Muhammad cannot be the Comforter - Islam for Muslims - Nairaland
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Who Is The Comforter Jesus Promised / Mohammed Is Not The Comforter / Why Do Muslims Think That The Comforter Jesus Christ Promised Is Muhammad? (2) (3) (4)
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| Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by deSika(m): 4:11pm On Mar 31, 2013 |
Salaam aleikun If there is any verse that talks about Prophet Muhammad in the bible, the book of John should not be among them. I am bewildered to see that the Muslim world thinks otherwise. If only the muslim scholars who explain the comforter as Muhammad knew they were shooting themselves in the foot and committing shirk, I doubt if they would ever take such a disastrous position. Muslims Scholars say the word translated comforter in John's gospel is paraclete which was originally periqlytos meaning honored one, admired one or praised one and that this corresponds to Muhammeds name in greek. Ok now lets agree that Jesus intended his comforter to be Muhummad, since periqlytos means admired one or honored or praised one which actually is Mohammed's name. We will discover that this only brings up a lot of problems for us. let’s begin John 14:16 says And I will pray the father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you forever. 1. What! which father are we talking about here. What happened to Sura 112:3 that says he is neither begotten nor is born. Allah is never mentioned in the quran as father). If you agree that Jesus was talking about Muhammad here, then it means you are accepting that he was to pray to his FATHER to send Muhammad. The problem here is that, Jesus here is committing shirk by referring to God as father. And by agreeing to that statement you are unknowingly committing shirk (associating partners i.e sons to him). Or what else does shirk mean? But if there is a father, then there must be a son. Question now is, who is the son of the father Jesus was going to pray to? 2. And he shall give you another comforter Another, here is translated from allos which talks about another of the same kind, meaning another comforter like Jesus. Inserting Muhammed’s name here shows utter desperation by muslim scholars. First in Deuteronomy 18 they claim that Jesus and Muhammad are nothing alike (implicitly; they say that Jesus is not like Moses and that Muhammad was), but now all of a sudden Jesus and Muhammad are very similar! They can’t have their cake and eat it too! If Jesus and Muhammad are alike enough that Muhammad can be the one prophesied in John 14:16, then they are similar enough for Jesus to also fit the qualifications to have been the prophet of Deuteronomy 18. They can’t have it both ways. Its either Muhammad is like Jesus in John's gospel or he is not like Jesus in Deuteronomy. Which one is it? Talking from both sides of the mouth uhn! 3. We cannot just insert Muhammeds name here on the basis of name interpretation. So Just because Muhammeds name means honored one or one to be praised and periqlytos/periclytos means the same, should we take that verse to mean Muhammed? We can only take this position if the verse read "And i will pray the father and he shall give you another whose name is honored one" but the verse reads "And i will pray the father and he shall give you another honored one" that is to say "to give you another Muhammed". Here we have another problem in our hands. Reading this verse to mean another Muhammad which is what the muslims scholars are asking us to do will therefore mean that there was a Muhammed before the promised Mohammed and that Jesus is this Muhammed. Let me break it down One whom people praise exceedingly = periqlytos one whom people praise exceedingly = Muhammad Therefore Periqlytos = Muhammad So if we say ' to send you another periqlytos' then we can say 'to send you another Muhammad' Am sure you get it now. Who is this Muhammad before the promised one. Definitely not Jesus whose name means God will save or God saves. 4. That he may abide with you forever. Sorry brothers do you mean an eternal Muhammad, oh pls, try something else. Of all the reasons why we should not be talking about Muhammad in this verse, this one actually drives home the point. Did he meet the criteria of 'foreverness'. Now some people out there will say Mohammed’s teachings are still with us today. They dont realise that they are adding more fuel to the fire. That statement talks about an "he".when did mohammed's teachings become an "he"?. 5. Verse 17 says Even the spirit of truth whom the world cannot receive, because he seeth him not, neither knoweth him;but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you and shall be in you. This verse shows the criteria for the comforter which Muhammad clearly did not meet. Muhammad could be seen and did not dwell in any person 6. Now lets go over to John 14:26 "but the comforter which is the Holyspirit whom the father will send in my name." Now lets pretend we didnt see holyspirit there. But wait a minute! Is there something you are not telling me? Muhammad sent in Jesus name! Muslim scholars are so desperate and will i say ignorant that they dont know they are causing a great disservice to Islam and many muslims especially in nairaland will subscribe to their reasoning. To them it matters not as far as Mohamed can be shown to be in the bible. If you accept this verse then it