debosky:

Do those that believe he is God dispute that he is the Son of God?

Those that believe Jesus is god also believe he is the son of god, but that is NOT the only belief christians hold, many others believe he is God at the same time god's son. Those that believe he is god believe he is god's son at the same time, while those that do not believe he exist as a separate and different entity as god. if you don't understand the difference then I can't help you. That is a MAJOR difference, to claim it is not is to tell lies, simple. . .

All this hot air and you can't answer a simple question - ALL Christians believe Jesus is the only begotten Son of God - YES OR NO?

Leave the other side issues and let's have a logical, progressive discussion or are atheists only comfortable in conflating issues and obfuscating?

One second you talk about 'basic nature', the next you jump to 'exact nature' are you confused? The basic nature of Jesus is that he is the only begotten Son of God and that is what matters.

What is the universally acceptable christian doctrine on the nature of Jesus?. . .Is he god's son and god at the same time or is he a different and a separate entity from god? What is the universally acceptable christian doctrine on that?. . .

They all agree that Jesus saves - YES OR NO? The substance is that Jesus saves those that believe in him - the role of works is secondary and is a minor detail. Only those that first believe that Jesus saves can even begin to have a discussion about the role of works.

NOT true, they do NOT all agree that Jesus saves all those that believe in him, to claim they do is to tell lies, simple. . .Some believe that Jesus save those that believe in him and do good works, while other believe that Jesus save those who believe in him regardless of the work they do. . .To some believing that Jesus saves alone without good works will lead you to hell, while others only believe that beliving in him and his saving abilities without works is enough. . .This has lead to many divisions and break aways in many churches. To claim that there is a universal tenet is to tell lies. . .Simple. . .

Again, this is a false dichotomy - there were Christians before the 66/66+ books of the bible were compiled - Christianity did not begin when the bible was compiled. Since those Christians who lived before the time of the bible's compilation were legitimately Christians, then the logical conclusion is that the number of books is largely irrelevant and is a minor side issue when we talk a[b]bout the central tenets of Christian faith[/b]

What is the central universally acceptable tenet of the chriatian faith?. . .NO such thing exist. . .

That is the individual prerogative - the fact remains that the central tenet is that God created the universe, not the mechanism or timing of this creation. That human beings divide and separate on these issues does not alter the central/primary tenet which is held by all Christians as true.

That is your own opinion, to others it is central to their christian faith and they have tied it to their salvation, I have told you that people here on nairaland like oladegbuu and some others who I have seen have clearly stated that believing that the earth is less than 10,000 years old is tied to your salvation. . .You can not believe in the bible and Jesus and believe that the earth is millions of years old. . .Many YEC hold that view, visit their websites and see for yourself. . .How the earth was created and when it was created is a MAJOR issue to many christians, to say it is not is to lie. . .Movements have been formed based on such disagreements, we now have the young earth creationist, old earth creationist and the theistic evolutionist all based on this MAJOR and IMPORTANT disagreements. . . .Saying it is not a MAJOR issue is pure lies. . .

The central tenet is the existence of hell as a place of punishment/separation from God. As I said before, the duration or mechanism of hell isn't the central tenet.

You just keep dancing all over yourself. . .What is the central and universally acceptable christian doctorine on hell?. . .Punishment and separation from god ARE NOT the same, while some believe that hell is a place of eternal punishment in fire others believe it is simply a state of eternal separation form god. The two are NOT the same, to say other wise is to tell lies. . .Simple. . .

The central tenet is that Jesus saves, No one - whether they believe works 'matter' or not - disputes that Jesus is the necessary element to be saved.

Other believe that works is what matters while others believe otherwise, I repeat again it is is NOT a MAJOR issue as you are trying to have us believe, it will NOT lead to break away and major divisions as we see all around us. . .I repeat again , what does a christian need to do to gain salvation, does he need to believe that he is saved under Jesus alone, or does he need to hold that believe and do good works as well? What is the central christian tenet with regards to salvation can be achieved?

mazaje: More on self projection as god. . .


The bible contains a lot of paradoxical statements, conflicting accounts that cannot be unraveled and even a formal contradiction or two. It also has commands that the Christian does not wish to obey and descriptions of God that the Christian does not want to worship.

What each Christian is telling you, though, in her or his own way, is that he or she is god. Still, Christians can’t reject the Bible entirely. That would be throwing out the baby Jesus with the holy water. The Bible is the only reason to believe certain things they do hold dear. So, in one way or another, they reject what they don’t like.

Some Christians will dismiss more of the Bible, others less. Some in pious sounding ways, and others more flagrantly. The better educated, more articulate Christians might perform mental genuflections to explain biblical contradictions and write grand systematic theologies to describe their gods, while the uneducated ones might tell you only what they feel in their hearts and the religious yuppies will tell you what meaning they take from the Bible. What each Christian is telling you, though, in her or his own way, is that he or she is god.

The result is a rank and unique pride that claims a divine stamp of approval upon the Christian’s own life, while rejecting both all of the Bible that doesn’t appeal to her or his liking and the gods constructed by other Christians, reflecting other parts of the bible.

It’s an arrogant syncretism of life and religion that we call Self-Projection as God (SPAG).

For a practical demonstration, just pick a pair of contrary or contradictory Bible verses that are on either side of a sensitive issue and ask a Christian what she or he thinks about them. The better you know the Bible and the Christian, the easier it will be to pick the appropriately contrary verses, but the result will always be the same: The Christian will start rationalizing and explaining the contradiction in a way that accommodates them to his or her own life.

