The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes - Religion (28) - Nairaland
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Poll: Tithe-paying isAn old-testament law: 55% (74 votes)A new-testament requirement too: 44% (60 votes) This poll has ended |
Imagine You Own This Ride And Your Pastor Asked You To Sow A Seed With It / The Truth Your Pastor Would Not Tell You About Tithes: Tithing Is Unscriptural U / What Apostle Paul Had To Say About Tithes And Other Heretic Teachings (2) (3) (4)
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| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by DrummaBoy(m): 5:29pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
Bidam: Quintessential Bidam. Always avoiding the issues. Bidam: So, the additional scriptures I have added cannot be attended to? Bidam: 1. Paul was circumcized because he was born a Jew, like every other Jew in the land. And you yourself gave the reason he circumcized Timothy: to please the Jews and not because he was keeping the laws of Torah as a born again Christian. Bidam: That was just an addendum to help you comprehend the way and manner the new Christian church lived; if you are not interested in Barnabas and the scripture quoted on him, you are not interested in the whole counsel of God has depicted in the New Testament. You will rather remain with a parochial view, I assume. Bidam: Act 24:17 reads "Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation, and offerings." Did it mention tithe? Bidam: I know what you mean by reading the book of Act. It is still your penchant for twisting scripture that is moving you in that direction. You want me to believe that Paul lived as a Jew because he returned to Jerusalem and accepted the advice of James to go and make some sacrifices. We see in Acts 21 that the whole process was to please the Jews again: what informed his circumcising Timothy. And we know that Paul was not being hypocritical here: he was being everything to all men so as to save some (1 Corinthians 9:20). Paul's testimony to the Jews in Acts 21 was God's last warning to them to receive the New Covenant in His Son Jesus. When they refused, God moved in. Providentially God sent Titus to destroy Jerusalem in AD70, so that no levithical sacrifices, talkless of tithing, could be performed anymore. Unfortunately, we have today, Modern Day Judaizers, who are hell bent on restoring the Jewish religion; not to the temple now but to the church. God's wrath is upon you! 1 Like |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by DrummaBoy(m): 5:32pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
UNVEILLING MODERN DAY JUDAIZERS Jesus and the Judaizers A cursory study through the New Testament will show that the gospel of Jesus Christ had enemies from its inception. First century Palestine was a deeply religious one and the world Jesus was born into had some individuals who had constituted themselves as religious authorities: they were the Pharisees and Sadducees – sometimes seen as teachers and scribes. The gospel Jesus preached stood in stark contrast to that which the religious leaders of his days taught. While Jesus preached a message of inner renewal and sanctification, these men emphasized externalities. While Jesus encouraged frugality and faithfulness with money, the Pharisee and Sadducees were said to love money and encouraged people to give money to the synagogue over and above taking care of their families. While Jesus encouraged liberty amongst his followers, these people were known to tie up heaven burden on people that they could not carry themselves. While Jesus taught his disciples about the kingdom to come, these men knew nothing but earthly things. While Jesus taught with authority and in the power of the Holy Ghost, these men were clouds without rain. It is important to note that Jesus did not have kind words for these men. Hear him in Matthew 23: 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. For those who make a case for not criticizing men of God, they should hear what Jesus said of religious leaders of his day above. This position that Jesus took did not go without a price. The religious leaders saw to it that Jesus was killed. In fact as early as Mark 3, the Pharisees were already planning to kill Jesus: 6. And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him. They succeded at it eventually and the Lord of glory was crucified. When Paul discussed Jesus death in 1 Corinthians 2, he called those who crucified Jesus “princes of this world”. 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory The phrase “princes of this world” could be interpreted “rulers of this world” – the political, religious and demonic rulers of the world. The princes of this world will include Pilate, Pharisees, Sadducees, scribes and the devil himself. In their morbid jealousy and hatred, the Pharisees and Sadducees, had teamed up with satan to bring about his demonic work. We all know now that God was using all this to birth his eternal purpose on earth in sending a savior to mankind to redeem us from our sins. But because the religious leaders of that time were so demonic compliant, they were ready tools in the hands of the devil. I introduced this piece with Jesus’ experience with the Judaizers of his time so that I can proceed into what Paul himself experienced with Judaizer of his own time before finally discuss the Judaizers of our time. We will see that except in very minor details, the judaistic religion has not changed since the days of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. TBC |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by DrummaBoy(m): 5:33pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
