Enigma:

Fair enough, although in my view if we are drawing principles from the OT there are two more categories to be added to the bolded i.e. other poor people generally (even if they are not brethren) and oneself as the tither with family etc to make merriment and rejoice in the Lord. To ignore the latter two would in my view be picking and choosing from the purposes that God Himself said that the Old Testament tithe should be used for.

OK that said; it seems the discussion on the thread has got clouded because two things got mixed.

The first section of the thread where you outlined your view and even others coming from the other side (e.g. me) expressed theirs was quite harmonious and with friendliness. Even people who normally challenge the modern tithe teaching applauded your outline of your position.

The second part of the thread is that which follows the introduction of the pastor's devotional message. It was in the aftermath of that introduction that tones started getting less friendly on the thread. Although that is the aftermath of the introduction of the pastor's message I am glad I introduced it and for the discussion that followed it because it is necessary and important that we tell each other truths and seek in honesty to exhibit and if at all possible harmonise differences in situations like this.

Bros, I have to say that you carry a considerable part of the can for the reasons for the slight degeneration of the tone of the discussion. Let me explain: your position per se had not come under criticism. When criticisms were levied, they were directed at the pastor's message; your responses suggested you wanted to defend the pastor's position; the responses to you were not attacks on you but on the pastor's position. So, if you are defending the pastor's position, you would have to justify the things he wrote; if you want to say people should show some temperance in criticising the message, that is another thing.

Look, I personally have tried to exercise restraint in respect of the pastor's position; my real view of that message is one of extreme contempt and of the person who put it out of the same level as I would regard a thief!

So we have to make the distinction: appreciation of your expressed position and criticism of the message of the pastor.

Big bro, I deliberately named only those first two categories because they were what the tithe covered. It is Christian to give even to unbelievers and to rejoice in one's substance, but the tithe does not go out of the Family. I am sorry that I keep dropping some things in bits and pieces but I still lack the energy to do a systematic study on the matter on Nairaland perhaps because I'm sick of the seemingly necessary animosity. But communion, that sharing of the table when we come together is not unlinked to the principle I continue to enunciate.

About the change in tone, I beg your pardon, my dear brother. I would rather have not commented at all on the message you posted. I am sick to the heart of the fad of spitting on everyone who speaks the word tithe. I asked the question I asked in the hopes of balancing things out. I totally disagree with the author and have been wary of many like him for years after spending all my life till my late teens molding my life after their teachings. I went perfectly antagonistic against them and the whole Prosperity movement from my late teens until very recently.

But I have learned that there is much that we would consign wholesale to the bin which contain a gem of Christ in them. The only thing I do not abide at all and have no sympathy on is a denial of Christ's Person. A greedy pastor I have ways to deal with besides the insane anger that used to consume me just at the sound of their names. Pastors who fail in doctrine and the work of the ministry are no novelty. Peter's case is a very glaring example. Look how Paul handled him. What about what Paul said to Timothy about rebuking elders? Of course, there are many corrupt and antiChristian pastors, but who are they and how do we judge anyone to be one of them? Is it even our place to attack them?

I stay awat from threads where this subject is discussed the usual way it is because I get really rude really quick when I sense obstinacy. I had no intention to spark off another insane row with my thread and I was content that we were all genial here. The way we discussed the pastor's message made me hope that any new entrant would appreciate that I still wanted geniality and sense. I did not find it funny to see a fight in the offing.

I'm moving on now except a certain someone decides to give me a fight that I don't mind multiplying. I have no intention to resist this particular fight I mean but I'm not discussing that message or tithing any longer, not here anyway.

@Ihe

Yeah, tithing can be contentious and raise temperatures and to be honest it has been a generally good natured thread even at that!

A couple of things:

1. I'm going to have to disagree with you about "the categories that the tithe covered". It very clearly covered foreigners and the tither himself. And to that extent the OT tithe very clearly went out of the family.

2. About castigating anyone who spits tithe: I think you ought to observe more carefully. Speaking for myself, I joined this thread because the prevailing tone seemed to be of a discussion for the purposes of mutual understanding than the usual fights. Also, it was actually this thread that triggered me into contributing actively to tithe threads again --- I had refrained for some time! I also note that two of the main discussants are not ordinarily given to fighting - even though every one can fall into the trap now and then.

3. Now the case of the pastor is not a case of just spitting on anyone who speaks tithe. In fact, the focus of the main contributors has been very heavily on assessing the very words of the pastor rather than his person. Even I pointed out that I wanted you to comment on what he wrote.

4. What is more, the pastor's message was brought as proof of the argument that what we seek to challenge is primarily the modern teaching of tithes and not individual choice. The message of the pastor is one of the clearest examples of what is wrong with modern tithe teaching and why the teaching must be challenged.

5. I think you would have helped matters considerably if you had indicated your stance on the pastor's message very early on. TBH, the way you reacted after the pastor's message was posted suggested that you agree with him in reality (even if differences in your positions can be detected).

6. Things you seem to be suggesting/supporting include: (a) the pastor's own understanding of tithing which is known to be compulsory payment of 10% on all incomes and earnings; (b) his Church's position that tithes are for ministers; (c) tithes are not for needy brethren; (d) tithes are money/financial, (e) his claim and understanding that God will send a devourer to non-tithers etc. You needed to make your own position on these matters clear early on or to make entirely clear that you were not defending the pastor's message or position. As I said before, the attacks were on the pastor's message; the problem was that it appeared you were making the pastor's position and yours to be similar if not same.

