I have thought several times on the statement Pagan9ja makes on religion especially Christainity and i asked myself 'Who is really the evil one..Is it the europeans that bought us as slaves or our Pagan traditional rulers who sold us to the europeans for their own selfish interest?'

Not that i support what the europeans did to our African brothers( infact i dislike what they did) in the past, but why did our traditional ancestors sell fellow blacks citizens just for brass, old hats, old socks and even adultrated Gin and drinks to the whites?

Pagan rulers sold us Africans to the white man and to accept their religion and now they are crying foul..Who is really the cause of Africa's problem?

Since i wasnt there, then i cant tell u exactly what happened. almost all religious books r pilled up frm history, and history sometimes may not be a whole truth.

old socks is a bit of an exaggeration bro.

sylve11: Since i wasnt there, then i cant tell u exactly what happened. almost all religious books r pilled up frm history, and history sometimes may not be a whole truth.

WHo is talking about religious books?...I am taking about history and you are talking gilberish...How did so many blacks get to europe aroung 15th century? Get some history books bro.

tpia@:
old socks is a bit of an exaggeration bro.

You dont know what you are talking about..Am sure you didnt even know what happened in the slave trade? Did you even know Madam tinubu when she was poor sold her fellow nigerians as slaves and made a lot of wealth from it?

joel lala:


WHo is talking about religious books?...I am taking about history and you are talking gilberish...How did so many blacks get to europe aroung 15th century? Get some history books bro.

Anyway i was trying to connect two things to ur question but so impatient to type, cos dats wht i hate. U asked me to get some history books? Anyway sooth urself with ur insults. Odabo!

sylve11:


Anyway i was trying to connect two things to ur question but so impatient to type, cos dats wht i hate. U asked me to get some history books? Anyway sooth urself with ur insults. Odabo!

I never insulted you however dont be offended..If you say something obviously you should have an idea of it and not otherwise.

Where is Pagan9ja

The formula is divide and conquer and it work perfectly on us. Slavery had existed in Africa before the european and Arab came. It more like debt bond, punishment for crimes, warfare and labourers. In some cases, enslaved people could work to buy their freedom. Children of enslaved people did not automatically become slaves.

The Atlantic slave trade developed after Europeans began exploring and establishing trading posts on the Atlantic (west) coast of Africa in the mid-15th century. The first major group of European traders in West Africa was the Portuguese, followed by the British and the French. In the 16th and 17th centuries, these European colonial powers began to pursue plantation agriculture in their expanding possessions in the New World (North, Central, and South America, and the Caribbean islands), across the Atlantic Ocean. As European demand grew for products such as sugar, tobacco, rice, indigo, and cotton, and as more New World lands became available for European use, the need for plantation labor increased. So what they did is cause disagreement in the society and the African start war against themselves. They will provide weapons and war strategies which will be used against our brothers. Who ever win the battle then take some prisoners of war as slave (this time around their brothers). But the concept of selling their families into slavery came after the european states those prisoners can revolt, plan coup and others so to prevent the bad fate on the new kingdom, they have to send them into a far land as slave and more likely not to return for attacking them.

As the demand for slave grows, greedy people like kings, chief, wealthy men and military power take the advange of the treaty to sell their captors into the land of no return. After some time, it grows to the point it order of the day.

Thats the past really....I cant throw blame on Europe or those greedy ancestors. The blame should be thrown on us. One we dont know our history and two we are forcing ourselves into modernized slavery. Indian were enslaved and colonized like Africa. They accept their wrongs and correct themselves. I think they are doing better in development today. The blame is on us....our ancestors made mistake but we still walk through that path....why cant we free ourselves and develop our own world? You and I are to be blame for that

FOLYKAZE: The formula is divide and conquer and it work perfectly on us. Slavery had existed in Africa before the european and Arab came. It more like debt bond, punishment for crimes, warfare and labourers. In some cases, enslaved people could work to buy their freedom. Children of enslaved people did not automatically become slaves.

The Atlantic slave trade developed after Europeans began exploring and establishing trading posts on the Atlantic (west) coast of Africa in the mid-15th century. The first major group of European traders in West Africa was the Portuguese, followed by the British and the French. In the 16th and 17th centuries, these European colonial powers began to pursue plantation agriculture in their expanding possessions in the New World (North, Central, and South America, and the Caribbean islands), across the Atlantic Ocean. As European demand grew for products such as sugar, tobacco, rice, indigo, and cotton, and as more New World lands became available for European use, the need for plantation labor increased. So what they did is cause disagreement in the society and the African start war against themselves. They will provide weapons and war strategies which will be used against our brothers. Who ever win the battle then take some prisoners of war as slave (this time around their brothers). But the concept of selling their families into slavery came after the european states those prisoners can revolt, plan coup and others so to prevent the bad fate on the new kingdom, they have to send them into a far land as slave and more likely not to return for attacking them.