Paul and the Judaizers Paul the apostle can only be described as a remarkable man when we realize that he confronted Judaism both in the world and in the church. Jesus had given a brief remark on the kind of suffering this man’s ministry was going to encounter when he was speaking to Ananias at Paul’s conversion (Acts 9:15-16). From Paul’s own testimony, Paul was born a jew. He grew up and was discipled under the strictest form of Judaism – he was a Pharisee. He was taught by Gamaliel; a man of such profound knowledge of the Torah and who was held at the highest esteem by the Jewish leaders that a word from him got the release of Peter and John from the murderous grip of the Jews in Acts 4. So Paul was well taught. Paul, however, had an encounter with Jesus on his way to Damascus, as he was persecuting Christians with authority from the Jewish leaders. He was born-again, and scripture records that immediately he began to preach Jesus whom he had been persecuting. Paul’s account in Galatian 2 shows that sometimes between the period of his conversion and the time he visited Peter and James, Paul was on a retreat in the wilderness and their God revealed the gospel of grace to him. Jesus himself had preached bits and pieces of this gospel in his earthly ministry but because he was born under the law and had to be subject to the law so as to fulfill the righteous requirement of the law for those of us who will subsequently come to have faith in Him, Jesus could not preach the gospel of grace (completely) as he would later reveal to Paul (this is the only way to explain why Paul’s message differed from Jesus’ without discussing the doctrine of dispensation). Jesus had however told the disciples that he could not teach them everything now but will reveal things to them bit by bit (John 14:26). The gospel of grace was part of the revelation that Peter got when he had the encounter with God on the top of a house subsequent to his meeting Cornelius in Acts 10. Though what Peter understood was that the gospel had been sent to the gentiles also and was not to be confined to Jews, alone. The fact that Peter’s ministry was limited to the Jews shows that he did not completely grasp the gospel of grace like Paul did and even if he did, he could not pay the price to preach it. But Paul paid that price. Why? Because God had given him the grace to do so (1 Corinthians 15:10). The gospel of grace as revealed to Paul was revolutionary. The core point of it was Justification by grace through faith (alone), Ephesians 2:8-9. The implication of this gospel meant that everything Moses gave as law was defunct and obsolete Galatians 3, 2Corinthians 3. There has been a change of law from the law of sin and death to the law of Spirit of Life, Hebrew 7:12; Romans 8:2. Rather than be led by law written of tablets of stones, the believer was now to be led by the Spirit of God, Romans 8:14. This gospel preached by Paul was against the Judaizers both in the Church and in the world. The latter part of the book of Acts gives an account of what Paul experienced in the hands of worldly Judaizers. But if his contention was with those in the world alone, it would have been a small matter. But Paul also had to contend with Judaizers in the church. The main object of contention with the Judaizers of Paul’s time was the question of whether gentile believers were to be circumcised or not. In Acts 15:2 it is recorded that Paul and Barnabas had no small dissention with these group of people. The matter was taken to the Jerusalem church and the verdict read: 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. The case seem to have closed there, not until again we see Paul in Galatians 2 saying that he had to withstand Peter to the face because he was acting hypocritical. What was the matter? Some Judaistic Christians had come from James, and Peter was now beginning to withdraw from the gentiles Christians who prior to those people’s coming, he had been eating with them. Following this rebuke, Paul laid down the eternal foundations upon which the gospel of grace is founded on in the book of Galatians: [b]1. There is only one gospel: the Gospel of Grace, any other is an accursed thing. And anyone who preaches such is accursed. Galatian 1:8,9 2. Justification is by faith(Galatians 3:6-7) and the subsequent life that the believer lives must be lived by faith, Galatians 2:20. Nothing in the law could secure a man’s salvation, v.21. 3. To start in faith and then to think you can secure your salvation by doing anything else in addition to it is foolishness. Galatians 3:1-3 4. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law. Galatians 3:13 (including the curse of not tithing in Malachi 3) and the blessing of Abraham comes to the believer by faith and not works, v.14 5. The purpose of the law was to reveal what sin is and the utter sinfulness of man that tries to keep it, and thus our need of a savior. Galatians 3:19-24 6. The law is weak and beggarly. Galatians 4: 8-9 7. God calls the believer to stand in liberty and not bondage to the law. Galatians 5:1 8. Those who seek to be justified by the law have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4 9. Christ fulfilled the law and those of us who obey the law of love, have fulfilled the law also; for all the law is fulfilled in the law of love. Galatians 5:14 10. The call on all believers is not to keep any aspect of the law but to be led by the Spirit and bear the fruit of the Spirit; for when we do this we are obliged to keep the law. Galatians 5:22-23 An in depth study of Galatians will reveal much more than these things enumerated above.[/b] |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by DrummaBoy(m): 5:33pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
My point in this piece is not to discuss what the gospel of grace is but to show that the gospel that Paul preached was not the ones the Judaistic Christians preached and it was a source of offence to these people, for which Paul suffered through out his ministry. Paul did not take it kindly with these people. Because in the bid to walk in love and discern the body of Christ, we are not to condemn other believers because they are weak (Romans 14), but the fact that Paul used the strongest terms possible against these people showed that these people were not Christians but the enemies of the gospel. In Galatians, Paul suggested that any one who wanted to circumcise others to be saved should not only circumcise himself but totally cut off his own manhood: Galatians 5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you. Paul talked about how some people came in to secretly spy on the liberty they enjoyed as Christians in Galatians 2 3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: 