Was jesus's grand-father Jacob (Matt 1:1-16) or Levi (Luke 3: 33-38). Why are the genealogies in Luke and Matt so divergent with little or no correspondence? One has 27 generations to David and another has about 43.

By the way, what is the point of proving that jesus was a descendant of david when he is alleged to not be genetically linked to david (virgin birth)?

If jesus DNA was available today, what would an analysis reveal about his parentage?

=====================================================================================================

Some of my other threads


The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles And Some History: Who Was Jesus?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112697.msg1954632#msg1954632

Only For Those Who Know Their Bibles: Old Testament Stories
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112679.msg1954426#msg1954426

Human Sacrifice In The Bible: Lev 27: 29 & Judges 11
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112584.msg1953340#msg1953340

Please, Please, Please: Christians - Read Read Read Your Bibles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112578.msg1953311#msg1953311

When Was Jesus Crucified?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112557.msg1952665#msg1952665

On Conversion To A Religion (christianity Or I-slam)
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112547.msg1952353#msg1952353

Faith-healers And Tele-evangelists
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112398.msg1950528#msg1950528

Where Did Sin Originate?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112377.msg1950291#msg1950291

For The Non-beleivers Only, 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112262.msg1948957#msg1948957

Would Christains Be Criminals And Offenders If They Were Not Christians?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112259.msg1948919#msg1948919

On The Authenticity Of The New Testament, Part 1
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112240.msg1948631#msg1948631

Has Atheism Got Principle? No
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112216.msg1948180#msg1948180

It Is Biblical To Have Sex (and Lots Of It) Before Marriage
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112139.msg1946940#msg1946940

Should The Old Testament Laws Be Observed In The Modern Era?
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112114.msg1946682#msg1946682

Founding A State or Nation On Religious Principles
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=112086.msg1946268#msg1946268

Great Books About Non-belief
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111928.msg1943935#msg1943935

Who Are The Self-declared Non-believer? Resources For You
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111806.msg1942137#msg1942137

Beware of a Simplistic Interpretation of Jesus's 2nd Coming Passages
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111677.msg1939992#msg1939992

Archbishop Cause Furore Over Sharia Law In The Uk
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111645.msg1939155#msg1939155

Eminent Christian Scientist (francis Collins) Explains The Evolution Of Humans
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111482.msg1936158#msg1936158

Please, Help Me Out With Your Knowledge Of The Bible
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111474.msg1936099#msg1936099

Why Biology Is So Important To Our Modern World
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111466.msg1935975#msg1935975

Genesis Vs Genetics
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111227.msg1932655#msg1932655

Jesus Genealogy
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111222.msg1932616#msg1932616

£300 (three - Hundred Pound Sterling) Essay Competition
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=111143.msg1931508#msg1931508

Beware Of Religious Fundamentalism In Your University Campuses
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110965.msg1929160#msg1929160

====================================================================================================

Jesus' blood flows through the wounds of true Stigmatists (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmata).

You may want to travel, visit one, take blood samples and do tests for yourself.

Jesus is Real, that's why the scientific methods are confounded when they want to disprove His existence.

Is this a touch of desperation or what? Shouldn't there be some semblance of veracity in the stories of the bible?

therationa:

Is this a touch of desperation or what?

Perhaps you should be thinking of your desperations by now - it shows so conspicuously that one does not need a magnifying glass to observe it.

What's with all the desperate moves to deliberately spell Jesus with a small 'j' when it costs you absolutely nothing to carefully spell others like Jacob with a capital?

therationa:

Shouldn't there be some semblance of veracity in the stories of the bible?

There is a semblance - and when you trace the lineage in their respective descents, it doesn't prove difficult to see who is being represented between Matthew's and Luke's accounts.

therationa:

Is this a touch of desperation or what? Shouldn't there be some semblance of veracity in the stories of the bible?

There is a semblance its just that you are deliberately blinding urself not to see it. The lineage in Matthew is that of Joseph while that in Luke is that of Mary. On that basis Jesus Christ IS of the tribe of David.

@therationa

Don't put too much trust in science, it has led the likes of bawomol to a state of confusion, saying ->
God does not exist, but He has MPD!!!

There is a wisdom of this world which is plain old foolishness to God.

imhotep:

God does not exist, but He has MPD!!!

Ha! But wait. . . how does one begin to "prove" that someone has an MPD because He does not exist? Bo, this roundabout antics don tire me!

