "Did not Allah
forbid you to ask questions? It is the divine power of Allah the Almighty Who
said: 'Be,' and it was. It is a sign from Almighty Allah warning of great punishment
for unbelieving mortals of the world. This is the kernel of the matter."

It is said that thousands of people partook of it, and yet they never exhausted it.
A further miracle was that the blind and lepers were cured.

The Day of the Table became one of the holy days for the disciples and followers
of Jesus. Later on, the disciples and followers forgot the real essence of the
miracles, and so they worshipped Jesus as a god.

Allah's
Questions to
Jesus
Almighty Allah asserted: And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of
Resurrection): "0 Jesus son of Mary! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my
mother as two gods besides Allah?"' He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for
me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely
have known it. You know what is in my inner-self though I do not know what is in
Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All-Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.
Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allah) did command me to say:
'Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord', And I was a witness over them while I
dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over
them, and You are a Witness to all things. (This is a great admonition and
warning to the Christians of the whole world). If you punish them, they are Your
slaves, and if You forgive them, Verily You, only You are the All-Mighty the All-
Wise."

Allah will say: 'This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs
are Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise) - they shall abide therein
forever. Allah is pleased with them and they with Him. That is the great success
(Paradise). To Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all
that is therein, and He is Able to do all things." Surah 5: 116-120

The Jews Plot
to Kill Jesus
Jesus went on with his mission until vice knew that its throne was threatening to
fall. So the forces of evil accused him of magic, infringement of the Mosaic Law,
allegiance with the devil; and when they saw that the poor people followed him,
they began to scheme against him.

The Sanhedrin, the highest judicial and eclesiastical council of the Jews, began to
meet to plot against Jesus. The plan took a new turn. When the Jews failed to
stop Jesus's call, they decided to kill him. The chief priests held secret meetings
to agree on the best way of getting rid of Jesus.

While they were in such a meeting, one of the twelve apostles of Jesus, Judas
Iscariot, went to them and asked: "What will you give me if I deliver him to you?"
Judas bargained with them until they agreed to give him thirty pieces of silver
known as shekels. The plot was laid for the capture and murder of Jesus.

It was said that the high priest of the Jews tore his garment at the meeting,
claiming that Jesus had denied Judaism. The tearing of clothes at that time was a
sign of disgust.

The Torture of
Jesus
The priests had no authority to pass the death sentence at that time, so they
convinced the Roman governor that Jesus was plotting against the security of
the Roman Empire and urged him to take immediate action against him. The
governor ordered that Jesus be arrested.

According to the Book of Matthew, Jesus was arrested and the council of the high
priests passed the death sentence upon him. Then, they began insulting him,
spitting on his face and kicking him.

It was the Roman custom for the condemned to be flogged before they were
executed. So Pilate, the Roman governor, ordered that Jesus be flogged. The
Mosaic Law stipulates forty lashes, but the Romans had no limit, and they were
brutal lashes. After that, Jesus was handed to the soldiers for crucifixion. They
took off his clothes and kept them. They put a crown of thorns on his head to
mock him. According to custom he carried his cross on his back to increase his
suffering.

Jesus's
Crucifixion -
Bible Version
Finally, they reached a place called Golgotha, meaning the Place of Skulls, outside
the walls of Jerusalem. Instead of giving him a cup of wine diluted with scent to
help lessen the pain on the cross, the soldiers gave Jesus a cup of vinegar
diluted with gall. Then they crucified him and, as a further mockery, two thieves
with him. So it is written in the Bible.

Jesus's
Crucifixion -
Qur'anic
But the faith of Islam came with views quite different from that of the extant
gospels with regards to both the end of Jesus and his nature.

The Glorious Qur'an affirms that Allah the Exalted did not permit the people of
Israel to kill Jesus or crucify him. What happened was that Allah saved him from
his enemies and raised him to heaven. They never killed Jesus; they killed
someone else.

Allah the Almighty declared: And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed
Messiah Jesus, son of Mary the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor
crucified him, but the resemblance of Jesus was put over another man (and they
killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no
(certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed
him not (i.e. Jesus, son of Mary): But Allah raised him (Jesus) up (with his body
and soul) unto Himself (and he is in the heavens). And Allah is Ever All-Powerful,
all- Wise.

And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must
believe in him (Jesus, son of Mary as only a Messenger of Allah and a human
being), before his (Jesus or a Jew's or a Christian's) death (at the time of the
appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he (Jesus)
will be a witness against them. Surah 4: 157-159

Almighty Allah also revealed: And (remember) when Allah said: "0 Jesus! I will
take you and raise you to Myself and clear you (of the forged statement that
Jesus is Allah son) of those who disbelieve, and I will make those who follow you
(Monotheists, who worship none but Allah) superior to those who disbelieve (in
the Oneness of Allah, or disbelieve in some of His Messengers, e.g. Muhammad,
Jesus, Moses, etc., or in His Holy Books, e.g. the Torah, the Gospel, the Qur'an)
till the Day of Resurrection. Then you will return to Me and I will judge between
you in the matters in which you used to dispute. Surah 3: 55

And in continuing with the tradition of quoting, I will prove to you from the Hadiths that Muhammed was infact a very peaceful person. All those verses that you quoted were realeased in phases, and released as appropriate to the situations prevailing. And you were talking about my redership skills, please examine yours to. Go and re-read my post and see if I didn't admit that Islam was spread in some cases through war. But so alos was christianity and Judaism. And don't start giving me the story of the old testament being different from the new Testament to justify that Christianity is more peaceful. Even I acknowledged that the Torah, what you call the old testament was for the Jews, but what is curious is that the crusaders justified their bloody crusades using the Torah, since Jesus came to preach mercy. And I am sure you certainly believe in everything as constitued in the Old testament, otherwise, you should probably explain to me the creation, from the NT. Nw for the proof of Muhammed's peaceful nature.

His early days

Before he was six years old his mother died, and the doubly orphaned Muhammad was put under
the charge of his grandfather Abdul Muttalib who took tender care of him. But the old chief died
two years afterwards. On his deathbed he confided to his son Abu Talib the charge of the little
orphan.

When Muhammad was twelve years old, he accompanied his uncle Abu Talib on a mercantile
journey to Syria, and they proceeded as far as Busra. The journey lasted for some months. It was
at Busra that the Christian monk Bahira met Muhammad. He is related to have said to Abu Talib:
"Return with this boy and guard him against the hatred of the Jews, for a great career awaits your
nephew."

After this journey, the youth of Muhammad seems to have been passed uneventfully, but all
authorities agree in ascribing to him such correctness of manners and purity of morals as were
rare among the people of Mecca. The fair character and the honorable bearing of the unobtrusive
youth won the approbation of the citizens of Mecca, and by common consent he received the title
of "Al Ameen," The Faithful.

In his early years, Muhammad was not free from the cares of life. He had to watch the flocks of his
uncle, who, like the rest of the Barn Hashim, had lost the greater part of his wealth.

From youth to manhood he led an almost solitary life. The lawlessness rife among the Meccans,
the sudden outbursts of causeless and bloody quarrels among the tribes frequenting the Fair of
Okadh (the Arabian Olympia), and the immorality and skepticism of the Quraish, naturally caused
feelings of pity and sorrow in the heart of the sensitive youth. Such scenes of social misery and
religious degradation were characteristic of a depraved age.

Muhammad's
First Wife
When Muhammad was twenty-five years old, he traveled once more to Syria as
the factor of a noble and rich Quraishi widow named Khadijah; and, [b]having
proved himself faithful in the commercial interests of that lady, he was soon
rewarded with her hand in marriage. This marriage proved fortunate and
singularly happy. Khadijah was much the senior of her husband, but in spite of
the disparity of age between them, tender devotion on both sides existed. This
marriage gave him the loving heart of a woman who was ever ready to console
him in his despair and to keep alive within him the feeble, flickering flame of hope
when no man believed in him and the world appeared gloomy in his eyes.

