Germany's Roman Catholics are to be denied the right to Holy Communion or religious burial if they stop paying a special church tax.

A German bishops' decree which has just come into force says anyone failing to pay the tax - an extra 8% of their income tax bill - will no longer be considered a Catholic.

The bishops have been alarmed by the number of Catholics leaving the Church.

They say such a step should be seen as a serious act against the community.

All Germans who are officially registered as Catholics, Protestants or Jews pay a religious tax of 8-9% on their annual income tax bill. The levy was introduced in the 19th Century in compensation for the nationalisation of religious property.

"If your tax bill is for 10,000 euros, then 800 euros will go on top of that and your total tax combined will be 10,800 euros," Munich tax accountant Thomas Zitzelsberger told the BBC news website.

Catholics make up around 30% of Germany's population but the number of congregants leaving the church swelled to 181,000 in 2010, with the increase blamed on revelations of sexual abuse by German priests.

Alarmed by their declining congregations, the bishops were also pushed into action by a case involving a retired professor of church law, Hartmut Zapp, who announced in 2007 that he would no longer pay the tax but intended to remain within the Catholic faith.

The Freiburg University academic said he wanted to continue praying and receiving Holy Communion and a lengthy legal case between Prof Zapp and the church will reach the Leipzig Federal Administrative Court on Wednesday.

Tax on Germany's Christians

25 million Catholics

Tax worth 5bn euros (2010)

24 million Protestants

"This decree makes clear that one cannot partly leave the Church," Germany's bishops' conference said last week, in a decision endorsed by the Vatican.

Tax worth 4.3bn euros

German population 82 million

'Wrong signal'

Unless they pay the religious tax, Catholics will no longer be allowed receive sacraments, except before death, or work in the church and its schools or hospitals.

Without a "sign of repentance before death, a religious burial can be refused," the decree states. Opting out of the tax would also bar people from acting as godparents to Catholic children.

"This decree at this moment of time is really the wrong signal by the German bishops who know that the Catholic church is in a deep crisis," Christian Weisner from the grassroots Catholic campaign group We are Church told the BBC.

But a priest from Mannheim in south-western Germany, Father Lukas Glocker, said the tax was used to do essential good works.

"With kindergarten, with homes for elderly or unemployed, we've got really good things so I know we need the tax to help the German country to do good things."

While the decree severely limits active participation in the German Catholic Church, it does hold out some hope for anyone considering a return to the fold.

Until now, any German Catholic who stopped payment faced eventual excommunication. Although the measures laid out in the decree are similar to excommunication from the church, German observers say the word is carefully avoided in the decree.

Source : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19699581

Wow !!

Her daughters ( protestants ) are only doing what 'Mummy' does and 'Mummy' sure knows how to reap the cash .

These chaps have so much in common , they don't just get it .


- Tithe
- Trinity

What next !!

frosbel: Wow !!

Her daughters ( protestants ) are only doing what 'Mummy' does and 'Mummy' sure knows how to reap the cash .

These chaps have so much in common , they don't just get it .


- Tithe
- Trinity

What next !!

Frosbel, do you worship allah or sango? cos if you are christian there's no way you can claim not to belong to either the 'mummy' or 'daughter' category.

Zikkyy:

Frosbel, do you worship allah or sango? cos if you are christian there's no way you can claim not to belong to either the 'mummy' or 'daughter' category.

I am a Christian with no strings attached, no denomination.

frosbel:

I am a Christian with no strings attached, no denomination.

There is no middle ground, it's either you are catholic or protesting . You don't need strings to know you belong to the daughter or grand daughter category abi you be orphan maybe you want to claim the virgin birth as well

But being an ex-catholic, i think you belong to the 'prodigal son' category

You can see there's no way you can escape being categorized

Zikkyy:

There is no middle ground, it's either you are catholic or protesting . You don't need strings to know you belong to the daughter or grand daughter category abi you be orphan maybe you want to claim the virgin birth as well

But being an ex-catholic, i think you belong to the 'prodigal son' category

You can see there's no way you can escape being categorized

You are wrong, there are at least five major christian denominations that pre date the catholic church and did not spin off(protest) from them; namely greek orthodox church, ethopian church, egyptian coptic church, syrian orthodox church and the armenian church. These churches never protested from
the catholic church.

Basically speaking, not all christian churches broke away from the catholic church.

@ pastor kun

Compulsory tithing is not a teaching og the catholic church.I don't know where the german bishops based their acts but it is not the doctrine of the catholic church.

The churches you mentioned actually broke away from the catholic church in the fifth and twelvth centuries.

