That is why He is the beginning.

gbrookes02: gbrookes02: Jesus Christ is The Yahweh God Almighty of the Old Testatment.

John 12:41 (English Standard Version (©2001)) "Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him."


Barnes' Notes on the Bible
When he saw his glory - Isaiah 6:1-10. Isaiah saw the Lord (in Hebrew, יהוה Yahweh) sitting on a throne and surrounded with the seraphim. This is perhaps the only instance in the Bible in which Yahweh is said to have been seen by man, and for this the Jews affirm that Isaiah was put to death. God had said Exodus 33:20, "No man shall see me and live;" and as Isaiah affirmed that he had seen Yahweh, the Jews, for that and other reasons, put him to death by sawing him asunder. See Introduction to Isaiah, Section 2. In the prophecy Isaiah is said expressly to have seen Yahweh John 12:1; and in John 12:5, "Mine eyes have seen the King Yahweh of hosts." By his glory is meant the manifestation of him - the Shechinah, or visible cloud that was a representation of God, and that rested over the mercy-seat. This was regarded as equivalent to seeing God, and John here expressly applies this to the Lord Jesus Christ; for he is nor affirming that the people did not believe in God, but is assigning the reason why they believed not on Jesus Christ as the Messiah. The whole discourse has respect to the Lord Jesus, and the natural construction of the passage requires us to refer it to him. John affirms that it was the glory of the Messiah that Isaiah saw, and yet Isaiah affirms that it was Yahweh; and from this the inference is irresistible that John regarded Jesus as the Yahweh whom Isaiah saw. The name Yahweh is never, in the Scriptures, applied to a man, or an angel, or to any creature. It is the unique, incommunicable name of God. So great was the reverence of the Jews for that name that they would not even pronounce it. This passage is therefore conclusive proof that Christ is equal with the Father.

Spake of him - Of the Messiah. The connection requires this interpretation.

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
When he saw his glory - Isaiah 6:1, etc. I saw Jehovah, said the prophet, sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. Above it stood the seraphim; and one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is Jehovah, God of hosts; the whole earth shall be full of his glory! It appears evident, from this passage, that the glory which the prophet saw was the glory of Jehovah: John, therefore, saying here that it was the glory of Jesus, shows that he considered Jesus to be Jehovah. See Bishop Pearce. Two MSS. and a few versions have Θεου, and του Θεου αὑτου, the glory of God, or of his God.

John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
These things said Esaias,.... Concerning the blinding and hardening of the Jews:

when he saw his glory, and spake of him; when he saw, in a visionary way, the glory of the Messiah in the temple, and the angels covering their faces with their wings at the sight of him; and when he spake of him as the King, the Lord of hosts, whom he had seen, Isaiah 6:1, from whence it is clear that he had respect to the Jews in the times of the Messiah. The prophet says in Isaiah 6:1 that he "saw the Lord": the Targumist renders it, "I saw", , "the glory of Jehovah"; and in Isaiah 6:5 he says, "mine eyes have seen the King", Jehovah, Zebaot, the Lord of hosts; which the Chaldee paraphrase renders, "mine eyes have seen", , "the glory" of the Shekinah, the King of the world, the Lord of hosts. Agreeably to which our Lord says here, that he saw his glory, the glory of his majesty, the glory of his divine nature, the train of his divine perfections, filling the temple of the human nature; and he spoke of him as the true Jehovah, the Lord of hosts; and which therefore is a very clear and strong proof of the proper divinity of Christ. And it may be observed from hence, that such persons who have a true, spiritual, and saving sight of Christ, of the glory of his person, and the fulness of his grace, cannot but be speaking of him to others, either in private, or in public, as Isaiah here did, and as the church in Sol 5:10; and as the apostles of Christ, John 1:1; and indeed, should they hold their peace, the stones would cry out; such must, and will speak of his glory in his temple, Psalm 29:9.

Vincent's Word Studies
When (ὅτε)

The best texts read ὅτι, because.

His glory

In the vision in the temple, Isaiah 6:1, Isaiah 6:3, Isaiah 6:5.

Of Him

Christ.

Geneva Study Bible
These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Wesley's Notes
12:41 When he saw his glory - Christ's, Isa 6:1, and c. And it is there expressly said to be the glory of the Lord, Jehovah, the Supreme God.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
41. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him-a key of immense importance to the opening of Isaiah's vision (Isa 6:1-13), and all similar Old Testament representations. "The Son is the King Jehovah who rules in the Old Testament and appears to the elect, as in the New Testament THE Spirit, the invisible Minister of the Son, is the Director of the Church and the Revealer in the sanctuary of the heart" [Olshausen].

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
12:37-43 Observe the method of conversion implied here. Sinners are brought to see the reality of Divine things, and to have some knowledge of them. To be converted, and truly turned from sin to Christ, as their Happiness and Portion. God will heal them, will justify and sanctify them; will pardon their sins, which are as bleeding wounds, and mortify their corruptions, which are as lurking diseases. See the power of the world in smothering convictions, from regard to the applause or censure of men. Love of the praise of men, as a by-end in that which is good, will make a man a hypocrite when religion is in fashion, and credit is to be got by it; and love of the praise of men, as a base principle in that which is evil, will make a man an apostate, when religion is in disgrace, and credit is to be lost for it.

http://bible.cc/john/12-41.htm

The bible say Yahweh will not share His glory with another yet John say Jesus' glory was Yahweh's glory in Isaiah, so if Yahweh will not share His glory with another, and yet Jesus' glory is Yahweh's glory in Isaiah according to John, then explain how Jesus is not Yahweh in the Old Testament?

The Yahweh that Isaiah saw in the Old Testament is The Jesus Christ of the New Testament according to the apostle John, see "Isaiah saw Jesus as Yahweh (Compare John 12:37-41 with Isaiah 6:1-10)" at:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zmE43MQMkQ



Who Did Isaiah See?

We’re going to resume our study tonight of the Trinity and going through the gospel of John. I’m not going to cover the Triumphant Entry since we’ve already done that. I’d like us instead go to another part of John 12. Greeks have come to see Jesus. When that happens, Jesus says that the time has arrived and John gives a commentary on all that happens. I recommend you read the relevant portions prior to our text starting in verse 37.

37Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
”Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? 39For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
40“He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them. 41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

Jesus has been doing miraculous signs for the people and now, even the voice of God has spoken, and the people refuse to believe. What is going on exactly? John’s commentary on what has happened comes straight out of Isaiah. Let’s look at the first passage.

1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

This passage should sound familiar. It’s Isaiah 53 which is the noted servant song that speaks about Christ and how he would be rejected as Messiah. The second passage is also a passage of rejection, but it is one that comes much earlier. This comes from Isaiah 6. It’s in verse 10, but I will quote the first five verses.