The
Conditions in
Mecca
Until he reached thirty years of age, Muhammad was almost a stranger to the
outside world. Since the death of his grandfather, authority in Mecca was divided
among the ten senators who constituted the governing body of the Arabian
Commonwealth. There was no such accord among them as to ensure the safety
of individual rights and property. Though family relations afforded some degree
of protection to citizens, strangers were frequently exposed to persecution and
oppression. In many cases they were robbed, not only of their goods, but even
of their wives and daughters. At the instigation of the faithful Muhammad, an old
league called the Federation of Fudul, i.e., favors, was revived with the object of
repressing lawlessness and defending every weak individual - whether Meccan
or stranger, free or slave - against any wrong or oppression to which he might
be the victim within the territories of Mecca. [/b]



Muhammed's(SAW) relationship with christians of the yesteryears
It was about this time that the Prophet granted to the monks of the Monastery of St. Catherine,
near Mount Sinai, his liberal charter by which they secured for the Christians noble and generous
privileges and immunities. [b]He undertook himself, and enjoined his followers, to protect the
Christians, to defend their churches and the residences of their priests and to guard them from all
injuries. They were not to be unfairly taxed; no bishop was to be driven out of his diocese; no
Christian was to be forced to reject his religion; no monk was to be expelled from his monastery;
no pilgrim was to be stopped from his pilgrimage; nor were the Christian churches to be pulled
down for the sake of building mosques or houses for the Muslims. Christian women married to
Muslims were to enjoy their own religion and not to be subjected to compulsion or annoyance of
any kind. If the Christians should stand in need of assistance for the repair of their churches or
monasteries, or any other matter pertaining to their religion, the Muslims were to assist them. This
was not to be considered as supporting their religion, but as simply rendering them assistance in
special circumstances. Should the Muslims be engaged in hostilities with outside Christians, no
Christian resident among the Muslims should be treated with contempt on account of his creed.
The Prophet declared that any Muslim violating any clause of the charter should be regarded as a
transgressor of Allah's commandments, a violator of His testament and neglectful of His faith. [/b]



His first revelation

Renowned compilers of authentic traditions of Islam agree on the following account of the first
revelations received by the Prophet.

Muhammad would seclude himself in the cave of Mount Hira and worship three days and nights.
He would, whenever he wished, return to his family at Mecca and then go back again, taking with
him the necessities of life. Thus he continued to return to Khadijah from time to time until one day
the revelation came down to him and the Angel Gabriel (Jibreel) appeared to him and said:
"Read!" But as Muhammad was illiterate, having never received any instruction in reading or
writing, he said to the angel: "I am not a reader." The angel took hold of him and squeezed him as
much as he could bear, and then said again: "Read!" The Prophet said: "I am not a reader." The
Angel again seized the Prophet and squeezed him and said: "Read! In the Name of your Lord,
Who has created (all that exists), has created man from something that clings. Read! And your
Lord is the Most Generous, Who has taught (the writing) by the pen, has taught man that which
he knew not. Surah 96: 1-5

uhammad
Speaks with
Khadijah and
Waraqa
Then the Prophet repeated the words with a trembling heart. He returned to
Khadijah from Mount Hira and said: "Wrap me up! Wrap me up!" She wrapped
him in a garment until his fear was dispelled. He told Khadijah what had
occurred and that he was becoming either a soothsayer or one smitten with
madness. She replied: "Allah forbid! He will surely not let such a thing happen,
for you speak the truth, you are faithful in trust, you bear the afflictions of the
people, you spend in good works what you gain in trade, you are hospitable
and you assist your fellow men. Have you seen anything terrible?"

Muhammad replied: 'Yes," and told her what he had seen. Whereupon,
Khadijah said: "Rejoice, 0 dear husband and be cheerful. He in Whose hands
stands Khadijah's life bears witness to the truth of this fact, that you will be the
prophet to this people." Then she arose and went to her cousin Waraqa Ibn
Naufal, who was old and blind and who knew the Scriptures of the Jews and
the Christians, and is stated to have translated them into Arabic.

When she told him of what she had heard, he cried out: "Holy! Holy! Verily, this
is the Namus (The Holy Spirit) who came to Moses. He will be the prophet of his
people. Tell him this and bid him be brave of heart."

When the two men met subsequently in the street, the blind old student of the
Jewish and Christian Scriptures spoke of his faith and trust: "I swear by Him in
Whose hand Waraqa's life is, Allah has chosen you to be the prophet of this
people. They will call you a liar, they will persecute you, they will banish you,
they will fight against you. Oh, that I could live to those days. I would fight for
these." And he kissed him on his forehead.

Muhammad
Begins
Preaching
The first vision was followed by a considerable period, during which Muhammad
suffered much mental depression. The angel spoke to the grieved heart of hope
and trust and of the bright future when he would see the people of the earth
crowding into the one true faith. His destiny was unfolded to him when,
wrapped in profound meditation, melancholy and sad, he felt himself called by a
voice from heaven to arise and preach. 0 you (Muhammad) enveloped (in
grments)! Arise and warn! And your Lord (Allah) magnify! Surah 74: 1-3

He arose and engaged himself in the work to which he was called. Khadijah
was the first to accept his mission. She was to believe in the revelations, to
abandon the idolatry of her people and to join him in purity of heart and in
offering up prayers to Allah the Almighty.

Muhammad
Speaks with
Abu Talib
At the beginning of his mission, Muhammad - hereinafter called the Prophet -
opened his soul only to those who were attached to him and tried to free them
from the gross practices of their forefathers. After Khadijah, his cousin Ali was
the next companion. The Prophet used often to go into the desert around
Mecca with his wife and young cousin that they might together offer their
heart-felt thanks to the Lord of all nations for His manifold blessings. Once they
were surprised by Abu Talib, the father of Ali.

He said to the Prophet: "0 son of my brother, what is this religion you are
following?" "It is the religion of Allah of His Angels, of His Messengers and of our
ancestor Abraham," answered the Prophet. "Allah has sent me to His servants,
to direct them towards the truth, and you, 0 my uncle, are the most worthy of
all. It is meet that I should thus call upon you and it is meet that you should
accept the truth and help in spreading it."

Abu Talib replied: "Son of my brother, I cannot abjure the religion of my fathers;
but by the Supreme Lord, while I am alive, none shall dare to injure you." Then
turning towards Ali, the venerable chief asked what religion was his. Ali
answered: "0 father, "I believe in Allah and His Prophet and go with him." Abu
Talib replied: "Well my son, he will not call you to anything except what is good,
therefore you are free to go with him."

Muhammad's
First Three
Years
After Ali, Muhammad's adopted son Zaid became a convert to the new faith. He
was followed by Abu Bakr, a leading member of the Quraish tribe and an
honest, wealthy merchant who enjoyed great consideration among his
compatriots. He was but two years younger than the Prophet. His adoption of
the new faith was of great moral effect. Soon after, five notables presented
themselves before the Prophet and accepted Islam. Several converts also came
from lower classes of the Arabs to adopt the new religion.

For three weary long years, the Prophet labored very quietly to deliver his
people from the worship of idols. Polytheism was deeply rooted among the
people. It offered attractions which the new faith in its purity did not possess.
The Quraish had personal material interests in the old worship, and their
prestige was dependent upon its maintenance. The Prophet had to contend
with the idolatrous worship of its followers and to oppose the ruling oligarchy
which governed its destinies.

Muhammad's
First Address to
the Public
After three years of constant but quiet struggle, only thirty followers were
secured. An important change now occurred in the relations of the Prophet with
the citizens of Mecca. His compatriots had begun to doubt his sanity, thinking
him crazy or possessed by an evil spirit. Hitherto he had preached quietly and
unobtrusively. He now decided to appeal publicly to the Meccans, requesting
them to abandon their idolatry.

For this he arranged a gathering on a neighboring hill and there spoke to them
of their folly in the sight of Allah in worshipping pieces of stone which they
called their gods. He invited them to abandon their old impious worship and
adopt the faith of love, truth, and purity. He warned them of the fate that had
overtaken past races who had not heeded the preaching of former prophets.
But the gathering departed without listening to the warning given them by the
Prophet.

Muhammad
Attempts to
Address
Foreigners
Having thus failed to induce his fellow citizens to listen to him, he turned his
attention to the strangers arriving in the city on commerce or pilgrimage. But
the Quraish made attempts to frustrate his efforts. They hastened themselves
to meet the strangers first on the different routes, to warn them against
holding any communication with the Prophet, whom they represented as a
dangerous magician. When the pilgrims or traders returned to their homes,
they carried with them the news of the advent of the bold preacher who was
inviting the Arabs loudly - at the risk of his own life - to abandon the worship of
their dear idols.

Some
Persecutions
Faced by the
Believers
Now the Prophet and his followers became subject to some persecution and
indignity. The hostile Quraish prevented the Prophet from offering his prayers
at the Sacred House of the Kaba; they pursued him wherever he went; they
covered him and his disciples with dirt and filth when engaged in their
devotions; they scattered thorns in the places which he frequented for
devotion and meditation. Amidst all these trials the Prophet did not waver. He
was full of confidence in his mission, even when on several occasions he was
put in imminent danger of losing his life.