means that you agree that Jesus is a higher authority and operating on a different level than Muhammed. Lets consider this example. A minister cannot send the President in his(the minister’s) name to represent him in a function, rather it’s the President that sends the minister in the Presidents name. The name signifies authority that must be responded to even in the President’s absence. The minister acts on the king’s authority not on his own authority. So my brothers, accepting this verse as speaking of Mohammed is tantamount to accepting the fact that Mohammed was to act on Jesus’ authority and not on his own, since he was sent in Jesus name. This is the position you put yourself when you put Mohammed’s name in that verse. This has a greater weight, for if Muhammed is sent in Jesus name then Muslims ought to deeply find out about this Jesus on whose name their great prophet is sent. (I didn’t start it o, you guys were the ones that said that your prophet will be sent in Jesus name) 7. John 14:26 continues "He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Question is, can you tell me the things that Muhammad said that Jesus said when he (Jesus) was on earth. Am talking about Jesus’ teachings. 8. Finally, If we are to accept that Jesus was speaking about Prophet Mohammad in these verses, are we not saying that Prophet Jesus must be a weird guy. Or how else can you explain a prophet who promises his disciples a "periqlytos" only for this periqlytos to show up in a differnt location about 600 yrs after the disciples had died. Except maybe by chance his disciples migrated to Saudi Arabia and lived there over 600 yrs. This must be a miracle. Wow what a long write up. Notice that i presented my arguments based on the Islamic scholars’ position and disregarded the claim by Christians(those guys could be confusing sometimes) that paraclete means holyspirit. FINAL WORD: its either Mohammed is talked about in John's gospel or he is not. If he is, then i put it to you that you are guilty of shirk, for the one who is being prayed to for the gift of the comforter is a God father (as in a God that begets and his offsprings have become partners with him) Its either Mohammad is similar to Jesus in John 14,15 and 16 or he is not in Deut 18. Which one is it? CONCLUSION: Muslim scholars and their nairaland counterparts in trying to authenticate Mohammad’s prophetic status want to see his name in the scriptures of other religions. But they fail to do this with reasoning and never consider that they may shooting themselves in the foot. If their lies have been exposed on Johns gospel then they cannot be trusted with interpretations on Deuteronomy and others. 9 Likes 1 Share |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by deSika(m): 5:27pm On Mar 31, 2013 |
i tried spacing out, but it just didnt work. |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by thorpido(m): 6:22pm On Mar 31, 2013 |
It has always been a delusion to think that scripture refers to Muhammed.Jesus said He shall take of mine and shew it to you.Did Muhammed come to show Jesus? They must twist it to give credibility to what they accept. |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by deSika(m): 6:39pm On Mar 31, 2013 |
@thorpido just trying to show them that putting Mohammed into those verses does more harm than good to islam. just imagine, they dont believe that God begets yet they belive that Jesus was going to pray to a God that begets to send Mohammed (Periqlytos) muslim brothers wat you guys have to say. am waiting for your rebuttals or acceptance |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by vedaxcool(m): 6:47pm On Mar 31, 2013 |
Peace  Let me first explain what we muslims hold to be the truth about the bible and the Islam. 1. We muslims take the words of the Qur'an as the absolute truth requiring no validation neither support from any book! We decide validating the Qur'an mainly to non - muslims. Using what appeals to their logic! Hence the prophet hood of Muhammad pbuh for a muslim is clearly 100% truth, I don't need to believe verses in the bible to accept that fact, my belief in his prophet hood is 100% from the Qur'an. So when muslims prove to you that prophet Muhammad pbuh was talked about in the bible, they do so to convince you not themselves! 2. No offence intended, Muslims do not consider the bible the true word of God, as we believe that the bible currently in existence have been severely altered that the True message of God was lost, and that it though it contains little of divine message, the bulk of it are the words of men! Hence not every word ascribed to Jesus do I accept to be his words! Now that being cleared I will address your points little by little, bat actually low! 1. We can say he was speaking allegorically, and using Jewish idioms, as jesus told the Jews in the verse (sorry can be quoting verses replying from my fone) where the Jews accused him of blasphemy and his response was that "is it not written in your scripture that yee are gods" it seems he was refering to Pslam, anycase in the above verse we see Jesus agreeing with the Jews (religious preist) that they are gods, now if you insist that the verse is not metaphorical and Jesus was speaking to his father (he actually said I will pray the father - with out possessing the father as in I will pray to my father) then you would have to accept that the Jews priests are gods and the implication of having multiple gods on earth, hence my point is Jews then including Jesus spoke in metaphors and this was just one of them! 2 Likes |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by LagosShia: 7:55pm On Mar 31, 2013 |
