Ajia23, I don't think those Kenyans did anything wrong by protesting, or even insulting the author or producer of Da Vinci Code. Compare that to the reaction of muslims over the Danish cartoons. I don't see anything wrong with their call for the banning of the movie, though I think it would have been wiser to advise their members not to watch the movie. Of course it is wrong to burn someone's cinema for showing a movie you don't like and we can expect they would face the legal consequences of doing that. If what you were saying is that the bible encourages that, you're wrong. John once wanted to call fire upon some people but Jesus refused.

Actually, it seems u didnt understand the part of my post you quoted. To explain it further, consider the Da Vinci Code book and movie produced in a country built on christian principles. It hasn't been banned, the author and producer have not been killed. This can not happen in a muslim country; for a citizen to write blasphemous things about Islam. That's what I was saying there.

This whole debate only answers the question the author of this thread asked. It shows that christianity is different from islam. We christians have been talking from the bible, just as you and other muslims have been talking from the Koran's perspective. We've been talking about Jesus and other issues, and we can't come to a meeting point because the Koran says different things about these issues from the bible. Since Christianity is based on the bible's revelation and Islam is based on the Koran's, we can only conclude that Christianity is fundamentally different from Islam. I say fundamentally because there are seeming similarities, but when we get to the core of it, our monothesitic views are about all the similarity there is.


Please note that I'm not in any way saying Islam is inferior to Christianity, all I'm saying is that they hold two very different beliefs on an issue that is the foundation of Christianity and are therefore different. It would help if you think of it as Christians and muslims being people who hold different views on certain issues.


Mamaput, we're not disputing that there are similarities btw the two religions. All we're saying is that the similarities aren't much more than our monotheistic views. It is true the two holy books talk of several ppl like Abraham, Isaac, Jesus etc. However, the Koran says some very important things (according to the bible) differently. The main difference btw the two religions is that the Koran sees Jesus as a prophet and denies that He died and rose. The issue here is that this is the foundation of Christianity. Denying that has made Islam very different from Christianity, as the bible even warns against doctrines that would deny Jesus' divinity. If Islam didn't deny that, it would have been seen in the same light as some other "christian" groups with different doctrines.

Bibi, is there any proof that God wrote the Koran? How, when and where did He write it? Where is the original Koran He wrote, how did He send it to Mohammed and were there witnesses?

Actually those similarities you mentioned arent so similar when you consider that some of the important things about Abraham - Isaac being his heir - are denied by the Koran. Plus, Christianity is based on the New Testament, this doen't diminish the importance of the OT though. However, anything that agrees with the OT, but not the NT is at best Judaism. The difference between Chrstianity and Judaism is just the NT.

Ajia23, it is very true that when muslims are violent ppl link it to the Koran but when christians are violent we say they're acting on their own. It's the same as what I said in my last post about those protesting Kenyans. I think the reason is that muslims around the world do these things all the time in the name of religion. We have much fewer cases today of christians fighting and killing in the name of Christianity. Plus, they say (i've not read it) that the Koran tells muslims to kill unbelievers, but the bible preaches peace. You must face the fact that muslims haven't helped it, they back their actions up with the Koran. They say if they die with the blood of an unbeliever on their hands they'll go straight to heaven. They even shoult "Allah" as they're doing it. They even kill themselves. All this portrays Islam as violent. A Jordanian editor said during the Danish cartoon row that all these terrorism done in the name of Islam are worse than the cartoons, they almost killed him. It is this violence we see round the world that makes ppl say Islam is violent.

There are many things christians do that's wrong, but why it seems different is that whenever a christian does something "wrong", so many other christians come out to fight it and even try to force them to stop doing it. On the contrary, take the case of Amina Lawal and other muslim ladies sentenced to death by Sharia. They run to Western countries for help. The whole world condemns the sentence, including foreign (usually in Western countries) muslim clerics. But the Islamic world never does anything to prevent such sentences from being given next time. It's this their lack of action against violence that's the problem.

Anyway i have learned somethings here and one of them is that even Christians are not united
Thats why we have the so called ecumenical mass.
I am Catholic and my ex is protestant.
When it came to baptizing my kids i ended up baptizing them protestant. This irritated my family a bit but they ended up saying at least they are baptized.
I had my reasons for doiing that .The laws of the church was one of them.
The church forbidds taking the pill for example and you are not allowed to marry a second time in the church if your husband is still alive. These are just small examples.
Most people here do not abied but when you grow up in Nigeria . you have a different attude to religion.
When i was at school my mates used to make fun of hausas because of their religion among other things and those in my school suffered. Some times someone would shit in their locker.

@ GL

Most of what you said last were absolute truths that I cannot but agree. You have shown a rare impartiality in those posts. I applaud you for that. But you know, whenever Muslims react in an unseemly manner to these things and a few Muslims who have another perspective to things rise up to say this is wrong, they become the punching bags of both sides, muslim and otherwise. I have been in this position so many times. The lack of support for these people by non-muslims and their eventual categorization as violent always makes the extremists win. I just want you to imagine when the Roman empire was carrying out it's campaign of plunders and killings, there may have been some few voices that protested against this, but they were hardly heard. Now this did not mean christianity was all about violence. That is my dilenma. Islam and christianity are different-there's no doubt about that.

About the cartoon riots and the Da Vinci protests, it is appropriate for people to express thier grievances, and I certainly would not want violence to be a part of those protests, but it so happens that as a result of stereotypes, the likely hood of violence when muslims protest is almost approaching a probability of 1. However, cursing or threatening is equally condemnable and could easily degenerate to violence. I am definitely not alluding to the fact that the bible supports it, no, but rather I cited that example to show that any people can overstep the boundaries,.

@ mlks_baby

If you say messiah means christ, then I concede to you that you could call the Masih Dajjal the anti-christ. I just explained that it seems more natural for me to use the English variant of the word, since I can translate it to Messiah. It's wrong for you to say Messiah is not English. If it has been assimilated into English, then it is English. Go check your dictionary. It may have had Hebrew origins, but it's English. Please avoid these technicalities, as it distracts from the main premise. Thanks.

why don't you the christains think deep,if you said he is the son
of GOD that means mary is the wife of God, but we believe jesus
is like any other prophets they both preach on one God. why don't you think
about it before you post your comments. all we the muslims believe in is
Allah is one and is messenger Muhhammad.

why don't you the christains think deep,if you said he is the son of GOD that means mary is the wife of God, but we believe jesus is like any other prophets they both preach on one God. why don't you think about it before you post your comments. all we the muslims believe in is Allah is one and is messenger Muhhammad.

ikilima,
Perhaps you need to do some thinking beyond the physical. How can you say God has a wife? Christianity, unlike Islam does not teach the existence of male and female sexes in heaven. Jesus rebuked the Jews who were thinking that way, and I believe he will call the Islamic teachings of Harems in Heaven as a blasphemy too. I would rather take His Word for it than that spoken by Mohammed because He claims He is from the Father ans is One with His Father.

No where will you find the Bible teaching that Mary is the Mother of God, rather Mary is the mother of the man, Jesus. This may seem confusing to you, but to those of us who believe, "Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:" Mark 4:11.