Understand that we’re not merely intending to demonstrate simply that the Bible is an inconsistent hodgepodge of ancient mythology and antiquated ethics rife with error. That’s obvious and it’s not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is that because the Bible is such mishmash, SPAG is the necessary and universal form of Christianity in practice, an absolute identity: All Christianity is Self-Projection as God.

Link

wrong..the bible contains timeless truths and principles that have stood the test of time and is the mostly read book through out the universe..the reason it can't be unravelled by you is because it is hidden from you..u read it like a story book...we read it with the help of the Holy Spirit...we might disagree on some issues but the central core is Jesus Christ. Learned philosopers,astrologers,greeks,epicureans,scientist have come to the realisation and conclusion that the Bible is indeed the Book of all books..though made by an imperfect man..it has never lost Spiritual significance..it has lead many into a better understanding and a fuller knowledge of Jesus Christ the incarnate Word, of whom the scriptures so faithfully testify..Thank you.

mazaje:

This is your own personal interpretation of the verse, as most of what you have written here does NOT appear in the verse you quoted, if you want to quote what the bible says just quote it, i do not need your personal opinion or interpretation of what the bible says. . . .Does this not contradict your statement that if you follow Jesus you can't be wrong?. . .You stared by asking useless questions. . .I made very simple statements and you started with asking useless question, now that you have no where to go you are here quoting biblical passages for me. . .The reality is that there is NO universally acceptable christian doctrine, and people ONLY self project themselves as god all the time. . .

Actually I quoted it verbatim. Go read it.

Bidam: wrong..the bible contains timeless truths and principles that have stood the test of time and is the mostly read book through out the universe..the reason it can't be unravelled by you is because it is hidden from you..u read it like a story book...we read it with the help of the Holy Spirit...we might disagree on some issues but the central core is Jesus Christ. Learned philosopers,astrologers,greeks,epicureans,scientist have come to the realisation and conclusion that the[b] Bible is indeed the Book of all books[/b]..though made by an imperfect man..it has never lost Spiritual significance..it has lead many into a better understanding and a fuller knowledge of Jesus Christ the incarnate Word, of whom the scriptures so faithfully testify..Thank you.

The bible contains subjective "timeless truths and principles" that have stood the test of time, just like the koran and the hindu verdes. . .Your claim that learned philosophers, astrologers, greeks, scientist have come to the realization and conclusion that the bible is indeed the book of all books remains a SHAMELESS LIE. . .

mazaje:

Those that believe Jesus is god also believe he is the son of god, but that is NOT the only belief christians hold, many others believe he is God at the same time god's son. Those that believe he is god believe he is god's son at the same time, while those that do not believe he exist as a separate and different entity as god. if you don't understand the difference then I can't help you. That is a MAJOR difference, to claim it is not is to tell lies, simple. . .

So you still can't answer yes or no? The fact is all Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God - that makes it UNIVERSAL. Whatever else they believe IN ADDITION to this UNIVERSAL tenet is secondary.

If you show me one Christian that doesn't believe Jesus is the Son of God, then we can start from there, else admit failure!

What is the universally acceptable christian doctrine on the nature of Jesus?. . .Is he god's son and god at the same time or is he a different and a separate entity from god? What is the universally acceptable christian doctrine on that?. . .

The universally acceptable doctrine is that he is the Son of God - anything else is secondary. Show me a Christian that disputes this.

NOT true, they do NOT all agree that Jesus saves all those that believe in him, to claim they do is to tell lies, simple. . .Some believe that Jesus save those that believe in him and do good works, while other believe that Jesus save those who believe in him regardless of the work they do. . .To some believing that Jesus saves alone without good works will lead you to hell, while others only believe that beliving in him and his saving abilities without works is enough. . .This has lead to many divisions and break aways in many churches. To claim that there is a universal tenet is to tell lies. . .Simple. . .

In all the cases you've stated, ALL believe Jesus saves - that is the universal principle. Whether there are other beliefs IN ADDITION to this UNIVERSAL principle is secondary. Show me a Christian that doesn't believe Jesus saves or keep schtum!

That is your own opinion, to others it is central to their christian faith and they have tied it to their salvation, I have told you that people here on nairaland like oladegbuu and some others who I have seen have clearly stated that believing that the earth is less than 10,000 years old is tied to your salvation. . .You can not believe in the bible and Jesus and believe that the earth is millions of years old. . .Many YEC hold that view, visit their websites and see for yourself. . .How the earth was created and when it was created is a MAJOR issue to many christians, to say it is not is to lie. . .Movements have been formed based on such disagreements, we now have the young earth creationist, old earth creationist and the theistic evolutionist all based on this MAJOR and IMPORTANT disagreements. . . .Saying it is not a MAJOR issue is pure lies. . .

Movements have been created on the fact that some people being blonde while others being brunette - does that change the universal principle that they all have hair? There are differences in opinion no doubt, but the fundamental belief is that God created the universe and that is a UNIVERSAL Christian belief.

Some people may regard it as a 'major' issue, but again, that doesn't change the basic/fundamental tenet that God created the universe, regardless of different opinions on how long ago he did it.

