debosky:

So who has determined that a shortfall has occurred and must be 'restituted'? How can it be determined if not in comparison to a 10%? How far back do we restitute? Do I 'repair' the harm done by not giving 'the tithe' since I started working? Do I calculate all the income I've ever earned and seek to 'restitute' through paying it all back?

You don't seem to appreciate the import of what you are saying.

No one decides for me how much I ought to give toward the welfare of my family. That much is my prerogative. The only thing that matters is that I do not neglect the needs of my brethren. Anytime I do, if I choose to "restitute" in any manner, it is none of your business.

Do you appreciate the import of what I am saying now?

Ihedinobi:

No one decides for me how much I ought to give toward the welfare of my family. That much is my prerogative. The only thing that matters is that I do not neglect the needs of my brethren. Anytime I do, if I choose to "restitute" in any manner , it is none of your business.

Do you appreciate the import of what I am saying now?

Ihedinobi, permit me to comment on this post particularly the bolded.

We wouldn't even be discussing this if not that a G.O leading a congregation of thousands or even millions wrote in a widely circulated book that 'God will send devourers if you do not pay tithe in arrears and add interest for good measure'

If it was just a question of what Candour, debosky or Ihedinobi decide to do in their heart, it won't be a problem. If that is Adeboye's style, good for him. But to peddle it as gospel truth is causing untold harm to the spiritual growth of baby Christians.

I'm glad that you at least are against the compulsive nature of the tithe messages of today but this message by Adeboye is one of the worst I've heard on this topic.

It promotes superstition and negates the work of grace. It is also not true. I've not tithed in years and have grown financially than when I tithed. My boss in my office joined Church of Christ(they don't tithe) in 1969 and has never tithed since then. He just opened a farm worth over 100million. He has Engineers and doctors among his children. He alone is testimony that Adeboye's message is faulty and can't be applied as Gospel truth.

debosky:

1 Corinthians 9

8 Do I say this merely on human authority? Doesn’t the Law say the same thing? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.”Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10 Surely he says this for us, doesn’t he? Yes, this was written for us, because whoever plows and threshes should be able to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11 If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more?

But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ.

13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

The last verse is what the principle is - receive their living from the gospel. Paul wasn't some word-shy or inarticulate person who 'forgot' or didn't know how to couch a sentence to say Christians should tithe. Instead he said, the commandment since that's what you're claiming is 'in the tithe' is that those who preach receive a living from the gospel - not tithe.

What was it you said that Paul said that I didn't remember? Was it not that "tithe is only one way to care for our own?" I don't see him saying anything of the sort here. I see you interpreting a silence - a most difficult thing for humans to pull off and generally a very presumptuous thing to do.

As to what he did in fact say, what did you say that I haven't said many times already? And how is it different from what "pro-tithers" say? Are we not all insisting that those who minister spiritually are provided for materially by those who are ministered to? Is this not what I have insisted is the principle of the tithe?

No - condemning the blatant abuse of tithe teaching is not stealing some of Christ's treasure. It is refusing to take radical steps to curtail a growing problem that ends up polluting the body further.

Jesus clearly said - if your eye (good in itself) will prevent you from gaining salvation, cut it off. Paul said along similar lines - all things may be 'lawful', but not all are beneficial.

Really, debosky? Is it not you who said, "move away from tithe altogether at first"? Is that the same as condemning abuse? Sometimes, you should take a breather and actually listen to the person talking to you.

Once you move away from a principle however badly abused and for however short a time, you WILL lose it. Satan hasn't grown tired of stealing things and his urgency grows with each passing moment today.

Your radical means are unacceptable, debosky. Have you found them in the Scriptures?

Candour:

Ihedinobi, permit me to comment on this post particularly the bolded.

We wouldn't even be discussing this if not that a G.O leading a congregation of thousands or even millions wrote in a widely circulated book that 'God will send devourers if you do not pay tithe in arrears and add interest for good measure'

If it was just a question of what Candour, debosky or Ihedinobi decide to do in their heart, it won't be a problem. If that is Adeboye's style, good for him. But to peddle it as gospel truth is causing untold harm to the spiritual growth of baby Christians.

I'm glad that you at least are against the compulsive nature of the tithe messages of today but this message by Adeboye is one of the worst I've heard on this topic.