4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. In Phillipians 3, Paul used the strongest word ever to describe the sect of the circumcision: dogs 1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. Paul emphasized in Colosians 2 so many times the phrase “let no man…”; to drive home the point that people of the Judaistic religion must be resisted at all cost: 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using In verse 18, the apostle leaves a word for those who, like today, are always coming up with a new revelation of heaven and hell. He says it is the outcome of their fleshly minds. In Titus 1, Paul says the mouth of these Judaizers should be stopped 10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. Paul contended these men to the end. I have an intimation that the thorn in the flesh God gave Paul was the opposition to the gospel he was going to be preaching and these opposition, though from many sources, came primarily from the Judaizers of his time. |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by DrummaBoy(m): 5:34pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
I conclude this discuss (for now) with the topic itself: Modern Day Judaizers If any of us had lived in the time of Apostle Paul, there is likelihood we also would have opposed his teachings. That is why I think Peter said his teachings are difficult to understand. Take for example, the circumcision that he was so vehemently opposed to. God himself had given the ordinance of circumcision to Abraham before the coming of the law and had instructed that it was to last to all generations in Genesis 17: 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. 9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant. But here was Paul saying that anyone who allowed himself to be circumcised had fallen from grace. How then are we to reconcile Paul teachings with the whole of scripture: First we must understand that God in his wisdom chose Paul as an apostle (maybe in replacement of Judas) to propagate this gospel. Also, there was nothing Paul preached that the apostles who had witnessed the Lamb in the flesh did not know. That they did not preach it is another issue. And lastly, anyone who witnessed Paul’s ministry, the grace on it, the signs and wonders, and the sheer fact that God was with this man could not but agree that what he was teaching was sound doctrine. Today we have a whole lot of folks who are still opposing Paul, long after he has left. I came across one Femi Aribisala who feels that Pauls writings are not scripture but mere letters. Paul himself had warned that in the last days men would no longer endure sound doctrine. The reformation of the sixteenth century gained it strength from the writing of Paul the apostle – so that in Martin Luther and John Calvin, the Roman Catholic Church was confronting Paul again. Everywhere institutional church is created, there is a head on collision with Paul’s writings. Why? Probably because Paul’s teaching were not suited for organized church but for every day Christian living. For example, Paul’s writing did not support tithing. And tithing is the only means of supporting organized church today. No where in all his writing did Paul ask anyone to pay tithe to a church or to himself. But modern day Judaizer would have us believe that tithing is an ordinance of God. When they say pay your tithe, Malachi 3: 8-10 is quoted: 8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. 10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. If we assume the scripture quoted above was not addressed to Levites and Priest (though some of us contend it was) and actually take it as God’s word, how do we reconcile the above scripture with another already quoted above (Genesis 17) where God was saying that Circumcision was to be an eternal ordinance in Israel and anyone who doesn’t practice it would be cut off? The truth is that whether Malachi 3 is addressed to Levites or Israelites or Abraham does not matter; if the doctrine Paul preached made it clear that gentiles where not to be circumcised, it is easy to conclude that gentiles are not to pay tithe either. Now the tithe doctrine is even less arguable than circumcision even though both of them are pre-law and both of them were practiced by Abraham (By the way Abraham paid tithe only once). But tithing was never a subject for disputation in the time of Paul because most Jews of that time where not tithing. The tithe that God describes in Malachi, as well as other part of the Old Testament, was 10% of agricultural produce. And by the time of Jesus most Jews were not agriculturist so the tithe was not an issue. Even Jesus was never said to have tithed because Jesus was not a farmer but a carpenter. So Paul again finds himself contending modern day Judaizers who are bent on ensuring that redeemed gentiles pay tithes to established church institutions. Modern day Judaizer are also, always, dictating to their church members, the rules they must keep and not keep. Unfortunately the women folk, who have very little to say in church administration, are the ones that suffers the most. “You must not wear ear-rings”; “You must not wear trousers”; “You must not wear make up”; “You must not wear tight fitted clothing’s”. They could easily compare these rules and regulation to Colossians 2:20-22 to find out the scriptural basis of what they are doing. It does not end there. Modern day Judaizers have turned the church of God to their own by posting lists of things that make an individual a bona fide member of (their) church. Recently a prominent Pentecostal church, with a large mission base on Lagos-Ibadan express way announced to its members that anyone who doesn’t tithe would no longer enjoy the church support during wedding and other ceremonies. The core doctrine of modern day Judaizers is that church must regulate how its members live and behave: thus the need for the rules and regulations. If this is not done, church members will bring reproach to the organization or they will sin and loose their salvation. At the center of this thinking is ignorance of the doctrine of grace that Paul the apostle taught and lived. If this message is however shared