As the demand for slave grows, greedy people like kings, chief, wealthy men and military power take the advange of the treaty to sell their captors into the land of no return. After some time, it grows to the point it order of the day.

Thats the past really....I cant throw blame on Europe or those greedy ancestors. The blame should be thrown on us. One we dont know our history and two we are forcing ourselves into modernized slavery. Indian were enslaved and colonized like Africa. They accept their wrongs and correct themselves. I think they are doing better in development today. The blame is on us....our ancestors made mistake but we still walk through that path....why cant we free ourselves and develop our own world? You and I are to be blame for that

Thank you FOLYKAZE for you contribution..but the drift is this..paganism has blamed christains/muslims and other religious sect for abadoning our traditions whereas they(pagans and pagan rulers) sold africans into slavery in exchange for mirrors, old shoes, old hats, adultrated gin etc..if our greedy pagan rulers didnt sell africans to the whites out of their selfish interest we would all still be practising our diverse paganism/traditional rites..paganism sold its blood brothers to slavery..

joel lala:


Thank you FOLYKAZE for you contribution..but the drift is this..paganism has blamed christains/muslims and other religious sect for abadoning our traditions whereas they(pagans and pagan rulers) sold africans into slavery in exchange for mirrors, old shoes, old hats, adultrated gin etc..if our greedy pagan rulers didnt sell africans to the whites out of their selfish interest we would all still be practising our diverse paganism/traditional rites..paganism sold its blood brothers to slavery..

Paganism do not blame anybody for ignoring pagan. Dont get things wrong.....ombatse cult is part of pagan group that force people into their cult but my tradition dont do that. Yoruba tradition for example doesn't make it mandatory that you belong to them. If you believe in their gods, you are free to worship and if you dont, you can dine with them. Nobody is forcing you to belief or practise pagan spirituality.

Here is where the problem come....christians and muslim preach against other religion belief. It sometime you know that christian will threaten you with hell if you claim to be muslim and muslim will threaten you with hell if you claim to be pagan. The worse condition is that christian look down on you when you pagan and sell bad words by blackmailing you. Have been to churches where satan, demon and devil was attributed to pagan. So I think it paganist right to defend what belong to them from evil people.

Also, paganism doesn't sell anybody into slavery. Greedy individuals does that. I think there is a saying that we cant buy our past back again but we can invest our money into the positive change for now and future. We in Africa now, are we shipped to America? The question we should start asking ourselves is what about our history do we know? Why are we merging our world into alien history? What has happenned came through carelessness and it a great defeat on us but have we return to our root and correct our mistakes?

Slavery is bad but how about people that are proud to be slave? India was colonized but they are returning to their root. What happen to ya.....proud been slave?

Let me reply since this thread was directed to me.


1) Pagan/Traditional Rulers and Tribal Chiefs NEVER sold their own people to the slavers. So stop saying this "our ancestors sold us" bull****.

2)As Tribals, only the welfare and benifit of our own tribes and ethnic groups mattered. We had no obligation to members of other ethnic groups.

3)Before the europeans came, there was a uniform system of warfare, trade and slavery, whereby the populations were naturally kept in check/balanced through these constant raids carried out on each other. A very recent example on a different level, can be seen among the raids and counter raids of Southern Sudanese on each others cattle, depending on grazing patterns and who is more drought affected. (which results in these drought affect raiders seeking better pastures for capturing the cattle of other tribes). The same exact situation can be noted among the Bedu Arab Tribals, 50-100 years back, before the discovery of oil.

4)The conquerors had no personal/racist bias against the slaves. In the African system, slaves were treated as part of the family, incorporated into trade guilds (if young, they served as apprentices), and later on even rose to higher ranks, especially so if they were from distinctly related ethnic groups. E.g., Jaja of Opobo, Tuareg Bella, etc.

5)The forms of slavery in Africa were closely related to kinship structures.Many slave relationships in Africa revolved around domestic slavery, where slaves would work primarily in the house of the master but retain some freedoms. Domestic slaves could be considered part of the master's household and would not be sold to others without extreme cause. The slaves could own the profits from their labor (whether in land or in products) and could marry and pass the land on to their children in many cases. slaves were not tortured, forcibly converted, starved, sent abroad to a point of no return, packed in crowded ships like animals, etc. Owing to their close proximity to their own tribal territories, they had a chance to return back to their ethnic group, either by buying their way out, or by being re-captured in a counter-raid.