1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3 And they were calling to one another:
“Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty;
the whole earth is full of his glory.” 4 At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.

5 ”Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.”

Can there be any doubt that Isaiah here saw YHWH? Verse 5 should dispel any hesitancy to say that. Notice how YHWH is described as high and exalted. Is that language used elsewhere in Isaiah. YES!

13 See, my servant will act wisely
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.

Where is this? Chapter 52. In fact, it’s the prelude to the servant song.

The term used to describe YHWH is used to describe Christ but notice how John’s description continues. Let’s look at why he says Isaiah said these things in John 12:41.

41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.

What glory did Isaiah see? He saw the glory of YHWH. That is who anyone would think of when he asked who Isaiah saw and that’s what John wishes us to see. John 12:41 is pointing back to say that the one on the throne is Jesus Christ.

Which also makes Isaiah 6 fit in with John 1:18 as no one has seen God as he is, that is, the Father, but the Son has revealed him.

http://deeperwaters./2009/05/28/who-did-isaiah-see/

The bible say Yahweh will not share His glory with another yet John say Jesus' glory was Yahweh's glory in Isaiah, so if Yahweh will not share His glory with another, and yet Jesus' glory is Yahweh's glory in Isaiah according to John, then explain how Jesus is not Yahweh in the Old Testament?

Trinity Proof Texts: Isaiah 6



Isaiah 6:1: In the year of King Uzziah's death, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.

Isaiah 6:8-9 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!" And He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.'





I. Jesus is Yahweh:

A. Isaiah saw Jesus Christ (Yahweh)

"In the year of King Uzziah's death I saw Yahweh sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. " Isaiah 6:1
"For my eyes have seen the King, Yahwah of hosts." Isaiah 6:5
"Then I heard the voice of Yahweh, saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?" Then I said, "Here am I. Send me!" " Isaiah 6:8
"These things Isaiah said because he (Isaiah) saw His (Christ's) glory, and he spoke of Him (Christ)." John 12:41
B. The context of John 12:41:
"These things Isaiah said because he saw His (Christ's) glory, and he spoke of Him (Christ)." John 12:41

The section focuses on Christ being glorified, with the Glory he had before creation (Jn 17:5) and how men were to believe in Jesus as the Saviour of the world.
John quotes from Isaiah several times about how men could not believe in Jesus.
The "Him" in John 12:41 can only be Jesus:
when Jesus was glorified v16
the Son of Man to be glorified v23
Father, glorify Your name (by glorifying Jesus) v28
they were not believing in Christ v37
Lord, who has believed our report v38
to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed v38
these things Isaiah said because he saw His (Christ's) glory, and he spoke of Him (Christ) v41
many even of the rulers believed in Him v42
Jesus cried out and said, He who believes in Me v44
He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me v45
A simple reading of the context of John 12 makes it clear that John is saying that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus Christ himself in Isaiah 6. This proves Jesus is Yahweh.
C. Full context of John 12:41 proves Isaiah saw Jesus' glory.

"These things His disciples did not understand at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of Him, and that they had done these things to Him. " John 12:16
"And Jesus answered them, saying, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. " John 12:23
""Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, 'Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour. "Father, glorify Your name." Then a voice came out of heaven: "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again." " John 12:27-28
"But though He (Christ) had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him (Christ). This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, "He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them." THESE THINGS ISAIAH SAID BECAUSE HE SAW HIS (CHRIST'S) GLORY, AND HE SPOKE OF HIM (CHRIST). Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him (Christ), but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him (Christ), for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God. And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. "He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. " John 12:37-45
II. Plural pronouns used of God proving the trinity:

A. Three plural pronouns, (We, Us, Our) used 6 different times in four different passages. Remember the word God (elohim) is also plural every time it is used in the Old Testament. Gen 11:7 also includes a plural verb (confuse) which even further, through grammer reinforces the plural "elohim" and the plural pronoun US.

"Our" Gen 1:26
"Us" Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8
"We" Isa 6:8
B. These are the four passages where God speaks for Himself and uses plural pronouns:

"Then God [plural elohim] said, "Let Us [plural pronoun] make man in Our [plural pronoun] image, according to Our [plural pronoun] likeness" Genesis 1:26
"Then Yahweh God [plural elohim] said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us [plural pronoun], knowing good and evil" Genesis 3:22
"Come, let Us [plural pronoun] go down and there confuse [plural form of balal] their language, so that they will not understand one another's speech." Genesis 11:7
"Then I heard the voice of the Lord [plural elohim], saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us [plural pronoun]?"" Isaiah 6:8

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-texts-isaiah6.htm



Biblical Basis for Trinity

THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD
Deuteronomy 6:4
Isaiah 43:10
Isaiah 44:6-8
OLD TESTAMENT EVIDENCES OF THE TRINITY
Genesis 1:1,26,27
Isaiah 6:1-10
Isaiah 48:12-16
Zechariah 2:10-11
(Points I & lll are not contested by those who deny the Trinity, therefore little space is given them here.)