Mary only gave birth to the physical body that God chose to inhabit. As the scriptures say in Hebrews 10:5 "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:"Mary is the mother of that sinless body.

I could go on and on, but I doubt you will undrstand.

@ajia23,

My pointing out the difference is to distingusih between talk and noise. If that's the way you see it, then both Christ and Messiah are English words derived from Greek and Hebrew respectively. And to that effect, there's no difference between the two. Jesus is the Messiah, the very Christ; and more than anything else, that points to the fact that He is the Saviour.

@ikilima,

Perhaps, the cheese cuts both ways: we all need to think carefully about what we're posting. Islam rejects the confession that Jesus is the Son of God and instead offers that He is just like any other prophet. Think deeply about it yourself:

  # which of the other prophets could have been called the Messiah (or "Christ"?

  # which of the other prophets lived a sinless life?

  # which of the other prophets could be described in the exclusive way that the Qur'an accords Jesus?

  # which of the other prophets is as great as Jesus, who Islam recognizes is the only one to conquer/slay the dajjal (anti-Christ)?

  # which of the other prophets had a supernatural birth?

  # which of the other prophets is worthy to lead the battle of the end-time and deliver mankind from the anti-christ as taught in Islam?

So, is He just like any other prophet, as you're led to believe in Islam?

Now concerning your enquiry about the confession that Jesus is the Son of God, neither the Qur'an nor the Bible suggests that Mary is the wife of God, and any Muslim drawing that inference is going beyond the stipulated bounds of either faiths. You may want to take a conveniently "Muslim-only" posture to these matters; but have you considered what the Bible has to say about Jesus? Think about each of the questions above: they may help you think deeply before posting any comments.

@ mlks_baby

Adam(ASW) neither had a father nor mother, so if you view Jesus as a Miracle, Adam(ASW) I suppose was an even greater miracle. However, it is beyond me to compare the Prophets of God. Let God handle that himself. It is wrong to compare Prophet's in Islam, they all have their special purposes. Jesus (ASW) is special, there's no denying that, but I wouldn't want to engage in self gratifying praise at how superior my own Prophet is over theirs. They are all ours too in Islam.

Please enjoy your faith, and i will enjoy mine too.

@ajia23,

I trust you enjoyed your Sunday. I'm seeking a dialogue - nothing more or less; and that's why I posts replies to any issue that merits my responses. Here are my observations in your latest rejoinder:

ajia23:

Adam(ASW) neither had a father nor mother, so if you view Jesus as a Miracle, Adam(ASW) I suppose was an even greater miracle.

That's your Muslim view, and there's no need to argue that with you. In the Christian perpective, however, the one who made everything is greater than the one who was created. In that respect, Christ was greater than Adam in by far many ways, because the latter was created by the former. Surprised? Let me help you.

In Gen. 1:26, when God said, "Let Us make man," the Trinity was there speaking in divine conference. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit created man, so that in the New Testament, it is not amazing to find Jesus referenced as the Creator of Adam: "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . .He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not"__and__"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist" (John 1:3,10 and Col. 1:16-17). All the NT references quoted point to Jesus Christ, and as you can see, He was and is greater than Adam.

Of course, this may not go down well with you as a Muslim who holds tenaciously to the Qur'anic teaching that Jesus was created by Allah in the similitude of Adam (Sura 3:59). Even then, when you consider the events of Jesus' conception and birth, you don't find Adam or any other prophet for that matter being described in the way the Messiah was. In Sura 3:45, He is titled a "Word" from Allah - and don't even suppose for a moment that this "Word" simply means an "announcement". There's no other way to understand this title in its context in that verse than that Jesus is the Divine Word as John 1:1 boldly declares - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." It was in recognition of His deity that the inspired apostle John was shown Jesus wearing a vesture with His indisputable and proper name of " The Word of God" in Rev. 19:13. That is what Jesus was called: "The Word of God."

Now tell me, what other prophet in the Qur'an or Islamic tradition bears this title or name? The Qur'an calls Jesus the "Word" and no other prophet stands shoulder to shoulder with Him in that immaculate designation.

ajia23:

However, it is beyond me to compare the Prophets of God. Let God handle that himself. It is wrong to compare Prophet's in Islam, they all have their special purposes. Jesus (ASW) is special, there's no denying that, but I wouldn't want to engage in self gratifying praise at how superior my own Prophet is over theirs. They are all ours too in Islam.

Let me share with you what you missing about this. First, I didn't start the comparison: my responses took the opportunity to respectfully point out this misconception to ikilima about Jesus being like any other prophet. No Muslim can actually believe in Jesus without without recognizing Him as the Messiah; and this recognition makes sense by confessing Him as such. The question is, have you taken time out to seriously consider why Jesus alone is called the Messiah in the Qur'an? If Mohammed was borrowing the concept from the Jews, then it is clear that he was recognizing Jesus as the Saviour, because that is what "the Messiah" points to. Mere lip service is useless in saying that we believe in Jesus, but ignore the fact that He is the Messiah, the very Christ - the Saviour.

Second, Muslims many times compare the prophets in Islam. How many times have they said that Mohammed is "the greatest prophet", "the last prophet", "the Noble Prophet" or "THE prophet of Allah". Are they saying that the other prophets are not of Allah? In reciting the Kalima (confession that makes someone a Muslim), the confession/profession that Mohammed is Allah's prophet bears this out: "Ashadu an La Ilaha illa-llah, wa Ashhadu anna Muhammadan Rasulullah" which, roughly translated into English, reads: "I bear witness that nothing deserves to be worshipped except Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah." This confession is commonly known as the "Two Testimonies", the second part of which is found in the Qur'an in Sura 48:29; and an even stronger one in Sura 33:40 where Mohammed is called "the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets." If that was not comparing by placing Mohammed above the other prophets, wat do you call that?

Since it is wrong to compare Prophets in Islam, then the Qur'an has not helped us in that respect; unless you would like to admit that you were in the wrong to assume that.

ajia23:

Please enjoy your faith, and i will enjoy mine too.

Faith that does not ask questions or ignore important issues does not help anyone. God expects intelligent obedience from those professing to know and follow Him; and there are so many questions people are asking on either side today. I don't have all the answers, but I certainly enjoy being challenged to understand my faith the more: that way I can enjoy it when it dispels uncertainties in my heart.

Enjoy.

mlks_baby,

I doff my hat to you. I have watched your arguments so far and I must say that I am impressed. Your knowledge of the Qu'ran is unquestionsable and I can't but wonder how you got your information. Are you a former Moslem or could it be that you are a theologian who studied the Qu'ran as a text? I am curious.

Your references to the scriptures also show one who has studied to show himself approved, and I thank God that there are still some Christians who delve into the dialectics of the Bible and are able to get the life that is embedded in the scriptures.

Keep up the good work. I've enjoyed reading your posts.