Pawnship, or debt bondage slavery, involves the use of people as collateral to secure the repayment of debt. Slave labor is performed by the debtor, or a relative of the debtor. Pawnship was a common form of collateral in West Africa. It involved the pledge of a person, or a member of that person's family, to service another person providing credit. Pawnship was a common practice throughout West Africa prior to European contact, including amongst the Akan people, the Ewe people, the Ga people, the Yoruba people, and the Edo people (in modified forms, it also existed amongst the Efik people, the Igbo people, the Ijaw people, and the Fon people).
Military slavery involved the acquisition and training of conscripted military units which would retain the identity of military slaves even after their service.

[b]The viewpoint that “Africans” enslaved “Africans” is obfuscating if not troubling. The deployment of “African” in African history tends to coalesce into obscurantist constructions of identities that allow scholars, for instance, to subtly call into question the humanity of “all” Africans. Whenever Asante rulers sold non-Asantes into slavery, they did not construct it in terms of Africans selling fellow Africans. They saw the victims for what they were, for instance, as Akuapems, without categorizing them as fellow Africans. Equally, when Christian Scandinavians and Russians sold war captives to the Islamic people of the Abbasid Empire, they didn’t think that they were placing fellow Europeans into slavery. This lazy categorizing homogenizes Africans and has become a part of the methodology of African history; not surprisingly, the Western media’s cottage industry on Africa has tapped into it to frame Africans in inchoate generalities allowing the media to describe local crisis in one African state as “African” problem.[/b]
—Dr. Akurang-Parry, Ending the Slavery Blame-Game

6)the pattern of slavery in the African continent was similar in nature to that practiced by the Pagan Romans, earlier. There was no racist or personal bias. It was all part of the system of warfare.

7) Our traditional rulers were ignorant of conditions in the americas, until much later when the situation got extensive and out of hand. They truly realised the extent when the british govt., who after abolishing slavery, contacted many rulers to take a step forward and explained the suffereings of slaves abroad. This was the point when britain herself started sending out anti-slavery naval fleets. After this, many of our traditional rulers and even Queens start advocating against slavery. I do not remember the names, but I think chief advocates were among the Benin/Dahomey Empires, who were centrally involved in the trade. King Ansah of Ghana had the Fante people watch for European ships, and prevented them from coming ashore.

King Nzenga Maremba of Kongo tried to stop the slave trade in the Congo only after he originally participated in the trade in exchange for military items and support from Portugal. King Maremba agreed to release his African prisoners of war to the Portuguese who wanted the best (1470 - 1800) young African men as a bargaining chip to be sure the King kept his word. The Portuguese promised to train and educate the young men to become priests and later to return them to the Congo. King Meremba let the Portuguese convince him to take the Christian name, Alfonso, as a show of support. He was even forced to convert to christianity by the missionaries, in order to compromise for the benefit of his people. When Alfonso asked for the return of a few of his former prisoners, who had been trained to serve as physicians, surgeons, pharmacists, assistants for shipbuilders and carpenters, his requests were denied. After having his requests denied several times, King Alfonso learned that his prisoners of war had been sold as slaves in Portugal. In 1526, King Alfonso wrote to King John III, the former King of Portugal, and asked for his help in ending the slave trade in the Congo. He explained the freedoms that were given to the Portuguese, who had set up shops, become merchants in the Congo and had amassed fortunes. The people in the Congo could not do the same because they had complied with the agreement and now did not have the same abundance of wealth as the invaders. King Alfonso related that the damage was so great that his people and land were being seized daily. King Alfonso ended his letter to King John III with another request for his help because it was the will of the people in the Congo and other kingdoms that there should not be any trading of slaves nor markets for slaves.

In 1777, King Agadja, a Dahomean monarch, captured an Englishman and his slave raiding party who had entered his kingdom looking for more Africans. The Englishman and his crew were released after they promised to return all the Africans they had captured. King Agadja gave the Englishmen a warning to take to the rulers of England, that if any other slave traders were sent to his Kingdom, or other kingdoms, they would be killed. In 1787, the Senegal King of Almammy, passed a law that made it illegal to take enslaved Africans through his kingdom. To let (1470 – 1800) Europeans know how serious the law was, the king returned the presents French slave traders sent as bribes. Queen Nzingha of Angola fought a successful 30-year war against the slave traders of Portugal until the Portuguese negotiated a treaty with her in 1656. Their treaty remained in effect until she died in 1663.

The intrusion of a foreign element into an "ecosystem" will always have a bad impact on the whole ecology. the european outlook of slavery was different from the average Tribal outlook.
This was the point when the 2 systems artificially collided and resulted in damage of the existing system.
The system was further disrupted, with foreign slavers installing their own choice of puppet kings on the throne to further insinuate their vile acts. An example is the installation of a pro-slaver ruler on the thron of Dahomey, by the brazilian half-bred slave traders.

@OP if this your new strategy to put down our religions and our tribes, then the Gods help you.