with these people, they malign it and say people are being encouraged towards lawlessness. There are many ways to answer this but the best is to paint the picture of our Lord Himself. If Jesus, the owner of the Church, had such proprietary kind of mentality towards the church, he would not have left 11 unschooled fishermen to propagate his gospel after him. But the chief proponent of a gospel of grace that encourages freedom and trust in God, through the Holy Spirit, is Jesus Himself. He knew that days after his ascension the Holy Spirit will come and use mere, weak, infallible and untaught men to turn the world up side down for God. This is the sort of mentality the church should have: if men have been truly converted, the church should trust God to establish those men. The God that is able to save, is also able to keep safe: genuine believer cannot loose their salvation. This God is able to also justify, sanctify, and eventually glorify those he has saved. When the church takes up the duty that only God can do, they turn themselves into modern day Judaizers. |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by DrummaBoy(m): 5:35pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
You remember the above that I wrote dedicated to you, Bidam, sometimes this year. I hope you find the grace to read it and deliver yourself from modern day Judaism. |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by Nobody: 5:41pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
Hmmn..Pandora box don open.. Preacher drumma boy..Ok i give up..carry on with your preaching. |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by DrummaBoy(m): 6:14pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
Bidam: Hmmn..Pandora box don open.. 9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. - Isaiah 6 |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by Nobody: 6:49pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
Can u stick to the main argument and stop creating unnecessary diversion? No one is arguing about circumsicion here.It about tithing.The scripture you quoted out of context in phil. did not talk about tithing. Moreso Paul's argument was that circumsicion was not a requirement for salvation which was correct. I quoted where Paul brought alms to the temple in jerusalem after his conversion story and preaching to gentile nations. Whether it is tithe or not.atleast he brought it to a temple.This fact has thrown out your nonsense arguments that it was only farmers that bring tithes and offerings to the temple. You know my stand on tithing.I do not advocate mosaic tithing, neither do i practice it. As for the extrabiblical talk about titus destroying the temple,that one na your own cup of tea.I stick to what's in the bible,not extra additions. So as far as i am concerned,you have failed woefully in explaining the philipians scripture you quoted. If you insist that it was for circumcised folks,then note that you also are a dog because you are circumcised. |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by PastorKun(m): 7:30pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
Bidam: You are just blowing hot air all over the place.My interest was in the pauline epistle you quoted.We all know Paul was circumcised and to please the Jews he circumcised timothy. So your premise is weak. Do you have any evidence that Paul was a farmer before jumping into the daft conclusion that he "paid" tithes cause as far as the law was concerned only those who produced from the land were required to tithe. |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by Nobody: 7:41pm On Nov 05, 2013 |
Pastor Kun:All nation including the priests tithed in Malachi. Do pharisees tithe or not? |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by Image123(m): 2:06am On Nov 06, 2013 |
Pastor Kun: Hmmm, pulled right out of the nostrils i guess. What are the basis for this assumption, especially the bolded? |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by lastmessenger: 4:21am On Nov 06, 2013 |
A friend of mine needed 10k to settle some debt in school and i promised to give her the money.my friend believe in tithing but i dont.so i got paid for a job i did and the money was exactly 10k and i sent it to her.she desparetly needed the cash because time was due to settle the debt.she got the money and thanked me and went straight and settled her school debt. I called her and asked if she paid tithe on the money that i sent to her and she answered 'no' and that she forgot.she said she would have paid if she remembered and i told her it means the money will not be enough to settle her debt and she said she believe God would have made a way.i simply asked her if it is not God that brought the 10k in the first place and she agreed it is God. i said if God brought 10k for u to use and settle ur debt why do u think He want u to pay him tithe of 1k and reduce the money.i also told her that if i had paid tithe on the 10k that i would have sent her 9k and by the time she pay her own tithe she would be left with 8k. You see this is the burden that christ released us from when he died and ressurrected.i didnt worry about the devourer or the curse and that is why i gave a needy friend my money.GOD new what he meant when He said Christ has released us from the curse of the law being made a curse for us.indeed the law is a curse and am happy to be released from it and no man no matter how big he or she is will entagle me with the law My church preach tithe and i dont care because i know better.am still facing intimidations of devourer and curse in church but i dont care because i know that all those devourer ish is nothing but a hogwash.if all Abraham did is an example for us to follow then i think we are in trouble but i thank God it is not so. The idea behind the topic as i understand it is not to descourage people from giving money to church but all the op is trying to do is to release people from guilt and bondage.christains should be cheerful givers and not fearful givers.we should give not just to the church but to those in need.infact there is a special reward to those who remember the poor in their giving.give 1% or 10% or 20% or 50% etc as the spirit leads you and do it with joy but remember that he which sow bountifully shall reap bountifully. I think i will stop here.i just hope i made some sense.GOD BLESS U ALL 3 Likes |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by PastorKun(m): 6:08am On Nov 06, 2013 |