I have followed this debate right from the begining and i found it interesting, insultive through out at the same time.
As far as this debate is concern it has not met the aim at which the initiator had proposed, instead it grew into excessive insults which is very unhealthy. The various approaches so far had neglected the respect for other people`s views towards his or her religion.
Prophet Muhammed and Jesus Christ both came and met a particular religion on ground and were not at anytime against those religion met on ground.
Jesus Christ said he has not come to to condemn the law (mosaic law). And he went on to preach his message with peace that we find difficult to emulate from. He suffered bruality of the highest order despite his peaceful preachings. But slowly but steadily his messages were accepted.
Prophet Muhammed also came with the mesage and he met concrete blocks but with patience and perseverance, the message was accepted to the extent that his worst enemies during the propagation of Islam became his closest companions.
But it is very unfortunate that non of the parties to this debate has exhibited this characters displayed by these great men of GOD.
GOD from both books said, "I am the lord your GOD in whom belongs everything that exists and had existed between the heaven and earth". This statement alone has defeated the perceived similarities and differences in which this debate tends to extract. With this statement, whether Jesus is the Son of GOD or Prophet Muhammed is the Messenger of GOD, they both fall under the Authority and Command of the Almighty GOD, as Jesus Christ had always claimed.
So therefore, my friends, should we fail or find it difficult to emulate the peaceful characters of these two great men i will suggest that we end this debate but if on the contrary, then with peace we shall be able to understand respect our views of which i would love to be part of it.
Peace has always been the basis of togetherness and understanding let`s have it at the back of our minds.

Sallam/Shalom.

Isaho,

Thanks for your piece.
However, I beg to differ on the issue of regarding both Jesus Christ and Mohammed as Men of Peace. Jesus is described in the Bible as the Prince of Peace, and He lived it out through and through. Mohammed on the other hand may have displayed some peaceful behavior, but I personally do not believe he was a man of peace. History and the many blood shed through his hands will immediately tell you otherwise. But in all essence, Mohammed was only peaceful to the extent that you do not distrub his peace, and so long as you are either in subjection to the Islamic Government or you 'convert' to be a Moslem. No matter how much you disturbed the peace of Jesus, He remained peaceful to the end. Now that is what it is to be a man of peace.

mamaput:

Anyway i have learned somethings here and one of them is that even Christians are not united

Here's what I've read about this issue:

Different denominations overplay and/or downplay certain issues in the bible. This is the basis of the different denominations. This is usually influenced by the background and personalities of the founders. For example, Nigerians (or Africans) believe there are always supernatural forces at work and do things to enable them overcome the evil forces and gain the favour of the good force. It is more likely to see Nigerian churches taking deliverance more seriously than catholic churches, which have european origins. It is also more likely to see a Nigerian catholic talking about spirits and demons than an American catholic.

There are fundamental christian doctrines such as Trinity, Virgin birth, Jesus' Deity, death and resurrection etc. There are also non-fundamental doctrines such as baptism methods, deliverance, abortion, birth control, dressingetc. Taking into note the meaning of chrisitanity, and the fact that christians accept the authority of the bible, the fundamental doctrines are so essential to christianity that anyone who doesn't believe in them isn't considered a christian. There's a little allowance for variation with the non-fundamental doctrines. However, some denominations go so far out of what the bible allows and other denominations refuse to align with them. These allowances are allowed (this is my own opinion now) because the bible isn't explicit on these issues.

The Jehova's Witnesses for example, differ on fundamental dotrines and aren't considered as christians by many christians. Most denominations have their own version of many non-fundamental doctrines, though many of these versions are the similar. The Catholic church, however, has some really different versions of some non-fundamental doctrines that are clearly unbiblical, but since those doctrines aren't fundamental to christianity, they are considered Christians.

There's this maxim:

In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; and in all things charity.

If all christians go by this, denominationalism wouldn't look like a big issue anymore.

Ajia23,

I believe there are many muslims who hate this violence, but they have to be more active in rescuing their religion from irrational extremists. The muslims in America condemned the violence that followed the Danish cartoons, but we didn't hear of any sanctions. They're not doing anything to prevent a future occurence, even though we know a future provocation would bring about such a reaction. There was a case of female students beating up their teacher and taking to the streets because a female teacher (i dont know her religion) seized a Koran from a girl who was reading it during a class after she'd been warned to stop. This is very abnormal of girls and that it happened during the Danish cartoon row only goes to show that some muslim youths are beginning to think that's the right way to handle issues. It is very wrong for students to insult their teachers, not to talk of beating a teacher. I believe the school should have been closed down, or the girls involved should have been suspended for a year and denied admission into any other govt. school for the period. We didn't hear anything about the girls being punished. This is what I mean by muslims not doing anything. Even if the govt. didnt, muslim groups could have called for punishment.


If the opposition weren't persistent, the Roman Catholic church would have been the only church now. Many protestants were killed in the process, but eventually they were able to pull away from the RC church. Theirs was a very active opposition. They weren't afraid to criticize the RC because they were sure that those practices were unbiblical. They wanted to return to the bible. The oppostion to the violence within Islam is quite passive. I guess no one wants to risk getting killed. That's very understandable, but I believe there must be a way to handle this.


It's very true that people are prone to overstepping boundaries. Many times, we carry our personal grievances and attitudes into religion and make the religion look bad. Even though it isn't fashionable to fight in Christendom anymore, there are some things we do here in Nigeria that I believe are unbiblical. Like praying your enemy should fall down and die. I have prayed some of those prayers myself and am as guilty as anyone else, but I believe it's wrong. It's violent (I know they encourage "violent" prayers). Jesus thought to pray for - not against- our enemies.

ajia23:

@ mlks_baby

Adam(ASW) neither had a father nor mother, so if you view Jesus as a Miracle, Adam(ASW) I suppose was an even greater miracle. However, it is beyond me to compare the Prophets of God. Let God handle that himself. It is wrong to compare Prophet's in Islam, they all have their special purposes. Jesus (ASW) is special, there's no denying that, but I wouldn't want to engage in self gratifying praise at how superior my own Prophet is over theirs. They are all ours too in Islam.

Please enjoy your faith, and i will enjoy mine too.

Both Adam and Jesus are miracles. The bible calls Jesus the Second Adam. They were both born without sin. I believe that it is wrong to compare prophets because they are to do God's bidding, not that of men. It is God who gives them the assignment, we are to receive them.

I'm curious, what's this "ASW" stuff you write behind names?

ikilima:

why don't you the christains think deep,if you said he is the son
of GOD that means mary is the wife of God, but we believe jesus
is like any other prophets they both preach on one God. why don't you think
about it before you post your comments. all we the muslims believe in is
Allah is one and is messenger Muhhammad.

The bible already explains that how Jesus was born so there's no question about Mary being God's wife. You have to understand that even though the Koran also talks about Jesus and other prophets, Christians go by the Bible's account ONLY. According to the bible, Jesus said He is the Son of God. We believe it.

BTW, why is Muhammed regarded greater when he sinned and Jesus didn't?

GL,

Just for correction. The Bible refered to Jesus as the 'Last Adam' and not the second Adam. These are two different things altogether.

The issue of comparing Prophets is a thing done by Islam and not christianity. There is actually no basis of comparison between Jesus and others, just like there is no basis of comparison between the creature and its creator.