It is disgusting.

joel lala: I have thought several times on the statement Pagan9ja makes on religion especially Christainity and i asked myself 'Who is really the evil one..Is it the europeans that bought us as slaves or our Pagan traditional rulers who sold us to the europeans for their own selfish interest?'

Not that i support what the europeans did to our African brothers( infact i dislike what they did) in the past, but why did our traditional ancestors sell fellow blacks citizens just for brass, old hats, old socks and even adultrated Gin and drinks to the whites?

Pagan rulers sold us Africans to the white man and to accept their religion and now they are crying foul..Who is really the cause of Africa's problem?

If your problem is ''paganism'', what do you say about the christians who came with the slave ships and did the buying, torturing, and selling of the slaves for profit back in their homelands? ie ''for their own selfish interests''?

What do you say about the christian armies that have slaughtered countless millions of people since the crusades, the inquisition, and the colonial conquests of the New World, Africa and south Asia?

Lesson: Evil works through ALL religions.

Pagan9ja


I quite disagree with you with your number 1 answer. However, I will like it if you can explain yourself more on that. Here is my view, some were captured by Europeans, others were captured by rival tribes and sold later to Europeans for guns and other goods. Some of the same people who did the capturing were later captured themselves. The Europeans were also known for playing tribes against each other like they did with the Native Americans. Divide and conquer. Yes, but you must remember, Africa is an entire continent. When the Asante rulers of now Ghana sold non-Ashanti people into slavery such as the Akan people of eastern Ghana, they did not recognise them as fellow Africans. Same goes for the Christian Scandinavians and Russians who sold their war captives to the Islamic people of the Abbasid dynasty, they did not see that they were selling fellow Europeans but rather they were selling prisoners of war.

Its not a lie its true we did sell them, they were from other provinces and kingdoms and were prisoners of war something we shouldnt have done... Africans kingdoms fought battle with each other back in the days and captives were taken and were thrown into prison or made to work, in which after they are released to start a new life and get married or go back to their native land (their choice) after serving their term, Africans thought the same would when they handed over the captives to the white people...the people were taken from our land and we have the history to show what really happened.

In fact there were the kings (and other prominent citizens) of the African states, and they were taking part in what was, for them, a normal trade. There were african warlords who betrayed their own people by capturing the slaves themselves and selling them for european products like clothes and things. When the slave trade was at its height, slave traders in the ports would send out requests for a certain number of slaves and the intermediaries would travel and collect them and sell them on until they reached the port. Sometimes they bribed the chiefs, sometimes they kidnapped them at gunpoint. Thus they might go through several owners along the way. Very few, if any, would be captured by the trading ships. Those kidnapped were kidnap by Europeans through the help of Greedy Africa people.

I dont throw the blame or guilt bait now......it past and our duty to change history. But if it other way wrong that we didn't sell our people out to do europeans, were we braided and packed into the ship just like that? I dont think it can be possible without our people having hand in it.

PAGAN 9JA:
@OP if this your new strategy to put down our religions and our tribes, then the Gods help you.

It is disgusting.

I thank you for accepting the invitation and i want you to understand one thing which is am not here to put down any religion but to show you how wrong you are for putting down other religions esp christainity..(BTW i still attend my town meetings/events etc but will never participate in any form of rituals)..Now lets continue

FOLYKAZE:


Paganism do not blame anybody for ignoring pagan. Dont get things wrong.....ombatse cult is part of pagan group that force people into their cult but my tradition dont do that. Yoruba tradition for example doesn't make it mandatory that you belong to them. If you believe in their gods, you are free to worship and if you dont, you can dine with them. Nobody is forcing you to belief or practise pagan spirituality.

My point of arguement here is not whether paganism is forcing anybody to accept her ways or not..My point is why did the pagan/traditional rulers and merchants sell its own blood and flesh( their own fellow african brothers and sisters) to the europeans all for their own selfish gains.. Pagan9ja has been chanting all this while how evil other religions are to the african society but forgetting that paganism sold our ancestors to the one he calls evil thereby making paganism evil itself.(Pls note: i am not justifying christainity or any other religion here).

FOLYKAZE:


Here is where the problem come....christians and muslim preach against other religion belief. It sometime you know that christian will threaten you with hell if you claim to be muslim and muslim will threaten you with hell if you claim to be pagan. The worse condition is that christian look down on you when you pagan and sell bad words by blackmailing you. Have been to churches where satan, demon and devil was attributed to pagan. So I think it paganist right to defend what belong to them from evil people.