THE FATHER IS GOD
I Peter 1:17
John 5:17-23
THE SON IS GOD
He Is Called God Explicitly
Matthew 1:23, "Emmanuel-God with us."
John 1:1, "The Word was God." (Note: There is no scholarly support for the NWT rendering it "a god." For a thorough treatment of this issue request our study on John 1:1)
John 5:17-23, The Son is "equal" to his Father
John 8:53-59, Jesus is the "I AM" of Exodus 3:1-15
John 10:28-33, Jesus and the Father are equal
John 20:28 "The Lord of me and THE GOD of me."
Romans 9:5, Christ is God over all
Colossians 2:9, All the fullness of deity
Titus 2:13, "our Great God and Saviour."
Hebrews 1:8, "Thy throne O God."
I John 5:20, "The true God."
He Is Described In Terms Reserved Only For God
Creator of ALL Things
John 1:3
Ephesians 3:9
Colossians 1:16,17
Hebrews 2:10
Revelation 3:14
The Almighty
Revelation 1:8 with 21:5-7; and 22:12,13,16,20
The First and Last
Revelation 1:17; 2:8; 22:13 (Compare Isaiah 44:6)
The Exact Representation of The Father
Hebrews 1:3
John 12:45 and 14:6-11
Isaiah 46:9
He Is Worshipped As God. (See Luke 4:
Revelation 5:11-13 (Compare Revelation 4:9-11)
Hebrews 1:6
O.T./N.T. Cross-Reference Proves Jesus Is God
Isaiah 40:3 with John 1:23 & 3:28
Isaiah 45:23 with Philippians 2:10,11 and Romans 14:11
Isaiah 44:24 with John 1:3
Isaiah 6:1-5 with John 12:37-41
Isaiah 8:13,14 with I Peter 2:7,8
Isaiah 42:8 with John 17:5
Isaiah 60:19 with Luke 2:30-32
Psalms 102:24-27 with Hebrews 1:10-12
Psalms 45:6,7 with Hebrews 1:8,9
Psalms 23:1 with Isaiah 40:10,11 and John 10,11
I Kings 8:39 with Revelation 2:23
Joel 2:32 with Romans 10:9-13
Exodus 3:14 with John 8:58,59
Malachi 3:1 with Matthew 11:10
Exodus 19:18-21 with Hebrews 12:18-26
Zechariah 12:10 & 13:6,7 with John 19:34-37
Zechariah 14:4,5 with Matthew 24:29-31; Matthew 25:31; Jude 14,15; II Thessalonians 1:7-10; Revelation 19:11-21
Jesus Is God Made Flesh
Philippians 2:5-8: Jesus "being in the form of God" (i.e., deity), did not consider it something to cling to, but emptied himself of his divine glory and perogatives, NOT his divine nature, and took UPON his divine form "the form of a servant" (i.e., humanity), in order to suffer death.
John 1:1,14: "In the beginning was (eternally) the Word and the Word was with God (i.e., the Father and Holy Spirit), and the Word was God (deity)." "And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us."
Hebrews 1:3 and 2:9-18: Jesus is the "EXACT REPRESENTATION of His (God's) VERY BEING" (NWT). No creature could possibly do that! But, Jesus set aside his infinite glory to become one of us so that he could be to us an, example in faith, the perfect sacrifice, our High Priest, Comforter, and Saviour.
Who Is The "Angel Of Jehovah?"
Genesis 16:7-13
Genesis 18:1,13,17,20-22,26,33; 19:24
Genesis 22:11-18
Genesis 31:11-13
Genesis 32:24-30 (compare Hosea 12:4,5)
Genesis 48: 15,16
Exodus 3:1-15 (compare vs. 5 with Joshua 5: 14,15)
Exodus 23:20,21
Judges 6:11-23
Note: In these passages the "Angel of Jehovah" speaks as Jehovah, is called Jehovah, does the works of Jehovah, and is worshipped by those to whom He appears. He is Jesus, the Son of God. "Angel" means "messenger" and is applied to the angelic beings, men (evangelists), and to God (see above)

Answers To Common Antitrinitarian Prooftexts
John 14:28 "My Father is greater than I." Just as the husband is positionally greater than the wife so the Father is greater the the Son. Both husband and wife are equally human as the Father and Son are equally divine.
Colossians 1:15 "the Firstborn of all creation." "Firstborn" (Gr. Prototokos), not "first created" (Gr. "Protoktistos". Firstborn is term that means first in importance. These scriptures bear that out: Genesis 41:51,52 with Jeremiah 31:9; Deuteronomy 21:15-17; Exodus 4:22; and Job 18:13.
Revelation 3:14 "the beginning of the creation of God." We derive many words such as architect, archangel, arch-rival, from the Greek word "arche" translated "beginning" in this verse. It means "origin," "source," "chief," and "ruler." Jesus is the origin of ALL, or the creator.
THE HOLY SPIRIT IS GOD
He Is Called God
Acts 5:3,4 Lying to the Spirit is lying to God
II Corinthians 3:17 "The Lord is that Spirit." (compare this with Exodus 34:29-35)
He Is Omnipotent
Isaiah 40:12-14 (See Romans 11:34 and I Corinthians 2:16)
He Is Omniscient
I Corinthians 2:10,11 Isaiah 40: 13,14
He Is Omnipresent
Psalm 139:7
He Is Eternal
Hebrews 9:14
He Has The Attributes Of Personality
Intellect
Romans 8:27, "The MIND of the Spirit."
I Corinthians 2:10-12, The Spirit "KNOWS."
Will
I Corinthians 12:11, "The Spirit WILLS."
Emotion
Ephesians 4:30, "GRIEVE" not the Spirit
His Self-Cognizance Is Shown By These Actions:
He Speaks
Acts 8:29; 10:19; 13:2; 21:11
Revelation 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22
He Teaches
Luke 12:12
John 14:26
I John 2:26,27
Says "I"
Acts 10:20
If the Holy Spirit is a self-cognizant personality, and is also eternal, then He must be God, for God is the only eternal being.
Conclusion

"So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods, but one God." (from The Athanasian Creed)

http://www.watchman.org/articles/general-topics-doctrine/biblical-basis-for-trinity/

Who Is the Angel of the Lord? (Judg 6:22-23)

IF GIDEON ONLY SAW AN ANGEL, WHY DID HE FEAR THAT HE MIGHT DIE? Many interpreters believe that an angel takes God's place and acts as his representative. However, others do not feel this explanation fits all the data. Who, then, is this "angel of the LORD"?

The angel of the Lord first appears in Genesis 16:7 and then intermittently throughout the early Old Testament books. In other passages an individual manifesting himself in human form is frequently called "the LORD" (Gen 12:7; 17:1; 18:1). If this angel actually were God, why is he called an angel? Since the root meaning of angel is "messenger" or "one who is sent," we must determine from context whether the word refers to the office of the sent one or to the nature of created angels as finite beings.

Initially, some contexts of the term "angel of the LORD" appear to refer to nothing more than any other angel (as in Judg 6:11). But as the narrative progresses, that angel soon transcends the angelic category and is described in terms suited only to a member of the Trinity. Thus in the Judges 6 episode, we are startled when verse 14 has the Lord speaking to Gideon, when previously only the angel of the Lord had been talking.

Many Old Testament passages state that this angel is God. Thus, after being told that Hagar had been speaking with the angel of the Lord (four times in Gen 16:7, 9-11), Genesis 16:13 informs us that Hagar "gave this name to the LORD who spoke to her: `You are the God who sees me.'" Jacob's testimony in Genesis 48:15-16 is even more striking. He identifies the God in whose presence his fathers Abraham and Isaac had lived as "the God who has been my shepherd all my life to this day, the Angel who has delivered me from all harm."

This angel spoke to Jacob earlier in a dream and identified himself by saying, "I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and where you made a vow to me" (Gen 31:11, 13).

Likewise in Exodus 3:2-6 the phrase "the angel of the LORD" is used interchangeably with "the LORD." In fact the angel claims, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob" (Ex 3:6).

The passage, however, that really clinches this remarkable identification is Exodus 23:20-23. There God promises to send his angel ahead of the children of Israel as they go through the desert. The Israelites were warned that they must obey and not rebel against this angel. The reason was a stunning one: "Since my Name is in him." God would never share his memorial name with anyone else, for Isaiah 42:8 advised that he would never share his glory with another. Thus the name of God stands for himself. And when a person is said to have the name of God in him, that person is God!