It promotes superstition and negates the work of grace. It is also not true. I've not tithed in years and have grown financially than when I tithed. My boss in my office joined Church of Christ(they don't tithe) in 1969 and has never tithed since then. He just opened a farm worth over 100million. He has Engineers and doctors among his children. He alone is testimony that Adeboye's message is faulty and can't be applied as Gospel truth.

l

I understand. But if we would take issue because of the speaker, we should take issue with the speaker just like Paul did with Peter. I am dealing with the issue as a subject of debate rather than as something unworthy of the calibre of the speaker. If I could speak directly to the speaker or in his hearing, my tone would be different. I am speaking instead with my brethren none of whom said it.

Candour:

Ihedinobi, permit me to comment on this post particularly the bolded.

We wouldn't even be discussing this if not that a G.O leading a congregation of thousands or even millions wrote in a widely circulated book that 'God will send devourers if you do not pay tithe in arrears and add interest for good measure'

If it was just a question of what Candour, debosky or Ihedinobi decide to do in their heart, it won't be a problem. If that is Adeboye's style, good for him. But to peddle it as gospel truth is causing untold harm to the spiritual growth of baby Christians.

I'm glad that you at least are against the compulsive nature of the tithe messages of today but this message by Adeboye is one of the worst I've heard on this topic.

.

Adeboye keeps stooping to new lows all because of his love for filthy lucre, it's really so sad that this character is supposed to be a leading christian figure. May God save us from these gods of men.

There are two type of devourers – the ones sent by the devil (John 10:10) and the ones sent by God. To deal with the devourers sent by the devil, simply resist him and he will flee from you as long as you are in right standing before God. But to deal with the devourers sent by God, it is through restitution. You will have to cry to God for forgiveness and thereafter undo what made Him to send the devourers in the first place. Do you owe God in tithes, offerings, thanksgiving or vows? Ask for forgiveness and go ahead and pay what you owe. If it is in tithes, also add 20% as interest being the penalty for eating your tithes (Leviticus 27:31).


ACTION POIINT

If you tolerate devourers, God will do nothing about them.

was this written by a pastor in his devotional script...? i can't believe this...this is really sad...anyhow sha..happy independence!!!!

@Pastor Kun, what low is lower than a fervent denial of the Person of the Christ on Whom the hope of this world rests? That seems to be your own particular low. What right do you have to judge this man Adeboye?

Candour:

Ihedinobi, permit me to comment on this post particularly the bolded.

We wouldn't even be discussing this if not that a G.O leading a congregation of thousands or even millions wrote in a widely circulated book that 'God will send devourers if you do not pay tithe in arrears and add interest for good measure'

If it was just a question of what Candour, debosky or Ihedinobi decide to do in their heart, it won't be a problem. If that is Adeboye's style, good for him. But to peddle it as gospel truth is causing untold harm to the spiritual growth of baby Christians.

I'm glad that you at least are against the compulsive nature of the tithe messages of today but this message by Adeboye is one of the worst I've heard on this topic.

It promotes superstition and negates the work of grace. It is also not true. I've not tithed in years and have grown financially than when I tithed. My boss in my office joined Church of Christ(they don't tithe) in 1969 and has never tithed since then. He just opened a farm worth over 100million. He has Engineers and doctors among his children. He alone is testimony that Adeboye's message is faulty and can't be applied as Gospel truth.

The Problem with this so called great man of god, and Adeboye is one of them, i have his videos at home and sometimes i listen to this with a friend he has his PHD in Religion and knows the bible realy very good.

Adeboye is very clever he always pick out this bible quote where he tell his followers when you didnot tithe, or sow sees, or when you didnot give to God than you will have no luck, you will go to hell, but when you give all your moneywhat you have god will give it to you million times.

I hear also that this new churchprojekt didnot run like he want it, the money didnot come in like he hope it, but this is a secret from the inner circle of this church, i got this information yesterday tru a very good friend.

Candour:

Ihedinobi, permit me to comment on this post particularly the bolded.

We wouldn't even be discussing this if not that a G.O leading a congregation of thousands or even millions wrote in a widely circulated book that 'God will send devourers if you do not pay tithe in arrears and add interest for good measure'

If it was just a question of what Candour, debosky or Ihedinobi decide to do in their heart, it won't be a problem. If that is Adeboye's style, good for him. But to peddle it as gospel truth is causing untold harm to the spiritual growth of baby Christians.

I'm glad that you at least are against the compulsive nature of the tithe messages of today but this message by Adeboye is one of the worst I've heard on this topic.