Image123: Are you claiming not to be aware of God's exact instructions on tithing? |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by Candour(m): 7:53am On Nov 06, 2013 |
lastmessenger: A friend of mine needed 10k to settle some debt in school and i promised to give her the money.my friend believe in tithing but i dont.so i got paid for a job i did and the money was exactly 10k and i sent it to her.she desparetly needed the cash because time was due to settle the debt.she got the money and thanked me and went straight and settled her school debt. @the bolded. pro tithers will want to have you believe the OP is asking people not to give again but its not true. Christians are enjoined to give particularly to the needy Christians first then to other needy people. We are expected to favour the righteous causes of our churches or fellowships. Not to be guilt-ed into doing it and surely not to support flamboyance or the conspicuous consumption on display in the religious empires we have today. God bless you my bro. You made a lot of sense. |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by Alwaystrue(f): 8:15am On Nov 06, 2013 |
@lastmessenger, That is why people need to study their bible more and gain understanding. She received money to pay for a debt, can she give out of the money as a gift to the poor? The money is not even hers. How can she tithe on money given to her to pay her debt, to pay for her school fees? This is common sense. This is not money she worked for, neither is it dash money to do what she wants with it. Let people rightly divide the word and they will not see things as 'burdens'. It is obvious you do not know that the people here see their giving as giving to man and many ave called their pastors 'thieving' (any pastor who collects tithes). I keep wondering why they never mention offering for offering was also regulated to what is expected even in the OT. If they see giving offering as not wrong but tithe is to man then that means their giving in church is to man. For we give with faith and we give to God but all giving is used by man in this world. Giving to poor too. Lolz. It is their mouth sha, they will account for it themselves. God expects people to give of what they have not what they do not have or own. Jesus came to free us from the shackles of sins penalties, heal us and make us right with God by Faith. It is laughable seeing people say their 100% is God's yet believe Jesus 'saved' them from tithe calling it their idea of part of 'finished work', just so petty thinking. 2 Likes |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by Image123(m): 8:16am On Nov 06, 2013 |
lastmessenger: A friend of mine needed 10k to settle some debt in school and i promised to give her the money.my friend believe in tithing but i dont.so i got paid for a job i did and the money was exactly 10k and i sent it to her.she desparetly needed the cash because time was due to settle the debt.she got the money and thanked me and went straight and settled her school debt. You made an analogy, the devil also makes good ones all the time. Your friend does not need to tithe a debt BTW. And tithing is also a form of giving. 2 Likes |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by Image123(m): 8:23am On Nov 06, 2013 |
Pastor Kun: The Bible does not say ONLY those who produce from the land are to tithe, whatever that means. It says the whole nation was expected to tithe and claimed that those who did not were robbing God. Abraham gave a tithe of all, so did Jacob and so did the pharisee Jesus spoke of. 1 Like |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by lastmessenger: 9:52am On Nov 06, 2013 |
Alwaystrue: @lastmessenger,As the original owner the cash pro tithers expect me to tithe and that alone would have reduced the money but i didnt tithe and i made someone happy. my rightous belief and understanding is that the money i give away was not just given to a friend but was given to God and so i have done more than tithing and that is what i personally advocate(cheerful giving anywhere any time be it a church, a person or any rightous cause) you said something about the fact that people believe that giving tithe is giving to man and giving offering is giving to God.well i have to say that both giving is giving to God but tithing is giving to God in a wrong(my opinion) way because it is forced on you and they do so much manipulation to make sure u feel guilty and pay it(which is very wrong). The example of giving is found in the book acts where they sold their property and laid it on the apostles feet.Ananais and the wife died not because they didnt give all but because they lied.paul in one of his books(i cant remember which) told the apostles that one the first day of the week that each man should set aside an amount to give based on how he is led(he didnt put guilt in anybody).tithing is a dead law and has been done away with on the day christ ressurrected and let me tell you i have seen tithers having the opposite of the reward just because they put their faith in the wrong thing eg myself until i stopped. I use to be a faithful tither until a particular day.i was listening to my mentor in the lord.this pastor was the one whose preaching got my faith strong and made me hunger for the word.so he said that he doesnt believe in tithing and i was like 'blasphemy' because he didnt explain it and i have been preaching tithing in Rccg.but because of his impact in my life i decided to find out the truth.so i red my bible and studied tithing,went to internet red the opinion of people and i made my conclusion that tithing is hogwash.i didnt stop tithing because i dont like giving away my money but because i was made to put my faith in the wrong place and thing by telling me that tithing is a prosperity principle. only one thing is needed ie faith in God. let me tell why it is hard for people to believe that tithing is a hogwash.it means that the Dr David Oyedopo,Pastor Chris(my pastor),Adeboye and all the big names with big churches are telling lies.we see them as examples and how can they tell us lies.we see the miracles and we say how can they tell us something that is not true.you see they may not know that they are teaching the wrong thing.my pastor during one of the financial conventions said that u can give yourself out(with money) of a bonding sin you have been struggling with and people seem to be convinced but i know thats not realy the scripture.you cant move fresh to achieve a spiritual matter.i love my pastor chris and i am not leaving him because he said a few wrong thing |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by Alwaystrue(f): 10:38am On Nov 06, 2013 |
