This thread is necessary because of muslims' claim that Kaaba was built by Abraham and Ishmael. I hope it will not be deleted because of the facts contained therein.

Ishmael moved from Abraham's house to Paran.

According to the Holy Bible Ishmael settled in Paran and married an Egyptian from whom he had twelve sons:

"Early the next morning Abraham took some food and a skin of water and gave them to Hagar. He set them on her shoulders and then sent her off with the boy. She went on her way and wandered in the desert of Beersheba. When the water in the skin was gone, she put the boy under one of the bushes. Then she went off and sat down nearby, about a bowshot away, for she thought, ‘I cannot watch the boy die.’ And as she sat there nearby, she began to sob. God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, "What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation.' Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink. God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer.
While he was living in the Desert of Paran, his mother got a wife for him from Egypt." Genesis 21:13-21

Paran was a place near Israel where Israelites operated

"On the twentieth day of the second month of the second year, the cloud lifted from above the tabernacle of the Testimony. Then the Israelites set out[b] from the Desert of Sinai and traveled from place to place until the cloud came to rest in the Desert of Paran.[/b] They set out, this first time, at the LORD's command through Moses." Numbers 10:11-13

"So Miriam was confined outside the camp for seven days, and the people did not move on till she was brought back. After that, the people left Hazeroth and encamped in the Desert of Paran." Numbers 12:15-16

"The LORD said to Moses, "Send some men to explore the land of Canaan, which I am giving to the Israelites. From each ancestral tribe send one of its leaders.' So at the LORD's command Moses sent them out from the Desert of Paran. All of them were leaders of the Israelites." Numbers 13:1-3

"At the end of forty days they returned from exploring the land. They came back to Moses and Aaron and the whole Israelite community at Kadesh in the Desert of Paran. There they reported to them and to the whole assembly and showed them the fruit of the land. They gave Moses this account: 'We went into the land to which you sent us, and it does flow with milk and honey! Here is its fruit.'" Numbers 13:25-27

Unless Muslims want to claim that Moses and the Israelites traveled from Sinai all the way to Mecca and back during their 40-year desert wandering, it becomes quite evident that Paran is nowhere near Mecca.

Ishmael Direct Descendant Lived in Shur (Not Mecca)

And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria and he (Ishmael) died in the presence of all his brethren. Genesis 25:18

The Settlers in Mecca were not Ishmael and his Direct Descendants.

Since Ishmael and his direct descendants were not in Mecca, those who moved to Mecca must be from his grand children.

Therefore Abraham and Ishmael could not have built Kaaba in Mecca because they were not there. They were not there to receive the 'black stone' Allah sent as a pointer and mark for the location of Kaaba.

Kaaba must have been built by pagans in Mecca and that was why they all brought their various idols (360) there.

Muhammad's grand father, Mutaleb dug Zamzam well making his own contribution. The man was said to be an idol worshiper.

thanks to the both of you.

I'm sure we don't need any of your side of the story, because we know it. We don't also need you to tell us that you don't believe in Islam as a religion, because we have our own sources of guidance (the Qur'an and Hadith).

Your religion for you, and ours for us.

golpen: thanks to the both of you.

I'm sure we don't need any of your side of the story, because we know it. We don't also need you to tell us that you don't believe in Islam as a religion, because we have our own sources of guidance (the Qur'an and Hadith).

Your religion for you, and ours for us.

You want to hold on to your religion even if it is not the truth?

Do you want to gamble with your eternity?

Would you tell God you didn't know?

Those who will regret the most are people who once heard the truth and never followed.

Since it has been proven to you that Kaaba was not built by Abraham and Ishmael because they were never there, for which reason you say it an holy place.

If Kaaba was built by idol worshipers, how will you tell God it was He you worshiped in this world?

Think and think about it and I pray God will have mercy on you.
Thanks.

pointblank 321:

You want to hold on to your religion even if it is not the truth?

Do you want to gamble with your eternity?

Would you tell God you didn't know?

Those who will regret the most are people who once heard the truth and never followed.

Since it has been proven to you that Kaaba was not built by Abraham and Ishmael because they were never there, for which reason you say it an holy place.

If Kaaba was built by idol worshipers, how will you tell God it was He you worshiped in this world?