You just keep dancing all over yourself. . .What is the central and universally acceptable christian doctorine on hell?. . .Punishment and separation from god ARE NOT the same, while some believe that hell is a place of eternal punishment in fire others believe it is simply a state of eternal separation form god. The two are NOT the same, to say other wise is to tell lies. . .Simple. . .

The universal doctrine on hell is that it exists. If that's not universal, then what would you call it?

Other believe that works is what matters while others believe otherwise, I repeat again it is is NOT a MAJOR issue as you are trying to have us believe, it will NOT lead to break away and major divisions as we see all around us. . .I repeat again , what does a christian need to do to gain salvation, does he need to believe that he is saved under Jesus alone, or does he need to hold that believe and do good works as well? What is the central christian tenet with regards to salvation can be achieved?

People have divided over the most minor of issues, so again that is not the subject of discourse. The central tenet remains that you cannot be saved without Jesus.

debosky:

So you still can't answer yes or no? The fact is all Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God - that makes it UNIVERSAL. Whatever else they believe IN ADDITION to this UNIVERSAL tenet is secondary.

If you show me one Christian that doesn't believe Jesus is the Son of God, then we can start from there, else admit failure!

The answer is there is NO universally acceptable nature on who Jesus is. . .That he is the son of god is just ONE of his nature, others also believe he is god at the same time. . .Do ALL christians world wide believe that Jesus is ONLY the son of god alone?. . .

The universally acceptable doctrine is that he is the Son of God - anything else is secondary. Show me a Christian that disputes this.

Again do all christians believe that he is the son of God alone?. . .That is what I am getting at his basic nature is NOT accepted by all christians, some believe he is the son of god others believe he is god himself. . .Do you deny that fact?. . .

In all the cases you've stated, ALL believe Jesus saves - that is the universal principle. Whether there are other beliefs IN ADDITION to this UNIVERSAL principle is secondary. Show me a Christian that doesn't believe Jesus saves or keep schtum!

The central point I was making is that christians self project themselves as god and as such always try to push their own personal interpretation and opinion on others and claim it is that of god. They do that ALL of the time. . .If it is as easy as you are saying it is then you should be able to give me the central christian doctrine on how to achieve salvation. Saying that Jesus saves is NOT how to achieve salvation, I asked you SPECIFICALLY to tell me the central and universal christian doctrine on how to achieve salvation. . .

Movements have been created on the fact that some people being blonde while others being brunette - does that change the universal principle that they all have hair? There are differences in opinion no doubt, but the fundamental belief is that God created the universe and that is a UNIVERSAL Christian belief.

What exactly are you on about?. . .I initially stated that christians ALWAYS self project themselves as god and that always lead to divisions. If there is a central doctrine that is acceptable by all then where will the disagreements spring up from?. . .You are just trying to make light of the entire situation. . .

Some people may regard it as a 'major' issue, but again, that doesn't change the basic/fundamental tenet that God created the universe, regardless of different opinions on how long ago he did it.

It is a major issue that has always lead to divisions. . .

The universal doctrine on hell is that it exists. If that's not universal, then what would you call it?

Exist as what?. . .

People have divided over the most minor of issues, so again that is not the subject of discourse. The central tenet remains that you cannot be saved without Jesus.

I am not asking if you will be saved by Jesus or not. . .What can you do to be saved is what I am asking?. . .

mazaje:
I am not asking if you will be saved by Jesus or not. . .What can you do to be saved is what I am asking?. . .

There is nothing you can possibly do to be saved. Salvation is a gift

Mr_Anony:
There is nothing you can possibly do to be saved. Salvation is a gift

How do you receive that gift?

mazaje:

The answer is there is NO universally acceptable nature on who Jesus is. . .That he is the son of god is just ONE of his nature, others also believe he is god at the same time. . .Do ALL christians world wide believe that Jesus is ONLY the son of god alone?. . .

It's just one? Do ALL Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God? Yes or No.

Again do all christians believe that he is the son of God alone?. . .That is what I am getting at his basic nature is NOT accepted by all christians, some believe he is the son of god others believe he is god himself. . .Do you deny that fact?. . .

I have given you the central tenet - that there are secondary beliefs are just that - secondary.

The central point I was making is that christians self project themselves as god and as such always try to push their own personal interpretation and opinion on others and claim it is that of god. They do that ALL of the time. . .If it is as easy as you are saying it is then you should be able to give me the central christian doctrine on how to achieve salvation. Saying that Jesus saves is NOT how to achieve salvation, I asked you SPECIFICALLY to tell me the central and universal christian doctrine on how to achieve salvation. . .

The central tenet is through Jesus. Simple.

What exactly are you on about?. . .I initially stated that christians ALWAYS self project themselves as god and that always lead to divisions. If there is a central doctrine that is acceptable by all then where will the disagreements spring up from?. . .You are just trying to make light of the entire situation. . .

Disagreements come from other issues, not the central tenets. I agree that individuals may lay greater emphasis on these lesser issues than is necessary, but that doesn't transform them into central tenets. I am only making light of your obfuscation and twisting and turning - I have stated the central tenets, but you want to extend into secondary issues. That is what amuses me - your inability to distinguish between a primary/fundamental belief and secondary/minor differences of opinion.

It is a major issue that has always lead to divisions. . .

That it leads to divisions doesn't make it a central tenet - or is this simple fact lost on you?

Exist as what?. . .

The central tenet is its existence. Simple.