First, God does not exist. Then second, He has an MPD - even though - ??

To summarise Bawomol's state of clinical psychosis:

God does not exist even though He has MPD . . . however since God is an abstract entity imagined by man it is unlikely that we can prove or disprove His existence.

@bawomol

Your case is that of 'so much motion, but no movement'.

You guys (therationa, imhotep, 4Him. . bawomol) are just too great in this thread! I've thoroughly enjoyed my afternoon - and I do wish you all a fantastic evening!

God does not, spelling Jesus with small letter j, well to some of you who think your brain is bigger than your head and deliberately ridicule Jesus Christ on this platform so that you can be recognised and feel good, my say is this: your days of reckoning are not far from you. Carry on.

You guys have no regard for JESUS CHRIST anymore, u've all been brain washed by many untrue theory of modern age science. And the funny thing is hypocricy is what is disturbing many of you; on the inside i'm sure you all believe well JESUS IS LORD.

I advise you should all ask for forgiveness of sin (BLASPHEMY). Pls becareful because GOD can strike at any point in time, remember what happened to the Egyptians, visit there and they will tell you GOD IS REAL AND HE IS THE MOST HIGH.

PEACE BE TO US ALL.

4HIm is the only one that has answered your question. The purpose of the account of Matthew id to ahow us that Jesus was not born of Joseph. He was born of God through Mary. Thats why the account of Luke points to the family of Mary. If also helps us to understand that Christ did not come from the lineage of the Kings of Judag as we can see the deviation at the point of David and then Nathan. So He did not come from the Solomon line.

May His will be done

@toluxa1,

toluxa1:

If also helps us to understand that Christ did not come from the lineage of the Kings of Judag

Does that suggest that Christ did not descend from the lineage of Judah?

toluxa1:

4HIm is the only one that has answered your question. The purpose of the account of Matthew id to ahow us that Jesus was not born of Joseph. He was born of God through Mary. Thats why the account of Luke points to the family of Mary. If also helps us to understand that Christ did not come from the lineage of the Kings of Judag as we can see the deviation at the point of David and then Nathan. So He did not come from the Solomon line.

May His will be done

The bible never called Him the son of Solomon . . . always Jesus Son of David.

Nowhere in the genealogies of Luke and Matt is Mary so much as mentioned. I challenge you guys to show me a reference to Mary in Luke and Matthew's genealogies.

@toluxa1,

toluxa1:

If also helps us to understand that Christ did not come from the lineage of the Kings of Judag

Actually, if you carefully study the genealogy, you will find that Christ descended from the lineage of the Kings of Judah. There's one verse which should help you in this:

For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda;
of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Hebrews 7:14

This is why those who worry so much about a seeming "contradiction" in the genealogies have never taken the time to look at the contexts of those two accounts. This question has been recycled so many times and answered so many times on Nairaland, and that's why I just did not bother trying to refer to the various links to the threads where the answers have been offered. Rather, my initial brief answer was to invite the OP himself to seriously think for himself instead of recycling the ideas of others who cannot think for themselves.

therationa:

Nowhere in the genealogies of Luke and Matt is Mary so much as mentioned. I challenge you guys to show me a reference to Mary in Luke and Matthew's genealogies.

In other words, Mary was in no way connected to Jesus in His ancestry? Or, we are to assume now that the new challenge is that Mary was not His mother?

Is that the new desperate excuse? Whatever happened to the initial comments that have been offered already which you have tersely evaded?

therationa:

Nowhere in the genealogies of Luke and Matt is Mary so much as mentioned. I challenge you guys to show me a reference to Mary in Luke and Matthew's genealogies.

Notice this verse: Luke 3: 23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

1. The key phrase here is in highlights: it is clear that the Jews traced their lineages primarily through men and NOT through females so it is unlikely that Dr. Luke would have described the lineage of Jesus Christ through Mary.

2. There is a clear difference between the lineages in Matthew and Luke so we know that both writers were talking about 2 different persons.

3. Look at that phrase in highlights again: the greek word there is "nomizo" which means "by custom". This indicates that Jesus Christ was refered to as the son of Joseph . . . not by reason of birth but by reason of custom . . . clearly it is Mary that is being refered to here as the descendant of Heli and not Joseph.

@4Him,

Thank you very plenty!

@ stimulus,
We thank God . . . this link explained it in a lot more detail than i could go into. Perhaps therationa might be interested in doing some real "research".

