striktlymi:

There is a need for you to substantiate the above. How is my post a lie?

striktlymi: The above failed to demonstrate that the fallacious argument I put up there is a baseless lie. If you claim that your accusations stems from the religious books then one would be tempted to ask you, how many religions (or sects) do we have and how many of such religious books have you read?

#Don't give me the two major religion thingy as your answer o.

ooman:

Becuase your analogy is not germane to the main point



I attack the Christian concept of God as it is obvious in the OP. The Muslim concept of God is also affected since their qoran is a photocopy of the Old Testament with modifications.

striktlymi:

Hmmm...okay! okay!!...now you are forcing me to go through the OP! I will do that soon and give you a feedback!

Anyways, I am of the opinion that the point I demonstrated won't be completely irrelevant after I read the OP.

#Wanna bet?

ooman:

so you havent read the OP and you continue to comment??

duh!! you are quite disappointing!! I bet that your points remain absolutely irrelevant.!!

striktlymi: Good afternoon bros,

Sorry I did not read the OP for a justifiable reason: How can someone who you believe does not exist be a fraudster?

ooman: The topic of mutual exclusion of omniscience and freewill is a topic that exposes many things about the nature of God.

ooman:
This topic just didnt immediately mean that God does not exist if we have freewill,

ooman:
it also means that If God exist, then we dont have freewill. What we therefore call freewill is only a delusion because if Jack has two options - A and B, and if an omniscient being knows that Jack was going to choose B, then Jack MUST choose B, if not, the omniscient being is not omniscient anymore.

ooman:
Jack, on the other hand would think that its his freewill to choose between A or B, but it has been decided long ago. Jack therefore has only the delusion of freewill.

ooman:
This fact shows that if God exist, then man does not have a real freewill but a delusion of it.

ooman:
This therefore makes God a villain by making man believe that a delusion is reality.

ooman:
But isnt that what religion is all about? Religion is all about deception, and God is all about getting worshiped.

ooman:
How exactly is God a fraudster? I will use two events in the bible to show how God or at least the idea of God has defrauded man.

ooman:
1. The fall of man - According to Gen 3, God supposedly gave man the choice of eating or not eating from the tree of knowledge, out of which man ate and God got furious. In his furiousness, he punished man.
But if God is truly omniscient, then he must have known that man would eat from the tree of knowledge, why then did he get furious enough to punish man?? That is the problem here, the fraud.

ooman:
God made Adam and Eve look stupid [/b]and God pretended as if he never knew they were going to eat from the tree and he punished them and sent them off Eden.

ooman:
But the [b]religious will not agree with the above - this immediately suggest that God is not omniscient.

ooman: So it is either God is not omniscient or he is a fraudster, no other option is possible.

ooman:
God defrauded man by making it seem as if it was man's decision to eat from the tree.

ooman:
This he did so that man would think he had disobeyed God and so owed God a lifetime of worship in return for his salvation that he offered us.

ooman:
God inveigled the human race and made us think we are the villains when in fact he is the criminal. This is an act of fraudulent.

ooman:
2. The betrayal of Judas - According to the Gospels, a man named Judas betrayed Jesus, he later committed suicide because he thought it was his own freewill at work.
But if God is truly omniscient, then he must have known that Judas would betray Jesus, but he pretended and played dumb.
The fraud here is this - Because God already knew that Judas would betray Jesus, since he is omniscient, and because someone must betray Jesus for God's dumb plan to work, then it is not Judas freewill to betray Jesus because it is either Judas betrayed Jesus or God is not omniscient anymore. Judas never understood this and after the act, he blamed his freewill and committed suicide.

ooman:
God defrauded Judas of his life by deceiving him into thinking it was his freewill to betray Jesus when in fact he must for God's omniscience to remain valid.

ooman:
This proves that if God exist, then we do not have freewill, all the evils in the world are just what God planned.

ooman:
God is a fraud. He defrauded us into thinking we have freewill so we would think that all our mistakes are a result of our freewill and so feel like we owe him lifetime of worship in order to save us. For God, it is not about us, it is about him getting worshiped, this is why he defrauded us.

God is a fraud and we must do away with such a villain. Think and choose wisely

ooman: ^^^^ am on mobile now. will reply your prevarications and obvious lies when I get on PC

Reyginus: Was it not this same ooman who told us that he's left atheism? You're true to yourself bro!

striktlymi:

Good morning me guy,

Hmmm...when you accuse someone of evading the truth and telling lies, then you should be ready to put 'your money where your mouth is'.

I await your response to the so called 'lies and truth evasion'. Kindly embarrass me by pointing out the lies and demonstrate how I have evaded the truth.


Thanks!

ooman:

wait for it.

striktlymi:

Sure I will!

ooman:

I never told you I believed in that character called God.

Reyginus: Ofcourse, that's true. On a flipside, I'm also not saying that atheism adheres to religious belief. But to denounce atheism is the religious belief.

ooman:

You really think am now religious?? Heck, I could be insane too. Nontheism is what I evolved into.

Reyginus: What is nontheism? Educate me.

ooman:

Educating people is what I dont have time for on nairaland. I come here to debate not to teach. Google what you dont know or go back to school.