It promotes superstition and negates the work of grace. It is also not true. I've not tithed in years and have grown financially than when I tithed. My boss in my office joined Church of Christ(they don't tithe) in 1969 and has never tithed since then. He just opened a farm worth over 100million. He has Engineers and doctors among his children. He alone is testimony that Adeboye's message is faulty and can't be applied as Gospel truth.

The Problem with this so called great man of god, and Adeboye is one of them, i have his videos at home and sometimes i listen to this with a friend he has his PHD in Religion and knows the bible realy very good.

Adeboye is very clever he always pick out this bible quote where he tell his followers when you didnot tithe, or sow sees, or when you didnot give to God than you will have no luck, you will go to hell, but when you give all your moneywhat you have god will give it to you million times.

I hear also that this new churchprojekt didnot run like he want it, the money didnot come in like he hope it, but this is a secret from the inner circle of this church, i got this information yesterday tru a very good friend.

Ihedinobi:
What was it you said that Paul said that I didn't remember? Was it not that "tithe is only one way to care for our own?" I don't see him saying anything of the sort here. I see you interpreting a silence - a most difficult thing for humans to pull off and generally a very presumptuous thing to do.

No I am not interpreting a silence at all, rather I am re-emphasizing what he said. If tithe was the only way to care for your own, Paul would have spoken exclusively about tithes in recalling OT examples. Instead, he referenced how tithe was used AND how other things - the things on the altar (e.g. heave offerings), muzzling the ox as it treads the grain. He talks about multiple ways in which this support was provided. If multiple ways were used, then there is more than one way - it's really that simple.

As to what he did in fact say, what did you say that I haven't said many times already? And how is it different from what "pro-tithers" say? Are we not all insisting that those who minister spiritually are provided for materially by those who are ministered to? Is this not what I have insisted is the principle of the tithe?

No it is not the same thing - harping on tithing as a principle is different from saying ministers should be supported (in a variety of ways) as a principle. How many principles do we have if tithe is a principle based on what Paul said? Principle of the tithe, principle of the guilt offering, principle of the fellowship offering?? Did the priests not receive support from all of the above? Why is it that only tithe is accorded the ‘principle’ tag?

Once you move away from a principle however badly abused and for however short a time, you WILL lose it. Satan hasn't grown tired of stealing things and his urgency grows with each passing moment today.

The issue here is what you regard as the principle. I said move away from teaching tithe - I don’t regard tithe as the principle, the principle is support for ministers. You can (and many do) legitimately fulfil that principle without ‘resorting’ to tithe. You lose absolutely nothing by not teaching tithe, because it is NOT a principle.

Your radical means are unacceptable, debosky. Have you found them in the Scriptures?

By all means. Paul said it when it came to meat - while he could eat meat, even that sacrificed to idols, he would curtail that right if it would lead another into sin.

Ihedinobi:

No one decides for me how much I ought to give toward the welfare of my family. That much is my prerogative. The only thing that matters is that I do not neglect the needs of my brethren. Anytime I do, if I choose to "restitute" in any manner, it is none of your business.

Do you appreciate the import of what I am saying now?

Completely - but, let's not lose sight of where we started. This talk of restitution arose because teaching being given to many, not about some personal conviction. This has never been about what Ihedinobi wants to do as his prerogative, it's about what is being taught as compulsory from the pulpit.

I highlighted that comment because it could be interpreted as endorsing what was written in that devotional, giving you the opportunity to clarify what you meant.

Ihedinobi: @Pastor Kun, what low is lower than a fervent denial of the Person of the Christ on Whom the hope of this world rests? That seems to be your own particular low. What right do you have to judge this man Adeboye?

dude shouldn't u be listening to Jared?

Ihedinobi:

Lovely, debosky, just lovely. Have you "circumcised" your face this morning?

Please, don't make a mockery of discussion. Circumcision is not used to mean "cut around". It is used to mean "cutting around the sexxual organs". Nobody has ever circumcised a field to my knowledge. Tithe, in language, always suggests a portion of the tenth. But I have defined clearly my use of it and justified it. My meaning cannot be misconstrued any more than Paul's meaning of a circumcision of the heart can be.

I don't circumcise my face, only the hair and I only do the lower half, so technically no.

Now seriously, I said the word's basic meaning is to 'cut around' - what it is 'used to mean' is a separate matter. The definition of a word and its general usage can be two different things. This is a distraction anyway.