What we should understand here is the differeence between christainity/islam and fanatism/extremism...A christain according to the bible should preach to the biblical unbelievers about the love of God and accepting christ as their Lord and saviour. Even jesus christ said he is here for the unbelivers and there was no where in the bible that showed were jesus was forcing pagans or some sect of people into believing in him..If the fellow refuses he should be left alone for his own beliefs..Now, anybody for example so extremist muslims that commit sucide by blowing up and killing others for not accepting their beliefs is just wrong and they are not practicing the true religion.

FOLYKAZE:

Also, paganism doesn't sell anybody into slavery. Greedy individuals does that. I think there is a saying that we cant buy our past back again but we can invest our money into the positive change for now and future. We in Africa now, are we shipped to America? The question we should start asking ourselves is what about our history do we know? Why are we merging our world into alien history? What has happenned came through carelessness and it a great defeat on us but have we return to our root and correct our mistakes?

Slavery is bad but how about people that are proud to be slave? India was colonized but they are returning to their root. What happen to ya.....proud been slave?

Now you are wrong here..

Did you know what the King of Bonny (in Nigeria) said when the slave trade was abolished by the europeans? Let me show you:

"We think this trade must go on. That is the verdict of our oracle and the priests. They say that your country, however great, can never stop a trade ordained by god himself."

I dont know anybody that was proud to be a slave and as for india, i think their slavery was due to war, i dont think they sold their people soley for selfish gains unlike what our traditional rulers and merchants did to fellow africans

Rossikk:

If your problem is ''paganism'', what do you say about the christians who came with the slave ships and did the buying, torturing, and selling of the slaves for profit back in their homelands? ie ''for their own selfish interests''?

What do you say about the christian armies that have slaughtered countless millions of people since the crusades, the inquisition, and the colonial conquests of the New World, Africa and south Asia?

Lesson: Evil works through ALL religions.

Now, one thing we should get clear is that i dont have a problem with paganism but rather with how pagan9ja has been ranting how other religion are bad indirectly painting pagaism as a good innocent religion too....Now you are talking about the christain ships that came and bought slaves but you forgot that if there was no seller there will definately not be a buyer..Check history, the same christain or europeans abolished the slave trade later on but the traditonal rulers, merchants and other rich men and women were not happy about it( are they not supposed to be happy that they wont be selling their own kins men anymore?), infact they still by-passed checks to sell more of our ancestors as slave to the whites at even higher prices.

Like you said evil works through ALL religion including Paganism

PAGAN 9JA:
Let me reply since this thread was directed to me.


1) Pagan/Traditional Rulers and Tribal Chiefs NEVER sold their own people to the slavers. So stop saying this "our ancestors sold us" bull****.

2)As Tribals, only the welfare and benifit of our own tribes and ethnic groups mattered. We had no obligation to members of other ethnic groups.

3)Before the europeans came, there was a uniform system of warfare, trade and slavery, whereby the populations were naturally kept in check/balanced through these constant raids carried out on each other. A very recent example on a different level, can be seen among the raids and counter raids of Southern Sudanese on each others cattle, depending on grazing patterns and who is more drought affected. (which results in these drought affect raiders seeking better pastures for capturing the cattle of other tribes). The same exact situation can be noted among the Bedu Arab Tribals, 50-100 years back, before the discovery of oil.

4)The conquerors had no personal/racist bias against the slaves. In the African system, slaves were treated as part of the family, incorporated into trade guilds (if young, they served as apprentices), and later on even rose to higher ranks, especially so if they were from distinctly related ethnic groups. E.g., Jaja of Opobo, Tuareg Bella, etc.

5)The forms of slavery in Africa were closely related to kinship structures.Many slave relationships in Africa revolved around domestic slavery, where slaves would work primarily in the house of the master but retain some freedoms. Domestic slaves could be considered part of the master's household and would not be sold to others without extreme cause. The slaves could own the profits from their labor (whether in land or in products) and could marry and pass the land on to their children in many cases. slaves were not tortured, forcibly converted, starved, sent abroad to a point of no return, packed in crowded ships like animals, etc. Owing to their close proximity to their own tribal territories, they had a chance to return back to their ethnic group, either by buying their way out, or by being re-captured in a counter-raid.

1. You are wrong here...Traditional/Pagan rulers sold their fellow people to slavers for gun powders, old hats, shoes and adultrated gin, metal etc..

2. Okay but why at a point in time, the rulers and elite merchants start selling their own people for selfish gains..

3. Am glad that you agree here that there was slavery before others came...Now did you know that in Benin kingdom the possession of a large number of slaves was a sign of the social status and prestige of a man or chief in the society. Enslaved people were used as the labour force in the domestic economy,n wars of conquests or expansion, for human sacrifices, and by the Oba in the maintenance and expansion of the guild system. New villages composed entirely of slaves were set up by the Obas and chiefs to increase farming productivity..http://www.britishmuseum.org/pdf/KingdomOfBenin_TeachersNotes.pdf

4. Jaja of Opobo is one of the very few kings that fought for the black's man freedom..I respect him.

5. You are somehow wrong here again..Some slaves that were captured were even used as human sacrifice in ancient benin kingdom and in the igbo land slaves that were captured or purchased were eaten as food(cannibalism) which they believed gave them muscular looks and physiques.