The churches of egypt,armenia and ethiopia broke away from the catholic church at the council of chalcedon in 451 CE.There are to day known as the oriental orthodox churches or the non-chalcedonians.The greek,syrian and other eastern churches broke away from the catholic church in 1054CE during the east-west schism also known as the great schism.There are today known as the eastern orthodox churches

@chukwudi
I would have to verify your assertions up there but information I have at my dispposal states that the roman catholic church is just one of six early christian denomination and the rcc domination was based on the backing of the roman empire. Even going back to the epistles and acts of the apostles, you would realise that several churches were established inDependent of the catholic church.

The entire church was one in mind and body in the early church.By the second century various gnostic sects had arisen with strange doctrines most notably where the followers of marcion and valentinus.St ireneaus actually mentions more sects in his work written in 185CE "against heresies".By this time the name catholic church had come to be used to represent those who had remained faithful to the orthodox faith.

These gnostic sects were the major divisions witnessed in the late fist and second centuries although most of them fizzled out later.

By the third century after the brutal diocletan persecution,the donatist schism came about and then the arian and nestorian controversy of the fourth and fifth centuries.

While all these earlier schisms especially that of arianism could not be ignored the first major schism in the catholic church occured in 451CE @ the council of chalcedon.There the churches of egypt,ethiopia and armenia broke away from the catholic church to become independent.

The biggest schism in the catholic church finally occured in 1054CE when the pope and the bishop of constantinopole mutually excommunicated themselves begining the seperation between the churches in eastern europe and the catholic church.it is today known as the east-west schism

Pastor Kun:

You are wrong, there are at least five major christian denominations that pre date the catholic church and did not spin off(protest) from them; namely greek orthodox church, ethopian church, egyptian coptic church, syrian orthodox church and the armenian church. These churches never protested from
the catholic church.

Basically speaking, not all christian churches broke away from the catholic church.

they did, that is what the east west divide was about. The east changed her name to "orthodox church" and d west maintain the name catholic

chukwudi44: The entire church was one in mind and body in the early church.By the second century various gnostic sects had arisen with strange doctrines most notably where the followers of marcion and valentinus.St ireneaus actually mentions more sects in his work written in 185CE "against heresies".By this time the name catholic church had come to be used to represent those who had remained faithful to the orthodox faith.

These gnostic sects were the major divisions witnessed in the late fist and second centuries although most of them fizzled out later.

By the third century after the brutal diocletan persecution,the donatist schism came about and then the arian and nestorian controversy of the fourth and fifth centuries.

While all these earlier schisms especially that of arianism could not be ignored the first major schism in the catholic church occured in 451CE @ the council of chalcedon.There the churches of egypt,ethiopia and armenia broke away from the catholic church to become independent.

The biggest schism in the catholic church finally occured in 1054CE when the pope and the bishop of constantinopole mutually excommunicated themselves begining the seperation between the churches in eastern europe and the catholic church.it is today known as the east-west schism

just a little update the church of egypt has come back to communion rome, i think it is called 'the coptic catholic church' or something like that. A little correction too, in the 1054 schism the pope and patriarch didnt mutually excommunicate themselves, the pope had died and d conclave hadnt decided a new pope, a cardinal excommunicated the patriarch, unknown to him that the pope was dead, the patriarch immediately excommunicated the cardinal even though he knew that d see of constantinople didnt have any power over those in d roman see. The pope wasnt involved.

chukwudi44: @ pastor kun

Compulsory tithing is not a teaching og the catholic church.I don't know where the german bishops based their acts but it is not the doctrine of the catholic church.

i'm as surprised as well, unless the secular media is playing games. Bishops have power to excommunicate, but tithing is totally optional, one certainly cant be excommunicated on a matter concerning totally optional practices. I have to check this out.

Pastor Kun:

Germany's Roman Catholics are to be denied the right to Holy Communion or religious burial if they stop paying a special church tax.

A German bishops' decree which has just come into force says anyone failing to pay the tax - an extra 8% of their income tax bill - will no longer be considered a Catholic.

The bishops have been alarmed by the number of Catholics leaving the Church.

They say such a step should be seen as a serious act against the community.

All Germans who are officially registered as Catholics, Protestants or Jews pay a religious tax of 8-9% on their annual income tax bill. The levy was introduced in the 19th Century in compensation for the nationalisation of religious property.

"If your tax bill is for 10,000 euros, then 800 euros will go on top of that and your total tax combined will be 10,800 euros," Munich tax accountant Thomas Zitzelsberger told the BBC news website.

Catholics make up around 30% of Germany's population but the number of congregants leaving the church swelled to 181,000 in 2010, with the increase blamed on revelations of sexual abuse by German priests.

Alarmed by their declining congregations, the bishops were also pushed into action by a case involving a retired professor of church law, Hartmut Zapp, who announced in 2007 that he would no longer pay the tax but intended to remain within the Catholic faith.