Reyginus: Okay let me ask our friend wikipedia.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontheism
Nontheism is a term that covers a range of both religious[1] and nonreligious[2] attitudes characterized by the absence or rejection of theism or any belief in a personal god or gods.
Ooman, is this what you're talking about?

inspiredbyGOD:.:
@Striktlymi, what would you say about pharoah holding back the Israelites? Was that by his own freewill or was he influenced to make that decision?

ooman:

do you have to ask again?

inspiredbyGOD:.:
@Striktlymi, what would you say about pharoah holding back the Israelites? Was that by his own freewill or was he influenced to make that decision?

inspiredbyGOD:.:
@Striktlymi, Romans 9:16-18 disagrees with your post above.

ooman:

all religions are based on a God, therefore, God is the ultimate fraud!

achina boy:
emm, all religions are based on so called god,not on the creator of this globe because i believe he exist,the only problem is that we misquote his involvement,i guess

ooman:

all you religious people just find one excuse or the other to protect this god of yours. One fact remains that no god exist anywhere

striktlymi: Good evening bros!
Finally I read the OP and it was as I expected . See my response below:

striktlymi: ^^^Really?? Now you have 'tickled' my interest.
That's not quite true! I don't see the conflict between God's omniscient and man's free will. The question is: what does it mean for God to be omniscient? The simple answer would be that God knows all things (both revealed and un-revealed knowledge). In other words, God's knowledge is infinite.

striktlymi: Now, the fact that man has freedom to do what he wants does not undermine this infinite knowledge of God. Note that it is one thing for one's knowledge to be infinite and another for that individual to act based on that knowledge. The fact that God choose not to act despite this know-how, does not, in any way, suggest that there is a conflict between man's freewill and God's infinite knowledge.

striktlymi: The fact that we have freewill does not tell us anything about the existence or non-existence of God. As I have already demonstrated above, there is no conflict between man's free will and God's omniscient. Coming to your analogy, the fact that an Omniscient being knows the option Jack will go for does not undermine the ability of Jack to make a choice between those two options.

striktlymi: A choice is what it is simply because we have the right to make our own decision when faced with a number of possibilities. Jack for instance is faced with two possibilities: either option A or option B. If he goes for option A as against going for option B without anyone 'arm-twisting' the poor fellow to making that choice then it follows that Jack has made a decision based on his free will or better still, Jack has made a choice.

striktlymi: Now your argument is that since God knows which option he would go for then Jack did not make a choice but was forced to select the option he chose. This really is not the case here. Jack actually made a choice without being influenced and the fact that God knows this choice does not mean that Jack's freedom was thrashed.

striktlymi: This definitely is not correct! Being an omniscient God does not mean that God makes decisions for us, it only means that the decision we make freely is already known to him. Knowing a decision is different from making the decision! God does not make the decision, his fault (if you consider it a fault) is that he knows the decision before it is made.

striktlymi: ThisI have demonstrated why the above is incorrect!
I believe the above accusation is false and I have demonstrated why already.

striktlymi: ThisThe above are accusations you are yet to substantiate!

striktlymi: Okay na! Let's go there...
Well, God would be guilty of fraud if you were able to demonstrate that the freedom of choice was impaired by God in any way. What you succeeded in showing is that God knew that man would fall and did nothing to change it...if God had done something to change that, then he would have been guilty of committing fraud because then, it would have been glaring that man is without free will.

striktlymi: That is another accusation you are yet to substantiate! We can't blame God for the decision Adam and Eve made! The decision was not influenced, hence their guilt in the matter. This reminds me of people who commit all manner of atrocities only to blame the devil for the wrong they did, instead of taken responsibility for their actions.

striktlymi: Remind me again where feigning ignorance of something translates to a fraudulent act?

striktlymi: ThisNope! I don't agree because you only made accusations you are yet to corroborate with concrete evidence.
You can only demonstrate the bold by proving that a conflict exists between an omniscient God and the free will of man. I have shown that this imaginary conflict only exists in your head

striktlymi: ThisThe above was man's decision! Refer to my responses above!
Wrong!!!

striktlymi: ThisAnother unsubstantiated accusations!

striktlymi: The above still does not show that Judas' decisions were made by God. Of-course he knew that Judas would betray Christ and later hang himself but this does not mean that he made the decisions for Judas. For instance, if I know that some time in the future, you are going to become a billionaire by having your own company and based on this knowledge, I choose to invest in that your company without influencing your investment decision, does this mean that I made your decisions for you?

striktlymi: Yet again, you make accusations you are yet to substantiate. I have demonstrated that there is no conflict between the decisions we make and God's omniscient. Judas was not forced to betray Christ; he chose to do it. You can say God only decided to make good a bad situation. Remember that Peter also betrayed Jesus but unlike Judas, he decided to repent of his sins.

striktlymi: Accusations without substance!

Refer to my earlier thoughts on the matter.

Thanks man!

striktlymi:

Mind telling us how?

inspiredbyGOD:.:
In that particular chapter, it is stated that Pharoah was raised up for that particular purpose in order for God to be glorified. Also, the verse tends to give the notion that God controls every aspect of our life and we have no say in the matter.