@TayoD,

Well, as you rightly observed, I'm a former Muslim and now a "babe in Christ," and have spent time studying both the Bible and the Qur'an. Presently, I'm studying the Hadith as well - not in any professional or theological sense, but for the sake of my many dear Muslim friends to whom I'd like to bring the Gospel of the loving grace of God in Jesus Christ, the Messiah, the Saviour. Thanks for your compliments and encouragements - you've always posted some very interesting rejoinders as well; and more grace to you.

@ISAHO,

It'd be such an interesting exercise to see you join the discussion, and please do. We do our best to refrain from derisive expressions and opprobriums in this very sensitive discussions; but that should not mean that we ignore the issues and play lightly on them. The differences far outweigh the similarities in both faiths, and there are questions far more involved than just delineating contrasts betweem them. Of course, there are apparent similarities; and an attempt to outline such really translates into what some of our friends ask us not to be engaged in while unwittingly doing the same. For example, some say that it is wrong to comapre Prophets in Islam, but it often turns out that they make this comparison themselves.

When you actually take the time to look at the life and ministries of the Prophets, you cannot miss the fact that they are quite contrasted, and rightly so. If the Qur'an calls Muhammad the Seal of the Prophets, wouldn't it be sensible to ask how and why that is so? Even the Lord Jesus Christ is compared to other prophets in the Bible; and He asked His disciples about who He was, and the answers from His disciples showed how people compared Him to other prophets in Matt. 16:13-17. Even so, He went so far as to establish the fact that He was greater than all the Prophets; for He was clearly referring to Himself when He said "a greater than Solomon is here" (Matt. 12:42). You'll find He also compared John the baptist to the other prophets - "Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist" (Luke 7:28). Lastly, a casual reading of Hebrews in the Bible shows how Jesus was contrasted with Moses and the angels - for no other reason than to show why Jesus is the mediator of the everlasting New Covenant (meaning that no other prophet comes after Him as far as salvation is concerned).

Then it becomes necessary to ask how these prophets are great and how some are greater than the others. As long as Muslims have again and again compared prophets, it is untenable for them to come up and offer a retract of this comparisons just because it would suit their purposes better.

It would be such a welcome to read your contributions and ignore the perceived derogations. I've stated earlier that I seek dialogue - nothing more or less.

@GL,

I'm curious, what's this "ASW" stuff you write behind names?

They are somewhat of an acronym variously written as ASW/SAAW/SAW, but mostly as SAW/s.a.w. They are abbreviations for the words "[b]S[/b]alla [b]A[/b]llahu '[b]A[/b]laihi [b]W[/b]a [b]S[/b]allam", an expression that Muslims use whenever the name of Prophet Muhammed is mentioned or written, and which means : "may the blessing and the peace of Allah be upon him". It's an invocation, but of course, it is also used after the mention of any of the prophets in Islamic tradition.

The alternate expression used is: "A[/b]laihis[b]s[/b]alatu [b]W[/b]assalam" (ASW) and simply means: "On Him (Muhammad) are the blessings and the peace of Allah." Muslim writers in English sometimes use PBUH (Peace Be Upon Him), but most prefer the ASW.

Christians do not use any such expressions for any of the prophets because it may very easily translate into a title that is unmerited, in which case we have in our day most people called "Reverend", "His Eminence", "His Grace", "His Holiness" and "The Most Right Reverend". I don't use any such titles in addressing any leader of the Church, because as far as I'm concerned, [b]only God is alone worthy to be called Reverend (He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and reverend is his name - Psa. 111:9). Two reasons I usually share with a few friends that ask me why I assume this posture of not arrogating such titles to anyone, are found in these scripture texts:

   # Job 32:22 - "For I know not to give flattering titles; in so doing my maker would soon take me away."

   # I Cor. 4:6 -  ". . .ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."

There's only one among men whose name deserves the greatest title in the universe - Jesus. At the mention of His name, every knee will bow and tongues will confess Him as "Lord" to the glory of God the Father. I'd always say that "Jesus is Lord" or just call Him "the Lord Jesus Christ". Muslims don't believe He is Lord, so you won't see them writing 'Lord' besides His name; and because I'm no longer a Muslim, I don't use the ASW after mentioning any prophet; even though I have great love and respect for those who do. God bless them all.

@ TayoD and Mlks_baby

Before you commence an episode of exultant jubilation, let me show you some of your errors. @ mlks_baby, you don't know Islam like you think you do, and this is rather unfortunate.

Second, Muslims many times compare the prophets in Islam. How many times have they said that Muhammad is "the greatest prophet", "the last prophet", "the Noble Prophet" or "THE prophet of Allah". Are they saying that the other prophets are not of Allah? In reciting the Kalima (confession that makes someone a Muslim), the confession/profession that Muhammad is Allah's prophet bears this out: "Ashadu an La Ilaha illa-llah, wa Ashhadu anna Muhammadan Rasulullah" which, roughly translated into English, reads: "I bear witness that nothing deserves to be worshipped except Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah." This confession is commonly known as the "Two Testimonies", the second part of which is found in the Qur'an in Sura 48:29; and an even stronger one in Sura 33:40 where Muhammad is called "the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets." If that was not comparing by placing Muhammad above the other prophets, what do you call that?

Since it is wrong to compare Prophets in Islam, then the Qur'an has not helped us in that respect; unless you would like to admit that you were in the wrong to assume that.

I'd like to point out your error here. The Quran NEVER compares any of the Prohets with each other. By stating that Muhammed (SAW) was the seal of Prohets, it did not state that He (SAW) was greater than any other Prophet. It only stated that He is the seal meaning, the end/last/final etc Prophet. Except you can bring a verse that explicitly states so, please drop that belief. You may be right that some Muslims compare the Prophets- nevertheless it does not make it right to do so. I try to correct them about this whenever it is done where I am present.

The issue of comparing Prophets is a thing done by Islam and not christianity. There is actually no basis of comparison between Jesus and others, just like there is no basis of comparison between the creature and its creator.

TayoD, I hope this shows you that you are so wrong about that stement, except if mlks_baby made a mistake when she said this

Even the Lord Jesus Christ is compared to other prophets in the Bible; and He asked His disciples about who He was, and the answers from His disciples showed how people compared Him to other prophets in Matt. 16:13-17. Even so, He went so far as to establish the fact that He was greater than all the Prophets; for He was clearly referring to Himself when He said "a greater than Solomon is here" (Matt. 12:42). You'll find He also compared John the baptist to the other prophets - "Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist" (Luke 7:28). Lastly, a casual reading of Hebrews in the Bible shows how Jesus was contrasted with Moses and the angels - for no other reason than to show why Jesus is the mediator of the everlasting New Covenant (meaning that no other prophet comes after Him as far as salvation is concerned).

Now who is doing the comparison?


Still on the queries you raised mlks_baby, the Quran refers to Jesus (ASW) as the Word, yes, and all it means is that Jesus (ASW) was spoken by God to be and He was. In many instances in the narration of the creation in the Quran, God says all I have to say is Be, and it is. And in like manner did He describe the creation of Jesus (ASW). I hope that answers your question.