This angel has divine qualities, prerogatives and authority. He has the power to give life (Gen 16:10) and to see and know all (Gen 16:13; Ex 3:7). Only God can forgive sin, yet this angel did the same in Exodus 23:21. The angel performed miracles such as keeping a burning bush from being consumed (Ex 3:2), smiting Egypt with plagues (Ex 3:20), calling forth fire on the rock to consume the meal set for him (Judg 6:21) and ascending the flame of the altar (Judg 13:20).

Finally, this angel commanded and received worship from Moses (Ex 3:5) and Joshua (Josh 5:14). Angels were not to receive worship. When John attempted to worship an angel in Revelation 19:10; 22:8-9, he was corrected quickly and told not to do it.

It is clear from this abundance of evidence that the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament was a preincarnate form of our Lord Jesus Christ, who would later permanently take on flesh when he came as a babe in Bethlehem. But mark it well: the one who came after John had already been before--he was that angel of the Lord. His full deity was always observed and yet he presented the same mystery of the Trinity that would later be observed in "I and the Father are one" (Jn 10:30) and "my other witness is the Father, who sent me" (Jn 8:18). It is that word sent that ties together the angel, messenger or sent one into an Old Testament theology of christophanies, appearances of God in human form.

See also comment on GENESIS 32:23-33; EXODUS 24:9-11; 33:18-23.

http://www.ivpress.com/title/exc/1423-8c.php

Isaiah 6

1 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a throne, high and exalted, and the train of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him were seraphs, each with six wings: With two wings they covered their faces, with two they covered their feet, and with two they were flying. 3 And they were calling to one another:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord Almighty;

the whole earth is full of his glory.”

4 At the sound of their voices the doorposts and thresholds shook and the temple was filled with smoke.

5 “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the Lord Almighty.”

Re ^^

John 12:41

Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.

And of course Jesus did say

John 14:9

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Isaiah 6 is referring to Yahweh, this should be obvious.

In fact throughout my years as a Trinitarian , I never saw this any different. It was always Yahweh to me.

But for the fun of it, where were the father and the Holy Spirit during this encounter ? Where they on a vacation



The glory that Isaiah saw can be found in :


Isaiah 52:13-53:12

The Suffering and Glory of the Servant
13 See, my servant will act wisely[a];
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
14 Just as there were many who were appalled at him[b]—
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness—
15 so he will sprinkle many nations,[c]
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.

You can continue reading Isaiah 53 ( all of it ) and Isaish 9:6.

To suggest that Yahweh , Almighty father who was depicted by Isaiah in chapter 6 is JESUS , is adding to the word of GOD and wrenching verses out of context.

But then again what is new with Trinitarians, verse twisting, verse wrenching and cherry picking has become the order of the day. And even at this , they still cannot show us one clear example in scripture where GOD says or Jesus says he is 3 Persons.

Could the reason not be because this Trinity does not exist ? I think so !

Boomark:

Do you disagree that ubenedictus is all in all?

even christianus also say he is all in all, becos he come from d linage of his fada and all d fada has accding to dat 'linage' belongs also to christianus.

Ubenedictus and Christiantus are both human but ubenedictus is greater than Christiantus. Therefore Christiantus is his subject. Do you DISAGREE?

christianus took up d position of a servant to save d servant, so yes christianus is a subject by his newly assumed position. And in his 'pre-servant' time d fada is greater in respect to relations.

Ubenedictus had other sons but outsiders don't give them the same respect they gave ubenedictus. Knowing fully well that they also have the same human nature with him. Why?

no! No! No! Ubenedictus has just one son that he begot, the other sons he purchased(adopted), and yet other he made. Only christianus was born by ubenedictus. Only christianus comes directly from d linage of ubenedictus becos christianus was born, not adopted and not created like d odas.

Insiders believe that ubenedictus is all in all. And that Christiantus is his subject. They respect ubenedictus base on his greatness, power and authority. They also respect Christiantus base the fact that ubenedictus has made him the only way through which people can get to him, and that he has been given authority by ubenedictus over all dat he own so that he can bring more outsiders to him.
Their belief is just as it is written in the documentary.

no the so called insiders have degraded christianus, they say christianus isnt from d linage of ubenedictus (thus calling him a bastard) they say that christianus didnt recieve somethings not everything even though the 'documentary' says so. Some even say that christianus wasnt the real son of ubenedictus. When they deny the truth that christianus is d son and fully posses d state of ubenedictus, they insult both ubenedictus and christianus. He wu refuses to honor christianus as he honor ubenedictus has refused to truly honor and honor rightly both ubenedictus and christianus. That is what d documentary say.

1. No one has seen God; no one can see God and live!

Exodus 33:20

But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

John 1:18

No one has ever seen God . . .

1 Timothy 6:16

who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.

2. Who then did Isaiah (and others like Daniel etc) see?

Isaiah 6:5

"Woe to me!" I cried. "I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty."

3. Thankfully we have help!

John 12:41

Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.

4. Further help!

Colossians 1:15

He is the image of the invisible God

Colossians 1:19

For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him

Hebrews 1:3

The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

5. And finally

John 14:9

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Enigma: Isaiah 6


Re ^^

John 12:41


And of course Jesus did say

John 14:9

The bible say Yahweh will not share His glory with another yet John say Jesus' glory was Yahweh's glory in Isaiah, so if Yahweh will not share His glory with another, and yet Jesus' glory is Yahweh's glory in Isaiah according to John, then explain how Jesus is not Yahweh in the Old Testament?

ijawkid:

Lol......

I'm tryin to let you see that your definition of co-equality is tOo poor.....

no your understanding of co equality is very poor.

You are defining co-equality based on a jejune basis....

no! Im defining it d way the term has always been used as regards the trinity. They are coequal because they trully posses the fullness of the divine nature and essence.

How can 3 persons be aLl powerful,all knowing,all-good,all wise and yet just 1 person out of them 3 has authority over the rest??

because one is the "eternal source" of the rest. I told u b4 to learn abt sumtin b4 u criticize it. The fada gave birth to d son and not d other way round, the holyspirit proceed from the fada and not the other way round. That is why the fada is d head. It is called d teaching of the "monachy of d fada". Google it and Take a look b4 u ask another silly question.

The reason why I can't send my Papa message is because::

1....Me and my papa no be mate......

2....My papa is greater than I am....

3....I be subordinate to my papa...

it seems u repeated urself 3 times wit 3 different sentences. Weldone.

So if I can't send my papa message,while my papa dey send me message everytime,why I go come think say me and my papa equal??

because u b human like ur fada, d two of una equally and fully posses d human nature.

I no go be mad man to think say I dey co equal with my papa wey born me and wey dey pay my school fees??....

u alread coequal am by d fact say u born u human, e no born u animal.