Think and think about it and I pray God will have mercy on you.
Thanks.

Your situation is even worse than that of a pot calling a kettle black (cos I'm not a kettle anyway), because you proudly display your ignorance without WANTING to notice it. You rather hide under your hate theories and restrict yourselves from rationality.

I'm beginning to think some of you have been deployed to social media by your churches. ALLAH will take control of your lives.

If I become a christian, does the bible ask me to come to your church? Which church did the bible ask me to attend? Cele, cherubim, redeemed, jehovah witness, deeper life, MFM, CAC, which one?

Bunch of confused ignorants

golpen:

Your situation is even worse than that of a pot calling a kettle black (cos I'm not a kettle anyway), because you proudly display your ignorance without WANTING to notice it. You rather hide under your hate theories and restrict yourselves from rationality.

I'm beginning to think some of you have been deployed to social media by your churches. ALLAH will take control of your lives.

If I become a christian, does the bible ask me to come to your church? Which church did the bible ask me to attend? Cele, cherubim, redeemed, jehovah witness, deeper life, MFM, CAC, which one?

Bunch of confused ignorants

Accept Jesus first the issue of which church will come in later.

So, what you are saying is that worshiping arabian idol is better than going to church. The real church of God is not the names or buildings you mentioned.

The church of God are those who serve God in Christ Jesus. But note that there is noway you can serve an idol who called himself God and get to the true God. It is like knowing one's failure before sitting for exams.

pointblank 321:

Accept Jesus first the issue of which church will come in later.

So, what you are saying is that worshiping arabian idol is better than going to church. The real church of God is not the names or buildings you mentioned.

The church of God are those who serve God in Christ Jesus. But note that there is noway you can serve an idol who called himself God and get to the true God. It is like knowing one's failure before sitting for exams.

Thanks a whole lot

I'll take it as you sitting in the exam hall counting the ceiling, are asking me to dub your work. My idol is ALLAH and I'm proud of HIM. So you needn't worry yourself.

Thanks and don't expect a reply anymore.

golpen:

Thanks a whole lot

I'll take it as you sitting in the exam hall counting the ceiling, are asking me to dub your work. My idol is ALLAH and I'm proud of HIM. So you needn't worry yourself.

Thanks and don't expect a reply anymore.

Stop wasting your time with goons bro

lanrexlan: Stop wasting your time with goons bro

None of you is capable of refuting the thread. Your resort is abuse. Who is a goon? The person who is saying the truth or the one who is neglecting it?

It is like you have been hypnotized that even when you see the truth it doesn't matter to you.

Your brother, golpen said he is proud of Allah as his idol. It means he accepted his allah as an idol. I want to ask you too, is your allah an idol?

I would like to hear your view on this: Are you worshiping the same allah Abdu-Allah was worshiping as an idolater? What is the difference between the allah muslims worship today and the allah Abdu-Allah was worshiping as a pagan?

I learnt you do everything Abdu-Allah was doing to worship his Allah: doing ablution, facing Kaaba and doing all sorts of rituals including kissing the black stone inside Kaaba, which was the exact things Abdu-Allah was doing.

Why would Muhammad promote the religion of his father and call it islam? Would God send his angel to promote a religion that had been existing before and rename it?

Keep thinking about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByIh7TcrZRA

The OP didn't just stop at claiming Ishmael (as) didn't live in arabia.he went further to quote the very verses of the Bible which point out that Ishmael (as) lived in arabia."Desert of paran" refers to the arabian desert in arabia.also Moses (as) wandered 40 years in the desert.christians think he wandered between egypt and palestine.the desert Moses (as) and the israelites wandered in is in arabia too.check online about "Jabal al-Lawz".

LagosShia: The OP didn't just stop at claiming Ishmael (as) didn't live in arabia.he went further to quote the very verses of the Bible which point out that Ishmael (as) lived in arabia."Desert of paran" refers to the arabian desert in arabia.also Moses (as) wandered 40 years in the desert.christians think he wandered between egypt and palestine.the desert Moses (as) and the israelites wandered in is in arabia too.check online about "Jabal al-Lawz".

Your statement is untrue. The fact that Paran is a desert does not mean it is Mecca. Are you saying it is only in arabia we find desert? Does the desert in Nigeria make it Mecca?