LagosShia: Why the "paraclete,comforter,advocate,spirit of truth" to come after Jesus cannot be the christian "holy spirit"? |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by LagosShia: 8:00pm On Mar 31, 2013 |
Judek2: LagosShia: |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by LagosShia: 8:04pm On Mar 31, 2013 |
dexmond: @LagosShia LagosShia: |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by deSika(m): 8:07pm On Mar 31, 2013 |
. We can say he was speaking allegorically, and using Jewish idioms, pls can you explain the alegorical or metaphoric meaning of the statement (he actually said I will pray the father - with out possessing the father as in I will pray to my father whether the father or my father, there is still father inside. now what or who does that mean. thanks for responding |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by LagosShia: 8:10pm On Mar 31, 2013 |
dexmond: LagosShia LagosShia: |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by LagosShia: 8:16pm On Mar 31, 2013 |
proo212: Lagosshia, I see you use 1 John 4:1 in your posts. So now we saying spirit is now flesh? So the Holy spirit is Mo....I laugh. Amazing how you only quoted 1 John 4:1 and refuse to quote 2-3 for context. Verse 2 and 3 totally nullifies your claim. LagosShia: |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by LagosShia: 8:20pm On Mar 31, 2013 |
Judek2: LagosShia: |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by deSika(m): 8:21pm On Mar 31, 2013 |
brother am finding it difficult to understand u, pls correct me if am wrong. this is what i think you tryying to pass across 1. the holyspirit is not the paraclete 2. the spirit of truth is a prophet as u hv shownn frm d bible now ds does not address the points raised in the op. as am not arguing about the holyspirit being the paraclete and the spirit of truth being a prophet. pls address the points raised in the op. thank yu |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by LagosShia: 8:21pm On Mar 31, 2013 |
The above posts are copied from a past thread where this topic was discussed: https://www.nairaland.com/871478/us-christian-jewish-actor-director-sean/1#10995463 |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by LagosShia: 8:26pm On Mar 31, 2013 |
deSika: . We can say he was speaking allegorically, and using Jewish idioms, Jesus (as) can never be accused of doing "shirk"."Father" or "son" is figurative as the bible confirms,when it comes to God-man relation.it is Christians who have made these terms literal. Find out more on this brief explanation and get more answers below: https://www.nairaland.com/811919/god-son |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by deSika(m): 10:26pm On Mar 31, 2013 |
vedaxcool: Peacebro, thanks for responding. but my question is what is the metaphorical meaning of father as used by Jesus. since you say we should not take it literally.so what do you understand father to mean. also wat do you think about the other points in the op @LagosShia, thanks for your response but i will appreciate if you relate with me directly as in pick the points in the op and deal with dem rather than quoting your past discussions. thanks for your understanding. #still awaiting the input of Sheikh Thaba, Maclatunji and others Salaam aleikun |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by deSika(m): 11:14pm On Mar 31, 2013 |
vedaxcool: Peace Another thing, bro Agreed, you are trying to convince non muslims. if the quran does not require validation as u say, dont you think you will be erring when you DECIDE to validate it for any reason whatsoever? if it does not require validation then it does not require validation for whatsoever reason (what u are saying without u knowing is that the quran needs validation to an extent to the non muslim.so pls watch wat u say,ur choice of words it can be used against u). thank me later |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by vedaxcool(m): 9:38am On Apr 01, 2013 |
deSika: I understand the father in Jesus statement to be an alternative to saying Lord/God, hence when Jesus says I will pray the father sends . . .to mean I will pray the lord . . . As Jesus often uses Lord and father to mean the same person God! I will address your other points one after the other! |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by vedaxcool(m): 9:45am On Apr 01, 2013 |
deSika: Yes it does not need validation to me or any other muslim because we believe it to be 100% the word of God, but it will need to be validated to those who do not believe in it as being the word of God, u can use my words against me only if you are dishonest what I say in its context is clear enough, when a person says we prove what the Qur'an says to him, we can decide to prove to him and that is what the statement means! |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by vedaxcool(m): 10:12am On Apr 01, 2013 |