Starting from Yahweh to the least angel...all are spirits.......

no! D fada is spirit, a pure spirit, with no body. The angels have a "spiritual body"

Why would I now conclude that because Yahweh and all heavenly beings share 1 common nature(spirits) so the angels are co equal with Yahweh and hÍs Son Jesus??

sorry d angels have an angelic nature they donot have the nature of God. The nature of God is uncreated dat of d angels is created. Do not decieve urself.

That's exactly what u are doing when you say because I'm flesh and blood with my parents therefore I'm co equal with them......

You better start thinking bro......

And stop this"" Yahweh is higher in rank than Jesus but Jesus is equal to his Father"" crap.....

Jesus is À subordinate and se®vant to Yahweh for all eternity....start getting this basic facts into your skull.....

same old story. Ijawkid welldone u just confirmed ur heresy! So an uncreated nature is d same as a created nature. Have arianism dulled ur brains?

ijawkid:

But he was beggotten abi??

Meaning that @ one time or the other unknown to us The Father existed b4 Jesus in other to beget Jesus.......

u have started again, eternity is outside time. There is nothing like time, before, after in eternity. Sorry!

For you to say Both Yahweh and Jesus co existed simultenously @ the same time would annul the word ""begotten""

it doesnt, my bible says d
fada is eternal without begining or end, he also has a begotten son wu is also without begining or end, is dat so hard 4 u to c? Open ur bible and see! That simple mean he eternally begat his son that is y neither d begetter nor d begotten have a beging and neither will have an end.

It will also annul the fact that Jesus is ""the image of the invincible God""

There would be no need for Jesus being the image of someone he is co-equal with....

where did u get dis logic, oh! Ofcuz d usual ijawkid is trying to reason linearly, oh! Sorry! No before of after in eternity, it isnt linear, dat is y eternity is outside time.

That would be arrant rubbish......

yeah ijawkid wants to limit God to d size of his brain.

And funny enough we humans ,angels and Jesus are all images of that invincible God........

are u also d exact representation of his being?

OÑe can only be the image of someone or something when he or she is not the original,.....

ijawkid is d image of his fada, according to ijawkid that mean he isnt a real or true human becuz he isnt d 'original'.

Which ever way u want to bend your mouth to say Christ was begotten from eternity,Yahweh existed b4 Christ in other to beget Him...

go and learn d meaning of the word eternal

Did it ever oocur to you that Jesus worships Yahweh??or mayb it eluded your trinity infested head.......lol...(Jus joking)

dont worry to add the bracket, i naturally dont take your insults serious most times. Ur opinion abt me doesnt define me God defines me. To d question, Jesus to a human form and even became lower dan d angels he became a man. As man he truly gave latria to d fada, and as God he asks men for d exact same honor dat men give d fada.

But that's my point up there....

same old story. Is that it?

Boomark:

Pastor kun fu don put you for high jump. Do you think he is just an ordinary pastor? Ok na.

That is his name forever. From generation to generation Ex 3:15.
Why the change in new testament?

Have you seen what rejecting the of God can cause? Its never too late.

bookmark which kind tory cum b dis one?

Boomark:

Assemblies believe in trinity.
What i believe in is not call 'anti-trinity belief.'
It is a belief in the Only True God, our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ.

no! Dear sir/madam, what u believe is called arianism.

Ubenedictus: no your understanding of co equality is very poor.

no! Im defining it d way the term has always been used as regards the trinity. They are coequal because they trully posses the fullness of the divine nature and essence.

because one is the "eternal source" of the rest. I told u b4 to learn abt sumtin b4 u criticize it. The fada gave birth to d son and not d other way round, the holyspirit proceed from the fada and not the other way round. That is why the fada is d head. It is called d teaching of the "monachy of d fada". Google it and Take a look b4 u ask another silly question.

it seems u repeated urself 3 times wit 3 different sentences. Weldone.

because u b human like ur fada, d two of una equally and fully posses d human nature.

u alread coequal am by d fact say u born u human, e no born u animal.

no! D fada is spirit, a pure spirit, with no body. The angels have a "spiritual body"

sorry d angels have an angelic nature they donot have the nature of God. The nature of God is uncreated dat of d angels is created. Do not decieve urself.
same old story. Ijawkid welldone u just confirmed ur heresy! So an uncreated nature is d same as a created nature. Have arianism dulled ur brains?

So angels have a spiritual body while God is a spirit abi??

Na now I know say u need paracetamol....

All beings in the heavens are spirits....

Telling me the Father is a pure spirit while the angels have spiritual body is crazy...spiritual body is the spirit mr ubenidictus....u can't live in heaven and not be a spirit..

Come let me dÉbunk you a lil bit

Open your bible to hebrews 1:14


New International Version (©1984)
Are not all angels ministering ""spirits"" sent to
serve those who will inherit salvation?
.....
New Living Translation (©2007)
Therefore, angels are only servants--""spirits""
sent to care for people who will inherit
salvation.
....
English Standard Version (©2001)
Are they not all ministering ""spirits"" sent out to
serve for the sake of those who are to inherit
salvation?
.....

Only spirits reside in the heavens...if you can't know that @ this your age then I wonder when you'll know....:-)

And once again Jesus and the Father aint coequal......

As just proved we can then say that all angels are coequal with the Father and son because they are all spirits........

You can't run away from this fact.....

Coequality goes beyond just nature,it encompasses everything....

For that fact Jesus is not co-equal to his Father......

Ubenedictus: u have started again, eternity is outside time. There is nothing like time, before, after in eternity. Sorry!

it doesnt, my bible says d
fada is eternal without begining or end, he also has a begotten son wu is also without begining or end, is dat so hard 4 u to c? Open ur bible and see! That simple mean he eternally begat his son that is y neither d begetter nor d begotten have a beging and neither will have an end.
where did u get dis logic, oh! Ofcuz d usual ijawkid is trying to reason linearly, oh! Sorry! No before of after in eternity, it isnt linear, dat is y eternity is outside time.

yeah ijawkid wants to limit God to d size of his brain.

are u also d exact representation of his being?

ijawkid is d image of his fada, according to ijawkid that mean he isnt a real or true human becuz he isnt d 'original'.

go and learn d meaning of the word eternal

dont worry to add the bracket, i naturally dont take your insults serious most times. Ur opinion abt me doesnt define me God defines me. To d question, Jesus to a human form and even became lower dan d angels he became a man. As man he truly gave latria to d fada, and as God he asks men for d exact same honor dat men give d fada.

same old story. Is that it?

I am the image or carbon copy of my Father only shows

1..I am not my Father..

2...My Father pro-created me..

3....I and my Father are not equals.....

The same goes for Jesus and his Father.....

Jesus being the image of the Father simply means Yahweh created Jesus....

How u intend to run away from this baffles me....

And please show me which scripture that says Jesus didn't have a beginning...

Jesus is the 1st born of all creation....he is the beginning of the creation of Yahweh...

Jesus has a beginning.......