lastmessenger: @lastmessenger, Tithing is not forced on you, neither is any giving. They are all commands of God. Giving to the poor is not forced on you either (I hope you know there are lots of bible passages against people who refuse to give to the poor). So if you have to wait to be told to tithe or do any giving at all since the bible says it already and you claim 'it is forced' that is only your own understanding. Try not to calculate your giving as 'more than tithe' for you do not believe in it in the first place, it is like you just want to prove you give 'more than tithe'. Do not feel threatened whatever decision you make. God has the final say. Tithers who understand tithing give tithe, offerings, alms, donations to the needy, care for family as all are giving. If you have no issues with offerings it is hypocrisy to have with tithe. And you can choose not to do either, it is your choice. What you see as forced and a burden, others see as a blessing and thanking God for what He has already given them. Proof they are blessed for they can even give. And God has even added blessings to obeying this command. So it is a continuous cylce of giving and receiving to give. Jesus (God in the flesh) said tithing should continue but we should love, have faith and mercy. Jesus did not come to 'save' anyone from any good giving but showed us how to give with the right heart. Paul affirmed tithe and offering in I Cor. 9:13-14. He simply refused to take it because of people questioning him and so no man will make his glorying void. Please take time to study yourself why the people were asked to keep in store. It was for the poor saints in Jerusalem due to the famine, who were giving their all, and Paul said God is not mocked, He that sows little reaps little and vice versa but give as your purpose in your heart. That part is never quoted because it is nicer to hear 'as you purpose'. So please give as your purpose, there is no issue. Others can purpose to give their tithe as well. Doing it cheerfully and with the right heart. Your pastor (or any other) is not the final say on the word of God, you are to go and confirm it with the word as the bereans went to confirm Paul's words with the scripture. I find it strange that once pastors are mentioned it relates to Bishop Oyedepo or Pastor Adeboye as if they are the only pastors in Nigeria. Yes, whatever they preach should be checked in God's word like a berean. God did not institute tithe, offering, alms as a gambling tool or a means for a quick buck. It is acknowledging Him in Faith for what He has given like Abel and Abraham did and is received by men for His work. They both had Faith and that is what led to their actions not the other way round. If you cannot understand that, it is best to stop here as you said. 2 Likes |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by Candour(m): 11:00am On Nov 06, 2013 |
Behold an explanation of tithe that Pastors will not have you see. Ask a bible teacher to explain it to you if they can. This is the practice Malachi was trying to remind Israelites of in Mal 3:8-11. If you want to pay tithe today, These verses below remains the true and only guideline. Any other format is a lie and a fraud.
Behold a lesson on tithes by a well known pastor respected and loved by many. It proves unequivocally that tithe is of the law laid down in Deut 14:22-29, Num 18:21-32 and Nehemiah 10:37-39. Any assertion to the contrary is outright dishonesty and calculated to misleading innocent and naive Christians.
Christians give freely and cheerfully with no prescribed percentages. 'Every man as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give.....'. If you decide to give everything you own, its your choice. It wont make God love you more. If you dont give too, its your choice, it wont make God love you less. God doesn't need your money......your needy neighbor does so pls give to him. Be not deceived. Start reading your bibles. 3 Likes |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by lastmessenger: 12:51pm On Nov 06, 2013 |
The major problem of people in this country is crowd mentality.people hate someone with a different opinion and they label him a rebel without having a close consideration on why the person is having a different opinion.we like public opinion.only few people change things in this world and the rest follow like sheep.things are changing as years goes by and infact marthin luther had to steal the new testament and translated it to german language and just because of people like him we all can read the bible today and make arguement on this forum. On this tithe issue i believe that with time a change will come. with pastor bankie(my mentor) taking a stand against it eventhough he owns a radio ministry and need money to finance it and you pastor kun doing what you are doing here on nairaland and others that are of the same opinion including myself i believe that we would bring enlightenment to christains and liberate from the bondage of the law and judaism.together we would make people to give with a motive of love and not that of give and recieve.we would liberate them from the fear of the curse and devourer. Never give up brothers for God is with us and in us 1 Like |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by Zikkyy(m): 1:33pm On Nov 06, 2013 |
Alwaystrue: you need to review this ya theory on giving and receiving (sowing & reaping). the poor saints in Jerusalem gave their all, how come they had to rely on support? what happened to their harvest after sowing so much? |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by Zikkyy(m): 1:50pm On Nov 06, 2013 |