6. I agree with you here.

7. Your point here contradicts your number 1 point.

8. This doesnt justify the point that when slave trade was abolished, the traditional rulers were not happy and wanted it to continue..They said that it was the oracle and the gods that wanted it that way..when the slave trade was abolished the King of Bonny (in Nigeria) said 'We think this trade must go on. That is the verdict of our oracle and the priests. They say that your country, however great, can never stop a trade ordained by god himself.

joel lala:


Thank you FOLYKAZE for you contribution..but the drift is this..paganism has blamed christains/muslims and other religious sect for abadoning our traditions whereas they(pagans and pagan rulers) sold africans into slavery in exchange for mirrors, old shoes, old hats, adultrated gin etc..if our greedy pagan rulers didnt sell africans to the whites out of their selfish interest we would all still be practising our diverse paganism/traditional rites..paganism sold its blood brothers to slavery..

paganism isn't to blame for slavery but some certain greedy individuals. Btw Traditional rulers didn't sell their brothers or members of their community, people captured during war against other ethnic groups were sold, the only time people of the same ethnic groups were sold was if they were criminals. It had nothing to do with religion but economy.

joel lala:

Now you are wrong here..

Did you know what the King of Bonny (in Nigeria) said when the slave trade was abolished by the europeans? Let me show you:

"We think this trade must go on. That is the verdict of our oracle and the priests. They say that your country, however great, can never stop a trade ordained by god himself."

I dont know anybody that was proud to be a slave and as for india, i think their slavery was due to war, i dont think they sold their people soley for selfish gains unlike what our traditional rulers and merchants did to fellow africans

bonny has always been known as a wicked place, they were the one group of people I know that plotted against and kidnapped anybody they felt like, mostly based on grudges and little offence

joel lala:



1. You are wrong here...Traditional/Pagan rulers sold their fellow people to slavers for gun powders, old hats, shoes and adultrated gin, metal etc..

2. Okay but why at a point in time, the rulers and elite merchants start selling their own people for selfish gains..

3. Am glad that you agree here that there was slavery before others came...Now did you know that in Benin kingdom the possession of a large number of slaves was a sign of the social status and prestige of a man or chief in the society. Enslaved people were used as the labour force in the domestic economy,n wars of conquests or expansion, for human sacrifices, and by the Oba in the maintenance and expansion of the guild system. New villages composed entirely of slaves were set up by the Obas and chiefs to increase farming productivity..http://www.britishmuseum.org/pdf/KingdomOfBenin_TeachersNotes.pdf

4. Jaja of Opobo is one of the very few kings that fought for the black's man freedom..I respect him.

5. You are somehow wrong here again..Some slaves that were captured were even used as human sacrifice in ancient benin kingdom and in the igbo land slaves that were captured or purchased were eaten as food(cannibalism) which they believed gave them muscular looks and physiques.

6. I agree with you here.

7. Your point here contradicts your number 1 point.

8. This doesnt justify the point that when slave trade was abolished, the traditional rulers were not happy and wanted it to continue..They said that it was the oracle and the gods that wanted it that way..when the slave trade was abolished the King of Bonny (in Nigeria) said 'We think this trade must go on. That is the verdict of our oracle and the priests. They say that your country, however great, can never stop a trade ordained by god himself.

you talk as if only Africans kept domestic slaves. Kings are the most important personality in their kingdom and should have all the help they need and that's the job of slaves. When people are captured from war wat do u do with them? Use them as slaves to help out in ur community. And these slaves were never discriminated against and were treated as members of the community(however this doesn't apply for all ethnic groups of Africa).

Since when did bonny constitute the whole of Africa? That's how the killing of twins in ONLY CALABAR is attached to The whole of Africa

FOLYKAZE: Pagan9ja


I quite disagree with you with your number 1 answer. However, I will like it if you can explain yourself more on that. Here is my view, some were captured by Europeans, others were captured by rival tribes and sold later to Europeans for guns and other goods. Some of the same people who did the capturing were later captured themselves. The Europeans were also known for playing tribes against each other like they did with the Native Americans. Divide and conquer. Yes, but you must remember, Africa is an entire continent. When the Asante rulers of now Ghana sold non-Ashanti people into slavery such as the Akan people of eastern Ghana, they did not recognise them as fellow Africans. Same goes for the Christian Scandinavians and Russians who sold their war captives to the Islamic people of the Abbasid dynasty, they did not see that they were selling fellow Europeans but rather they were selling prisoners of war.