He was begotten,created etc......

Get that.....

There is nothing like begotten eternally.....

Begotten is begotten........

ijawkid:

So angels have a spiritual body while God is a spirit abi??

Na now I know say u need paracetamol....

oh! Sorry! I just remembered ur heachache

All beings in the heavens are spirits....

are they all immaterial, unchangeable and infinite?

Telling me the Father is a pure spirit while the angels have spiritual body is crazy...spiritual body is the spirit mr ubenidictus....u can't live in heaven and not be a spirit..

no! I cant live in heaven without having being transformed. My coporal and mortal body becomes spiritualised it becomes incoporal and immortal e.t.c but yet that my spiritual body isnt infinite, immovable. The angel are finite and they move though invisible to us.

Come let me dÉbunk you a lil bit

Open your bible to hebrews 1:14


New International Version (©1984)
Are not all angels ministering ""spirits"" sent to
serve those who will inherit salvation?
.....
New Living Translation (©2007)
Therefore, angels are only servants--""spirits""
sent to care for people who will inherit
salvation.
....
English Standard Version (©2001)
Are they not all ministering ""spirits"" sent out to
serve for the sake of those who are to inherit
salvation?
.....

Only spirits reside in the heavens...if you can't know that @ this your age then I wonder when you'll know....:-)

that again didnt contradict my point, by adding the word "body" after spiritual i simply implied that d angels lack the essential, unapproachable, immovable and infinite nature of God, that is my point.

And once again Jesus and the Father aint coequal......

Jesus posses d fulness of d deity sumtin dat hasnt been said of any1. There is nting fuller dan "fullness". Ofcuz dat is equality.

As just proved we can then say that all angels are coequal with the Father and son because they are all spirits........

they donot have d same nature. The uncreated nature can never be d same as d created, u are spewing heresy!

You can't run away from this fact.....

Coequality goes beyond just nature,it encompasses everything....

sorry that is ur definition. We wu believe it do not define it that way. Are u to define what i believe? When i and truly all catholics talk abt coequality we are refering to equality accding to nature and essence. Im suppose to teach u what i believe. U cant teach me my believe becos u dont know it.

For that fact Jesus is not co-equal to his Father......

old story.

Ubenedictus: oh! Sorry! I just remembered ur heachache

are they all immaterial, unchangeable and infinite?

no! I cant live in heaven without having being transformed. My coporal and mortal body becomes spiritualised it becomes incoporal and immortal e.t.c but yet that my spiritual body isnt infinite, immovable. The angel are finite and they move though invisible to us.

that again didnt contradict my point, by adding the word "body" after spiritual i simply implied that d angels lack the essential, unapproachable, immovable and infinite nature of God, that is my point.

Jesus posses d fulness of d deity sumtin dat hasnt been said of any1. There is nting fuller dan "fullness". Ofcuz dat is equality.

they donot have d same nature. The uncreated nature can never be d same as d created, u are spewing heresy!

sorry that is ur definition. We wu believe it do not define it that way. Are u to define what i believe? When i and truly all catholics talk abt coequality we are refering to equality accding to nature and essence. Im suppose to teach u what i believe. U cant teach me my believe becos u dont know it.
old story.

You are just running about.....

All beings in heaven are spirits.....

Ubenidictus u can't run away from this simple truth.......

John 4:24 says God is a ""spirit""

Hebrews confirms that all angels are ""spirits.""..

How you can't understand this simple truth gets me bewildered.......

Every being in heaven are spirits.....

Weren't the angels also created in Gods image??

And please discard ur catholic definition of co equality and stick to what the bible teaches.....

Yahweh and his son aint co-equal....

Them no be mate....

ijawkid:

I am the image or carbon copy of my Father only shows

1..I am not my Father..

yeah?

2...My Father pro-created me..

sorry that isnt what my bible says. My bible say begot not "pro-create" where did u get that word from? Is that one of ur Jw term?

3....I and my Father are not equals.....

hahaha

The same goes for Jesus and his Father.....

Jesus being the image of the Father simply means Yahweh created Jesus....

so your father created you abi? Hahaha, my bible didnt say "create" it say "begot". My parent didnt create me they begot me. The same 4 the Word.

How u intend to run away from this baffles me....

there is nting to run from.

And please show me which scripture that says Jesus didn't have a beginning...

heb 7:3

Jesus is the 1st born of all creation....he is the beginning of the creation of Yahweh...

he is the arche of creation, that means he is the source of creation. If u claim that Jesus was created, that mean Jesus created himself. Because by bible say "there was NOTHING created but thru him". Goodluck with that.

Jesus has a beginning.......

this isnt in d bible

He was begotten,created etc......
Get that.....

There is nothing like begotten eternally.....

Begotten is begotten........

hahahaha, please dont cry, the word already was "in the begining" there is no time before "in the begining". The earliest time dat d bible bears witness to is 'd beginning'. And Jesus existed before d begining. Wow, d guy was b4 d begining, that is eternity. If u cant see that then u need to go wash ur eyes. That is what i mean wen i said he wasnt begotten in time, d guy came from eternity.
Peace

even christianus also say he is all in all, becos he come from d linage of his fada and all d fada has accding to dat 'linage' belongs also to christianus.

You don't want to believe what is written in 1Cor15:28 because it will affect your trinity belief. In the affairs concerning Christiantus and ubenedictus, ubenedictus is all in all. That is what i asked. Do you agree?

christianus took up d position of a servant to save d servant, so yes christianus is a subject by his newly assumed position. And in his 'pre-servant' time d fada is greater in respect to relations.

Good. Even post-servant time. v28

no! No! No! Ubenedictus has just one son that he begot, the other sons he purchased(adopted), and yet other he made. Only christianus was born by ubenedictus. Only christianus comes directly from d linage of ubenedictus becos christianus was born, not adopted and not created like d odas.

Have you forgotten when the sons of ubenedictus came to present themselves and one enemy was found among them. Job 1:6, Gen 6:2. It is only the insiders that are his adopted sons. Do u get it?

no the so called insiders have degraded christianus, they say christianus isnt from d linage of ubenedictus (thus calling him a bastard) they say that christianus didnt recieve somethings not everything even though the 'documentary' says so. Some even say that christianus wasnt the real son of ubenedictus. When they deny the truth that christianus is d son and fully posses d state of ubenedictus, they insult both ubenedictus and christianus. He wu refuses to honor christianus as he honor ubenedictus has refused to truly honor and honor rightly both ubenedictus and christianus. That is what d documentary say.

So you sabi lie like this? My friend the lie is obvious na. Is it just to protect your trinity? I hope you know who the father of liars is?

Boomark:

You don't want to believe what is written in 1Cor15:28 because it will affect your trinity belief. In the affairs concerning Christiantus and ubenedictus, ubenedictus is all in all. That is what i asked. Do you agree?

it all depends on d way u interprete it.