Are you saying the Israelites were in Mecca in those references the Bible says they were in Paran? Mecca ko saudi arabia ni. Very simple thing.

You have made no point at all. It is like you gave your response in a hurry without going through the thread thoroughly.

Recent archeological discoveries along with Paul's own words in Galatians 4:25 clearly suggest that Mount Sinai is located in Saudi Arabia.  This means that Paran being south of Mount Sinai clearly means that it is the Holy City of Mecca

The Bible clearly says that Paran is south of Sinai in Egypt; "He said: 'The LORD came from Sinai and dawned over them from Seir; he shone forth from Mount Paran. He came with myriads of holy ones from the south, from his mountain slopes.'  (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 33:2)"

This verse is elaborated on further above.  Now, let us first look at Galatians 4:25, then the archeological evidence:

"Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.  (From the NIV Bible, Galatians 4:25)"


Christian Archeologists prove from the Bible that Mount Sinai is in "Saudi Arabia" today:


www.baseinstitute.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=102:bible-review-magazine&catid=65:bob-cornuke-biography&Itemid=84


www.baseinstitute.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52:is-mount-sinai-in-the-sinai&catid=36:mt-sinai&Itemid=66

@ ayenny02

I have these qustions for you:

1. Paul said Mount Senai correspond to the PRESENT CITY OF JERUSALEM. Is today's Jerusalem Mecca?

2. You are in forefront of those who believe Paul is a liar. I am very surprised you referred to his writing (Galatians 4:25). Is he no more a liar? Are you sure he was not lying here?

3. Do you now agree with Paul that Agar and her children (including muslims) are in BONDAGE?

4. When Paul talked about Hagar's children in Senai, he wasn't talking about her direct descendants because both Hagar and Ishmael had died very long when Paul spoke. How can you prove it was Ishmael that lived in Senai, Arabia and not his grand, grand children?

5. Ishmael lived in Paran, not Senai in Arabia. Are you saying Paran and Senai are the same city?

6. Are you saying the Israelites were in Mecca when the Bible says they were in Paran?

As for link sites, what do you expect them to say?

Please answer those six questions and omit none.

Now it looks like you guys finally got what you want... Arguments!!!

Anyway, let's see what you bring up this time. But meanwhile, giving me citations from the bible makes it look like you are forcing that scripture down my throat. You don't expect me to believe one thing your bible says when the 'oga at the top' is saying the right thing.

All the best men!!! Let's see how you mumble again.

golpen: Now it looks like you guys finally got what you want... Arguments!!!

Anyway, let's see what you bring up this time. But meanwhile, giving me citations from the bible makes it look like you are forcing that scripture down my throat. You don't expect me to believe one thing your bible says when the 'oga at the top' is saying the right thing.

All the best men!!! Let's see how you mumble again.

I'm surprised you came back again after you said there will no more words from you. Can't you follow your words? As far as you are concerned what you say should not be followed. Is that your integrity as a muslim?

Your wrong coming back has no meaning because you didn't add any new thing.

cleanvessel:

I'm surprised you came back again after you said there will no more words from you. Can't you follow your words? As far as you are concerned what you say should not be followed. Is that your integrity as a muslim?

Your wrong coming back has no meaning because you didn't add any new thing.

I've always thought maybe you need an english comprehension class and with these mumbles as I've rightly suspected, I'm just so sure of how worse your comprehension of simple english is.

I asked you not to EXPECT A REPLY any longer as regards our dialogue, but not that I won't be seen on the thread again.

And do you know why I won't blame you so much? I'm aware of the fact that the bible is full of half baked truths, white lies and MISCONCEPTIONS, which forms a high percentage of what your bloods is made of.

golpen:


I've always thought maybe you need an english comprehension class and with these mumbles as I've rightly suspected, I'm just so sure of how worse your comprehension of simple english is.

I asked you not to EXPECT A REPLY any longer as regards our dialogue, but not that I won't be seen on the thread again.

And do you know why I won't blame you so much? I'm aware of the fact that the bible is full of half baked truths, white lies and MISCONCEPTIONS, which forms a high percentage of what your bloods is made of.

