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Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by tpaine: 7:35pm On Mar 08, 2008 |
Jesus appears to have been schooled in the Old Testament Judaic laws of Moses and also appears to have endorsed such laws as they were then. In Matthew 5:17, he is seen to say he has not come to abolish the law, but to fulfil them (whatever that means). There is the law about dishonouring ones parents, given in Exodus 21:17; Exodus 21: 17 17 "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death. That Jesus is familiar with this law comes as no surprise to me, given his judaic schooling. However, what is shocking is that rather than disown or abrogate this law, Jesus gives it resounding approval; Look at Mark 7: 9 - 13 5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?" 6 He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' 8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men." 9 And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother, and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' 11 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12 then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that." Are these really Jesus's word? What does he mean by seeming to endorse a barbaric law of Moses? How many modern day Christians with miscreant children have failed to follow Jesus's recommendation? If you have not killed your wayward children, why have you not? What do you think is the most humane way of putting your child to death - stoning, lethal injection, hanging, electrocution, starving etc? ===================================================================================================== Some of my other threads The Dangers Of Religious Fundamentalism To Intellectualism https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=110955.msg1929006#msg1929006 Danger! 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Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by olabowale(m): 9:15pm On Mar 08, 2008 |
But the Christians will claim that all of the old laws were cancelled out by Jesus. Although, from the above, we see that Jesus followed the same 'Old' laws, without so much deviations. But that means diddly to the Christians who will argue that the rule of Jesus have to be 'abrogated' by Paul and his followers, because of the 'claimed' on the road to Damascus epiphany! Or is it serendipidy? Who is truly the leadership of the Christians; Jesus who they claimed to be god, son of god, (definitely a prophet) or the johnny come lately Paul (an ordinary Bogard, who never met Jesus)? The answer is apparent, since Paul was able, single handedly change the laws of Jesus himself, at least the one stated in the poster's introdutory entry above. We can see that Jesus was very strict in the ruling as he proclaimed that a parental abuser deserves death! How is it possible that Paul and company was able to go against the law passed down by god the son, when the prophets (eg Moses), who came before this son god stated and followed the same laws, which he received directly from God, or as the Christians will say it god the father? Lets blame whose shoulders the blames should squarely lay; Paul! |
Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by tpaine: 9:24pm On Mar 08, 2008 |
olabowale: The real Jesus, if he existed, was really a vile and reprehensible man. Thank goodness for Paul. |
Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by olabowale(m): 9:55pm On Mar 08, 2008 |
@Tpaine: Thats where you are me part ways! There was a Jesus. He was real. He was a true prophet and messenger of his Lord God Almighty. He was the Messiah to the nations of Isreal! He was the last of their prophets/Messengers! There is nothing that Paul did that was positive: he disregarded Jesus in many instances. One of them you outlined above. There was no reason to leave an agent to evil in the community. If evil was not checked, the line between it and goodness will be blurried. Sooner, many will give in to evil doing and consider it normal. On the other hand Paul exagerated the conditions and true position of Jesus with his Creator God Almighty, that it became a norm for people to yield their personal responsibility of salvation of the soul to him. In this wise, it became acceptable that all means of good effort to benefit the soul so that it may receive salvation was now on the single belief of Jesus conditions from the so called episodes leading to the trial, crucifixion, and ressurrection, etc! This is the endictment on paul and his gang! There is no evidence that Jesus asked anyone not to take responsibility for the actions as per the rule of engagement set under God's plan, which started from the beginning of creation, of Adam and Eve, our forebearers, since we are talking about human beings! |
Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by tpaine: 9:58pm On Mar 08, 2008 |
olabowale: Let's not argue his existence here. What about this evil stuff in his mouth? How do you reconcile that with a prophet of God? Would Mo have said such evils as this? ![]() |
Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by olabowale(m): 10:45pm On Mar 08, 2008 |
@Tpaine: Would it be possible for you to accept the killing of a mad man who is always blood tasty? Take for the sake of agument, a person who entered a town and wipe out 200 of her inhabitants, without any provocation? Would a person like that deserve to continue to live within the boundary of theat town, unchecked? What would you think that will happen to people who only have that kind of tendency, but suppressed it, until they find the inhabitants unconcerned about the new killing machine in the mist? These people who had fought against these type of evils until now, would just may test the water in a way to see if they can just burst loose and just go as far as they want to go in doing evil! Is there any society on earth that does not punish any evil deed, even your proposed liberal free all the way society? It is possible! I am sure you remember Oyenusi of 1972, and before it Babatunde Folorunsho of 1971. The laws of God are more powerful, full of justice and mercy than any that the whole of mankind can put together. If it was true that Jesus said the above punishment about abuse of parents, we then have to look at the position of typical parents versus that of typical children. They are the vessels for which the child came to an existence. Without God using them for that process the child would never have existed! Even if you are in