I am not asking if you will be saved by Jesus or not. . .What can you do to be saved is what I am asking?. . .

So you agree that ALL Christians regard faith in Jesus as a requirement to be saved? You'll get there slowly.

debosky: . . . . So you agree that ALL Christians require Jesus to be saved?

This phrasing is a bit 'funny'.

Enigma:

This phrasing is a bit 'funny'.

I agree

debosky:

It's just one? Do ALL Christians believe Jesus is the Son of God? Yes or No.

What is the universally acceptable christian doctrine on the nature of Jesus?

I have given you the central tenet - that there are secondary beliefs are just that - secondary.

And what is the central tenet? That he is the son of God alone?. . .If that is your answer then it is FALSE, many believe he is god and the son of god at the SAME time. . .That is the fact of the matter. . .

The central tenet is through Jesus. Simple.

I am NOT asking you the question you are answering, I asked you SPECIFICALLY to tell me the central and universal christian doctrine on how to achieve salvation. . .

Disagreements come from other issues, not the central tenets. I agree that individuals may lay greater emphasis on these lesser issues than is necessary, but that doesn't transform them into central tenets.

I am not even talking about them being the central tenets. . .I am talking about the divisions that exist and how it is caused, and you are busy talking about central tenets as if it has to do with anything. . .What is the central and universal christian tenet on tithe for example?. . .I am talking about the disagreements that exist because people always chose to self project themselves as god but you keep talking about things I am not even discussing. . .

The central tenet is its existence. Simple.

It exist as what?. . .A house or a hotel or what?. . .

So you agree that ALL Christians require Jesus to be saved?

I am not even talking about that. . .What does a christian need to do to achvieve salvation through Jesus?. . .What is the universal christian doctrine on how salvation can be achieved through Jesus?

personaldomest: If you look in the Bible, there are an amazing number of people that God wants his followers to murder. For example, in Exodus 35:2 God lays down this commandment:

For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.
Think about that how many people work on the Sabbath -- all the employees of Wal-Mart, Target, Best Buy, Home Depot, Linnens & things, grocery stores, convenience stores, power plants, airlines, hospitals, emergency services and on and on and on. Don't rabbis, priests and preachers work on the Sabbath? God wants all of them dead.
Then look at Deut 21:18-21. It says:

If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his town at the gate of that place. They shall say to the elders of his town, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid.
That is a whole lot of teenagers that we need to kill.
Then there is Leviticus 20:13:

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.
All homosexuals need to be killed. What about this:
If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbour, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.
That's a lot of people who need to be killed.
In other words, if we actually listened to what God says, we would need to kill at least half of the people in America tomorrow. After all, Isaiah 40:8 says, "The grass withers, the flower fades; but the word of our God will stand for ever." The word of the Lord tells us to kill half of the U.S. population.

There are two things in this that show you that God is imaginary. First there is the utter stupidity of these verses. Second, there is this fact: If God is an all-powerful being, he would kill them himself. There would be no need for people to do the murdering. These people would already be dead, and Wal-Mart would be closed on the Sabbath through lack of employees.

Notice that believers completely ignore these parts of the Bible. That is because they know that the verses are insane. By acknowledging that their God is insane, they prove that their God is imaginary.

this is like a roadside capenter trying to explain rocket science. How can a native docter explain telemedicine? He will commit murders. Do you know what Christianity is? I wish ive the opportunity to meet you in person, what you need is beyond internet, i mean seriouse deliverance from ignorance.

Mr_Anony:
There is nothing you can possibly do to be saved. Salvation is a gift

According to your opinion right?. . .

mazaje:

What is the universally acceptable christian doctrine on the nature of Jesus?

He is the ONLY Begotten Son of God.

And what is the central tenet? That he is the son of God alone?. . .If that is your answer then it is FALSE, many believe he is god and the son of god at the SAME time. . .That is the fact of the matter. . .

Both those that believe he is the son of God alone and those that believe he is God AND the Son of God share the central tenet - that he is the Son of God.

I am NOT asking you the question you are answering, I asked you SPECIFICALLY to tell me the central and universal christian doctrine on how to achieve salvation. . .

The central and universal Christian doctrine is this:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Faith in Jesus. Simple.

I am not even talking about them being the central tenets. . .

So what are you arguing about? I posited that the central tenets are shared by all Christians, so what are you disputing?

I am talking about the divisions that exist and how it is caused, and you are busy talking about central tenets as if it has to do with anything. . .

I addressed them in my initial post on this thread - go re-read it and get back to me if you have questions.

Central tenets are important because they are the underpinning of the Christian faith and no one calls him/herself a Christian and denies them. That differences of opinion exist and that those differences lead to division does not negate the existence of central tenets.

What is the central and universal christian tenet on tithe for example?

Tithing is not a central tenet of Christianity, hence you cannot expect any universality on the subject.

. . .I am talking about the disagreements that exist because people always chose to self project themselves as god but you keep talking about things I am not even discussing. . .

You challenged my assertion that there are no universal tenets - you have summarily failed to back up that challenge and are now backtracking. What you call 'self-projection' is simply finding common ground - it's the first step in building a deeper relationship with God. It's a method used in pedagogy - you identify aspects an individual can identify with and then use that as a building block.

It exist as what?. . .A house or a hotel or what?. . .

A central tenet does not have to be exacting in detail - it is a principle/philosophy first and foremost. Hence, in the case of hell, the principle of it's existence is sufficient to stand as a central tenet.