You said you've clearly defined your use - how is it clear to say God doesn't care what percentage you give and say in the same breath that the principle is the tithe which means 10% or tenth? If he doesn't care about percentage, why is a specific percentage then the principle? If you don't see the contradiction in there, then again that's your prerogative.

uj_sizzle:
dude shouldn't u be listening to Jared?

I was. Were you?

debosky:

No I am not interpreting a silence at all, rather I am re-emphasizing what he said. If tithe was the only way to care for your own, Paul would have [u]spoken[u] exclusively about tithes in recalling OT examples. Instead, he referenced how tithe was used AND how other things - the things on the altar (e.g. heave offerings), muzzling the ox as it treads the grain. He talks about multiple ways in which this support was provided. If multiple ways were used, then there is more than one way - it's really that simple.

Not interpreting a silence eh? Read the bolded again and note the underlined.

Enough said.

No it is not the same thing - harping on tithing as a principle is different from saying ministers should be supported (in a variety of ways) as a principle. How many principles do we have if tithe is a principle based on what Paul said? Principle of the tithe, principle of the guilt offering, principle of the fellowship offering?? Did the priests not receive support from all of the above? Why is it that only tithe is accorded the ‘principle’ tag?

The offerings of the altar are all covered by the principle of the altar - the Cross.

Are you deliberately being obstinate? Principle of tithe is different from principle of support for ministers? What is the difference? I deliberately am not getting technical about this tithe debate. I lack the energy still to go in-depth. Suffice to say that a few months ago I had the opportunity to read through near two-thirds of the Bible starting from Genesis and going straight through books up to the beginning of Isaiah as a new read-the-Bible-through project I embarked upon. In that time I read all the instructions pertaining to the tithe at the same time as well as the unfolding of the practice and drew lines of reference and I think you are mistaken in some of your representations of the practice.

The tithing practice was a parable, an illustration of the principle you saw Paul develop. I am not saying that for the first time. It was God's Way of asserting His Ownership of and Lordship over Israel. And that was why He instructed that it be made available for the sustenance of those who looked to Him directly for their nourishment - the ministers who served Him for His People and the poor who could not fend for themselves. One time the tithes ceased. Do you know what happened? The Levites left the Lord's House and each fled to their fields. Do you know what happened to fix that situation?

The issue here is what you regard as the principle. I said move away from teaching tithe - I don’t regard tithe as the principle, the principle is support for ministers. You can (and many do) legitimately fulfil that principle without ‘resorting’ to tithe. You lose absolutely nothing by not teaching tithe, because it is NOT a principle.

I did not make up what I quoted you as saying, did I? You will need to make up your mind about what you are saying. Is it that we should condemn abuse of the tithe principle or message or whatever? Or that we should discard even if momentarily the tithe teaching altogether?

I could care less about what you regard or don't regard, debosky. Neither is at issue here. I did not say that I "regard" tithing as a principle, I clearly unequivocally claimed that it is a principle and have been defending my position with respect to it. It is no mere subjective notion.

If we lose nothing by not teaching tithing even correctly, explain to me why it has become fashionable to insult ministers of the Gospel indiscriminately. Where is this leaning toward driving men who would devote their lives to watching for their brethren to engage in other distracting activities to fend for themselves? We lose nothing? Only watchers on our walls? Only the stewards in our House?

By all means. Paul said it when it came to meat - while he could eat meat, even that sacrificed to idols, he would curtail that right if it would lead another into sin.

Wow! Physical diet is on a par with spiritual principle? Of course. Debosky, please examine Paul's rebuke of Peter and the rest of the letter in which it was recorded. How much curtailing did he do there?

Ihedinobi: @Pastor Kun, what low is lower than a fervent denial of the Person of the Christ on Whom the hope of this world rests? That seems to be your own particular low. What right do you have to judge this man Adeboye?

You don't need to lie against me or insult me just becos I don't support your baseless position. I have NEVER for once in my life denied the person of Jesus whom I consider my personal Lord and saviour. As a christian you should be more concerned that a prominent christian figure(Adeboye) who has influence over millions of christian could stoop so low to fraudulently manipulate sacred scriptures for his personal gain and further improvish already poor christians. I have not passed any judgement on Adeboye, I merely stated the obvious and that is he fraudulently twisted scripture in his devotional

@Ihedinobi

This principle of tithe you talk about, how is it to be complied with today?