And as for the Shahadah which means witness, Muslims are required to say it to be in the state of belief. The reason they are required to testify to the messengership of Muhammed (SAW) is simple, at that time, He was denied as the Prophet and called a magician by the Quraish, so a Muslim was required to testify to his messengership as a sort of affirmation in believing in Islam completely.

GL is definitely right. It is wrong to compare the Prophets. Whether Jesus (ASW) was called the last Adam or the second Adam means nothing, so long as he is related to Adam in the bible, especially as He and Adam (ASW) share some things in common as enumerated by GL.

That Jesus (ASW) did not sin is a belief held in the bible-not the Quran. You said Muhammed(SAW) sinned, I am not saying He did not, neither am I confirming your position, but please provide your references.

On the issue of ASW, your confusion abput Islam surely becomes more apparent mlks_baby. Even though you got the meaning right, the application is definitely wrong. ASW mean On him be peace, and it refers to the person after which the invocation is made, not Muhammed (SAW). And this does not in anyway translate to a title. Praying for the Prophates of God is not a title like you would say "his eminence". And you think they are unmerited? Hmmm, I believe they deserve it if only for the work they did inspite of all the persecution they faced. This is yet another attestation to the fact that Islam does not discriminate against or compare any Prophet of God.

And about titles, infact the Prophet (SAW) asked his followers to desist from appending any to him so that they do not elevate him beyond what he was-a human. So mlks_baby, please do more research. Aslo, it's good to know you are studying the hadiths. I hope you are not just reading them, but studying the Ulsoolul Hadiths which is the science of the hadiths, otherwise you'll get very confused and jumble up facts.

There is something we b oth definitely agree on, and that is the query system of learning thigs. That way, we come up stronger based on new knowledge acquired. I have learnt a lot more about Islam and christianity since I joined this community, and I am not averse to people questioning what I believe in, but when they make statements that I know to be false and I show them the explanations and they choose to hold on to their beliefs however wrong, I just say to them, practice what you believe. If I did not respond to your query before saying this, it might have been different. I gave an analogy which you preferred to ignore with a caveat that you were going to get back on it. I am still expecting that response.

I think the topic is suppose to be about similarities and difference between Islam and Christianity. But the first response sounds like an attack on Islam.

Please we don't want to hear what anybody believes in. We want comparisons if there are any.

For all christians on Nairaland, you don't really have to convert to Islam. You can continue being christians.
For all muslims on Nairaland, you have no power to convert anybody to Islam.

The qur'an said There is no compulsion in religion

This argument can go on forever. Being sentimental doesn't help. Instead try to clarify areas of your religion that you think are misunderstood.
Saying Muhammad is a prophet doesn't make sense to most christians just like Jesus Is Lord doesn't make sense to any muslim

Please Nobody should think he/she is always right.

@TayoD, a civilised person is not suppose to show hate. But its not your fault, most Nigerians(both christians and muslims) tend to believe its a religious duty to hate the other religion. Just want you to take a look at the following.
You don't really have to like or believe it.

Prophet Muhammad's Charter of Priviledges to Christians
A Letter to the Monks of St. Catherine Monastry
Dr. A. Zahoor and Dr. Z. Haq, The Islamic Civilisation
(Copyright 1990, 1997, All Rights Reserved)

In 628 C.E. Prophet Muhammad (s) granted a Charter of Privileges to the monks of St. Catherine Monastery in Mt. Sinai. It consisted of several clauses covering all aspects of human rights including such topics as the protection of Christians, freedom of worship and movement, freedom to appoint their own judges and to own and maintain their property, exemption from military service, and the right to protection in war.

An English translation of that document is presented below.

This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them.

Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by Allah! I hold out against anything that displeases them.

No compulsion is to be on them.

Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries.

No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims' houses.

Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God's covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate.

No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight.

The Muslims are to fight for them.

If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray.

Their churches are to be respected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants.

No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).

@ IG

If you took time to read my earlier posts, you'll see that I already posted the full version of that convenant Muhamad (SAW) had with the christians before. But, the christians I have been engaged with just managed to conveniently ignore it and instead choose to hold on to their prejudical and aberrant view that Muhamad (SAW) was actually a man given to violence.

@ajia23,

Thank you for your rejoinders. That you're claiming I made false statements is quite another matter entirely; so let me address some of your concerns (I'll take them up in about three stages to provide for easy reading).

ajia23:

Before you commence an episode of exultant jubilation, let me show you some of your errors. @ mlks_baby, you don't know Islam like you think you do, and this is rather unfortunate.

I never boasted that I knew everything about Islam nor that I knew all the answers, and hope that was clear to you right from the onset, so there's nothing unfortunate about that. In the second place, you've made so many mistakes about Islam and Christianity, and continue to make them, even if you deny this. It is rather unfortunate that while I was a Muslim, most of my questions were not properly addressed; and that's partly why I considered Christianity and became a convert. That Islam does not provide answers to some of my questions does not translate into my being a Muslim apologist, neither in the past nor the present.

ajia23:

I'd like to point out your error here. The Quran NEVER compares any of the Prohets with each other. By stating that Muhammed (SAW) was the seal of Prohets, it did not state that He (SAW) was greater than any other Prophet. It only stated that He is the seal meaning, the end/last/final etc Prophet. Except you can bring a verse that explicitly states so, please drop that belief. You may be right that some Muslims compare the Prophets- nevertheless it does not make it right to do so. I try to correct them about this whenever it is done where I am present.

Nothing new - many Muslims who do the comparisons retract the moment you point out their fallacy to them, and you sound like one of them (nothing derogatory to you). In anycase, like I said earlier, Christianity is not timid to show these contrasts because of the clear reasons stated in the Bible. Mohammed is named but four times in the Qur'an (as I suppose - correct me if I'm wrong). However, by stating that Mohammed was the Seal of the Prophets, the Qur'an has made a clear contrast between him and the other prophets - and there's no going round the issue. Muslim scholars past and present often infer this comparison and contrast in their works. It may be wrong to compare them, but whatever you feel is the reason in Islamic tradition to not comtrast the Prophets is personally yours and those who feel like minded. Yet, that does not hold true for several Muslim scholars who make these contrasts and use expressions as referring to Muhammad as 'the greatest prophet,' or in some other cases, simply overblown.

Now, it is very interesting that the self-proclaimed "Promised Messiah and Mahdi" (Hadhdrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad), highly regarded by many Islamic organizations and institutions, is one of such Muslim scholars who do this. Among the many things he called the prophet Mohammed are: "lord and master, the Chief of the Prophets, the Chief of all living ones," and "our lord and master and our guide, the immaculate Prophet" [Ayenae Kamalat-e-Islam, (Qadian, Riyadh Hind Press 1893); Now printed in Ruhani Khazain (London, 1984), Vol.5, pp. 160-162].