The Prophet continued preaching to the Arabs in a most gentle and reasonable manner. He called
the people, so accustomed to iniquity and wrong-doings, to abandon their abominations. In
burning words which excited the hearts of his hearers, he warned them of the punishment which
Allah had inflicted upon the ancient tribes of 'Ad and Thamud who had obstinately disobeyed the
teachings of Allah's messengers to them. He adjured them by the wonderful sights of nature, by
the noonday brightness, by the night when it spreads its veil, by the day when it appears in glory
to listen to his warning before a similar destruction befell them. He spoke to them of the Day of
Reckoning, when their deeds in this world will be weighed before the Eternal Judge, when the
children who had been buried alive will be asked for what crime they were put to death.
In this year, twelve men of Yathrib, of whom ten were of the Jewish tribe of Khazraj and the other
two of Aws, came to Mecca and took an oath of fidelity to the Prophet at AlAqaba, a hill on the
north of that city. This oath was called the Womens' Oath, not that any women were present at
this time, but because a man was not thereby obliged to take up arms in defense of the Prophet
or his religion, it being the same oath that was afterwards exacted of the women. This oath was
as follows: "We will not associate anything with Allah; we will not steal nor commit adultery or
fornication, nor kill our children (as the pagan Arabs used to do when they apprehended that they
would not be able to maintain them), nor forge calumnies; we will obey the Prophet in everything
that is reasonable, and we will be faithful to him in well and sorrow." When they had solemnly
engaged to do all this, the Prophet sent one of his disciples, Musab Ibn Umair, home with them to
teach them the fundamental doctrines and ceremonies of the religion. Mus'ab, having arrived at
Yathrib by the assistance of those who had been formerly converted, gained several new
converts, particulary Usaid Ibn Khudair, a chief man of the city, and Sad Ibn Mu'adh, prince of the
tribe of Aws. Islam spread so fast that there was scarcely a house that did not have some Muslims
in it.
The next year, being the thirteenth of the mission (A.D. 622) Musab returned from Yathrib
accompanied by seventy-three men and two women of that city who had adopted Islam, besides
others who were as yet unbelievers. On their arrival, these Yathribites immediately sent to the
Prophet and invited him to their city. The Prophet was now in great need of such assistance, for
his opponents had by this time grown so powerful in Mecca that he could not stay there much
longer without imminent danger. He therefore accepted their proposal and met them one night by
appointment at Al-Aqaba attended by his uncle Al Abbas, who, though he was not then a convert,
wished his nephew well.

Al Abbas made a speech to those of Yathrib wherein he told them that, as the Prophet Muhammad
was obliged to quit his native city and seek shelter elsewhere, and they had offered him their
protection, they would do well not to deceive him; and that if they were not firmly resolved to
defend and not to betray him, they had better declare their minds and let him provide for his
safety in some other manner. Upon their professing their sincerity, the Prophet swore to be
faithful to them, on condition that they should worship none but Allah observe the precepts of
Islam, obey the Prophet in all that was right, and protect him against all insults as heartily as they
would their wives and families. They then asked him what would be their return, if they should
happen to be killed in the cause of Allah; he answered:' "Paradise," whereupon they pledged their
faith to him and his cause.

The Prophet then selected twelve men out of their number to act as his delegates. Thus was
concluded the second covenant of Al Aqaba. The Yathribites returned home leaving the Prophet to
arrange for the journey to their city. The Prophet directed his followers to seek immediate safety
at Yathrib, which they accordingly did. About one hundred families silently disappeared from Mecca
and proceded to Yathrib, where they were received with enthusiasm and much hospitality. Finally,
all the disciples had gone to Yathrib. The Prophet alone remained at Mecca, keeping with him only
his young cousin Ali, and his devoted friend Abu Bakr.

History
Towards the second year of the hijrah, the idolaters of Mecca began a series of
hostile acts against the Muslims of Medina. They sent men in parties to commit
depredations on the fruit trees of the Muslims of Medina and to carry away their
flocks. Now came the moment of severest trial to Islam. It became the duty of the
Prophet to take serious measures to guard against any plot rising from within or a
sudden attack from without. He put Medina in a state of military discipline. He had to
send frequent reconnoitering parties to guard against any sudden onslaught.

No sooner did the Prophet organize his state than a large well-equipped army of the
Meccans was afield. A force consisting of one thousand men marched under Abu Jahl,
a great enemy of Islam, towards Medina to attack the city. The Muslims received
timely notice of their enemies' intention. A body of three hundred adherents, of whom
two thirds were citizens of Medina, was gathered to forestall the idolaters by
occupying the valley of Badr, situated near the sea between Mecca and Medina. When
the Prophet saw the army of the infidels approaching the valley, he prayed that the
little band of Muslims might not be destroyed.

The army of the Meccans advanced into the open space which separated the Muslims
from the idolaters. According to Arab usage, the battle was begun by simple combats.
The engagement then became general. The result of the battle was that the Meccans
were driven back with great loss. Several of their chiefs were slain, including Abu Jahl.
A large number of idolaters remained prisoners in the hands of the Muslims. They
were, contrary to all usage and traditions of the Arabs, treated with the greatest
humanity. The Prophet gave strict orders that sympathy should be shown them in
their misfortune and that they should be treated with kindness. These instructions
were faithfully obeyed by the Muslims to whose care the prisoners were confided.
Dealing with this event, Sir William Muir, in his book Life of Muhammad, quotes one of
the prisoners saying: "Blessing be on the men of Medina; they made us ride, while
they themselves walked; they gave us wheaten bread to eat, when there was little of
it, contenting themselves with dates."

The
Battle of
Badr -
Qur'anic
Almighty Allah said: And Allah has already made you victorious at Badr, when you
were a weak little force. So fear Allah much abstain from all kinds of sins and evil
deeds which He has forbidden and love Allah much, perform all kinds of good deeds
which He has ordained that you may be grateful. (Remember) when you (Muhammad)
said to the believers, "Is it not enough for you that your Lord (Allah) should help you
with three thousand angels; sent down? Yes, if you hold on to patience and piety and
the enemy comes rushing at you; your Lord will help you with five thousand angels
having marks (of distinction). Allah made it not but as a message of good news for
you and as an assurance to your hearts. And there is no victory except from Allah the
All-Mighty the All-wise. That He might cut off a part of those who disbelieve, or expose
them to infamy so that they retire frustrated. " Surah 3: 123-127

A Little
Insight
on the
Battle of
Badr
The remarkable circumstances which led to the victory of Badr and the results which
followed from it made a deep impression on the minds of the Muslims: the angels of
heaven had battled on their side against their enemies. The division of the spoils
created some dissension between the Muslim warriors. For the moment, the Prophet
divided it equally among all. Subsequently, a Qur'an revelation laid down a rule for
future division of the spoils. According to this rule, a fifth was reserved for the public
treasury for the support of the poor and indigent, while the distribution of the
remaining four fifths was left to the discretion of the Chief of the State.


Now my dear mlks_baby, I hope this answers all your questions. You must also know that Muhammed (SAW) won over many people by being peaceful. The Quranic verses that tell muslims to fight the unbelievers most times reffered to Pagans, not Christians, and judging by the kind of persecution they faced, it was only natural. However, later Jews and christians joined the pagans in persecuting Muslims, and this led to the confrontation between Islam and christianity.

And ur claim that Allah in the Quran is polytheist is unfounded. Please don't descend to the level of We vs I, as that is pure grammer. As you can see from the foregoing, it is said innumerably in the Quran that God is one to Muslims.


And since you like reading, I hope this makes a wonderful reading to you.


Cheers.

To cut a long story short Christians are to blind to see that there are many similarities between Christianity And Islam.
The same way the white man was too blind to see the similarities between Christianity and African traditional religion.
See what am reading here there is not even a unity in Christianity .
"No the Catholics are to blame or no its the Jehovah that are at fault etc.
The Catholics believe in the holy spirit, the Communion of saints  and in Mary the mother of god.
It is my good right to ague as a Catholic because am one .But if i do that people will tell me am going off point because it dose not pertain to them
The question was : Differences And Similarities Between Christianity And Islam.

Both have fought religious wars both believe in one god  both have there religious places they go to . weather its only the Catholics or not.

Even our forfathers believed in one suprem god and in ancestors the way we believe in saints.

They also believe in good spirit and evil spirits.
The names are different but the concept is the same.

Well if Christians do not even agree among themselves because they are so blind better said rascal , how much more agree with a Muslim

@mamaput,

Sorry to note that the rascality is yours in many aspects. I would not like to be so outspoken, but you don't throw such invectives at people when you haven't seen the blot in your own side of the story.

The thread is an issue between Christianity and Islam, not Catholicism and Islam. You have every right to open a relevant thread for that purpose as best suits you - the issue is not even about Catholicism and Christianity.