Mr English teacher, what is the dialogue we were on? Was it not this same thread? Anyway it is your attempt to dance out of trouble of lack of integrity.

If the Bible is half baked truths, what do you call quran that is incoherent, inconsistent, incomplete and disjointed. And full of errors that allah had to be replacing many of the revelations, yet incompletely 'perfected' as we can still find many errors and contradictions inside it?

golpen: Now it looks like you guys finally got what you want... Arguments!!!

Anyway, let's see what you bring up this time. But meanwhile, giving me citations from the bible makes it look like you are forcing that scripture down my throat. You don't expect me to believe one thing your bible says when the 'oga at the top' is saying the right thing.

All the best men!!! Let's see how you mumble again.

I don't know how they expect us to accept falsehood, imagine quoting a book which perpetually contradicts itself with no remorse.

vedaxcool:

I don't know how they expect us to accept falsehood, imagine quoting a book which perpetually contradicts itself with no remorse.

There is no contradiction in the Bible but your misinterpretations.

The quran you call allah's revelations is not only contradictory but full of errors. Tell me, is it God that was that fallible? So inconsistent, incoherent, incomplete and disjointed book.

There is no history without the Bible. Does your quran tell you how and why Ishmael was separated from Abraham? Where do you intend to get the correct history of Abraham and Ishmael?

The truth remains Abraham and Ishmael did not live in Mecca. Therefore they were not the ones who built Kaaba, your holy place. It was built by pagans in Mecca, whose steps you are following. That shows which God you are worshiping.

ayenny02:


Christian Archeologists prove from the Bible that Mount Sinai is in "Saudi Arabia" today:


www.baseinstitute.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=102:bible-review-magazine&catid=65:bob-cornuke-biography&Itemid=84


www.baseinstitute.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52:is-mount-sinai-in-the-sinai&catid=36:mt-sinai&Itemid=66

poor u even ur Christian scholars show h
ow wrong u r. EOD

cleanvessel:

Mr English teacher, what is the dialogue we were on? Was it not this same thread? Anyway it is your attempt to dance out of trouble of lack of integrity.

If the Bible is half baked truths, what do you call quran that is incoherent, inconsistent, incomplete and disjointed. And full of errors that allah had to be replacing many of the revelations, yet incompletely 'perfected' as we can still find many errors and contradictions inside it?

You are yet to wake up from your somnumbulistic limbo of irreparable ignorance. you haven't found a genuine fault in the Qur'an. All you do is voice out your frustration and hate, showing off your jealousy in what your reverends have always cherished in the corners of their respective rooms.

Maybe I should put it this way, for your nursery faculty to absorb; I won't reply you again on this.

golpen:


You are yet to wake up from your somnumbulistic limbo of irreparable ignorance. you haven't found a genuine fault in the Qur'an. All you do is voice out your frustration and hate, showing off your jealousy in what your reverends have always cherished in the corners of their respective rooms.

Maybe I should put it this way, for your nursery faculty to absorb; I won't reply you again on this.

Why was ''Contradictions in Quran Part 1'' by truthman2012 sealed up? Why was the Part 2 immediately removed?

Keep indulging in self-deception. I pray you will not die in it.

golpen:


You are yet to wake up from your somnumbulistic limbo of irreparable ignorance. you haven't found a genuine fault in the Qur'an. All you do is voice out your frustration and hate, showing off your jealousy in what your reverends have always cherished in the corners of their respective rooms.

Maybe I should put it this way, for your nursery faculty to absorb; I won't reply you again on this.

I like your spirit brother and I pray you increase in knowledge. Howbeit, this is Ramadhan and I believe it is more rewarding spending our time praying and remembering Allah much rather than an endless debate with people who are wont to waste your time in the guise of learning about your religion while their intent is to misguide you.
May Allah guide them aright.

AbdH:
I like your spirit brother and I pray you increase in knowledge. Howbeit, this is Ramadhan and I believe it is more rewarding spending our time praying and remembering Allah much rather than an endless debate with people who are wont to waste your time in the guise of learning about your religion while their intent is to misguide you.
May Allah guide them aright.

Jazakallahu khairan bro...

Thanks for the check... I've actually stopped the replies for now insha Allah. it's just that these ignorants deserve an answer for their blabberings against Islam.