7. I'm sure things will soon normalise between the main discussants but one last point to make is that in addition to content of a message, knowledge that one has about the author of the message can also be a legitimate consideration.

Enigma: @Ihe

Yeah, tithing can be contentious and raise temperatures and to be honest it has been a generally good natured thread even at that!

A couple of things:

1. I'm going to have to disagree with you about "the categories that the tithe covered". It very clearly covered foreigners and the tither himself. And to that extent the OT tithe very clearly went out of the family.

2. About castigating anyone who spits tithe: I think you ought to observe more carefully. Speaking for myself, I joined this thread because the prevailing tone seemed to be of a discussion for the purposes of mutual understanding than the usual fights. Also, it was actually this thread that triggered me into contributing actively to tithe threads again --- I had refrained for some time! I also note that two of the main discussants are not ordinarily given to fighting - even though every one can fall into the trap now and then.

3. Now the case of the pastor is not a case of just spitting on anyone who speaks tithe. In fact, the focus of the main contributors has been very heavily on assessing the very words of the pastor rather than his person. Even I pointed out that I wanted you to comment on what he wrote.

4. What is more, the pastor's message was brought as proof of the argument that what we seek to challenge is primarily the modern teaching of tithes and not individual choice. The message of the pastor is one of the clearest examples of what is wrong with modern tithe teaching and why the teaching must be challenged.

5. I think you would have helped matters considerably if you had indicated your stance on the pastor's message very early on. TBH, the way you reacted after the pastor's message was posted suggested that you agree with him in reality (even if differences in your positions can be detected).

6. Things you seem to be suggesting/supporting include: (a) the pastor's own understanding of tithing which is known to be compulsory payment of 10% on all incomes and earnings; (b) his Church's position that tithes are for ministers; (c) tithes are not for needy brethren; (d) tithes are money/financial, (e) his claim and understanding that God will send a devourer to non-tithers etc. You needed to make your own position on these matters clear early on or to make entirely clear that you were not defending the pastor's message or position. As I said before, the attacks were on the pastor's message; the problem was that it appeared you were making the pastor's position and yours to be similar if not same.

7. I'm sure things will soon normalise between the main discussants but one last point to make is that in addition to content of a message, knowledge that one has about the author of the message can also be a legitimate consideration.

Ok, big bro. I get it.

About #1, I'll go look again to be sure.

Ihedinobi: @Pastor Kun, what low is lower than a fervent denial of the Person of the Christ on Whom the hope of this world rests? That seems to be your own particular low. What right do you have to judge this man Adeboye?

This is a public forum and you or any body for that matter cant just come here and start stating an odd view and say it is biblical and expect all to keep silent. No, not so.

Who cares about your personal views that are not biblical that it should superseed what is clearly written i black and white in the bible ?

"Devourer" for Christians ? And you say it is ok ?

Go earn a living and stop obtaining by tricks.Cant your likes earn a living ? Cant someone do things for God without pay ? Where is the love of God ?

How then can you have enough for yourself and then even have what to give from your earning to others as the bible says one should work and do ?

If all christians are to be disciples, who then should pay the other ?

Is the instruction not "go therefor and make disciples" ? matthew. 28:19,20.

When did it turn to, "go therefor and make tithe payers" ? Is it all about food and stomach ?

It should be a fraud star that should be preaching devourer and claiming to be a christian, is that not a Joke ?

If money was so important in this life matter, why then did christ have to die ? One should then have paid his way with God and will be in God's good book then.

Any way, christian giving is absolutely voluntary, i cant imagine where the devourer is coming from in a voluntary thing. Smh.

"Trambling at men is what lays a snare"

"The fear of man bringeth a snare.........." (Proverbs 29:25)

"The fear of man bringeth a snare.(Proverbs 29:25).

Ihedinobi:

I insulted you? And you didn't insult Adeboye? Or he was deserving of your insolence?

We should not call a fraudulent person a fraud again because you happened to be a poster on Seun forum right ?

In case you dont know, a wood worker is called a carpenter.

A brick worker is called a mason.

A Liar is called a Devil.

A con star is called a fraud star and more.

If it looks and backs and walks like it, then it is a ..........(fill in the blank spaces).

We all have the bible and can clearly see the obvious and what it is, not minding if he has a Jet or a bicycle. We call a spade a spade.

We cannot all be naive you know ?

@truthislight,as much as i believe dat U hv evry rite 2 air Ur views,i wud like 2 plead wit U as a christian broda 2 apply restraint in ur words..no more insults pls..lets make our view known and apply a full stop! Just a plea..nothin attachd..Tanks in advance truthislight.

"The fear of man bringeth a snare.(Proverbs 29:25).

Ihedinobi: @ Pastor Kun

I insulted you? And you didn't insult Adeboye? Or he was deserving of your insolence?

We should not call a fraudulent person a fraud again because you happened to be a poster on Seun forum right ?

In case you dont know, a wood worker is called a carpenter.

A brick worker is called a mason.

A Liar is called a Devil.

A con star is called a fraud star and more.

If it looks and backs and walks like it, then it is a ..........(fill in the blank spaces).

We all have the bible and can clearly see the obvious and what it is, not minding if he has a Jet or a bicycle. We call a spade a spade.

We cannot all be naive you know ?

brilapluz: @truthislight,as much as i believe dat U hv evry rite 2 air Ur views,i wud like 2 plead wit U as a christian broda 2 apply restraint in ur words..no more insults pls..lets make our view known and apply a full stop! Just a plea..nothin attachd..Tanks in advance truthislight.

Some people's back seems to need the rod.