If you want to know, the Muslim argument has not been a matter of similarities between Christianity and Islam, and if anyone's too blind to see that, I fear it's you and none other. The strain of arguments so far has been polarised to either of two postions: that Islam is the true religion and Christianity is false; or the other way round. Go read them, and read them carefully.

mamaput:

It is my good right to ague as a Catholic because am one .But if i do that people will tell me am going off point because it dose not pertain to them

I have offered that you post your arguements in the relevant threads; or better still, open a new one to argue your rights as a Catholic against all other Protestant expressions of Christianity - especially the one you decry the most: Jehovah Witnesses. I'm sure they would respond with well prepared arguemts and counter claims to yours.

mamaput:

Well if Christians do not even agree among themselves because they are so blind better said rascal , how much more agree with a Muslim

Please, could you kindly post a single line in the arguments so far to the effect that Christians "agree with a Muslim" as far as doctrinal issues are concerned? There doesn't appear to be any such agreements between believers of the two faiths, and that's why the thread was created in the first place. Even Muslims do not agree among themselves, nor do Catholics agree among themselves for that matter; so what's your headache about that? It's more a matter of differences than similarities, even though the topic includes the latter. a few things and names are mentioned in either faiths: worship of one God, the prophets - Abraham, Moses, Jesus; but they are all mentioned with different interpretations rather than similarites in them. An example is just given in ajia23's reply to mlks_baby's: "While Mary was praying in the temple, an angel in the form of a man appeared before her." As a Catholic, do you agree with that line, and if so, where in your Bible does it say so?

Mamaput, follow the strain of arguments and counter-arguements in this thread; you seem to be taking your vexations to the wrong battle field.

I did not start with that it was the Catholics stuff you have to give that crown to another person.
And i can use what ever backup i like . do not refere me to another Trend you sound like a Jehovah.
Once more i wrote both went on holy wars and someone answered it was the Catholics.
What dose that statement mean. should i answer the person "Oke come lets go to Bla bla bla Trend"
In my eyes there is no wrong religion and i think everyone is invited to say there part.
so do not refer me to an other trend

The thread is an issue between Christianity and Islam, not Catholicism and Islam.

so what are catholics semi Christians or wannabes.
I ague as a catholic because am one .,

@mamaput,

I don't sound like a JW, and I'm not one.

You're entitled to post anything anywhere you feel like, even when it is off-topic.

That you argue as a "Catholic" rather than as a "Christian" says it all - no wonder your points are far wide of what the Bible teaches.

You may not like this, but when you look at it carefully, you'll see that Muslims and Christians do not have any similarities in their worship - from their prophets to God/Allah. You're free to insist they do (and help us back your claims from the relevant sources, not what some people are doing on the street).

It is true, the Crusades and other 'holy wars' in the history of Christianity was instigated and carried through by the Roman Catholic Church - and history confirms it, as well as Catholic authorities. That's what that statement means (unless the poster differs).

In your eyes, if there's nothing wrong in religions that make it an established tenet to kill those who do not follow theirs, good for you: just wait until God tells you otherwise.

So, Catholics are Catholics - hardly do they follow the Christian doctrine as found in the Bible, and the point is often played out in your celebrated and constant use of "Catholic" rather than "Christian": that says a lot in itself. If you doubt me, post just a few samples of your Catholic imbroglio here and invite Muslims to respond to them. At the end of the day, come back and tell me that any Muslim would be so foolhardy to agree with you that you worship in a similar religion.

hi islam means peace, so the christains try to criticize the religion of islam,but based on what i read above no muslim criticize the christain religion because in the holy quran or the five principles of faith God mention belief in me,belief in my angels,belief in my prophets,and belief in my books, and beliefs in the last day. that means we the muslims should believe that there is jesus too and never to criticise him. but can a real chritain in the house tell me why other christains are saying jesus is the son of a poor carpenter? and we the muslims belief that his mum is virgin.

@ikilima,

Anyone can be the son of a poor carpenter, fisherman, shepherd, or otherwise of a wealthy merchant. The fact is that, what makes Christianity Biblical, is not the mere confession of Him as a Prophet or God's Servant; but that He was the Son of God.

And as to the concern about the criticism, nuru was magnanimous enough to educate Christians that they do not follow the teachings of Jesus - even go so far as to quote texts from the Bible to the point. It was followong that the several rejoinders have been posted to share the Christian perspective on the Forum in this respect.

It's alright to believe in Jesus - but do you ever wonder why even the Qur'an acknowledges Him as the Messiah (or the Christ)? Have you asked what is the meaning of "Messiah/Christ"? You really haven't believed in Jesus until you recognise Him for what He is - for He surely is the Messiah, the very Christ. If you haven't come to grips with that, then the confession of His deity will continue to sound absurd (rather, blasphemous) to you. Take a moment to think it through.

Hi again ajia23,

I'll respond to yours in sound bites as best I could.

ajia23:

However my allusion to the person killed being Judas was totally my error. I regret it.

Point noted about the error in the Judas case. And where I might have been unduely forward in my replies, I take it back and amicably seek to understand where you're coming from.

Indeed I went through every point you raised, even observing that you needlessly repeated yourself (Mary Receives News of Jesus: Surah 19:18-21 [1st point]; and, Mary Receives News of Jesus - Qur'anic Surah 19:16-21 [4th point] ~ both are simply saying the same thing; as is the case with the 2nd & 5th; and 3rd & 6th points respectively). It was nonetheless good that you bore out your points with references, but then, perhaps, it would have been better to summarise them for other readers who may not have the luxury of time, don't you agree? Yet, I'll point out a few things by way of sharing concerns with you.

ajia23:

While Mary was praying in the temple, an angel in the form of a man appeared before her

I don't know where you got that interesting interpolation about the event occuring in the temple; or perhaps it was just your inference by way of exposition of the verses quoted. I didn't find it so; rather it was a place facing East according to the Qur'an. The narratives surrouding the birth and early childhood of Jesus differ in both the Qur'an and the Bible. Muslims have their reasons for holding fastiduously to what the Qur'an says than to that of the Bible. In any case, they both agree that His birth was supernatural - without a biological father and by the power of God.

ajia23:

Then (the babe "Jesus" or Gabriel) cried unto her from below her, saying: "Grieve not! Your Lord has provided a water stream under you.

I'd not like to be pedantic about everything you've posted, but don't you think that the suggestion in parenthesis (the babe "Jesus" or Gabriel) in place of the usually translated clause ("a voice" run in contradiction? Was it the "babe Jesus", or was it "Gabriel", or yet was it "a voice"? This is an example of a case where non-Muslims ask about the seeming inconsistency in Islamic interpretations of Qur'anic texts (as distinct from 'inconsistencies in the Qur'an itself'). Yussuf Ali's English translation ("a voice" and Shakir's ("the child" do not seem to be saying the same thing about this verse (Sura 19:24). Several such interpolations are found in your piece; another example - "She put her finger to her lips and pointed to the child" instead of simply "She pointed to the child" according to Sura 19:29 (where did you get the words from - "put her finger to her lips and"?).

ajia23:

As Jesus grew, the signs of prophethood began to increase. He could tell his friends what kind of supper waited for them at home and what they had hidden and where.

This is one of those narratives that convolutes the plain teaching of what Jesus might have been in His childhood and tutelage. Ask yourself, don't you think His fame would have spread far and wide while performing those miracles as a child, rather than when He began His ministry as an adult? No one would suppose that He would've been relatively unbeknown until His public appearing for ministry at the baptism by John the baptist. The reason is clear: Jesus never acted contrary to the prophecies made concerning Him in the Old Testament. The Bible says that He would not unduely attract attention to Himself (Isa. 42:2) - and He followed that principle all through His life and earthly ministry. Many times we read of Him that after healing someone, He would send them away quietly and not seeking to blow a trumpet about the miracle (Matt. 8:4). Even at His arrest and subsequent trial, He astounded the prosecutors and judges by remaining silent before them and not playing into their temptation to display some miraculous feat (Matt. 26:62; and Mark 15:4). The first miracle ever that Jesus performed (According to the Biblical account) followed this rule: when His mother stated that they had no wine, Jesus' response was to the effect that His time had not yet come (John 2:1-4,11).

The difference in the narratives in the Qur'an and the Bible is that the former does not take into account the prophecies in the Old Testament, while the Bible recognises the OT as crucial in identifying Jesus as the Messiah. If the Qur'an ignores the Old Testament prophecies, how did Mohammed come to the conclusion that Jesus was indeed the Messiah (for that is precisely what is stated in the Qur'an - Yussuf Ali translates as "Christ Jesus", while Shakir uses "Messiah, Isa" - see Sura 3:45)? If indeed, the Qur'an had taken the OT prophecies into account, then it would have unmistakably noticed that the crufixion, death, and resurrection of the Messiah were all prphesied before He was born. This is what is largely responsible for the Muslim position that the Biblical account is untrustworthy, for the simply reason that the Qur'an largely ignored the prophecies abut the Messiah.

ajia23:

There were twenty thousand Jewish priests registered there who earned their living from the temple. The rooms of the temple were full of them.

I couldn't help giggling at the sense of humour in that line. That's an exaggeration and quite overblown, and the problem can be resolved by taking into account the dimensions of the temple. If twenty thousand Jewish priests filled the temple, what room was left for the thousands more worshippers who came to there for worship? Besides, Jewish religious influence was on the decline at that time, so the number of registered priests could not have been that staggering.