If I want to follow the principle of tithe today, how do I do it?

Perhaps if you provide that clarification, it would help to understand your position.

debosky:

Completely - but, let's not lose sight of where we started. This talk of restitution arose because teaching being given to many, not about some personal conviction. This has never been about what Ihedinobi wants to do as his prerogative, it's about what is being taught as compulsory from the pulpit.

I highlighted that comment because it could be interpreted as endorsing what was written in that devotional, giving you the opportunity to clarify what you meant.

Forgive me, but perhaps it was you who didn't quite appreciate where we were coming from. I asked Enigma a very particular question and my perspective had nothing to do with how many people read that devotional or follow its author.

Ihedinobi:

I was. Were you?

On tv.

debosky:

I don't circumcise my face, only the hair and I only do the lower half, so technically no.

Now seriously, I said the word's basic meaning is to 'cut around' - what it is 'used to mean' is a separate matter. The definition of a word and its general usage can be two different things. This is a distraction anyway.

You said you've clearly defined your use - how is it clear to say God doesn't care what percentage you give and say in the same breath that the principle is the tithe which means 10% or tenth? If he doesn't care about percentage, why is a specific percentage then the principle? If you don't see the contradiction in there, then again that's your prerogative.

Have you read my "thoughts", debosky? I mean, the opening posts of this thread?

uj_sizzle:
On tv.

Oby's voice is a bit boring. Thank God I came out to thaw. Odawise dat tin wey happen for UN for do happen again!

Enigma: @Ihedinobi

This principle of tithe you talk about, how is it to be complied with today?

If I want to follow the principle of tithe today, how do I do it?

Perhaps if you provide that clarification, it would help to understand your position.

Big bro, I have already explained it and many times too. It's the same thing you have said, the same thing debosky has said and everyone else insists on: provide out of what you have a benefit for those who minister to you spiritually and the poor among our brethren. If anyone will put a percentage on what they will provide, it is their prerogative.

Ihedinobi:

Oby's voice is a bit boring. Thank God I came out to thaw. Odawise dat tin wey happen for UN for do happen again!

She sounds like she's doing a literary recitation

Ihedinobi:

Oby's voice is a bit boring. Thank God I came out to thaw. Odawise dat tin wey happen for UN for do happen again!

But you should go in anyway, she's making a lot of sense and you're missing it

Ihedinobi:

Big bro, I have already explained it and many times too. It's the same thing you have said, the same thing debosky has said and everyone else insists on: provide out of what you have a benefit for those who minister to you spiritually and the poor among our brethren. If anyone will put a percentage on what they will provide, it is their prerogative.

Fair enough, although in my view if we are drawing principles from the OT there are two more categories to be added to the bolded i.e. other poor people generally (even if they are not brethren) and oneself as the tither with family etc to make merriment and rejoice in the Lord. To ignore the latter two would in my view be picking and choosing from the purposes that God Himself said that the Old Testament tithe should be used for.

OK that said; it seems the discussion on the thread has got clouded because two things got mixed.

The first section of the thread where you outlined your view and even others coming from the other side (e.g. me) expressed theirs was quite harmonious and with friendliness. Even people who normally challenge the modern tithe teaching applauded your outline of your position.

The second part of the thread is that which follows the introduction of the pastor's devotional message. It was in the aftermath of that introduction that tones started getting less friendly on the thread. Although that is the aftermath of the introduction of the pastor's message I am glad I introduced it and for the discussion that followed it because it is necessary and important that we tell each other truths and seek in honesty to exhibit and if at all possible harmonise differences in situations like this.

Bros, I have to say that you carry a considerable part of the can for the reasons for the slight degeneration of the tone of the discussion. Let me explain: your position per se had not come under criticism. When criticisms were levied, they were directed at the pastor's message; your responses suggested you wanted to defend the pastor's position; the responses to you were not attacks on you but on the pastor's position. So, if you are defending the pastor's position, you would have to justify the things he wrote; if you want to say people should show some temperance in criticising the message, that is another thing.

Look, I personally have tried to exercise restraint in respect of the pastor's position; my real view of that message is one of extreme contempt and of the person who put it out of the same level as I would regard a thief!

So we have to make the distinction: appreciation of your expressed position and criticism of the message of the pastor.