2. Ur second point is quite laughable the word allos means so many things that the muslims interpretation will hold regardless: allos: other, another Original Word: ἄλλος, η, ον Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: allos Phonetic Spelling: (al'-los) Short Definition: other, another, different Definition: other, another (of more than two), different. biblesuite.com/greek/243.htm Now Jesus clarifies an important difference between him the current comforter and the next: John 16:7-14 "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth : for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew [it] unto you." Jesus says he has many to say but they cannot bear that the comforter will guide them to all truth meaning this coming comforter will be bring messages that would differ significantly than what he brought hence here Jesus is already highlighting difference between him and the next comforter! Hence we can quibble with words and it will get us no where allos means another of the same kind, Jesus has clarified this point! 2 Likes |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by vedaxcool(m): 10:39am On Apr 01, 2013 |
3. I couldn't get what u were saying! 4. You were the same person saying the next Comforter would be like Jesus a man, does a man live forever, even the bible says the it is ordained for every man to die . . . So before u beg us we have to clarify with you, do u agree Jesus meant a man like himself when he refered to the comforter! And are you in essence saying this man Jesus spoke about would live forever (agreeing to this invalidates point 2, which means the comforter jesus spoke would be very much unlike Jesus who is not with us here on) in essence it would the entire prophecy useless and untenable! I would u advise u choose ur next words carefully! Muslims uderstand this words to mean the teachings of the next comforter would abide forever, as u would know Islam is here to stay and certain religions have died out! 1 Like |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by deSika(m): 12:13pm On Apr 01, 2013 |
@Bro Vedaxcool, seriosly i really appreciate ur responses, and tnks for dealing with the op.now to your posts vedaxcool:am trying not to misconstrue u. are u saying we can use the term father to mean God. nevertheless i think we would be saying the same thing. ie God is father and as a father must have offsprings (or you saying God cannot be father as per having offsprings but can be referred to as father ie father is another word for God) now this confusing.why call God a teacher when he canot not teach, why call God a President when he does not preside in the same way why call God father when he does not "father". whether u try to use metaphorical interpretation or not u would still be arriving at the same thing which is that ANYTHING REFERRED TO AS FATHER MUST HAVE SOME ATTRIBUTE WHICH THE WORD FATHER HAS. my position is this: father means father(a relationship). so its either God is father and should be referred to as that or he is not and should not be referred to as such. i would oblige u to choose one |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by thorpido(m): 12:41pm On Apr 01, 2013 |
vedaxcool: 2. Ur second point is quite laughable the word allos means so many things that the muslims interpretation will hold regardless:since the above scripture purportedly spoke about Muhammed,can any muslim explain to me the part I highlighted in capital letters?Jesus said,' He shall glorify Me,for He shall receive of Mine'.Did Muhammed come to glorify Jesus and was his message a testimony and approval of the message of Jesus,because that is the meaning of that part of the Scripture. |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by deSika(m): 1:27pm On Apr 01, 2013 |
vedaxcool: 2. Ur second point is quite laughable the word allos means so many things that the muslims interpretation will hold regardless: bro y did u not paste the full information on that site. you pasted a part and left d most important part. why did u leave out the main definition why agiain i ask y. here is the site yu pasted. allos: other, another Original Word: ἄλλος, η, ον Part of Speech: Adjective Transliteration: allos Phonetic Spelling: (al'-los) Short Definition: other, another, different Definition: other, another (of more than two), different. 243 állos (a primitive word) – another of the same kind; another of a similar type. take notice of the last sentence. anyways if yu say that the periqlytos has a diferent message from Jesus then it means yu are proving your muslim scholars wrong because all of them say that Mohammed is like Jesus. my question remains: is Mohammed similar to Jesus as in Johns gospel or not similar to him as can be seen in Deut 18. answeer needed |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by deSika(m): 1:41pm On Apr 01, 2013 |
vedaxcool: 3. I couldn't get what u were saying!my third point is this John 14:16 says And I will pray the father, and he shall give you another PARACLETE, that he may abide with you forever. muslim scholars say no its And I will pray the father, and he shall give you another PERIQLYTOS, that he may abide with you forever. Which means And I will pray the father, and he shall give you another MOHAMMAD, that he may abide with you forever. I hope u get it now. my question now is who was the Mohammed before this Mohammed(neva mind that some muslims say Mohammed was the first to bear the name,they may be lying) the point is if there was no Mohammad before Mohammad then it nullifies that statement. are you stiill with me |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by deSika(m): 2:06pm On Apr 01, 2013 |