As for the rest of the rejoinder, I'll save us the needless counters in order to face the more pressing issues.

ajia23:

Now my dear mlks_baby, I hope this answers all your questions. You must also know that Muhammed (SAW) won over many people by being peaceful.

Some of the questions may have been addressed as far as your answers more establish your position so I could reason with you on a friendly note. I do not for once argue that many people might have been won over by Mohammed through peaceful means; and thanks for your efforts in posting all you did - much appreciated.

ajia23:

The Quranic verses that tell muslims to fight the unbelievers most times reffered to Pagans, not Christians, and judging by the kind of persecution they faced, it was only natural. However, later Jews and christians joined the pagans in persecuting Muslims, and this led to the confrontation between Islam and christianity

That the unbelievers in the Qur'an most often referred to 'pagans' and not Christians may be true to some extent; but they are most often in reference to Christians and Jews. I don't see anything natural in the kind of raids, plunders and killings that are stipulated in the Qur'an, and which most Muslims use as their keys texts for Islamic uprisings against perceived enemies. Besides, what happens when a person tries to exercise his or her right to choice of religion? I can't begin to think of how many verses treat people of other persuasions with such sad outlook that we are too familiar with today.

ajia23:

And your claim that Allah in the Quran is polytheist is unfounded. Please don't descend to the level of We vs I, as that is pure grammer. As you can see from the foregoing, it is said innumerably in the Quran that God is one to Muslims.

Grammar or not, when someone speaks, there should be no ambiguities if understanding is to be reached. Even more so in matters of religion - it's either the one speaking is using singular pronouns or plural pronouns. It is not Christians who ascribe partners to Allah/God - in fact, it is the Qur'an itself! If several texts keep presenting Allah to be worship in the form of plurality, I think it is unfortunate that anyone should ignore the glaring facts about that.

The Bible does not hide the fact that God in both the Judaistic and Christian faiths is a Trinity. The Jews recoil on this decaration of faith even though it is clearly spelt out in several Old Testament texts. That should not be surprising, because there are lots of things that they lost sight of, to the extent that the rarely spell God's name in their literature, and a Jew today would spell God in English as G-d.

Indeed, God is One, and the Trinity is not "three Gods" as Muslims are made to believe. When you carefully look into the Qur'an texts alluding to the Trinity, it shows that what they say Christians believe, is not true (because the Trinity is not the Father, Son and Mary). It is also said innumerably that God is One in the Bible; but Islam takes the concept of the Trinity and stretches beyond what it actually meant, so that today, many Muslims would not even want to discuss the issue.

ajia23:

And since you like reading, I hope this makes a wonderful reading to you

I didn't need to sweat it out actually. Just thought to seive out the essential points that merit a good response.

Regards.

@ Syrup

mamaput has some points though. Islam, and Christianity claim to be monotheistic religions. And at one point or the other in their histories, they both over-stepped the bounds and did things that were not in their doctrines including unprovoked wars in a bid to expand their frontiers. Anywhere in the Quran where God asked the Muslims to fight unbelievers, it was in response to an attack or persecution.

I personally think it is unfair for people to make a distiction between Roman Catholicism and Christianity. The latter was derived as a modified form of the former, but it doesn't mean protestantism has not had it's own mistakes. I know of some, but will only discuss them if they are relevant.


@mlks_baby

You would see that those points you said where repetitions are actually different. The first says what is generally believed, and the 2nd says what the Quran states. And I guess that answers your questions about the Temple episode. It was not Qurannic, but the Qurannic version is given below it.

Now in Islam, the interpretations of the Quran are what they are-interpretations of the meanings. That is why different scholars use different proofs to back up their claims. And those that are comments of the scholars are put in a parentheses like you saw earlier. This is the exact reason the Quran has remained in Arabic so it's meanings remain unchanged, and this has remained so for 1400 years. Muslims are however encouraged to learn Arabic, then consider these proofs themselves and interprete those things that seem vague based on these proofs.

You get it wrong again. The Quran actually supports evidence from the Torah, but it disregards the old testament as authentic because we believe it was altered like the bible by the Jews. So, the Quran actually accepts Jesus as the messiah. The Arabic word for Messiah is Masih bn Maryam-which translates to Messiah son of Mary. Anywhere there's such a statement there cannot be a disagreement about interpreting it as Messiah. And U r also wrong to say that the Old testament foretold his death and resurrection. The Jews believe no such thing. Some of them believe Ezra is the son of God, but they don't even believe in resurrection. They believe Jesus is yet to come.

You see concerning the 'raids, pluders, and killings' as you put it, the Quran initially asked Muslims to fight the pagans. Now, when the pagans were no longer a threat, and the Romans were expanding their frontiers using christianity, they effectively became pagans. And they were fighting the Muslims, and remember in the quote I gave you about Muhammed's alliance with some Christians, He said if some chrisitans came to fight you, those under you (muslims) must be treated well. Those Chrisitans with which he had an alliance did not believe in trinity. Now this is what Muslim scholars hold on to when they say the christians who believe in trinity should be regarded as pagans. I however do not subscribe to that school of thought. And if you want to now, christians and Jews are treated in a different manner as christians. Muslims are allowed to marry them, eat their food, etc. I just want you to be clear on that. I brought out this quote so that you will be very clear about Islamic relations with peace loving people.

Muhammed's(SAW) relationship with christians of the yesteryears
It was about this time that the Prophet granted to the monks of the Monastery of St. Catherine,
near Mount Sinai, his liberal charter by which they secured for the Christians noble and generous
privileges and immunities. He undertook himself, and enjoined his followers, to protect the
Christians, to defend their churches and the residences of their priests and to guard them from all
injuries. They were not to be unfairly taxed; no bishop was to be driven out of his diocese; no
Christian was to be forced to reject his religion; no monk was to be expelled from his monastery;
no pilgrim was to be stopped from his pilgrimage; nor were the Christian churches to be pulled
down for the sake of building mosques or houses for the Muslims. Christian women married to
Muslims were to enjoy their own religion and not to be subjected to compulsion or annoyance of
any kind. If the Christians should stand in need of assistance for the repair of their churches or
monasteries, or any other matter pertaining to their religion, the Muslims were to assist them. This
was not to be considered as supporting their religion, but as simply rendering them assistance in
special circumstances. Should the Muslims be engaged in hostilities with outside Christians, no
Christian resident among the Muslims should be treated with contempt on account of his creed.
The Prophet declared that any Muslim violating any clause of the charter should be regarded as a
transgressor of Allah's commandments, a violator of His testament and neglectful of His faith.

When Allah refers to himself as we, he is talking of all the hosts of the heavens. When he wanted to breathe His Spirit into Mary (RAA) He used Angel Gabriel (ASW). So when He said I, He was right, also when He said We, He was also right. If you tell your servant to do something, and you are the boss somewhere, you could say I did it, or you could say we did it. Depends on you really. So there's no contradiction.

The Quran actually alludes to trinity as God the father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, not Mary (RAA) as you stated. Mary(RAA) is well documented to be the mother of Jesus (ASW), she has a whole chapter dedicated to her. And we believe in the Holy Spirit, just that we believe it's part of God, more like an attribute of God, not a separate entity. Like you would say a human possesses his fingers. His fingers are not independent. Where we differ is in the sonship of God. That Jesus (ASW) was on earth, while his father was in Heaven is unacceptable in Islamic doctrines.

mamaput.

Muslims, Christians and Jews are all expecting Jesus (ASW). That's another similarity between Islam and christianity.

as the Christians were spreading there religion over the Atlantic they came on ships to Africa, the Muslims were comming over the desert.

Trans Shara and trans Atlantic are no strange words to any African.
The say the whitman came with the flag and the Bible and that bible was not a Catholic bible.
Read what they did in many African countries.
Yes they did alto of good but also alto of bad and that was not only Muslims.
And all claim Abraham as their father.(what ever it all started with him.

@ajia23,

I'm glad we're having an amicable discussion, and trust that they'll remain that way for time to come.

First, I'd like to comment on the line that Christianity was derived as a modified form of Roman Catholicism.

ajia23:

I personally think it is unfair for people to make a distiction between Roman Catholicism and Christianity. The latter was derived as a modified form of the former

You really have these mixed up, and when you carefully go through the New Testament, you'll find that Catholicism rather introduced a lot of unbiblical practices into Christianity that was already in existence. The one that came later ws not Christianity; it was Roman Catholicism that arrived later, after the apostolic foundations. Catholic doctrines run riot of New Testament Christianity; and if they continue to reject the foundational teachings of Jesus Christ as found in the Bible itself, what confidence is there in referring to it as wholesale Christianity?

Now, wrt your responses to mine:

I think that the general beliefs about Mary being in the Temple when angel Gabriel announced the glad tidings to her is not a Christian view as far as I know. It's not in the Bible, nor in the Qur'an; so it really shouldn't hold any substance to our discussion.