The Freiburg University academic said he wanted to continue praying and receiving Holy Communion and a lengthy legal case between Prof Zapp and the church will reach the Leipzig Federal Administrative Court on Wednesday.

Tax on Germany's Christians

25 million Catholics

Tax worth 5bn euros (2010)

24 million Protestants

"This decree makes clear that one cannot partly leave the Church," Germany's bishops' conference said last week, in a decision endorsed by the Vatican.

Tax worth 4.3bn euros

German population 82 million

'Wrong signal'

Unless they pay the religious tax, Catholics will no longer be allowed receive sacraments, except before death, or work in the church and its schools or hospitals.

Without a "sign of repentance before death, a religious burial can be refused," the decree states. Opting out of the tax would also bar people from acting as godparents to Catholic children.

"This decree at this moment of time is really the wrong signal by the German bishops who know that the Catholic church is in a deep crisis," Christian Weisner from the grassroots Catholic campaign group We are Church told the BBC.

But a priest from Mannheim in south-western Germany, Father Lukas Glocker, said the tax was used to do essential good works.

"With kindergarten, with homes for elderly or unemployed, we've got really good things so I know we need the tax to help the German country to do good things."

While the decree severely limits active participation in the German Catholic Church, it does hold out some hope for anyone considering a return to the fold.

Until now, any German Catholic who stopped payment faced eventual excommunication. Although the measures laid out in the decree are similar to excommunication from the church, German observers say the word is carefully avoided in the decree.

Source : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19699581

the media has started to play games. The report didnt give the full picture.

Ubenedictus: the media has started to play games. The report didnt give the full picture.

Why don't you give us the full picture?

Pastor Kun:

Why don't you give us the full picture?

in the US the government pays tax to the church, in germany, it is a bit different, the civil law gives all registered church the right to tax her members (instead of the government paying tax) the church may enforce the tax by herself or thru the governments tax agency (ofcouse u have to pay the agency), most churches chose the latter option, in essence it is almost imposible to evade the tax because it is part of law and it is government enforced. There is one way though of evading the tax, by freedom of religion, u will be exempted from the tax if u leave the church and legally reject your faith. Many people have decided to evade the tax by actually "rejecting the church", that is actually a schismatic act. That alone would invite all the censures. The matter was a little heated, to publicly and legally reject the chuch excludes u from holy communion, been a sponsor for anybody, if u continue till the end it exclude u from a catholic christian burial because a public rejection simply means "im not a catholic and dont treat me like one". In essence the document released by the bishop was simply confirming something that was already there, to reject the church was the reject all the right a catholic enjoyed. But the report of "excommunication" is bogus, the bishop didnt even use the word, ofcourse they wanted to because canon law prescribes medicinal excommunication for public rejection but the vatican prevented them form excommunicating people. The bishops arent excommunicating people based on tax, the bishop are confirming the censures incured for a public rejection of the church. The same thing applies in nigeria, when u leave the church, u cant be a sponsor in a marriage or baptism, u cant recieve any of the sacrament and u cant have a catholic burial because u have declared u arent a catholic. If u wish to come back, u need to make a profession of faith etc. Etc. The bbc report simply picked and chose what to report and how to report it. No bishop excommunicated anybody even though public rejection was excommunicable.

Pastor Kun:

You are wrong, there are at least five major christian denominations that pre date the catholic church and did not spin off(protest) from them; namely greek orthodox church, ethopian church, egyptian coptic church, syrian orthodox church and the armenian church. These churches never protested from
the catholic church.

Basically speaking, not all christian churches broke away from the catholic church.

The churches listed above were originally part of one catholic church (i think ). it's either they still catholic or they are protesting even if you claim you are not protesting, i don't see how frosbel can escape the categorization. Beig an ex-catholic, i believe he left in protest That makes him a protestant.

Zikkyy:

The churches listed above were originally part of one catholic church(i think ). it's either they still catholic or they are protesting even if you claim you are not protesting, i don't see how frosbel can escape the categorization. Beig an ex-catholic, i believe he left in protest That makes him a protestant.

I agree with the bolded although it always depends on how one is using the expression "catholic church" and whether one is using it properly.

Actually, I had wanted to explore some of these issues and also that the use of the expression 'Roman Catholic Church' only started in about the 16th century (yep, that recent relatively speaking) in that thread on the RCC and the canon of the 'Bible' link provided below for reference.

https://www.nairaland.com/1039359/canon-bible-roman-catholic-church

Enigma:

I agree with the bolded although it always depends on how one is using the expression "catholic church" and whether one is using it properly.