Alwaystrue: This is false teaching. Tithe, whether of God or of pastor does not consider the purpose/use of the harvest (God's tithe), income/cash in-flows (Pastoral tithe). God said the Israelite must tithe their harvest of agric produce even if they end up using the remaining 90% to pay debt. Pastors say you must tithe all forms of cash inflows, salary, revenue from business, gifts or even allowances (a.k.a pocket money). see joagbaje for additional information/clarification. Alwaystrue: Na wa for you o! you dey apply common sense for tithe matter  even bidam will disagree on the use of common sense. |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by Image123(m): 11:25pm On Nov 07, 2013 |
Candour: Behold an explanation of tithe that Pastors will not have you see. Ask a bible teacher to explain it to you if they can. This is the practice Malachi was trying to remind Israelites of in Mal 3:8-11. If you want to pay tithe today, These verses below remains the true and only guideline. Any other format is a lie and a fraud.This is either ignorance or sheer dishonesty. Mal 3:8-11 is not referring to Deut 14:22-29. Deut 14:22-29 talks about the tithe eaten by the individual and of the tithe given at home every three years. Malachi talks of the tithe brought to the storehouse in the temple. That is, brought and given to the temple workers or what is called the priesthood. You cannot quote a passage on two types of tithe and claim that These verses below remains the true and only guideline. Any other format is a lie and a fraud. Talking boldly and charismatically or spamming does not equal to truth. 1 Like |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by Image123(m): 11:29pm On Nov 07, 2013 |
lastmessenger: The major problem of people in this country is crowd mentality.people hate someone with a different opinion and they label him a rebel without having a close consideration on why the person is having a different opinion.we like public opinion only few people change things in this world and the rest follow like sheep.things are changing as years goes by and infact marthin luther had to steal the new testament and translated it to german language and just because of people like him we all can read the bible today and make arguement on this forum. Eeyah, many people did not agree with or feel joy by this your post. The post is actually like a boomerang, especially the bolded. |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by Joagbaje(m): 6:52am On Nov 08, 2013 |
Image123: This manipulation has been on for years I wonder why , despite all the proof we gave from scriptures to clarify the difference. . |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by Candour(m): 7:38am On Nov 08, 2013 |
Image123: You're the one talking ignorantly or dishonestly here my bro. Deut 14-28-29 'At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, a[b]nd shalt lay it up within thy gates[/b]: [29] And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.' When this command was given, God expressly stated that the tither should keep this particular tithe in storage at his house and distribute to the LEVITE, STRANGER, FATHERLESS and WIDOW that are around him. As at the time Solomon built the temple, this was still the practice. However by the time of Hezekiah, the people had developed an apathy to the law completely because of the idolatrous kings they'd had so they were neglecting the law including tithing. This made Hezekiah to moot the idea of storehouses for tithes for the very first time in the history of Isreal thereby modifying the law of Moses(2 Chr 31:11-12) start from verse 4 to get full gist. This is the case except you want to tell us Hezekiah instituted a different tithe from Mosaic tithes all by himself. This became the new practice for the triennial tithe and it carried over into the new Temple after the return from exile in Babylon Neh 10:37-38 'And that we should bring the first fruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the CHAMBERS of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the LEVITES, that the same LEVITES might have the TITHES in all the cities of our TILLAGE.38.And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the CHAMBERS, into the treasure house' This was what Malachi refered to and it started in Deut 14:28-29. You can even see in the reference that tithes only come from the cities of TILLAGE(i trust you know tillage refers to land cultivation?), in other words, farming cities. This proves again that tithes only come from farm produce. You cannot quote a passage on two types of tithe and claim that These verses below remains the true and only guideline. Any other format is a lie and a fraud. Oya go ahead and show us from the bible what other format was instituted by God for the administration of Tithes. I'm waiting bro. Open your bible and show us how else God wants tithe administered other than the format in Deut 14:22-29. Talking boldly and charismatically or spamming does not equal to truth. You're the one giving me unsolicited compliments. I didn't ask for it neither do i need it. It's the business men on pulpits that equate boldness and charisma to the calling of God. I wish you could start telling them this truth. Maybe if i was crooked like them, i could have jumped on this your statement and go register a church. Naive and greedy people will surely find their way there for money doubling and i'll come here mouthing testimonies of how serving God translates into wealth untold. The truth is truth whether spoken by a weakling or a general. All i'm doing here is telling the truth and i'll keep telling it whether you call it spamming or not 2 Likes |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by Candour(m): 7:42am On Nov 08, 2013 |
Joagbaje: You're right. The manipulation by spiritual businessmen has been on for years. The format for Levitical tithe administration is reproduced below Deut 14-28-29 'At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, a[b]nd shalt lay it up within thy gates[/b]: [29] And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.' This is what God instituted. The Levite, Fatherless, Stranger and the widow MUST be fed from it. Any other practice remains a fraud. |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by lastmessenger: 8:46am On Nov 08, 2013 |