I am not even talking about that. . .What does a christian need to do to achvieve salvation through Jesus?. . .What is the universal christian doctrine on how salvation can be achieved through Jesus?

The universal tenet is that faith in Jesus is required for salvation.

Majaze....we need contributors....cant do this alone


https://www.nairaland.com/1150005/library-best-atheist-arguments-against

Logicboy03:
How do you receive that gift?

The same way you recieve eery other gift - by accepting it.

mazaje:

According to your opinion right?. . .

Nope, according to scripture

mazaje:

The bible contains subjective "timeless truths and principles" that have stood the test of time, just like the koran and the hindu verdes. . .Your claim that learned philosophers, astrologers, greeks, scientist have come to the realization and conclusion that the bible is indeed the book of all books remains a SHAMELESS LIE. . .

here is a penny for your thought bro...chew on this one..if you still want more ayam at your beck and call '
''The shape of the earth'''. The ''Encyclopedia Americana'' said: "The earliest known image that men had of the earth was that it was a flat, rigid platform at the center of the universe. ... The concept of a spherical earth was not widely accepted until the Renaissance." Some early navigators even feared that they might sail off the edge of the flat earth. But then the introduction of the compass and other advancements made possible longer ocean voyages. These "voyages of discovery," another encyclopedia explains, "showed that the world was round, not flat as most people had believed."

Yet, long before such voyages, about 2,700 years ago, the Bible said: "There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth." (Isaiah 40:22) The Hebrew word here translated "circle" can also mean "sphere," as various reference works note. Other Bible translations, therefore, say, "the globe of the earth" (Douay Version) and, "the round earth." Moffatt.


Some insist on interpreting this as a "flat circular earth," as a disc or pie. Since that was the concept used by mankind at the time the Bible was written, one could also accept that interpretation. Note, though, that one's interpretation today of such information does not mandate that this be the only interpretation, as noted above.
Thus, the Bible was not influenced by the unscientific views prevalent at the time regarding the earth?s support and its shape. The reason is simple: The Author of the Bible is the Author of the universe. He created the earth, so he should know what it hangs on and what its shape iis. Hence, when he inspired the Bible, he saw to it that no unscientific views were incorporated in it, however much they may have been believed by others at the time.

debosky:

He is the ONLY Begotten Son of God.

Both those that believe he is the son of God alone and those that believe he is God AND the Son of God share the central tenet - that he is the Son of God.

The problem is that as I have stated people just self project themselves as god and tell you what ever they want to tell you. . .That is the main point of my argument. . .If it were as simple as you are trying to make it seem, people will NOT hold different views about Jesus, you have just conceded that people hold different views about him. Some believe he is god at the same time the son of god, that is him and god are the same. . .While others believe he is a different and separate entity from god. . .That division is what I am talking about, not some bogus central tenet that you are claiming. . .People ALWAYS self project themselves as god and give what ever interpretation and opinion of the bible they feel others should follow. . .That is the CENTRAL point of my argument. . .

The central and universal Christian doctrine is this:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Faith in Jesus!

I said the central and acceptable universal doctrine on HOW to achieve salvation through Jesus. . .You have to have faith in Jesus but how do you achieve that salvation?. . .Is the belief in Jesus ALONE the ONLY doctrine that that all the christians they world over believe will lead you to salvation?. . .

So what are you arguing about? I posited that the central tenets are upheld by all Christians, so what are you disputing?

What are the central tenets that are accepted by ALL christians world wide. . .

Nature of Jesus. . .God's son or god and son of god at the same time?. . .Saying that every body believe he is the son of god is false, because others believe he is god at the same time. . .That is a very BIG difference. . .

I addressed them in my initial post on this thread - go re-read it and get back to me if you have questions.

Central tenets are important because they are the underpinning of the Christian faith and no one calls him/herself a Christian and denies them.

OK. . . .

Tithing is not a central tenet of Christianity, hence you cannot expect any universality on the subject.

OK. . . .

You challenged my assertion that there are no universal tenets - you have summarily failed to back up that challenge and are now backtracking. What you call 'self-projection' is simply finding common ground - it's the first step in building a deeper relationship with God. It's a method used in pedagogy - you identify aspects an individual can identify with and then use that as a building block.

What I call self projection is simply what it is. . .Telling people and giving them your opinion on what you feel should be or is represented. . .Fist step in building a deeper relationship with god?. . .Really?. . .LOL!

A central tenet does not have to be exacting in detail - it is a principle/philosophy first and foremost. Hence, in the case of hell, the principle of it's existence is sufficient to stand as a central tenet.

I disagree with this. . .

The universal tenet is that faith in Jesus is required for salvation.

I have already addressed this before. . .

Bidam: here is a penny for your thought bro...chew on this one..if you still want more ayam at your beck and call '
''The shape of the earth'''. The ''Encyclopedia Americana'' said: "The earliest known image that men had of the earth was that it was a flat, rigid platform at the center of the universe. ... The concept of a spherical earth was not widely accepted until the Renaissance." Some early navigators even feared that they might sail off the edge of the flat earth. But then the introduction of the compass and other advancements made possible longer ocean voyages. These "voyages of discovery," another encyclopedia explains, "showed that the world was round, not flat as most people had believed."