Actually, I had wanted to explore some of these issues and also that the use of the expression 'Roman Catholic Church' only started in about the 16th century (yep, that recent relatively speaking) in that thread on the RCC and the canon of the 'Bible' link provided below for reference.

https://www.nairaland.com/1039359/canon-bible-roman-catholic-church

Please don't derail this thread if you want us to discuss this we can continue from the last thread which you shamelessly abandoned after your own trick was used against you.

Enigma:

I agree with the bolded although it always depends on how one is using the expression "catholic church" and whether one is using it properly.

Are you saying you don't agree with the un-bolded part? the part that has to do with frosbel being a protestant

Enigma:

Actually, I had wanted to explore some of these issues and also that the use of the expression 'Roman Catholic Church' only started in about the 16th century (yep, that recent relatively speaking) in that thread on the RCC and the canon of the 'Bible' link provided below for reference.

https://www.nairaland.com/1039359/canon-bible-roman-catholic-church

There is no way you are dragging me to that thread i reject it IJN

on second thought maybe i might have something to say just as long as it has nothing to do with who canonized the bible. i am quite sure that was done by my great great ...... great grandfather

Zikkyy:

There is no middle ground, it's either you are catholic or protesting . You don't need strings to know you belong to the daughter or grand daughter category abi you be orphan maybe you want to claim the virgin birth as well

But being an ex-catholic, i think you belong to the 'prodigal son' category

You can see there's no way you can escape being categorized

There is middle ground. You can be an Orthodox Xtian. I believe they are more loose with tithing but believe in the Trinity too.

Orthodox christianity is also a breakway faction of catholicism.Like catholicism compulsory tithing is also not a doctrine.

chukwudi44: Orthodox christianity is also a breakway faction of catholicism.Like catholicism compulsory tithing is also not a doctrine.

No they are not. Orthodox and Catholicism were the two main branches of Xtianity. They were never under the Catholics (except for shortly after the 4th crusade). They have distinct differences when compared with the Catholics.

Zikkyy:

Are you saying you don't agree with the un-bolded part? the part that has to do with frosbel being a protestant



There is no way you are dragging me to that thread i reject it IJN

on second thought maybe i might have something to say just as long as it has nothing to do with who canonized the bible. i am quite sure that was done by my great great ...... great grandfather

The whole of this post had me genuinely laughing.

My dear friend Frosbel is more than just a protestant . . . .

Enigma:



The whole of this post had me genuinely laughing.

My dear friend Frosbel is more than just a protestant . . . .

Mate , better laugh and do it real good.

Laughter is good medicine

Just a question, do i need to belong to any one of the about 40,000 denominations that exist to be called a Christian ?

frosbel:

Mate , better laugh and do it real good.

Laughter is good medicine

Just a question, do i need to belong to any one of the about [b]40,000 denominations that exist to be called a Christian ?[/b]

No. I think as long as you believe in Christ that should be good enough.

chukwudi44:

Please don't derail this thread if you want us to discuss this we can continue from the last thread which you shamelessly abandoned after your own trick was used against you.

Take it easy na. which one you dey?

frosbel:

Just a question, do i need to belong to any one of the about 40,000 denominations that exist to be called a Christian ?

No. and you don't need it to belong to any denomination to be protestant

Atheist:-D:


No they are not. Orthodox and Catholicism were the two main branches of Xtianity. They were never under the Catholics (except for shortly after the 4th crusade). They have distinct differences when compared with the Catholics.

Nope pal orthodox split from catholicism only during the east-west schism of 1054 CE.

Atheist:-D:


There is middle ground. You can be an Orthodox Xtian. I believe they are more loose with tithing but believe in the Trinity too.

... are you saying orthodox churches are not catholic?

Atheist:-D:


Orthodox and Catholicism were the two main branches of Xtianity. They were never under the Catholics (except for shortly after the 4th crusade).

I can't say they were ever under catholic, but they were part of one catholic church before the name change. It's either they are still catholic or they are protesting. I think their not wanting to be identified with the word 'catholic' makes them protestant.

Orthodox xtianity if more than 99 percent similar to catholicism.They share similar beleifs and practices differing only in papacy,filoque clause and a few other areas.

The two groups were seperated in 1054CE

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East–West_Schism

Orthodox xtianity is more than 99 percent similar to catholicism.They share similar beleifs and practices differing only in papacy,filoque clause and a few other areas.

The two groups were seperated in 1054CE

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East–West_Schism

@frosbel

I don't think you a protestant rather you are a protester

chukwudi44: Orthodox xtianity is more than 99 percent similar to catholicism.They share similar beleifs and practices differing only in papacy,filoque clause and a few other areas.

The two groups were seperated in 1054CE

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/East–West_Schism

@frosbel

I don't think you a protestant rather you are a protester

I will sooner be a protester than a Pagan