May ALLAH alwaysguide us away from the deceptions of shaitan.

Thanks bro...response stopped

golpen:


Jazakallahu khairan bro...

Thanks for the check... I've actually stopped the replies for now insha Allah. it's just that these ignorants deserve an answer for their blabberings against Islam.

May ALLAH alwaysguide us away from the deceptions of shaitan.

Thanks bro...response stopped

It is a pity. The Devil has blinded your mind and you cannot see or comprehend the truth. Keep fasting and praying ignorantly to an arabian god.

vedaxcool:

poor u even ur Christian scholars show h
ow wrong u r. EOD

How are you sure they are Christians? You people lie a lot to defend your false religion.

[quote author=vedaxcool]

AbdH:
I like your spirit brother and I pray you increase in knowledge. Howbeit, this is Ramadhan and I believe it is more rewarding spending our time praying and remembering Allah much rather than an endless debate with people who are wont to waste your time in the guise of learning about your religion while their intent is to misguide you.
May Allah guide them aright.

Jazakallahu khairan bro...

Thanks for the check... I've actually stopped the replies for now insha Allah. it's just that these ignorants deserve an answer for their blabberings against Islam.

May ALLAH alwaysguide us away from the deceptions of shaitan.

Thanks bro...response stopped

golpen:


Jazakallahu khairan bro...

Thanks for the check... I've actually stopped the replies for now insha Allah. it's just that these ignorants deserve an answer for their blabberings against Islam.

May ALLAH alwaysguide us away from the deceptions of shaitan.

Thanks bro...response stopped

Ameen.....masha'Allah.

cleanvessel:

It is a pity.The Devil has blinded your mind and you cannot see or comprehend the truth.Keep fasting and praying ignorantly to an arabian god.

Maybe we are praying to an arabian god or not,let's wait and see.Allah says in surah Al-Anam 6:164-''Say:Shall I seek a lord other than Allah,while He is the Lord of all things? No person earns any sin except against himself and no bearer of burdens shall bear the burden of another.Then to your Lord is your return,so He will tell you what wherein you have been differing''.....Peace.

cleanvessel: @ ayenny02

I have these qustions for you:

1. Paul said Mount Senai correspond to the PRESENT CITY OF JERUSALEM. Is today's Jerusalem Mecca?

He said "mount sinai in arabia".what else you read,only your eyes know.biblical mount sinai being in arabia shows arabia's spiritual importance.moreover our point is paran refers to arabia.bible scholars have said so.you can agree or disagree.

2. You are in forefront of those who believe Paul is a liar. I am very surprised you referred to his writing (Galatians 4:25). Is he no more a liar? Are you sure he was not lying here?

He's a very big liar.that doesn't mean he had no knowledge of geography.he is a liar in terms of his religious claims.

We can also pose your question to you in the other way: you believe Paul is truthful and was inspired.is he no longer?

3. Do you now agree with Paul that Agar and her children (including muslims) are in BONDAGE?

Check galatians 4:2 and romans 8:17.were you once slaves?

The point is your don't tell who others are.I choose to be free in Islam.whatever fictitious idea or mental condition you have about "bondage",keep it to yourself.

4. When Paul talked about Hagar's children in Senai, he wasn't talking about her direct descendants because both Hagar and Ishmael had died very long when Paul spoke. How can you prove it was Ishmael that lived in Senai, Arabia and not his grand, grand children?

You're beating around the bush.we are talking geography.paran is arabia,and mount sinai is in arabia (paran).we are only proving that Hajar (as) and Ismael (as) were once there.they stepped foot there.

5. Ishmael lived in Paran, not Senai in Arabia. Are you saying Paran and Senai are the same city?

Paran is arabia.mount sinai is in paran.there's nothing like "city" here".its an area and a mountain we are talking about.

You're obviously shaken.its great for a start.a good beginning for a transition to Islam.

6. Are you saying the Israelites were in Mecca when the Bible says they were in Paran?

As for link sites, what do you expect them to say?

Please answer those six questions and omit none.

Israelites crossed from Egypt to Mount Sinai in arabia.

It makes no sense they wandered between egypt and palestine for 40 years as christians are taught to imagine.it makes more sense they were in the desert of paran (arabia) for forty years,as it is wider.