As to the interpretations of the Qur'an by the various Muslims translators and their comments in parentheses, I've heard lots of things like what you stated; and some Muslims scholars posit that the moment one translates the Qur'an from Arabic to another language, it ceases to be Allah's word. The point is, not all Muslims agree as to what exactly is the weight of a translation of the Qur'an in Islamic life and thinking. This, of course, does not appear to be as serious as the idea that the Qur'an is the complete Word of God as most Muslims are wont to believe. Just in the same way that Muslims believe that the Bible has been tampered with, they litle realise that some verses of the Qur'an were not included while it was being collated.

ajia23:

You get it wrong again. The Quran actually supports evidence from the Torah, but it disregards the old testament as authentic because we believe it was altered like the bible by the Jews.

It's interesting that you'd buy into that idea. Each time I hear things like "it was altered", I've often asked questions that have fetched no answers from Musilms who believe that the Bible has been altered. Who altered it? When was it altered? What were the original words that were altered? How did the alterations depart from the original? What has Allah declared to be the original words that were altered? etc. None of these questions and more have been adequately answered by Muslims who have been sold the idea that the Bible was altered.

Now, if you have any understanding of Hebrew (the origin language of the Torah), would you ever deny the fact that Gen. 1:26 is an allusion to the fact of the Trinity? "Let Us make man" - and God wasn't there speaking at all in conference with the angels, because neither Judaism nor Christianity teaches even remotely that man was ever created by any angel, nor that they shared in any part of the divine creating work. Following through, Deut. 6:4 states unequivocally that the LORD God of Israel was One Lord.

Give it a moment's thought. Why would Moses have been inspired to warn in Deuteronomy about the oneness of God, if not that from such texts as Gen. 1:26, some would have been tempted to think of God as "three Gods"? Again, check out the Biblical account of God meeting Abraham in Gen. 18 - that's one of the cases often referred to by Bible scholars as " the theophany" (appearance of God). This is something which the Muslim mind would find impossible to grasp. How could God appear? Are the angels not enough for Him to send? But, it may interest you that even the Jews would not deny the theophany in their scripture.

This is why there are so many holes in the Qur'anic claim that the Old Testament have been altered while it seems to be corroborating the Torah. If these important matters which are evidenced in the Torah are lacking in the Qur'anic testimony, there's little reason to believe at all that anyone coud take that allegation seriously.

ajia23:

And U r also wrong to say that the Old testament foretold his death and resurrection. The Jews believe no such thing. Some of them believe Ezra is the son of God, but they don't even believe in resurrection. They believe Jesus is yet to come.

Check out the following Old Testament text about the death and resurrection of the Messiah:

Psa. 16:10 - "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." (compare Acts 2:27 &31).

Psa. 22:16 - "For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet." (see verses 17-18 and compare with Matt. 27:35-36).

Zechariah 12:10 - "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." (infact, beside alluding to the crucifixion, this verse clearly confirms the deity of Christ - He is the One who will pour out the Spirit [cf. John 1:33 - Jesus is the One who baptizes with the Holy Spirit], and He yet would be the One they would pierce and look upon).

See also Isaiah 53:5-10 ("he was bruised for our iniquities. . . for the transgression of my people was he stricken. . . he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. . . when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin". Who do you think Isaiah was prophesying about? And what were the descriptions pointing to?

Concerning resurrection: what happened in II Kings 4:35-36? If Joseph did not believe in the resurrection, why did he take the trouble to take an oath of the children of Israel to carry forth his bones out of Egypt (Gen. 50:25)? And again, Moses knew there would be a resurrection of the dead, otherwise why did he ask God in intercession to blot out his name from His book (Exo. 32:32)? Now, Jesus caps it all up when He made this profound statement: "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Mat 22:31-32).

That the Jews did not believe what was in their scriptures does not mean that those things were not there at all in the first place. The reason is simple and twofold: (a) 2Co 3:14 - "But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ," and (b) Rom. 11:25 - "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in."

Let me summarise: what you say the Jews did not believe does not mean that they were never in the Scriptures read every sabbath by the Jews. The death and resurrection of the Messiah, as well as the Trinity were all in the Jewish scriptures. They chose not to believe them, even as God often showed in the latter prophets in the OT; and as Jesus pointed out to them in the NT.

So, your point that I was wrong actually begs the issue because you are ignoring the glaring fact that these matters were there.

I'll take up the others soon.

ajia23:

When Allah refers to himself as we, he is talking of all the hosts of the heavens. When he wanted to breathe His Spirit into Mary (RAA) He used Angel Gabriel (ASW). So when He said I, He was right, also when He said We, He was also right. If you tell your servant to do something, and you are the boss somewhere, you could say I did it, or you could say we did it. Depends on you really. So there's no contradiction.

This is one of the rarest moments I'm confirming indirectly from a Muslim that the "We", "Us" of Allah in the Qur'an refers to himself and all the hosts of heaven. Well, take a second look:

Qur'an 21:30 - "We made every living thing of water" and 24:45 - "And Allah has created from water every living creature."

Qur'an 25:54 - "It is He Who has created man from water" and 15:26 - "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape"

Qur'an 19:67 - "But does not man call to mind that We created him before out of nothing?" and 37:11 - "Them have We created out of a sticky clay"

Now you surprise me to infer that Allah and the hosts of the heavens are indicated by the "We" in those verses. Let me ask you: who created you - Allah and the hosts of heaven, or just Allah alone by Himself? ('Allah' here as simply arabic for "God". You won't want to beat round the issue about this by suggesting that the angels created you as well - that would be so serious as to border on something else.

Again, look at this verse: Sura 21:76 - "And Noah, when he cried of old, We heard his prayer and saved him and his household from the great affliction."

How come this is suggesting that Noah prayed to the "We" in that verse - prayed to Allah and the heavenly hosts, which is the very thing that God forbids in both the OT and NT? In Christianity, not one verse would you find any believer praying to anyone besides God alone.

Did you read the analogy that I gave you? God does something, he uses the angels to do it. He can refer to himself as I did it, or say we did it. It doesn't matter either way, the person who did it is God. We answered his parayers simply means He asked the angels to restore Job.

Let me take you into the account of creation as described by the Quran. God told the angels, I will create a vicegerent on earth. Then the angels said, why would you create what will spread mishief on earth. Then God said I know that which you do not know. He then created Adam (ASW), put him in Eden. But Adam sinned and was taken to earth and God's mission was established. Now, if God said, and We created Adam, this doesn't imply many gods, but He just meant, He created Adam with the knowledge and support of the angels.

ajia23,

I'm surprised by your assertions that God would seek counsel from Angels or any of His creatures before He does anything.  How many times has He consulted you before carrying out His will?  You give more relevance to the creature rather than the creator from your perspective.  In the creation of Eve, God did not allow Adam who was to be her companion to have an input, instead God put Adam to sleep and only brought Eve to Adam after she was created.  The only participation that Adam had in creation was the naming of the animals, and this was done to show that Adam had authority over them.  In Biblical perspective, it is the one who is in authority that can give names to those under his authority.  You can see that there is no logic in your statement at all.  Try explaining some other way or come to the terms that the allah as described in your Qu'ran is not even one personality, not that it makes any difference to my faith.

Peace unto me the day I was born, the day I die and the day I shall be raised alive."

The quote above is from one of your posts earlier.  I do not know if you got it from the Qu'ran or hadith, but can't you see the contradictions in it?  Here it is claimed that Jesus actually will die, but in the other Qu'ranic claims, jesus didn't actually die but was raised up to heaven.    Can you also see a claim of resurrection in that statement?

About the Bible being corrupted.  I told you once to do your research and find out the Bible that existed during the days of Mohammed and make comparative notes with the Bible in circulation today with a view to highlighting the differences.  When you have done that, please share your results with us, and we shall decide if indeed the Bible has being corrupted or not.  Since you have been commanded to believe in the Gospels, which was written by Jesus' disciples and not Jesus Himself, then you owe it to your faith to find out what the original texts say and not depend on conjecture.

@ TayoD

He was not consulting the angels, He was having a conversation, I dare say you know not the meaning of consultation.If I tell you I am going to do something, and no matter waht you say I am still going to do it any way, do you call that consultation?

Jesus (ASW) is alive now, He'll come back to kill the anti-christ, then the trumpet would be sounded, everything living will die, then everything (including Jesus (ASW)) will be resurrected. Now do you understand the meaning of that statement? So ain't no contradictions from the Qurannic point of view.

Now, you and mlks_baby keep saying that. Isn't it clear to you that the bible that existed during the time of the prophet Muhammed (SAW) couldn't have had any variance with what is in the Quran? So instead of asking me what that Bible contained, read what the Quran says about biblical stories and there's your answer.