Yet, long before such voyages, about 2,700 years ago, the Bible said: "There is One who is dwelling above the circle of the earth." (Isaiah 40:22) The Hebrew word here translated "circle" can also mean "sphere," as various reference works note. Other Bible translations, therefore, say, "the globe of the earth" (Douay Version) and, "the round earth." Moffatt.


Some insist on interpreting this as a "flat circular earth," as a disc or pie. Since that was the concept used by mankind at the time the Bible was written, one could also accept that interpretation. Note, though, that one's interpretation today of such information does not mandate that this be the only interpretation, as noted above.
Thus, the Bible was not influenced by the unscientific views prevalent at the time regarding the earth?s support and its shape. The reason is simple: The Author of the Bible is the Author of the universe. He created the earth, so he should know what it hangs on and what its shape iis. Hence, when he inspired the Bible, he saw to it that no unscientific views were incorporated in it, however much they may have been believed by others at the time.

You are funny. . . You said that learned philosophers, astrologers, greeks, scientist have come to the realization and conclusion that the bible is indeed the book of all books. That remains a shameless lie. . .Name one astronomer that is a member of the NAS for example that says the bible is the book of all books?. . .So the bible says that the earth is a sphere?.. .Remember the same bible talks about the stars fighing along side human beings, it also talks about the stars falling into the earth and other nonsense. . You clearly do not know what you are talking about. . .

mazaje:

So davidylan and Oladegbuu are not christians, abi? What goshen and frosbel? They aren't christians abi?. . .What about enigma and pastor joagbeje?. . .Pastor kuns and seyibrown etc. . .You keep asking very useless questions, from one useless question to another. . .Christians disagree all the time and all of them claim they follow jesus and yet the disagree, even here on nairaland people like frosbel claim to follow only jesus but spend the entire time berating and criticizing other christians like goshen for not following the true teachings of jesus. . .

Those that believe that women should teach and preach in the churches and those that are against it use the same bible and follow the same jesus, those that believe in hell as a permanent place of suffering and those that are against it also use the same bible, those that believe that christians are supposed to prosper and those that are against it all believe in jesus and read the same bible. . .Those that believe in trinity and those that do not, those that disagree on how salvation should or can be achieved all believe in jesus and read the same bible, no?. . .Stop asking useless questions if you have nothing to say. . .Many believe in jesus and to others they are wrong. . .It all depends on how you personally self project yourself as god and in which doctrine you were raised in. . .There is NO universally acceptable christian doctrine. . .Enough of your shenanigans. . .

it will continue till we all come io (to) THE UNITY OF THE FAITH ..Eph4:10-13. @Goshen, Deboski et al, tnx guys for a job well done, i tell you guys, these so call atheists are former christians who had fallen from Grace, but like devil instead of repenting they are looking for others to drag allöng.

mazaje:

You are funny. . . You said that learned philosophers, astrologers, greeks, scientist have come to the realization and conclusion that the bible is indeed the book of all books. That remains a shameless lie. . .Name one astronomer that is a member of the NAS for example that says the bible is the book of all books?. . .So the bible says that the earth is a sphere?.. .Remember the same bible talks about the stars fighing along side human beings, it also talks about the stars falling into the earth and other nonsense. . You clearly do not know what you are talking about. . .

stop writing illogical grammer telling me i don't know what am talking about..i gave u facts..must i name a NAS scientist before you believe...abi Sir. Isaac newton wey publish his findings that the earth was held in space in relation to other heavenly objects by mutual attraction(gravity)..which was close to 3,200 yrs after the Bible had stated with elegant simplicity that the earth is hanging "upon nothing" no be SCIENTISH again? I smh for u ooo.

Bidam: stop writing illogical grammer telling me i don't know what am talking about..i gave u facts..must i name a NAS scientist before you believe...abi Sir. Isaac newton wey publish his findings that the earth was held in space in relation to other heavenly objects by mutual attraction(gravity)..which was close to 3,200 yrs after the Bible had stated with elegant simplicity that the earth is hanging "upon nothing" no be SCIENTISH again? I smh for u ooo.

You do not know what you are talking about. . .I didn't want to engage you because it was obvious that you do not really know what you are saying. . .Anaximander(c. 610 – c. 546 BC) a greek phlisopher was the first recorded person to suggest the earth is a sphere. If I am not mistaken lived before the book of Isaiah was written down. . . Did Newton tell you that he got his scientific knowledge from studying the bible? When did he or any other scientist say that the bibe is the book of all books?. . .Can you drop any quote from any renowned scientist that says the bible is the book of all books with regards to science?. . .The bible does not know know anything about astronomy because the same bible talks about stars falling into the earth, something that is just not possible. . .

mazaje:

You do not know what you are talking about. . .I didn't want to engage you because it was obvious that you do not really know what you are saying. . .Anaximander(c. 610 – c. 546 BC) a greek phlisopher was the first recorded person to suggest the earth is a sphere. If I am not mistaken lived before the book of Isaiah was written down. . . Did Newton tell you that he got his scientific knowledge from studying the bible? When did he or any other scientist say that the bibe is the book of all books?. . .Can you drop any quote from any renowned scientist that says the bible is the book of all books with regards to science?. . .The bible does not know know anything about astronomy because the same bible talks about stars falling into the earth, something that is just not possible. . .