Ihedinobi:

Forgive me, but perhaps it was you who didn't quite appreciate where we were coming from. I asked Enigma a very particular question and my perspective had nothing to do with how many people read that devotional or follow its author.

Really, Ihedinobi?

What was this very particular question based on - was it not in response to the devotional? Or did you, of your own volition before the devotional was posted, raise the subject of restitution of tithes by adding 20%?

Oh, and to show that I did/do understand where you were coming from, this was my post after you raised your question:

debosky: Is this a matter of 'if he so pleases' or something being passed across as an instruction with the explicit, unambiguous statement that one who does not tithe has made God send devourers?

This is not really about your opinion, except where you appear to be endorsing a dangerous teaching.

As for reading your initial thoughts, this is what you said:

Ihedinobi: God could care less what percentage of one's new wealth a person gives to say thank you for His beneficence to them.

If God does not care what percentage, why then is the principle one of a percentage?

The spiritual principle of the tithe is this: nobody who serves spiritually may lack and no poor among the brethren must be neglected. The principle is not the percentage, it is the function.

Have I misquoted you above? Principle of tithe + God does not care what percentage = contradiction. You may choose to say you've 'defined' this contradiction away if you please, but it is plainly there for all to see.

Ihedinobi: Are you deliberately being obstinate? Principle of tithe is different from principle of support for ministers? What is the difference? I deliberately am not getting technical about this tithe debate.

How can you avoid being 'technical' when using a 'technical' term - tithe? Forgive me if I appear obstinate, it is borne out of your definition. It may appear to be a technicality, but it is an important one - not everyone is as able to make fine distinctions as some of us may think we are able to.

The offerings of the altar are all covered by the principle of the altar - the Cross.

Oh? So please can you explain why Paul referred to these offerings of the altar (some parts of which were consumed by the priests) when referring to ministers getting their living from the gospel? Doesn't that make fellowship offerings (for example) qualify as a principle for supporting ministers too?

I think you are mistaken in some of your representations of the practice.

Please highlight where I am mistaken so we can discuss further.

I could care less about what you regard or don't regard, debosky. Neither is at issue here. I did not say that I "regard" tithing as a principle, I clearly unequivocally claimed that it is a principle and have been defending my position with respect to it. It is no mere subjective notion.

Ok - I disagree that tithe is a principle and your position isn’t borne out by scripture. If it were a principle, especially one to be followed by Christians, it would’ve been described as such in the NT. Oh, I may be ‘presuming’ based on silence again, but with no record of Christians being taught a principle of tithe, it is quite a well-grounded presumption.

If we lose nothing by not teaching tithing even correctly, explain to me why it has become fashionable to insult ministers of the Gospel indiscriminately. Where is this leaning toward driving men who would devote their lives to watching for their brethren to engage in other distracting activities to fend for themselves? We lose nothing? Only watchers on our walls? Only the stewards in our House?

How did Paul and other ministers of the early church live? Did they teach tithing? If they did please show where they did so?

Are the needs of the stewards so great or the hearts of men so hard that we need to ‘revive’ law practices and use the threat of curses to cajole people into giving?

When your position is alluding that failure to teach tithing will result in ministers leaving the work, you expose the same thinking that makes many of today's leaders find whatever means they can to keep the money flowing.

Pastor Kun:

You don't need to lie against me or insult me just becos I don't support your baseless position. I have NEVER for once in my life denied the person of Jesus whom I consider my personal Lord and saviour. As a christian you should be more concerned that a prominent christian figure(Adeboye) who has influence over millions of christian could stoop so low to fraudulently manipulate sacred scriptures for his personal gain and further improvish already poor christians. I have not passed any judgement on Adeboye, I merely stated the obvious and that is he fraudulently twisted scripture in his devotional

I accused you falsely? I insulted you? You have never denied the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Very funny! How many times have we locked horns over who and what Jesus is? Have you changed your stance? Do you now agree that He is God Almighty come in the flesh?

I insulted you? And you didn't insult Adeboye? Or he was deserving of your insolence? I accused you falsely? At least, you are here to defend yourself, are you not? Adeboye missed out on that luxury.

uj_sizzle:
But you should go in anyway, she's making a lot of sense and you're missing it

I did and I was blown away. I had to come out during the time-out earlier cos I was turning into an icicle in there.

uj_sizzle:
She sounds like she's doing a literary recitation

Yeah, she was sounding like that There was a tent outside and a screen. I was still "in" it.