Let me quote you a few of his other appellations to Mohammed, and then you pick out the ones that help you understand that my observations are not false:

"Therefore God, Who knew the secret of his heart, exalted him above all the Prophets and all the first ones and the last ones and bestowed upon him in his life-time all that he desired. He is the fountain-head of every grace and a person who claims any superiority without acknowledging his grace, is not a man but is the progeny of Satan." [Haqiqatul Wahi, (Qadian, Magazine Press 1907); Now published in Ruhani Khazain (London, 1984), Vol. 22, pp. 115-116].

"Had that grand Prophet not appeared in the world then we would have no proof of the truth of lesser Prophets like Jonah, Job, Jesus son of Mary, Malachi, John, Zakaria, etc. Though they were favourites and honoured and were beloved ones of Almighty God, they are under obligation to this Prophet that they were accepted in the world as true Prophets." [Itmamul Hujjah, (Lahore, Gulzar Muhammadi Press, 1311 A.H); Now printed in Ruhani Khazain (London, 1984), Vol. 8, p. 36].

Now notice that I'm not asserting the Qur'an used all these contrasts, but my point is that many Muslim scholars are the ones doing so as a matter of fact, and they are getting away with this because the public is largely unaware of this. And if you find this rather inappropriate, then the Mahdi and all the Islamic organizations and institutions that polarize towards him need to heed your censure to "please drop that belief" or at best "try to correct them about this"! If you have done your own research properly, you'd not be complaining unnecessarily about my claim that Muslims are the ones making the comparisons between the Prophets.

Again, let's suppose for a moment that Muslims are told to forget that Muhammed is the Seal of the Prophets, and instead just focus on those verses that say he was no more than a messenger (Sura 3:144). Do you think that would matter at all to muslims in their faith? Or suppose that the Qur'an never mentioned that Jesus is the Messiah - how would that affect your faith as a Muslim? If the Qur'an uses these descriptions to set them apart, why is it such a problem that we should recognize what those titles are pointing to? If all the prophets are the same, who among the prophets then is a Messiah apart from Jesus? Same applies to even Mohammed - which other prophet is called the Seal of the Prophets in the Qur'an? In Mohammed's case, the Qur'an has distinguished him from others, so I see no problem in taking up this issue. Whether or not you feel one way or the other about it is your personal outlook and does not take away from the substance that the Qur'an has distinguished/compared/contrasted Mohammed from and with other Prophets. Otherwise, let's from henceforth just refer to Mohammed as just another prophet/messenger and ignore the verse that calls him the Seal of the Prophets (Sura 33:40). I, for one, have no problem recognizing that in both the Qur'an and the Bible, only Jesus is called the Messiah - the very Christ.

ajia23:

TayoD, I hope this shows you that you are so wrong about that stement, except if mlks_baby made a mistake when she said this
. . .[- - -] . . .
Now who is doing the comparison?

Lol, leave TayoD alone. We all make mistakes and grow from them - and that's so true about me: my mistakes are many and I've learnt. However, what I said in that gap as quoted in your reply stands as is. If you find them a bit worrisome, then please say why. As far as I know from the Bible, Jesus is not on the same level with any other prophet - and the are very sound reasons that are stated therein for why that is so.

2nd Stage

ajia23:

Still on the queries you raised mlks_baby, the Quran refers to Jesus (ASW) as the Word, yes, and all it means is that Jesus (ASW) was spoken by God to be and He was. In many instances in the narration of the creation in the Quran, God says all I have to say is Be, and it is. And in like manner did He describe the creation of Jesus (ASW). I hope that answers your question.

If it serves your purpose to take that view or interpretation, I'll let it be. However, as I stated earlier, that verse does not corroborate your interpretation; and anyone studying it would realise that no other Prophet in the Qur'an was so designated as a "Word" from Allah. Notice also that all the major English translations of the Qur'an use a capital in the first letter and so treat the "Word" as a divine subject. Again, what do you say about some Muslims who recognize that the "Word" is a proper title of Jesus in the Quran?

Sura 4:171 - "O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him. . ." Twice in the Qur'an, KALIMET ALLAH (The Word of God) is used in direct reference to Jesus Christ (Sura 3:45 and the verse just quoted).

You're not alone in your view; but that does not mean that Muslim scholars, (especially the translators of the Qur'an) deny the fact that Jesus is called the "Word" of God.

ajia23:

GL is definitely right. It is wrong to compare the Prophets. Whether Jesus (ASW) was called the last Adam or the second Adam means nothing, so long as he is related to Adam in the bible, especially as He and Adam (ASW) share some things in common as enumerated by GL.

Good then. Whether Muhammad is called the Seal of the Prophets or not means nothing, so long as he is nothing more than any other prophet in the Qur'an. Consequently, the Shahada means nothing, as long as all the other Prophets in the Qur'an are the "Seal of the Prophets". Of course, by now you realise the fallacy of your statement: it does not hold any substance in light of the statements declared in the Qur'an. GL may feel that it is wrong to compare Prophets - but that is because she seems to have been largely unaware that Muslim scholars are the ones in fact doing so, as I've shown above.

Once again, the Bible shows the statements Jesus made as contrasting John to prophets before his time (Luke 7:28).  I have no problem looking into the Bible and reading that Jesus is "made so much better than the angels" (Heb. 1:4) and also that He is "counted worthy of more glory than Moses" (Heb. 3:3). No one who reads verses like that comes around saying it is wrong to compare the Prophets - Muslims do so from the Qur'an; so what's wrong with Christians believing what the Bible teaches about Jesus in His glory?

ajia23:

That Jesus (ASW) did not sin is a belief held in the bible - not the Quran.

Are you offering that Jesus sinned - according to the Qur'an?

ajia23:

You said Muhammed(SAW) sinned, I am not saying He did not, neither am I confirming your position, but please provide your references.

Where did I state that Muhammed sinned? Good that you cannot deny that he did, so what's the headache about providing you with the references - when you easily could have brought up your own references showing he did not (if you're convinced that in fact he didn't)?

Now it is obvious that Muhammad was not sinless, because Sura 40:55 and 47:19, Allah instructs him to ask for forgiveness for his sins (or 'faults' depending on translation; see also Sura 48:2). It is true that several verses in the Bible declare that Jesus was without sins or faults, but He Himself threw an open challenge to anyone to convict Him otherwise (John 8:46). And since you believe in the Hadith as much as you believe in the Qur'an, it may interest you to know that Muhammad confirmed that he indeed had sinned:

Hadith, Volume 1, Book 12, Number 711:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

     Allah's Apostle used to keep silent between the Takbir and the recitation of Qur'an and that interval of silence
     used to be a short one. I said to the Prophet "May my parents be sacrificed for you! What do you say in the pause
     between Takbir and recitation?" The Prophet said, "I say, 'Allahumma, ba'id baini wa baina khatayaya kama ba'adta
     baina-l-mashriqi wa-l-maghrib. Allahumma, naqqim min khatayaya kama yunaqqa-ththawbu-l-abyadu mina-ddanas.
     Allahumma, ighsil khatayaya bil-ma'i wa-th-thalji wal-barad (O Allah! Set me apart from my sins (faults) as the
     East and West are set apart from each other and clean me from sins as a white garment is cleaned of dirt
     (after thorough washing). O Allah! Wash off my sins with water, snow and hail.)"