Peace

ajia23,

I still do not accept your explanations concerning the Angels being involved in creation. Going by the logic of your argument, the word 'us' will only be used by Allah if the angels were active participants in the event, either as initiators or executors. So, what role did they play in the creation of Adam as revealed in the Qu'ran? Were they creators or executors? If none of the above, then they must have been spectators, and that brings your argument down to its knees. If they were spectators, then the word 'us' would have been inapropriate.

Reading what the Qu'ran says can never be accepted as truth by Christians, because of the credibility of the Author and because of the express written instructions from the Bible.

Why would the Qu'ran ask you to believe the contents of the Bible and not provide you with the authentic one? If the Qu'ran suggests the Bible was indeed the truth of God's word at the time of that revelation, then we need to find out the contents of the Gospels at that time. I'm sure you will find no difference between the Gospels as found in the Bible today as the one that existed during Mohammed's time. That being said, the credibility of this man called Mohammed is definitely something that needs to be investigated.

We are going round in circles on that matter, so may be we should go to another. I guess you should prevail on your brothers in Kenya not to carry out their threats otherwise there will be one more similarity between  slam and Christianity-violent reactions to criticism, and it will afterall make non-sense of a lot of arguments put forward about peaceful christianity on this site.

@ GL going by what you said earlier-

It's funny when people say christianity doesn't allow people think. It's only in countries where christianity is the major religion (whether d people still practice or not) that you see a diversity of opinions. Can homosexuals go to any Islamic country and ask for rights? Can people insult God in Islamic countries? See what happens whenever someone insults Muhammad and compare to the many times Jesus gets insulted, particularly in the US - a country built on christian principles. Look at all the people behind civilization, those who invented one thing or the other, and especially those who proposed new ideas that changed the world e.g. Darwin. You see that majority of them were from christian backgrounds, some even ministers' children. Christianity is a religion of liberty, and that is why you see a lot of things in christian groups that you may never see in muslim groups. For example, even though fornication must be occuring in the muslim areas of this country, it is hidden. This is unlike in the south of Nigeria, or in the West, were it isn't seen as a big deal and most people wont even use that word.

What do you have to say in the light of new eveidence? Surely these people must have backing from the book the follow? wHAT DO YOU THINK?



[b]Kenya: Christians Condemn 'Da Vinci Code' Movie


 

   
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The East African Standard (Nairobi)

May 25, 2006
Posted to the web May 25, 2006

Steve Mkawale And Lawrence Aluru
Nairobi

Kenyan Christians took to the streets on Wednesday to protest against The Da Vinci Code movie, which premiered at the weekend.

Christian faithful march along the Nakuru/Nairobi highway on Wednesday to protest against The Da Vinci Code movie. Pic by Lucas Thuo

Waving twigs and placards, the protestors blocked the Nakuru/Nairobi highway and asked the Government to ban the movie. The faithful termed the film, starring Audrey Tautou and Tom Hanks, blasphemous.

More than 100 evangelical pastors, who joined the slogan-chanting faithful, blamed the Film Censorship Board for failing to notice that the movie was anti-Christian before it was screened in the country.

Bishop Stephen Kinuthia of New Life Gospel Church and Pastor Mike Brawan of Metro Church Kenya said the movie blasphemed Jesus Christ and was an affront to the tenets of the Christian faith.

"We want President Mwai Kibaki to issue a directive to ban the movie because he is a Christian and would not be happy to be associated with it," said Brawan.

The protestors warned theatre owners in Nakuru town against screening the movie.

"We will burn any cinema hall that screens the controversial film," said Kinuthia.

The protestors disrupted traffic for about an hour as they peacefully matched from Stem Hotel, where they were holding a breakfast meeting.

Elsewhere, Bishop Bonifes Adoyo of Christ is the Answer Ministries denounced Da Vinci as fictitious. Speaking in Nairobi, Dr Adoyo said the story was not founded on careful research but on a documented fraud passed as truth.

"In our view, Da Vinci Code is driven by greed for easy money and by a definite hatred for the Christian faith. It adds no value at all to anybody's life and it must be treated with the contempt it deserves," he said.

He urged the Government to honour the wishes of Christian community and stop the film from propagating falsehoods. Also present at the Press conference were Pastor David Oginde of Nairobi Pentecostal Church Valley Road and Rev John Nguuh of the Woodley Church.

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An affiliation of mainstream churches have also called on the Government to ban the movie. In a statement on Tuesday, church leaders pronounced a "curse" on the makers of the movie.

"May the producers equally perish with their silver!" Nairobi Pentecostal Church's David Oginde was quoted saying in the Press.

The movie claims that Jesus married Mary Magdalene, with whom he had a child.[/b][quote][/quote]



Already, the cursing is 'unchristianly' like you'd want me and others to believe, but these are not catholics-They are actually protestants. So, reach out to them before they batter the precious image of christianity you have been trying to protect.


@mlks_baby
It may interest you to know that the Quran never referred to Jesus(ASW) as christ. That's a name not even Jesus (ASW) called himself in the bible not to talk of the Quran. But it does refer to him as Messiah which is what Muslims believe him to be.

ajia23,

We are going round in circles on that matter, so may be we should go to another.

You are the one going around in circles. As long as you continue to hold on to the notion that the Bible is corrupted without any proofs, you will find yourself in absolute confusion. As vehement as Moslems are to impeach the credibility of the Bible, they cannot prove that is is adulterated. I have told you guys how best to do this. Produce the Bible in circulation during Mohammed's days and compare it to what we have today. I know you are aware that if no difference exists between both copies, then the whole of Islam is nothing but a lie. Don't you think you owe it to yourself and to the billions of people causght in this evil empire to find out this fact?

I am beginning to think that you just pick up statements from websites that are anti-christ and you publish them here without a clue as to what they are talking about. You need to pick up the Bible again and find out if Jesus acknowledged being the Christ or not. I do not want to give you the references here again because I've had to correct you a number of times about some of your allegations which cannot be substantiated.

What is the meaning of Christ? If you study the scriptures, you will find that the word Messaiah and Christ are used interchangeably. And for your information, a transliteration into today's language, will refer to Christ as the anointed One and His anointing. What is the anointing? That is the manifest prescence of the Holy Spirit. What did your Qu'ran say about Jesus and the Holy Spirit? if you find that out, then you will know He was refered to as the Christ by the Qu'ran. Even Mohammed never claimed having anything to do with the Holy Spirit, rather the claims were he wasn't sure if it was a demon manifesting whenever he had his numerous seizures while getting a revelation.

I guess you should prevail on your brothers in Kenya not to carry out their threats otherwise there will be one more similarity between slam and Christianity-violent reactions to criticism, and it will afterall make non-sense of a lot of arguments put forward about peaceful christianity on this site.

Whether those zealous Christians in Kenya go violent or not does not change Jesus' central teaching on peace, neither does it change Mohammed's central teaching of 'peace' through the sword. A Christian who manifests the fruit of violence shows that he/she is not connected to the 'tree' called Jesus. However, the Moslem who manifests violence will be showing a character that was well displayed by Mohammed.

You need to understand that the issue between Islam and Christianity cannot be well addressed until the two central characters - Jesus and Mohammed are the focus. Adherents may practice wrong, but the founders practiced what they preach. What did Jesus preached and practiced, and what did Mohammed preached and practiced?

Its so shameful that you guys want to eat out each other on this thread.

Firstly, A thread like these would generate more angers and hatred, the Jews and the Hindus aint crusifying themselves, so funny, its always the Christians and the Muslims, Dont we ever get tired of Looking for quotes to justify what we preach. Its plain and simple, for as long as this world exist, there is only one God, Call it Allah, i call it The name of the Father, of the son and Of the Holy spirit = 1 God, its still one. Whats all these noise. These quotes we all refer to are either written for a particular time or to some particular people, why the heck do y'all forget the word "Love", Pratice what you believe and let me pratice what i believe, no sHit.

And for the Two religion, if the Westerners and the Arabs truly believed in these scriptures, why did they take us as slaves in the first place? why did they refer to Africans as Animals in the PAst, is it that they missed the part of the scriptures, that said i made u all from my flesh? or did they forget the ones that said love your neighbour as your self or what you wont take dont give it to another?

Please lets be real, if we have to go by history, none of these religions and the scripture is worth living by and if we must not go by the history then lets go with the scriptures, Keep your Belief, let me keep mine, No hasstle!

This Controversy has created more confusion and more hatred in this world, its the reason for the bomb blast, its the reason for the Catoon riots, still the same reason for clashes in the north and in the west. why can't we all preach without casting aspersion on either of the Religions? We need to think and we need to see ourselves beyond Religious beliefs and Ethics.

@Ashiwaju,

You seem to have rushed in with more confusion than helps the case. I'm learning from whatever is being posted, as I'm sure many others are. You will never find a Muslim refer to the Trinity as "The name of the Father, of the son and Of the Holy spirit = 1 God" as you have done. Translation: Islam does not believe in the Trinity.