disagreement with your parents, there is no reason to abuse them. But of course, there is always a was to seek forgiveness. In Is"lam, God put parent in greater level over the child! The mother in a higher level than the father. God says that one should obey the parents, except when they demend that you disobey Him, God Almighty! Even then, God never said in any place, and His Messenger never said that the Child should abuse them, in any condition! For me, I hope you are kind to your parents. Parents are put in a position that if God is not the Only Object/Focus of worship, children would have been commanded to prostrate their faces as in worship of them! In all you will never hear a true prophet of God saying something other than what commanded. Of course, if you do not belief in God, hence His Messengers and Prophets, it will be easy for you to see no wisdom in anything that is essential to law and order among mankind and harmony and obedience to God by His commandments. |
Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by tpaine: 11:01pm On Mar 08, 2008 |
I am against all forms of state sanctioned Death Penalty, even for the most vile of criminals. In fact, I think that the best punishment is to keep the deserving criminal alive with all their freedoms restricted. That is the hallmark of a civilised society. |
Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by 4Him(m): 11:17pm On Mar 08, 2008 |
tpaine: tpaine it's really a shame. Did you bother to read Mark 7 thoroughly at all? Did you know that Christ was merely explaining a completely separate point (responding to the query the pharisees brought to Him in verse 5) while using the law in Exodus as an example to point out the hypocrisy of those who paraded themselves as custodians of the laws of Moses? |
Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by tpaine: 11:20pm On Mar 08, 2008 |
4Him: CAn you explain what Jesus meant then? |
Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by 4Him(m): 11:25pm On Mar 08, 2008 |
tpaine: No tpaine, such explanation is wasted on a lost soul. Please read the chapter IN THE RIGHT CONTEXT before just jumping to erroneous conclusions. The issue in Mark 7 was not about that law but about whether it was lawful to eat bread with unwashed hands (which was against the laws of Moses). Look at verse 5 for the ORIGINAL QUESTION that prompted Christ's explanation. And to think you accuse christians of having addled minds unable to comprehend simple facts. Do you even bother to study before you come up with ur tripe? |
Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by tpaine: 11:59pm On Mar 08, 2008 |
5 So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?" 6 He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.' 8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men." The preceeding verses has Jesus admonishing the Pharisees for not keeping the laws ( You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men) after they accuse him and his disciples for not obeying such laws, calling them hypocrites. Who had given Jesus the audacity to not obey the law, given that he was Jewish and he says himself that he did not come to abolish the law, Matthew 5: 17. But in this case, he has fallen foul of the law and is rightly reproached by the Pharisees. He retorts by pulling the hypocrisy card, but that does not quite work well in this case, because he cites the laws mixing up two rather very different laws. Jesus' says "You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men." as a reproach NOT as a good thing for having abandon the tradition. Now what are the commands of God?. Jesus then cites a few; 9 And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother, and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' Jesus is implying that the have abandoned 'Honor your father and your mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.' Why would Jesus pronounce these two laws in the same breath? Did he mean that the one should be obeyed and not the other. Did he mean that both should be obeyed, or both abandoned? I leave that for you to sort out. There is a grander point I was making here which has escaped you comprehension. |
Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by 4Him(m): 12:06am On Mar 09, 2008 |
tpaine: Jesus never implied the rubbish you attribute to Him. Take off your blinkered glasses . . . Jesus Christ was simply saying to the pharisees . . . you people dont kill those who curse their parents, a part of Moses' law, because u say well maybe the boy didnt mean it or perhaps he was only trying to humor his parents or it was a gift . . . why then do you accuse my disciples of eating with unwashed hands? What if there were no water . . . shld they then starve? The complete explanation is in verses 11-13 which you have mischievously, deliberately and dishonestly decided to omit in favour of your own preconcieved ideas. tpaine: He was only referencing Exodus to make a point . . . He was not teaching about the law. tpaine: Your grand point is really no more than another bible smear campaign couched in pretended scholarship. |
Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by 4Him(m): 12:16am On Mar 09, 2008 |
and oh by the way thou hypocrite . . . how many christians have put their children to death for cursing them? Do you have any specific example in the bible were this was ever practiced? |
Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by tpaine: 12:26am On Mar 09, 2008 |
4Him: Verses 11- 13 even makes it worse. Corban, is the practice whereby children could dedicate something to God in order to release them from the obligation of looking after their parents. This was considered a dishonour to ones parents, because something dedicated to God could not be redeem (until a jubilee). So Jesus is saying children have been so dishonouring their parents and the Pharisees have been tolerating this, rather than punish the children, presumably with the death penalty. How else do you interpret this? |
Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by tpaine: 12:35am On Mar 09, 2008 |
4Him: You have a strange definition for the word hypocrite. I don't say one thing and knowingly behave in a way that is contrary to way I say. That is what hypocricy means. I was making several points here; 1) Either Jesus did not say these word but were put in his lips by the scribes 2) If he did, then he himself was hypocritical, for he calls for the obedience of the laws yet he violate them by not asking his disciples to wash their hands before eating 3) If he expected the Pharisees to keep the laws of Moses, then he was wicked. |
Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by 4Him(m): 2:12am On Mar 09, 2008 |
tpaine: He was not indicting the pharisees and calling them sinners for not punishing their children . . . rather He was using it in comparison to the earlier accusation of the pharisees. Read on context mr tpaine. |
Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by 4Him(m): 2:17am On Mar 09, 2008 |
tpaine: 1. He did say those words. 2. Christ NEVER once called on the Jews to go obeying the dead commandments . . . the purpose of His coming in the first place was to use Himself as the perfect sacrifice for sin (the sacrifice for sin under the law was the blood of bulls and goats) . . . Infact one of the accusations the pharisees level against Christ is that He was breaking the laws (i.e the sabath, eating with unwashed hands, sitting to eat bread with publicans and sinners). He came that no longer would we be subject to the laws of Moses but that our hearts may be renewed. 3. Infact it was the pharisees accusing Him of not keeping the laws of Moses. |
Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by olabowale(m): 3:21am On Mar 09, 2008 |
@Tpaine: I am against all forms of state sanctioned Death Penalty, even for the most vile of criminals. In fact, I think that the best punishment is to keep the deserving criminal alive with all their freedoms restricted. That is the hallmark of a civilised society.And Dukakis, the 1988 democratic flagbearer in the US presidential election, which George Walker Bush won, lost that contest solely by being presented as soft on crime. I remembered the keynote speaker of that democratic party convention, Mr. Bill Clinton, who was then an unknown governor, who gave a very boring and long winded speech. Almost everyone in the convention and at home was bored to sleep. Surprisingly, the following election cycle, he became the democratic nominee and defeated the incumbant President Bush by a simple slogan, "its the economy, stupid." What I am say is this, even in the most secular society, there is that minimum expectation of rule of law. There are some crimes that deserves death penalty! We can not be blind on that. We even saw that in play in the just ended republican primary, where Mick Romney was using the "liberal" record of Huckerbee on crime against him. You will not survive as a politician in America, no wonder you tend to believe that there is no God! For God lays down a set of rule and laws, as a commandment that is the rule of law by which we are to abide. Otherwise there will be lawlessness and probably bloodletting may go unchecked. It is this same commandment that will be the basis of judgement by God that He will use to punish the guilty in a just manner. It is the same judgment that He will temper His justice with Mercy whereby he will reward some with Paradise. |
Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by olabowale(m): 3:46am On Mar 09, 2008 |
@4Him; 1. He did say those words.What is surprising is that Jesus, from his own mouth said that he came to uphold/observe/fulfill the laws. That was his statement, because he said not a single jot will pass except thaa he fulfilled it, and that if anyone were to not follow this law in the same way that he did, or encouraged anyone not to, that person will be the least in the kingdom of God! The irony of it was that no sooner than he left this earth than Paul and company did just that. Going against the law to the point that the "law" was rendered useless! How do anybody justify this? Is this what Jesus meant or it is what he told Paul, against his own statement which was very clear and also direct to the point? There must be a liar in this argument between Jesus and Paul. The liar was not Jesus. But David, tou are just accusing Tpaine, without any direct explanation. The more you accused him, he is therefore obligated to dig deep into the Bible. But surprisingly, he comes back with more opposing views, to what the Christians are projecting upon him as a meek personality! Should we take the Christian body as a whole over Jesus? The answer will have to be no, as well! |
Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by tpaine: 9:30am On Mar 09, 2008 |
4Him: How about Matthew 5: 17 - 20 17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. Does this suggest that Jesus thought these commandments were dead? If they were now dead commandments, how about the 10 commandments. Are these also dead since they belong to the Old Testaments? In fact which version of the 10 commandments are dead - those in Exodus 20 OR those in Exodus 34? |
Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by tpaine: 9:36am On Mar 09, 2008 |
olabowale: You stated it. These are politician who would sell their own mothers if it meant gaining political positions. The fact that there are politician out there who endorse capital punishment does not make it right, in my view. Have you thought about the possibility of actually killing an innocent person? It has happened many a times. This in itself is a strong argument against the death penalty. |
Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by ayobase(m): 2:45pm On Mar 10, 2008 |
bible is not what u just read like u are reading novel. yes,u can read the bible and come up with different types of theory. but if surely u wanna read 4 edification then,u will need the holy spirit to guide u through. to tpaine take note!!! |
Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by ayobase(m): 2:49pm On Mar 10, 2008 |
ur coming up with these ur stories are not straight from the heart!!! u look like one of those that said they should crucify Jesus with the fact of knowing who he IS!! |
Re: Jesus, The Law And The Death Penalty by tpaine: 2:57pm On Mar 10, 2008 |
ayobase: If the bible is amenable to diverse and varying interpretations, how is one to know the correct interpretation. Is this not the problem that has result in about 30000 denominations in the Christian movement alone. Why did god not ensure that his message would not be vulnerable to these many diverse and differing and erroneous interpretations? I call your argument "The Argument of Inadequacy", meaning we are not worthy, or knowledgeable enough to understand his word. Why did he not speak in a simple and unambigous manner? Would you speak to your child in a manner that would only leave him confused and misguided? |
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