Its not a lie its true we did sell them, they were from other provinces and kingdoms and were prisoners of war something we shouldnt have done... Africans kingdoms fought battle with each other back in the days and captives were taken and were thrown into prison or made to work, in which after they are released to start a new life and get married or go back to their native land (their choice) after serving their term, Africans thought the same would when they handed over the captives to the white people...the people were taken from our land and we have the history to show what really happened.

In fact there were the kings (and other prominent citizens) of the African states, and they were taking part in what was, for them, a normal trade. There were african warlords who betrayed their own people by capturing the slaves themselves and selling them for european products like clothes and things. When the slave trade was at its height, slave traders in the ports would send out requests for a certain number of slaves and the intermediaries would travel and collect them and sell them on until they reached the port. Sometimes they bribed the chiefs, sometimes they kidnapped them at gunpoint. Thus they might go through several owners along the way. Very few, if any, would be captured by the trading ships. Those kidnapped were kidnap by Europeans through the help of Greedy Africa people.

I dont throw the blame or guilt bait now......it past and our duty to change history. But if it other way wrong that we didn't sell our people out to do europeans, were we braided and packed into the ship just like that? I dont think it can be possible without our people having hand in it.

Sorry, i actually just read this your post now and i want to thank you for your sincerity here especially in the bolded and i agree with you that it is in the past(although it has affected us immersely both religiously, politically and other wise) we should strive hard to move the continent forward to greater heights...

FOLYKAZE: Pagan9ja


I quite disagree with you with your number 1 answer. However, I will like it if you can explain yourself more on that. Here is my view, some were captured by Europeans, others were captured by rival tribes and sold later to Europeans for guns and other goods. Some of the same people who did the capturing were later captured themselves. The Europeans were also known for playing tribes against each other like they did with the Native Americans. Divide and conquer. Yes, but you must remember, Africa is an entire continent. When the Asante rulers of now Ghana sold non-Ashanti people into slavery such as the Akan people of eastern Ghana, they did not recognise them as fellow Africans. Same goes for the Christian Scandinavians and Russians who sold their war captives to the Islamic people of the Abbasid dynasty, they did not see that they were selling fellow Europeans but rather they were selling prisoners of war.

Its not a lie its true we did sell them, they were from other provinces and kingdoms and were prisoners of war something we shouldnt have done... Africans kingdoms fought battle with each other back in the days and captives were taken and were thrown into prison or made to work, in which after they are released to start a new life and get married or go back to their native land (their choice) after serving their term, Africans thought the same would when they handed over the captives to the white people...the people were taken from our land and we have the history to show what really happened.

In fact there were the kings (and other prominent citizens) of the African states, and they were taking part in what was, for them, a normal trade. There were african warlords who betrayed their own people by capturing the slaves themselves and selling them for european products like clothes and things. When the slave trade was at its height, slave traders in the ports would send out requests for a certain number of slaves and the intermediaries would travel and collect them and sell them on until they reached the port. Sometimes they bribed the chiefs, sometimes they kidnapped them at gunpoint. Thus they might go through several owners along the way. Very few, if any, would be captured by the trading ships. Those kidnapped were kidnap by Europeans through the help of Greedy Africa people.

I dont throw the blame or guilt bait now......it past and our duty to change history. But if it other way wrong that we didn't sell our people out to do europeans, were we braided and packed into the ship just like that? I dont think it can be possible without our people having hand in it.

you just answered yourself. Different tribes have always been capturing and selling each other. But never their own people.

They were naturally not racists so they never recognized a "BLACK" people. IT meant nothing to them and it still doesn't mean anything.

The artificial interference of the europeans into the natural order of the African people is what caused the greatest destruction..

joel lala:



1. You are wrong here...Traditional/Pagan rulers sold their fellow people to slavers for gun powders, old hats, shoes and adultrated gin, metal etc..

2. Okay but why at a point in time, the rulers and elite merchants start selling their own people for selfish gains..

3. Am glad that you agree here that there was slavery before others came...Now did you know that in Benin kingdom the possession of a large number of slaves was a sign of the social status and prestige of a man or chief in the society. Enslaved people were used as the labour force in the domestic economy,n wars of conquests or expansion, for human sacrifices, and by the Oba in the maintenance and expansion of the guild system. New villages composed entirely of slaves were set up by the Obas and chiefs to increase farming productivity..http://www.britishmuseum.org/pdf/KingdomOfBenin_TeachersNotes.pdf

4. Jaja of Opobo is one of the very few kings that fought for the black's man freedom..I respect him.

5. You are somehow wrong here again..Some slaves that were captured were even used as human sacrifice in ancient benin kingdom and in the igbo land slaves that were captured or purchased were eaten as food(cannibalism) which they believed gave them muscular looks and physiques.