Take it easy. If you believe in your own love preaching, your tone will indicate it. This is a forum for debating issues, and people are bound to agree and disagree. We are learning - let the intellectuals who know the Bible and the Qur'an enlighten us more.

Peace.

I am a Muslim and i know where issues like this ends, why say you have to agree and disagree on what if i may ask? do you intend to rewrite the bible or the quran. pls be real, its written no doubt long ago and its either we believe in it or we leave it you know. "Do no take from it and do not add to it" - the bible and the quran

Why spill bloods on nothing? Pratice your beliefs and i would pratice mine and thats just what the quran says and who are we to even judge one another. I sent my ealier post just to make peace on both sides and Y commit more sins for discussing it?. You and i know that these thread would stay forever and you still wont agree, why not save the time for something else rather than burning all on each other. I said it point blank. If my own God is Allah and your own God is of the father,is of the son and is of the Holy spirit, whats the heck about that?

Get it and i tell you, if we have both preached for the intrest of peace without casting aspersion, i bet this world would be a better place for all to live with one another.

@Ashiwaju,

Who's spilling blood? Over what - a debate? Please.

Let those who find the issues interesting enough enjoy what people are posting. I'm a Christian and don't know it all - the Bible or the Qur'an. When people ask us to be silent over issues we can no longer afford to be ignorant about - that is the greater sin. The discussions will continue, period. As long as the issues continue and there are a few more things to say, people are free to do so.

Casting aspersions is not on my list; and the world will be a better place when we all try to understand why a book says there should be no other religion except the one it preaches, and anyone not submitting to it will suffer the edge of the sword. I want to understand why I'm not free to worship God as a Christian - and if my friends who are not Christians can tell me their own side of the story without the need for derisive language, understanding will be on the horizon. To push for an end to the discussion is worse than casting aspersions.

You may not enjoy the discussions. That's okay. Others are interested - without the castigations. Could we just let them shed more light on pressing issues here? Hmmm?

@ajia23,

ajia23:

Did you read the analogy that I gave you? God does something, he uses the angels to do it. He can refer to himself as I did it, or say we did it. It doesn't matter either way, the person who did it is God. We answered his parayers simply means He asked the angels to restore Job.

Let me take you into the account of creation as described by the Quran. God told the angels, I will create a vicegerent on earth. Then the angels said, why would you create what will spread mishief on earth. Then God said I know that which you do not know. He then created Adam (ASW), put him in Eden. But Adam sinned and was taken to earth and God's mission was established. Now, if God said, and We created Adam, this doesn't imply many gods, but He just meant, He created Adam with the knowledge and support of the angels.

I'm not sure what you meant by that. I'll just let it pass for now; or come back later to discuss with you how that the implications of what you've stated are grave indeed.

ajia23:

@mlks_baby
It may interest you to know that the Quran never referred to Jesus(ASW) as christ. That's a name not even Jesus (ASW) called himself in the bible not to talk of the Quran. But it does refer to him as Messiah which is what Muslims believe him to be.

Well, you should know that 'Christ' is simply the Greek (Christos) for the Hebrew word 'Messiah'. If the Qur'an favours the latter, it's interesting that several translators would go on then to use "Christ" several times instead of Messiah (see Yussuf Ali in Sura 3:45; 4:171-172; and 5:75). In any case, since they differ nothing in essence, the Qur'an acknowledges Jesus to be the very Christ, the Messiah.

Now, Jesus indeed acknowledged that He was the Christ and we've been through this before. Did He call Himself the Messiah in the Qur'an? You can't simply argue on this premise that just because He never called Himself this or that, therefore the Bible could be faulted - in just the same way the Qur'an could be faulted as He didn't call Himself Messiah in there. You may want to see Matt. 16:16-17 as a reference in the Bible. And when He was addressing His disciples, did He not call Himself 'Christ' in Matt. 23:8?  "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren."

@ TayoD

I will infact choose to ignore your statements on christ and messiah. I think probably when you get ome sleep and your head is clearer, you would think clearly about it. As for going round in circles, I am sure you are the one. You told me to give you proof the bible was altered, and I said read anything about the bible in the Quran-that's the correct version of the bible. It's needless to provide the bible that circulated in Mohammed's(SAW) time, when he has been shown the true facts.

@mlks_baby

Why are you all doing translations upon translations to arrive at Christ? Since Messiah also exists in English language, I think it will just be appropriate. Jesus (ASW) couldn't have called himself the Messiah in the Quran because all instances of Jesus (ASW) in the Quran are reported as third person singular. So, it was God infact that called him Messiah son of Mary. He could just have been called the anoited one in the Quran, as TayoD suggested, but he wasn't. As for the commentary of Yusuf Ali and so on, I have told you that whenever the commentators write something in parenthesis, they refer to the way they see it, and Yusuf Ali was only trying to explain the differences by calling nim christ Jesus, so that English readers will know what he meant, Now, I have studied Arabic to a level, and I know that Masih in Arabic means Messiah. I don't know what christ means, and since Messiah can be obtained in English it needless to call Jesus (ASW) christ when Messiah the more appropriate word exists. And till this day, Muslims believe him to be messiah because we expect him (Jesus 9ASW) ) to come back and lead the Muslims in a war against the anti-christ and his followers. I hope you will all be on the right side of the divide.

Now TayoD, you claim that anybody that is violent as a christian is not connected to the'tree called Jesus'. Well, I make bold to affirm that a Muslim who is violent especially when he is not provoked, is not exactly following the dictates of his religion. You can quote the Quran all you want and interprete it all you want, for me, since I became a muslim, I have read and interpreted it as the most realistic book to guide human beings on earth. If the Quran says we should fight back when we are persecuted, I think it supports the first law of nature-self-preservation. It is not pacifist as the bible is. Little wonder very few people actually practice what the bible says, because I'd hace expected all those people who engaged in a heated diatribe with Ajisafe, to have just turned the other side of the face instead of abusing him back. So may be going by your extrapolations TayoD, they may not be connected to the tree afterall.

The baseline is this, when Muslims are violent (whether in self-defence or aggression), others hang them and celebrate the fact that their holy books prescribed the use of force- when necessary to defend themselves- and classify Islam as an utterly violent religion. But when christians are violent, they are not connected to the tree called Jesus (ASW). They only do their own wish. This is employing double standards and may actually translate into hypocrisy by those who are making those Judgements. I have yet to see a christian that will incline to peace when he is about to be annihilated. I am sure the human in these christians will fight back even when it is against the teachings of his faith. And I understand the reaction, and I will not judge whoever it is. And I also demand the same any time there is violence perpetrated by Muslims, so long as there is a group who say that the Islamic Holy books have been mis-applied, I expect others to absolve Islam of their wrongdoings and instead focus on the immediate and remote causes of their actions, and consequently seek to implement corrective measures. But seeking to denigrate an entire religious faith based on what was revealed in their books, and subjectively interpreted by adherents is hypocrisy and denial of the truth.

I think everyone has started defending Islam or christianity, not focusing on the question.

Anyway, here is my catch:

Similarities
- some context in Old testament and Quran are similar
- both have roots from Abraham

Differencies
- Quran was written by God and given to Mohammed, Bible was written by men inspired by God
- Christians are children of God, Moslems are servants of God.
- Christianity is about faith and Grace, Islam is about works alone.
- Islam does not accept the Sonship of Christ but as a high priest, even sitting with God on Judgement day.
- Islam does not belive in divine miracles - Does not belive in Christs divine conception, ascention, belives that Miracles is only attributed to Christ alone.
- Islam does not Believe in Holy spirit (In fact, Moslems see Mohammed as the comforter Jesus promised to send after he ascended)
- Christianity preaches tolerance among all races, Islam is warlike to any opposition. (see the feedback to Christiaans vs Da Vinci Code to Moslems vs Mohammed cartoon)

In the end there is more stark differencies than similarities.

@ajia23,

It's either you're closing your eyes to the facts or just wanting to be conveniently political for the sake of defending your own position. 'Christ' is the very same thing as 'Messiah' - no difference at all: one is Greek, the other is Hebrew ['Messiah' is not English]. Your arguments sound so childish as if to say that Allah is not God because the English for "God" is not Arabic; and since the Qur'an uses a more appropriate Arabic designation "Allah", then there's no need to call Him 'God'. When you said that the Messiah will come and lead a war against the "anti-christ", I supposed you'd have rather used "anti-messiah" instead for the Dajjal (as I don't recollect having read of the 'dajjal' [the 'anti-christ'] in the Qur'an).

Look, Christ = Messiah; and if that is what God called Jesus, there's no going round the issue. If Yussuf Ali was wrong in using 'Christ' instead of 'Messiah', every other translator then was wrong in using English equivalents to translate the Qur'an. Let me help you with yet another verse of the Bible to show that they are the very same designation:

"The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.  Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am He." (John 4:25-26).

What could be clearer than that?