4Him:

Perhaps therationa might be interested in doing some real "research".

Well therationa, would you be willing to look into this offer?

Luke's genealogy from Jesus;

Jesus
Joseph
Heli
Matthat
Levi
-
-
-

Matthew's genealogy from Jesus

Jesus
Joseph
Jacob
Matthan
Eleazar
---
---
---

I got this from a KJ bible. They both converge to Joseph, then Jesus. Where is Mary mentioned.

Now, also both of the Luke and Matt accounts converge on King David. Matt does so after 28 generations, but bizarrely Luke account has 43 generation, a difference of 15 generations. If the average life expectancy in 1st century Israel was about 40, then 15 generations amounts to about 600 years.

So for this to work, one of Jesus's parents would havehad to be 600 years older that the other. How BIZARRE.

@ therationa, i decided against going to read thru the genealogies again to reply your obvious borrowing from other sites while cleverly dressing up the questions as urs.

I explained why Mary was not mentioned in either of the 2 genealogies . . . the jews defined lineages along patriachal lines. The only way a lineage went thru a woman was if the man died without having any sons.

The 600yr generational gap is simply twaddle and exposes the desperate dearth of logic in people like you who peddle this alleged contradictions.
This gap is only possible if we make the huge assumption that every single Jew got married at about the same age and had children at exactly the same age.

When David was but a tiny teenager tending the flock, his oldest brothers were perhaps already grandfathers. If you traced 2 lineages, one thru David to Jesse and the other thru Eliab to Jesse . . . there would be a gap of at least 2 generations . . . would that mean a discrepancy?

Abraham did not have Isaac until he was 100, his brother Nahor by that time was long dead and had greatgrandchildren!

therationa:

How BIZARRE.

Isn't it queer that that you've been so desperate to crude all along? What's biting you, dude?

4HIM,

Please, could you refrain from ad Hominins. I am making my point without being insulting to you. I thought you were a christian.

therationa:

4HIM,

Please, could you refrain from ad Hominins. I am making my point without being insulting to you. I thought you were a christian.

Is this quote below your idea of being polite -?

therationa:

So for this to work, one of Jesus's parents would havehad to be 600 years older that the other. How BIZARRE.

therationa:

4HIM,

Please, could you refrain from ad Hominins. I am making my point without being insulting to you. I thought you were a christian.

1. they are no ad hominins directed at your person.
2. You have insulted the personality of Christ for so long . . . its hypocritical that you dont see it.
3. If indeed you see them as insults then i tender unreserved appologies.

4HIM,

Am not insulting anybody, nor Jesus. I am simply questioning the verisimilitude of the accounts. The person of Jesus stands apart from the written stories about him.

therationa:

The person of Jesus stands apart from the written stories about him.

That's a new one. Care to share this 'Jesus' who stands apart from the written accounts about Him?

@therationa
God is the Father of Jesus. Your main problem is that you have an issue with God. Unless you settle this issue, you will continue to be restless, confounded, and go on asking pointless, old questions that darken your spirit.

4HIM,

The reason I ask these questions is to satisfy my curiousity. If I was reading Soyinka, Achebe or Shakespeare and found a narrative with such discrepant account I would want to know why the story had been written in that fashion. I think it behooves me to apply the same reasoning to the bible. Don't you agree? You would not want me to just believe blindly, would you? I might as well also believe the claims that Rama, or Horus or Zeus were/are gods.

There are still problems with ascribing Luke's genealogy to Mary. Luke's account has 43 generations while Matt's has 28, a difference of 15. If we assume conservatively that on average first children were born to women aged 13 years old (This is very reasonable according to the christain sociologist Rodney Stark - http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Christianity-Marginal-Movement-Religious/dp/0060677015/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1202552535&sr=8-2)
that would make Luke's span 195 years longer than Matthews.

Now, I will be even more generous and call this 100 years rather than 195 years. This means that Mary's generation would have to have been 100 years older that Joseph's; or simply Mary was 100 years old when Jesus was born.

This does not accord with the traditional jewish custom of marriage, where grooms were usually much older than the bride. So somehow, this account has to be reconciled, not by appealing to the claim that Luke's accounts for Mary genealogy, because the numbers do not make sense - but by other means.

I shall deal with the issue of extending the genealogy right back to Adam in the next post.

Has anybody done any further research on the genealogy of Jesus?