rather you are the guy that is not getting your facts right...you don't want to engage me? what can you offer me sef rather lies you cooked up..stop spewing trash and lets talk about Christ...your anaximander that you are singing praises about was born on 610bc ...and if my memory serves me right isaiah the prophet who said the earth was spherical existed long before then about 740-681BC....Moreso anaximander never quoted the earth as a sphere(u can prove me wrong).he was a greek mythologist who identifies apeiron as unconditioned and therefore god(u don't believe in a deity anyway, i wonder why you are so excited about him)..like i said sir isaac newton believes in the GOD of the Bible and he is a scientist(i wonder what other proof u need ). i don't need to quote him. he was a christian

Bidam: rather you are the guy that is not getting your facts right...you don't want to engage me? what can you offer me sef rather lies you cooked up..stop spewing trash and lets talk about Christ...your anaximander that you are singing praises about was born on 610bc ...and if my memory serves me right isaiah the prophet who said the earth was spherical existed long before then about 740-681BC....Moreso anaximander never quoted the earth as a sphere(u can prove me wrong).he was a greek mythologist who identifies apeiron as unconditioned and therefore god(u don't believe in a deity anyway, i wonder why you are so excited about him)..like i said sir isaac newton believes in the GOD of the Bible and he is a scientist(i wonder what other proof u need ). i don't need to quote him. he was a christian

You don't know what you are talking about. . .Firstly the book of Isiah does NOT say that the earth is a sphere, it ONLY said that god sits above the circle of the earth, a circle is NOT a sphere. . .And there is no god that sits any where above the earth(point to your god sitting above the circle of the earth assuming the earth is a circle lets see), lets get that fact right before we move on. . .

Secondly the book of Isiah was NOT written by one person, the Jewish tradition which is mostly FALSE claims that it was written by a man called Isiah but scholars that have looked into it has said it is FALSE. . .Scholars have studied the book for over a hundred years and have said it as a compilation of writings from three different periods by different authors and they have given VERY valid reasons as to why the book could NOT have been written by one person but so many people over a long period of time. . .

Thirdly from wikipedia. . .It says. .

Anaximander was the first astronomer to consider the Sun as a huge mass, and consequently, to realize how far from Earth it might be, and the first to present a system where the celestial bodies turned at different distances. Furthermore, according to Diogenes Laertius (II, 2), he built a celestial sphere. This invention undoubtedly made him the first to realize the obliquity of the Zodiac as the Roman philosopher Pliny the Elder reports in Natural History (II, . It is a little early to use the term ecliptic, but his knowledge and work on astronomy confirm that he must have observed the inclination of the celestial sphere in relation to the plane of the Earth to explain the seasons.

Fourthly, name one scientist that has started that he/she came to the realization and conclusion that the bible is indeed the book of all books. . .Just one scientist will do. . .NO body truly knew what Issac Newtons faith was because he according to many entries he hid his faith so well that scholars are still unravelling his personal beliefs. . .Many christians of that time considered him a heretic. . .For example he said that worshipping christ as god was idolatry, he also rejected the orthodox doctrines of the immortal soul, a personal devil and literal demons. He wasn't your conventional christian. . .

mazaje:

[quote]You don't know what you are talking about. . .Firstly the book of Isiah does NOT say that the earth is a sphere, it ONLY said that god sits above the circle of the earth, a circle is NOT a sphere. . .And there is no god that sits any where above the earth(point to your god sitting above the circle of the earth assuming the earth is a circle lets see), lets get that fact right before we move on. . .

sphere/globe/circle atleast i showed you relevant translation of scriptural translation where it was mentioned as a globe or circle in isaiah. is sphere not circular in shape? funny you keep on replying my post even though you never wanted to.have u also considered the book of job26:7 the Bible simply stated (in about the year 1473 B.C.E.): "[God is] hanging the earth upon nothing." (Job 26:7) In the original Hebrew, the word for "nothing" used here means "not any thing," and this is the only time it occurs in the Bible. The picture it presents of an earth surrounded by empty space is recognized by scholars as a remarkable vision for its time. The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament says: "Job 26:7 strikingly pictures the then-known world as suspended in space, thereby anticipating future scientific discovery."
!The Bible's accurate statement predated Aristotle by over 1,100 years. Yet, Aristotle's views continued to be taught as fact for some 2,000 years after his death

[quote]Secondly the book of Isiah was NOT written by one person, the Jewish tradition which is mostly FALSE claims that it was written by a man called Isiah but scholars that have looked into it has said it is FALSE. . .Scholars have studied the book for over a hundred years and have said it as a compilation of writings from three different periods by different authors and they have given VERY valid reasons as to why the book could NOT have been written by one person but so many people over a long period of time. . .

[/quote] you mean that is what your ancient atheist fathers told you..that the prophecy of isaiah is false? why believe the lies and deception of satan. when most of the prophesies in isaiah came to pass as events in history showed.the claim that it was written by diffrent authors does not hold water here.

Anaximander was the first astronomer to consider the Sun as a huge mass, and consequently, to realize how far from Earth it might be, and the first to present a system where the celestial bodies turned at different distances. Furthermore, according to Diogenes Laertius (II, 2), he built a celestial sphere. This invention undoubtedly made him the first to realize the obliquity of the Zodiac as the Roman philosopher Pliny the Elder reports in Natural History (II, . It is a little early to use the term ecliptic, but his knowledge and work on astronomy confirm that he must have observed the inclination of the celestial sphere in relation to the plane of the Earth to explain the seasons.

the post you quoted never said anaximander says the earth is spherical...abegi go siddon u no get talk.