There you have it - from Muhammed's lips, thrice confirming the fact he sinned.

3rd Stage

ajia23:

On the issue of ASW, your confusion abput Islam surely becomes more apparent mlks_baby. Even though you got the meaning right, the application is definitely wrong. ASW mean On him be peace, and it refers to the person after which the invocation is made, not Muhammed (SAW). And this does not in anyway translate to a title. Praying for the Prophates of God is not a title like you would say "his eminence". And you think they are unmerited? Hmmm, I believe they deserve it if only for the work they did inspite of all the persecution they faced. This is yet another attestation to the fact that Islam does not discriminate against or compare any Prophet of God.

You worry needlessly. Earlier I stated that "It's an invocation, but of course, it is also used after the mention of any of the prophets in Islamic tradition" - meaning that I did not fastidiously confine it to Muhammed, did I? And when you read my comments in context, I did not infer that SAW/ASW is a "title", but somewhat of "an acronym" and "an invocation", "an _expression" yes? My statement stands as is - "Christians do not use any such expressions for any of the prophets because it may very easily translate into a title that is unmerited", not so?

I never even referred to it as a "prayer", but rather an "invocation." The reason why as a Christian now I don't use them is that the Bible warns me against the sin of necromancy - talking to or praying to/for the dead. I don't believe that I receive my grace from God by invoking/praying for the Prophets of God; for He loves each one personally and relates with us to pray to Him in the name of Jesus Christ.

ajia23:

And about titles, infact the Prophet (SAW) asked his followers to desist from appending any to him so that they do not elevate him beyond what he was-a human. So mlks_baby, please do more research. Aslo, it's good to know you are studying the hadiths. I hope you are not just reading them, but studying the Ulsoolul Hadiths which is the science of the hadiths, otherwise you'll get very confused and jumble up facts.

My dear, whether or not I do research does not take away from the claims I have been posting ever since - and that's why I often play it safe by leaving the necessary references in my claims. No sane man would read the Hadiths and not see what's been going on behind the scenes in the history of Islam. It does not take Ulsoolul to see that.

Meanwhile, I study the Bible more than the Qur'an or Hadiths because now I've come to know more about Jesus that you won't find anywhere else as far as faith and salvation are concerned. It's unfortunate that Islam does not offer strong confidence for salvation as I find in the Bible (I say this respectfully); and the more I study the latter, the more some of my deepest longings and toughest questions are met with satisfying answers.

ajia23:

There is something we b oth definitely agree on, and that is the query system of learning thigs. That way, we come up stronger based on new knowledge acquired. I have learnt a lot more about Islam and christianity since I joined this community, and I am not averse to people questioning what I believe in, but when they make statements that I know to be false and I show them the explanations and they choose to hold on to their beliefs however wrong, I just say to them, practice what you believe. If I did not respond to your query before saying this, it might have been different. I gave an analogy which you preferred to ignore with a caveat that you were going to get back on it. I am still expecting that response.

Now, it's nice to know that at least we can both agree about on something. Your analogy was untenable, and I did not ignore it on any excuses. As far as I saw that not many Muslims corroborate most of your views, I chose not to be tedious to the Forum by launching into unnecessary lectures on them. Second, I stated that I'd exercise patience for nuru to respond to my rejoinder to his (which he has not done); and you seem to be in a hurry. There are issues I wanted to clear from him personally before replying to whatever he would have to say. If you're concerned about certain issues you need to clarify from me, please state them as concisely as you could, and let me see if I could address them.

On the whole, I do hope we can reach a certain understanding that the dialogue/discussion enriches our perspectives about Islam and Christianity; and I thank you for the benefit of calm reasoning which I've enjoyed thus far from you and other contributors in this thread.

Regards.

TayoD, I hope this shows you that you are so wrong about that stement, except if imlks_baby made a mistake when she said this

My conclusion was not based on mlks_baby's prior statement but on the statements and actions of Moslems world over. One on this forum claimed that Mohammed is the greatest Prophet and the best man that ever lived. Your confessions in Islam goes something like this: "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his Prophet" (please correct me if I'm wrong). If Islam does not compare and acknowledge the superiority of Mohammed over other Prophets, then why are Moslems all over the world outraged at the cartoons of Mohammed, yet say nothing at those of Jesus Christ or the Davinci Code? And why do you discard the many books authored by theses dozens of Prophets and hold on with fanatism to the one authored by Mohammed? Doesn't that present a twisted logic to you?

And as for the Shahadah which means witness, Muslims are required to say it to be in the state of belief. The reason they are required to testify to the messengership of Muhammed (SAW) is simple, at that time, He was denied as the Prophet and called a magician by the Quraish, so a Muslim was required to testify to his messengership as a sort of affirmation in believing in Islam completely.

So why are you still saying it today?

If you took time to read my earlier posts, you'll see that I already posted the full version of that convenant Muhamad (SAW) had with the christians before. But, the christians I have been engaged with just managed to conveniently ignore it and instead choose to hold on to their prejudical and aberrant view that Muhamad (SAW) was actually a man given to violence.

This is exactly what I am saying. Mohammed is peaceful only to the extent that it serves his political and religious interest. A man of peace will be peaceful at all times like we see in the case of Jesus. However, someone who proposes peace at one time and declares war on another, only shows he subsribes to whichever one is convenient for him at the time to achieve a particular end. Read the Book of Acts and you'll see that the early church was peaceful at all times even when they were severely persecuted and murdered. Now that is wha it is to be peaceful.

Still on the queries you raised mlks_baby, the Quran refers to Jesus (ASW) as the Word, yes, and all it means is that Jesus (ASW) was spoken by God to be and He was.

This is where both faiths differ. Jesus Christ is not a created Being. He is very God, a very God: John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

@TayoD, a civilised person is not suppose to show hate.

Can you please show me what I said that you have translated to mean hate? I owe no man anything but to love them, so I'm surprised by your accusations.

The qur'an said There is no compulsion in religion

Why don't you say this to the Mullahs in Afghanistan who were ready to kill the convert to Christianity. Or do the entire Afghan population represent the deviation and not the norm?

GL is definitely right. It is wrong to compare the Prophets. Whether Jesus (ASW) was called the last Adam or the second Adam means nothing, so long as he is related to Adam in the bible, especially as He and Adam (ASW) share some things in common as enumerated by GL.

Of course you can never compare people or prophets with each other because God only works with any man on the medium of grace. No one merits God's grace. It is given of His free will and love to mankind. 2Corinthians 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.. The ambit of that arguments ends however, with Jesus. This is God Himself.

Whether Jesus (ASW) was called the last Adam or the second Adam means nothing, so long as he is related to Adam in the bible

You just showed your deep ignorance of the Bible in this statement. If you'd like to know what the difference is, I'll be glad to tell you though it is beyond the scope o this thread. But I must point out to you that there is no idle word in the Bible. Though Islam places little value on the Word of God which is evident by their audacity in claiming that the Word of God (the Bible) has been corrupted. God places more value on His Word than to have it changed and corrupted in that manner. You may have problems with our traditions like Jesus did with those of His days, but never once did He suggest that the Torah was corrupted from the original. He said in Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. So you can see here that every little statement matter. Don't go around saying otherwise.