Good. Even post-servant time. v28

is dat suppose to suprise me? He took human nature, he resurrected like all humans will, he still has dat human nature. It is called hypostatic union, that mean since he took human nature he has been subject to d fada. It doesnt suprise me.

Have you forgotten when the sons of ubenedictus came to present themselves and one enemy was found among them. Job 1:6, Gen 6:2. It is only the insiders that are his adopted sons. Do u get it?

have u forgotten that none of dose "sons" were begoten. There is only 1 begoten.

So you sabi lie like this? My friend the lie is obvious na. Is it just to protect your trinity? I hope you know who the father of liars is?

if dere is untruth in my previous post point it out, if not why do u accuse me.

Boomark:

You don't want to believe what is written in 1Cor15:28 because it will affect your trinity belief. In the affairs concerning Christiantus and ubenedictus, ubenedictus is all in all. That is what i asked. Do you agree?

it all depends on d way u interprete it.

Good. Even post-servant time. v28

is dat suppose to suprise me? He took human nature, he resurrected like all humans will, he still has dat human nature. It is called hypostatic union, that mean since he took human nature he has been subject to d fada. It doesnt suprise me.

Have you forgotten when the sons of ubenedictus came to present themselves and one enemy was found among them. Job 1:6, Gen 6:2. It is only the insiders that are his adopted sons. Do u get it?

have u forgotten that none of dose "sons" were begoten. There is only 1 begoten.

So you sabi lie like this? My friend the lie is obvious na. Is it just to protect your trinity? I hope you know who the father of liars is?

if dere is untruth in my previous post point it out, if not why do u accuse me.

Ubenedictus: yeah?

sorry that isnt what my bible says. My bible say begot not "pro-create" where did u get that word from? Is that one of ur Jw term?

hahaha

so your father created you abi? Hahaha, my bible didnt say "create" it say "begot". My parent didnt create me they begot me. The same 4 the Word.

there is nting to run from.

heb 7:3

he is the arche of creation, that means he is the source of creation. If u claim that Jesus was created, that mean Jesus created himself. Because by bible say "there was NOTHING created but thru him". Goodluck with that.
this isnt in d bible
hahahaha, please dont cry, the word already was "in the begining" there is no time before "in the begining". The earliest time dat d bible bears witness to is 'd beginning'. And Jesus existed before d begining. Wow, d guy was b4 d begining, that is eternity. If u cant see that then u need to go wash ur eyes. That is what i mean wen i said he wasnt begotten in time, d guy came from eternity.
Peace

To start with let's define the word ""begot"" so that you can start thinking straigth...

Definition of BEGET
1
: to procreate as the father : sire
2
: to produce especially as an effect or
outgrowth

Synonyms: effect, breed, bring, bring about,
bring on, catalyze, cause, create, do, draw on,
effectuate, engender, generate, induce,
invoke, make, occasion, produce, prompt,

From that you can see what the word beget or begot means...

Begot means create,pro-create,to cause etc....

Infact Jesus was created...your definition of Jesus being the ""beginning"" of the creation of God is totally wrong and against the bibles view point...your interpretation of ""ARKHE"" is fashioned after greek philosophy..

According to the Expositors greek testament,to understand revelation 3;14 as meaning that Jesus is ""the active source"" of creation,rather than the first created person,one must interprete ""ARKHE"" as in the greek philosophy and [non-biblical] Jewish wisdom-literature,=aitía or origin..""
But ofcus the inspired bible writers weren't greek philosophers and so never borrowed ideas from greek philosophy...

Let us now from the scriptures find out what the word ""ARKHE"" means....the bible explains itself




try comparing revelation 3:14

and colossians 1:15 with these scriptures.....

Genesis 49: 2-3....
King James Version (KJV)
2 Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye
sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your
father.
3 Reuben, thou art my ""firstborn"", my might, and
""the beginning"" of my strength, the excellency
of dignity, and the excellency of power:

Also deuteronomy 21:17
American King James Version
But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated
for the firstborn, by giving him a double
portion of all that he has: for he is ""the
beginning"" of his strength; the right of the
""firstborn"" is his.
....
American Standard Version..
but he shall acknowledge the first-born, the
son of the hated, by giving him a double portion
of all that he hath; for he is"the beginning of""
his strength; the right of the ""first-born"" is his.

.............

Take a close look @ those 2 expressions also used to describe Jesus in revelation and colossians....""FIRST BORN"" and ""THE BEGINNING of""

Ofcus from genesis we know reuben was jacobs 1st born son amongst jacobs kids....reuben wa§ part of the group that indeed made up Jacobs offsprings...bÙt he was the 1st of them all....

And it was reuben who was the beginning of jacobs pro creation (so to speak)....

You can't tell me reuben being the ""beginning of"" jacobs strength and power means reuben is infact the source of Jacobs strength....
....

The same with the verse from deuteronomy 21:17...




You might also wanna ask why the earthly Jesus is called mary's FIRST BORN..??.

I guess you know.....

Amongst mary's kids Jesus was the 1st she gave birth to....infact this sc®ipture gives a perfect rebuttal to catholÍcs who believe mary never had other children apart from Jesus........
...
But back to the main discussion..

The expression ""FIRST BORn"" son clearly shows that mary gave birth to other kids,but Jesus was the 1st of them all.......

Let's read luke 2:7......
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
And she gave birth to her """firstborn"" son; and
she wrapped Him in cloths, and laid Him in a
manger, because there was no room for them
in the inn.
.........
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And she brought forth her"" firstborn"" son, and
wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him
in a manger; because there was no room for
them in the inn.

When ever the word 1st born is applied to living things that is the correct exegesis......

The scriptures explain itself.....

Stop clinging to greek philosophies and let the bible explain itself....

The words ""ARKHE"" and ""prototokos"" has been used several times in the bible....

And when ever they apply to living beings the meaning remains constant......

Jesus being the 1st born of all creation shows that Jesus is part of Yahwehs creation but he is the 1st....while Jesus became the agent through which Yahweh created all other things,the same way Yahweh ressurected Jesus from the dead 1st and through Jesus ressurection of millions will be accomplished...that is why Jesus is called ""1st born"" from the dead..I know u've denied that Jesus didn't die completely ,so I don't even expect you to think rationally...

If Jesus isn't part of the family of those who died and was ressurected,there is no way he(Jesus) would be called ""1st born"" from the dead....

Also Jesus being the ""beginning of "" Gods creation shows Jesus is the 1st of Yahwehs creative works just as reuben was the 1st of Jacobs kids...

Learn to let the bible explain itself and forfeit the catholic creeds........

Some Scriptures proving Yahweh's superiority over Lord Jesus his Son.


Micah 5:4
American Standard Version (ASV)
4 And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth.