Fourthly, name one scientist that has started that he/she came to the realization and conclusion that the bible is indeed the book of all books. . .Just one scientist will do. . .NO body truly knew what Issac Newtons faith was because he according to many entries he hid his faith so well that scholars are still unravelling his personal beliefs. . .Many christians of that time considered him a heretic. . .For example he said that worshipping christ as god was idolatry, he also rejected the orthodox doctrines of the immortal soul, a personal devil and literal demons. He wasn't your conventional christian. . .

[/quote] at least u still agreed he was a christian.okay what about Copernicus(1513) who believes the earth to go round the sun...for him to be violently opposed by ignorant christian of his time goes to show he is a christian.

sphere/globe/circle atleast i showed you relevant translation of scriptural translation where it was mentioned as a globe or circle in isaiah. is sphere not circular in shape? funny you keep on replying my post even though you never wanted to.have u also considered the book of job26:7 the Bible simply stated (in about the year 1473 B.C.E.): "[God is] hanging the earth upon nothing." (Job 26:7) In the original Hebrew, the word for "nothing" used here means "not any thing," and this is the only time it occurs in the Bible. The picture it presents of an earth surrounded by empty space is recognized by scholars as a remarkable vision for its time. The Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament says: "Job 26:7 strikingly pictures the then-known world as suspended in space, thereby anticipating future scientific discovery."
!The Bible's accurate statement predated Aristotle by over 1,100 years. Yet, Aristotle's views continued to be taught as fact for some 2,000 years after his death

A circle is NOT a sphere, new and revisionist translation choose to revise the original word to make it agree with what we now know. . .You keep claiming that the bible says the earth hangs on nothing, but the bible also claims that the earth was created before the sun and a day will come when the stars will fall into the earth. . .

you mean that is what your ancient atheist fathers told you..that the prophecy of isaiah is false? why believe the lies and deception of satan. when most of the prophesies in isaiah came to pass as events in history showed.the claim that it was written by diffrent authors does not hold water here

Most of the bible scholars are Jews and christians, so you don't even know what you are talking about. . .Have you ever seen any satan lying to deceiving any body?. . .Tha fact remains that the book was not written during the period that jewish traditions say and was written by many people over a long period of time. . .

at least u still agreed he was a christian.okay what about Copernicus(1513) who believes the earth to go round the sun...for him to be violently opposed by ignorant christian of his time goes to show he is a christian.

And when did he say the bible is the book of all books when it comes to science?. . .

[quote]

mazaje:

A circle is NOT a sphere, new and revisionist translation choose to revise the original word to make it agree with what we now know. . .You keep claiming that the bible says the earth hangs on nothing, but the bible also claims that the earth was created before the sun and a day will come when the stars will fall into the earth. . .

ok...atleast you agree the sphere is a form of a circle.bro..no be me talk am na,na bible..look at job 26:7.scientist keep on making discoveries, discarding and reviewing theories @ the emboldened..lets wait and see whether they are right or the bible is right time will tell.

[quote]Most of the bible scholars are Jews and christians, so you don't even know what you are talking about. . .Have you ever seen any satan lying to deceiving any body?. . .Tha fact remains that the book was not written during the period that jewish traditions say and was written by many people over a long period of time. . .

[/quote] whether jews or christians is irrelevant..you already agreed from the beginning that the bible contains timeless truth and principles. satan is a spirit whether you agree to or not..it is a fact(act5:3)

And when did he say the bible is the book of all books when it comes to science?. . .

[/quote] like i said he doesn't need to say it..since he believes the bible as a manual for life that goes to show the BOOK HE CHERISHES MOST.

@ Bidam, you try o, i mean to discus bible(spiritual thngs) with this canal men. You know i tried to join the thread but when i look @ thier posts i felt like u are trying to explain sound and music to a deaf and dump. Brother- a canal man can not understand the things of the spirit, because they are spiritualy decerned. You try sha.

Bidam:
ok...atleast you agree the sphere is a form of a circle.bro..no be me talk am na,na bible..look at job 26:7.scientist keep on making discoveries, discarding and reviewing theories @ the emboldened..lets wait and see whether they are right or the bible is right time will tell.

No time can tell you what remains an impossibility. . .The stars are distant suns and some of them are even bigger than our sun which is like a million times bigger than the earth. . .Even our sun can not fall into the earth talk more of the other stars. . .

whether jews or christians is irrelevant..you already agreed from the beginning that the bible contains timeless truth and principles. satan is a spirit whether you agree to or not..it is a fact(act5:3)

When did I agree that the bible contains timeless truths and principles?. . .Telling lies is your forte right?. . .You are yet to tell me one scientist that says the bible is the book of all books when it comes to science. . .

like i said he doesn't need to say it..since he believes the bible as a manual for life that goes to show the BOOK HE CHERISHES MOST.

You earlier on said that scientist have said the the bible is the book of all books, am still waiting for you top show me just one of them. . .

christemmbassey: @ Bidam, you try o, i mean to discus bible(spiritual thngs) with this canal men. You know i tried to join the thread but when i look @ thier posts i felt like u are trying to explain sound and music to a deaf and dump. Brother- a canal man can not understand the things of the spirit, because they are spiritualy decerned. You try sha.

Lying is now a thing of the spirit abi?. . .LOL!