@TayoD,

Enjoyed reading yours. Thanks also for the reference of 2 Cor. 10:12. T'was great that you pointed out the difference between men trying to compare themselves with each other; and as far as salvation and redemption are concerned, Christ stands as Lord above all others - and the Bible does not hide that fact.

Mlks_baby, TayoD

Well, welll, where do I start from? I must say I got a handful here, but I'll take the time to redress some errors, and where it is mine, I'll humbly acknowledge.

This confession is commonly known as the "Two Testimonies", the second part of which is found in the Qur'an in Sura 48:29; and an even stronger one in Sura 33:40 where Muhammad is called "the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets." If that was not comparing by placing Muhammad above the other prophets, what do you call that?

In this statement you definitely implied that the Quran compares prophets. I accept your retraction if that's what u intended in your rejoinder when you denied saying the Quran did. And I am glad you say scholars. And since you are not muslim, it will be difficult for you to know who a true Islamic scholar is, just the same way I cannot call lavigne a reverend or scholar in christianity. Now leave Mahdi alone, a lot of muslims have denounce he, and others of his ilk.
Invocation, prayer? What are you getting at? Look at the meaning of invocation from an online dictionary.

in·vo·ca·tion (nv-kshn) KEY

NOUN:

The act or an instance of invoking, especially an appeal to a higher power for assistance.
A prayer or other formula used in invoking, as at the opening of a religious service.


A prayer or other formula used in invoking, as at the opening of a religious service

Now I hope you see your error. Invocation also means a prayer, and that's exactly what Muslims do when they say ASW or SAW. They pray for their leaders, now I hope the bible does not ban this?
I'll continue later,

Christianity believes in prayer for our leaders as in 1 Timothy 2:1-8[/b]1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; F2 that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

We however do not believe in prayer for and to the dead. We pray in Jesus' name because He is our High priest before the Father and He lives to make intercession for us. To any man who is dead, they all await judgement as written in [b]Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Mohammed, was just an ordinary man, and he is waiting for his judgement right now. No quantity of prayers to and for him can change anything. Peace upon him or not will be dependent on what he did with Christ Jesus while he was here, because he obviously heard the message of Salvation.

And just to let you know, he may not have confessed Jesus Christ to be Lord while on earth, but it is clear from scriptures that he will now that he is on the other side. Phillipians 2:9-11 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

@TayoD,

You anticipated me with good answers, but let me address some of his concerns.

@ajia23,

While you're at that, again let me thank you for your calm responses. The discussions are very sensitive indeed, but that should not let us deviate from the main course. Here's what I need to point out to you:

ajia23:

In this statement you definitely implied that the Quran compares prophets. I accept your retraction if that's what u intended in your rejoinder when you denied saying the Quran did.

Yes, I did imply that the Qur'an definitely compared prophet Muhammad to others by calling him the Seal of the Prophets. And No, I was in no way retracting that claim - it's there for all to see, and many Muslims are still making this comparison using that very Qur'anic text.

ajia23:

And I am glad you say scholars. And since you are not muslim, it will be difficult for you to know who a true Islamic scholar is, just the same way I cannot call lavigne a reverend or scholar in christianity. Now leave Mahdi alone, a lot of muslims have denounce he, and others of his ilk.

Besides the Madhi, there are other Muslims who make this comparison today. He's not the only who has used flowery language in describing Muhammad, so my claim still stands as is: Muslims are the ones making the comparisons using the Qur'an, and the Bible is not timid to show that Jesus stands above all others in matters of salvation and redemption.

ajia23:

Invocation, prayer? What are you getting at? Look at the meaning of invocation from an online dictionary.

Let me concede for your own sake that I was wrong in the prayer-invocation issue. However, while you're not the only Muslim saying that the ASW/SAW is a prayer, not all Muslims are agreed that it is such, in the context in which you used it earlier (your quote: "Praying for the Prophates [Prophets] of God". In the broad context in which you used it, that is what the Bible forbids, and I stated earlier that Christians are warned against the sin of necromancy.

Think about it: why pray for dead people - what do they need that such invocations should be "prayed" upon them after they've departed this life? There's nothing that can change their circumstances, and everyman will stand before God in that day to receive for what he/she has done. No prayer or invocation can change their destinies. The Bible teaches us to pray for our leaders who are alive (as TayoD has shown in quoting 1 Timothy 2:1-, but Christians do not pray for dead people.

Hoping to read from you soon. Cheers.

Please it should be noted that muslim's view of Islam is not like christian's view of christianity.
In Islam, Prophet Muhammad is considered a leader and a prophet and not "God" unlike christians view of Jesus.
The prophet himself has serveral times reminded his followers that he is human and does make mistakes. Muslims are expected to learn from the Prophet's actions (including how to repent when you have sinned.)

I personally think that Islam is more of a realistic religion. @TayoD do you think a human is designed to be a man of peace at all times ?. I do not believe in unconditional peace, I think it's impractical.

But in christianity this may be a rule, to be unconditionally peacefull. Which no christian is able to uphold. You see where there must be room for forgiveness when you sinned.

In Islam you don't give the other cheek, instead you have the right to slap back but forgiving is more honourable.
I think you will agree with me that this rule is more logical and will be more accepted by the world if a poll will be carried out.

Going back to the issue of differences or similarities between Islam and Christianity, the King Negus when he first heard of Islam from Muslims he later offered protection said that :
If there is any difference between your religion and our religion, then it is the cross

The word cross here refers to the death and rise of Jesus. So that's the fundamental difference.

Why don't you say this to the Mullahs in Afghanistan who were ready to kill the convert to Christianity. Or do the entire Afghan population represent the deviation and not the norm?

The Taliban deviated from the norms not the Afghans.

Christians did the same thing to their Muslim slaves in America. Muslims were forced to convert to christianity and change names. I remember "Kunta Kinte" was forced to become "Toby".

But I Know that is not the teachings of christianity, it is only what christians do. I expect you to know the difference between the teachings of Islam and what Muslims do.

Not all muslims are good muslims just like not all christians are good christians.

Please I expect a comment about the charter of privilege I qouted which prophet Muhammad made with christians.

IG,
I have responded to the charter that you said Mohammed made, though there was no reference in it that it was actually made by Mohammed.
The charter only shows that he was a master politician as well as a religious leader. He makes proclamation for peace when it suits his interest and he declares an all-out war when that will be better for him. To me, he appears like a man without a particuar principle. Does he believe in peace or war? In very man's God-given right to believe or disbelieve in God? Or must all submit to Allah by willful submission or by the sword if necessary? This is not the hallmark of as man of peace.

A present-day example of a man of peace is Rev. Martin Luther King. He was effecive with his peaceful, non-violent protest that led to the civil right movement in America. This shows that Mohammed's mind-set of violence as an option is completely faulty and untennable. I hope you get my point now.