Here we see Jesus standing and feeding his flock in the name of Yahweh his GOD

Psalm 2:1-2
Why do the nations rant?
Why do the peoples rave uselessly?
2 The earth’s rulers take their stand;
the leaders scheme together
against the Lord and
against his anointed one..

Against God and his anointed one JESUS, this should be clear to anyone.


Psalm 2:7
I will announce the Lord’s decision:
He said to me, “You are my son,
today I have become your father.


Lord here referring to Jesus and Father Yahweh who begat the Son.

trinity meaning of begotten debunked.

The Father shown as the only Almighty.

Ubenedictus: it all depends on d way u interprete it.

Ok give me your own interpretation of 1Cor15:28. What the 'all in all' means as a result of what happened in v27.

is dat suppose to suprise me? He took human nature, he resurrected like all humans will, he still has dat human nature. It is called hypostatic union, that mean since he took human nature he has been subject to d fada. It doesnt suprise me.

Sit at my right hand until i make your enemy you foot stool was not in His human form. He is still a subject then. Are you now surprised?

have u forgotten that none of dose "sons" were begoten. There is only 1 begoten.

At least Ijawkid has made it clear what begotten means. He was created by the Father,

if dere is untruth in my previous post point it out, if not why do u accuse me.

All of it.

Just a quick question for frosbee and Ijawkid: who do you guys say Jesus is?

Jeiel: Just a quick question for frosbee and Ijawkid: who do you guys say Jesus is?

He is the only begotten Son of God...john 3:16.........

ijawkid:

He is the only begotten Son of God...john 3:16.........

May your days be loooooooooong.

kola oloye:
May your days be loooooooooong.

Kola hi, it's been long since i saw your post on this forum. hope you are doing great.

Pastor Kun:

Kola hi, it's been long since i saw your post on this forum. hope you are doing great.

You are appreciated for your concern.
I only took a short break.It is well.

ijawkid:

Did u read the next verse??

Verse 9 reads::::
Hbr 1:9
Thou hast loved righteousness and hated
lawlessness; therefore God, thy God, has
anointed thee with the oil of gladness beyond
thy comrades."(RSV)
....

In the
Trinitarian translation, God the Father
speaking to God the Son, "O God," and then
God the Father tells God the Son that he,
God the Father, is God the Son's God,
"God, your God." It is ridiculously
preposterous. God the Son has a God?

Joe4Christ do you see the reason why the. Way u read verse 8 of hebrews 1 is wrong??

In trying to prove that Yahweh called Jesus God(ofcus he didn't call Jesus ""my God"" verse 9 goes further to show that Yahweh is the God of Jesus.....

.......

Now it is good to consider what really hebrews 1:8 $ 9 is saying...

As we all know hebrews 1: 8 $9 is an excerpt from psalms 45: 6-7....which had an earlier fulfillment on david and davids son(king solomon) before it did have a greater fulfillment on Jesus Christ.....

Now let us read psalms 45:6-7 from some trinitarians translations to get the full gist...
RSV(revised standard version)
Psalm 45:6-9
6 ""Your divine throne"" endures for ever and ever.
Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity; 7 you
love righteousness and hate wickedness.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with
the oil of gladness above your fellows;
GNT(Good News
Translation)
Psalm 45:6-7
6 ""The kingdom that God has given you"" will last
forever and ever. You rule over your people with
justice; 7 you love what is right and hate what is
evil. That is why God, your God, has chosen you
and has poured out more happiness on you than
on any other king....
......

Do you see the renderings;;::

1.."Your divine throne""
2..""The kingdom that God has given you""....

Instead of ""your throne O God""??


This renderings are congruent with the following verses of psalm 45:7 and hebrews 1:9 that says that the annointed king has Yahweh as his God.....

King solomon and david sat on Yahwehs throne(davids throne) and on that same throne is what Jesus was to sit on.....
And both david,solomon,and Jesus all have Yahweh as there GOD who annointed them...

That is why just as servants of Yahweh back then bowed down to both Yahweh and his appointed king (david) so also all peoples of the earth and in the heavens this time will bow down to Yahweh and the greater david(Jesus)
......
Let's confirm this from 1 chronicles 29:20 $ 23

20 And David said to all the congregation, Now
bless the LORD your God. And all the
congregation blessed the LORD God of their
fathers, and bowed down their heads, and
worshipped the LORD, and the king..
23 Then Solomon sat on the throne of the
LORD as king instead of David his father, and
prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.
......

take note::the king mentioned in verse 20 of 1 chronicles was king david....(Servants of Yahweh bowed down to appointed kings of Yahweh)


Later on solomon sat on Gods throne and lastly Jesus who is the last appointed king sat on Gods throne..

Points:::

1....Hebrews 1: 8-9 is an excerpt of psalms 45 6-7..and it had its 1st fulfillment on human kings..verse 11 of psalms 45 says He(david) is marrying the princess of Tyre.


2..The prophecy in psalms had its earlier fulfillment on david and his son(solomon) who sat on Gods throne and then later on to Jesus who is the only begotten son of Yahweh who sat on the throne of david his Father.....

3..If one reads hebrews 1:8 with a trinitarian eye then one would have to conclude that david and solomon were God and that God has a God...that would be absurdity @ its peak...We can see from a review of the original
passage that God is not calling this Davidic
King "God" but is referring to that fact
that he sits upon a divinely established
throne...

4..GOD cannot be annointed,because he is neither under anybody nor has he got equals..

5..God has no contemporaries or fellows...GOD is over every one(with Jesus included)...rather it was Jesus who was exalted by GOD(Yahweh) over the angels and GOD(Yahweh) gave him a name greater than theirs(angels)....
.......

Hebrews and psalms from which hebrews 1: 8$9 was extracted had no intent of making Yahwehs appointed king(s) the same or equals with Yahweh...

It only shows that the davidic throne is divine,will last forever and that Yahweh is its source.....

And if you had noticed Yahweh didn't call Jesus""MY GOD""

rather it was Jesus who always reffered to Yahweh as ""MY GOD and FATHER""...

More than 10 times Jesus reffered to Yahweh as ""MY GOD""..............

In revelation 3:12 Jesus reffered to his Father as ""MY GOD"" four good times....

So don't force the trinity dogma into hebrews 1:8-9.......

Listen O joe ""Yahweh our GOD is 1 Yahweh""

Here is my assignment to you, help me differenciate this two scriptures:
[size=15pt] Hebrew 4:5 There is only one Lord, One faith, one baptism
6 and there is only one God and father, who is over us all and is in all of us and living through us.

AND

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born and unto us a son is given and the government shall rest upon his shoulders and his name shall be called WONDERFUL, COUNSELOR, MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHER AND THE PRINCE OF PEACE.

I'm waiting! [/size]