Image123:Only you understand what you are up to and why what i wrote is a boomerang.believe it or not, few people change things on this earth and rest are led like sheep.there is nothing wrong with being led like a sheep if that is someones choice.i dont have problem if u are fan of 10% giving and of them that preach it.my only problem is that people should be made to know the truth to liberate them from their fears. Like i said before,i am a christembassy member and pastor chris is my pastor and he inspires me alot but that doesnt mean everything he say is what i swallow.even paul said in one of his letters that we know in part and that we see through a dark glass.dont ever think these men we look upto cannot make mistakes.infact the Thessalonians church having heard paul preach went back to search the scripture, making judgement between what paul preached and the scriptures.thats who we are supposed to be and not to totally depend on what somebody is saying on the pulpit.all i am saying is this Oyedepo can be wrong,Pastor Chris can be wrong,Adeboye can be wrong.you will argue with me that they are getting result from what they are preaching on tithe,well anybody can get result from doing what he is doing(ask the Juju priest and they will tell their result).Research carried out showed that only 14% of American christains gave a little above 10% of their income(after all the shouting and preaching on tithing). My personal convinction is that the church will experience trememdous properity if they will drop this judaism practice called tithe.it is like a cancer and it is limiting us from enjoying the full blessings from God. There is a book on the internet that i want u to read with an open mind.after reading the book and you feel that tithing is still ok for u then so be it.cheek this site www.tekoapublishing.com/books/tithing |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by Zikkyy(m): 8:53am On Nov 08, 2013 |
Neh 10:37-38 'And that we should bring the first fruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the CHAMBERS of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the LEVITES, that the same LEVITES might have the TITHES in all the cities of our TILLAGE.38.And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the CHAMBERS, into the treasure house' Candour: This was the tithing promise made by the Israelite (in compliance with the law). This is something for joagbaje to consider. The jews were never required to tithe cash, it was always about agric produce. 3 Likes |
| Re: The truth your pastor would not tell you about tithes by Image123(m): 5:58pm On Nov 12, 2013 |
Candour:Another attempt to inject spurious tales into truth. We are aware of, teach and do not contest what you wrote above. The spurious tales come in from the part i have colored green. What on earth is the triennial tithe? Hope it's not another bogus phrase to divert and obfuscate issues? Neh 10:37-38There is no change whatsoever as you insinuated. The people of Nehemiah's time determined to obey the Word as it was commanded during the time of Moses, they did not modify it. i do not know why you have that idea that they modified it. Neh 10:29 They cleaved to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes; You can even see in the reference that tithes only come from the cities of TILLAGE(i trust you know tillage refers to land cultivation?), in other words, farming cities. This proves again that tithes only come from farm produce.No, there is no such thing seen in the reference. It seems you spuriously see the word "ONLY" in every tithe passage. Here is the phrase on tithes from the passage again. Try to note that there is nothing like ONLY in that reference. "the TITHES in all the cities of our TILLAGE.38.And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God" Oya go ahead and show us from the bible what other format was instituted by God for the administration of Tithes. I'm waiting bro. Open your bible and show us how else God wants tithe administered other than the format in Deut 14:22-29.Deut 14:22-29 is one of the last passages that makes direct reference to tithe in the five books of Moses. Deuteronomy BTW is more of a rehash and summary of what has been previously said. Tithe was spoken of directly in Genesis, Leviticus and Numbers. In each of this books, the idea and the tithe talked about is the one that goes to the priest or the minister in the temple. It is in Deuteronomy that the other two popular tithes are talked of. Everybody already knew the MAIN tithe, that is, the 10% that leaves the individual's custody and goes into the minister's custody. Deut 14:22-29. and i think chapter 12 introduces two OTHER ones. Of this two, one is the one that you spend on yourself, family and neighbour levites IN Jerusalem or Shiloh annually as was supposed to be the case. The second of this other two is the one done once in three years AT home. These two are different from the common or main one that is given to the minister, which they store in the chamber or storehouse or whatever name. These two are what Deut 14:22-29 talks about in addition to the main one generally known. The tithe of Abraham and Jacob was not in this exact format and God accepted it. This is so plain but i expect your proud self to twist and turn yet. You're the one giving me unsolicited compliments. I didn't ask for it neither do i need it. It's the business men on pulpits that equate boldness and charisma to the calling of God. I wish you could start telling them this truth. Maybe if i was crooked like them, i could have jumped on this your statement and go register a church. Naive and greedy people will surely find their way there for money doubling and i'll come here mouthing testimonies of how serving God translates into wealth untold.The forum rules call it spamming, not me. A christian should be responsible enough as to abide by common rules governing where he operates. 1 Like |
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