vedaxcool: 3. I couldn't get what u were saying!aha ye we go again. i need clarity on this issue. who or what do yu say the periclytos is a. Mohammad or b. teachings of the Mohammad (the next comforter) if u ask me i wud say the answer is non of the above it cant be Mohammad, why dats wat i hv been trying to say in this thread it cant be option b because we are a comforter that is an 'HE' HE shall abide with u forever, HE shall glorify me etc. am not here for argument sake. after showing yu why Mohammad is not the comforter, then we will move on to who the comforter is. so lets not jump the gun uhn. |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by deSika(m): 2:16pm On Apr 01, 2013 |
sory i meant to type it cant be option b because we are taliking about a comforter that is an 'HE' HE shall abide with u forever, HE shall glorify me etc. |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by deSika(m): 2:42pm On Apr 01, 2013 |
You were the same person saying the next Comforter would be like Jesus a man, does a man live forever, even the bible says the it is ordained for every man to die . . . So before u beg us we have to clarify with you, do u agree Jesus meant a man like himself when he refered to the comforter! And are you in essence saying this man Jesus spoke about would live forever (agreeing to this invalidates point 2, which means the comforter jesus spoke would be very much unlike Jesus who is not with us here on) in essence it would the entire prophecy useless and untenable! my brother thats a gud question. am not the one to answer u on that. let the bible speak for itself. but let me ask u another question. if the bible says the comforter who lives forever is like Jesus dont you think that it means that Jesus lives forever. just a question. this question raises yet another question if Jesus living on earth lives forever what does it mean. can a living human being live forever. is there something special about Jesus we have to find out. my point is that a living huma being can not be said to live forever. Jesus in equating himself with someone that lives forever is trying to tell us that he lives forever. yet again only God lives forever. here again we find Jesus supposedly blasphemy. Either he is blashemy or he is stating a fact. i didnt say anything o. am just deducing from the christian bibles statemtent i was sceptical in making this last post. because i ddonnt want us to derail the thread.someone might just feed on this and use it to take towards another direction. i just wanted to point something in regards to yr questtion. so pls let us kip to the thread. thanks for ur understanding |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by deSika(m): 3:06pm On Apr 01, 2013 |
know Islam is here to stay and certain religions have died out easy bro, am not contending this with you at all my contention is the tittle of this thread. thanks for the advice anyway #Am using this opportunity to invite all our muslim brothers to the discussion table. Especially Thaba1234 and Maclantunji |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by deSika(m): 9:59am On Apr 02, 2013 |
@ thorpido these guys are not saying anything. perhaps they are stil consulting with their scholars and websites. there is a place inthe is it quran or hadiths that say when truth comes falsehood flees. @NL Moslems wat silence there is nothing wrong in admitting that u have bin wrong all this while especially on this issue. common life still goes on. am glad for this opportunity to pas this message across. anyways Vedaxcool has just become my most respected muslim of the year. atleast for saying something but yu dd not finish with the points o. i no u r busy. so wen u r free drop bye. i once saw Sheihk Thaba viewing this thread. Salaam |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by seyibrown(f): 3:00am On Apr 03, 2013 |
subscribing |
| Re: Muhammad cannot be the Comforter by vedaxcool(m): 7:08pm On Apr 03, 2013 |
deSika: You case is hardly rock solid, when muslims say like Jesus they understand this to refer to Jesus in human form, the words can be understood in several context but it seems u already have your own answers that u expect to hear the same way I told u clearly muslims do not interpret the word father as used by Jesus to mean actual father yet u still insist that somehow we must understand it literally . . . Now u keep talking about muslim scholars who u are clearly not talking to here, if not I would simply quote their opinion and sit back . . . In any case Ahmed Deedat interpreted the verse to mean that the another paraclaytos to mean another person not a spirit that is the bone of contention simply is whether the next comforter is an actual humanbeing or a spirit hence when muslim scholars said another comforter would be like Jesus they mean another comforter that would come in human form not a spirit! Like I indicated the phrase another of the same kind have different meanings, I did indicate which u overlook Jesus himself highlighted a difference between himself and the next comforter which is the next would guide humanity to all truth which u again stresses the difference btw him and the next comforter, I.e during his time on earth he gave people guidiance but not total guidiance, now that to me underscores what he meant by another of the same kind, which is another man just like me who who teach u thing I never did! Read in the context please! |
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