6. I agree with you here.

7. Your point here contradicts your number 1 point.

8. This doesnt justify the point that when slave trade was abolished, the traditional rulers were not happy and wanted it to continue..They said that it was the oracle and the gods that wanted it that way..when the slave trade was abolished the King of Bonny (in Nigeria) said 'We think this trade must go on. That is the verdict of our oracle and the priests. They say that your country, however great, can never stop a trade ordained by god himself.

1. NEVER their own people. this could lead to large scale tribal revolt.

2. no they didnt. if you are talking about 1 or 2 stray cases, plz back up with proof.

3.OFcourse I know all that. so why are you telling me this? How can you compare this to christian slavery, racism, torture, forced conversion, deculturization, shipping to a point of no return, etc. ?

4. Jaja is a typical example of African Tribal slavery. HE was allowed the opportunity to "earn" his way out of slavery.

7.NO it doesn't contradict 1. if it does, please explain how.

8. Im not from Bonny and I dont care. Bonny was the most important slave port and you can imagine what impact the large scale exportation of slaves from that 1 point and the amount of revenue it brought, could cause on the chiefs of the area.
and btw if this is true, please back it up with proof.

joel lala:


Now, one thing we should get clear is that i dont have a problem with paganism but rather with how pagan9ja has been ranting how other religion are bad indirectly painting pagaism as a good innocent religion too....Now you are talking about the christain ships that came and bought slaves but you forgot that if there was no seller there will definately not be a buyer..Check history, the same christain or europeans abolished the slave trade later on but the traditonal rulers, merchants and other rich men and women were not happy about it( are they not supposed to be happy that they wont be selling their own kins men anymore?), infact they still by-passed checks to sell more of our ancestors as slave to the whites at even higher prices.

Like you said evil works through ALL religion including Paganism

It was not decreed by Paganism, neither was religious conversion of slaves and their torture (as the bible says that slaves must do as the master pleases).

PAGAN 9JA:



It was not decreed by Paganism, neither was religious conversion of slaves and their torture (as the bible says that slaves must do as the master pleases).

Okay, but lets hear what the King of Bonny had to say when the slave trade was abolished:

"We think this trade must go on. That is the verdict of our oracle and the priests. They say that your country, however great, can never stop a trade ordained by god himself." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade


From the bolded, their oracle god and priests have consulted and found it ok to continue the sale of their own Africans as slaves.

joel lala:


Now, one thing we should get clear is that i dont have a problem with paganism but rather with how pagan9ja has been ranting how other religion are bad indirectly painting pagaism as a good innocent religion too....

There is no religion known as paganism. Are you aware of that?

Now you are talking about the christain ships that came and bought slaves but you forgot that if there was no seller there will definately not be a buyer

And if there is no buyer there will be no seller either. Are you aware of that?

..Check history, the same christain or europeans abolished the slave trade later on but the traditonal rulers, merchants and other rich men and women were not happy about it

The reasons the Europeans abolished the trade were not borne out of altruism. The task of building plantations and cities had been done.
And growing industrialization and machine use meant there was no need to keep importing slaves. They needed to loot the natural RESOURCES of Africa to help power the industrial revolution, so COLONISATION (political takeover) was their next task.

It is as a result of that COLONISATION initiated by the Europeans to loot African resources that YOU are a 'christian' today.

Your christian identity is your badge, your stamp of subjugation, identifying you as a victim of theft and military conquest.

@Rossikk, i thank you for your contribution and i will reply your post soonest, however i want you to please check for the definations of PAGANISM either online via google or you can check various dictionaries(oxford dictionary etc) and then confirm if religion isnt attached to paganism or if paganism isnt a form religion..

joel lala: @Rossikk, i thank you for your contribution and i will reply your post soonest, however i want you to please check for the definations of PAGANISM either online via google or you can check various dictionaries(oxford dictionary etc) and then confirm if religion isnt attached to paganism or if paganism isnt a form religion..

paganism are indigenous religions. It is not a singular religion on it's own. It comprises of all forms of spirituality practised along aside the cultures and traditions of a group of people. every ethnic group has it's own pagan religion. And it signifies mental independence and tribal patriotism.

Rossikk:

There is no religion known as paganism. Are you aware of that?

Defination of paganism:

1. Any of various religions other than Christianity or Judaism or Islamism.

wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn


2. One of a people or community observing a polytheistic religion.
dictionary.reference.com/browse/pagan

3. Paganism represents a wide variety of traditions that emphasize reverence for nature and a revival of ancient polytheistic and animistic religious practices

www.patheos.com/Library/Pagan.html‎

Rossikk: And if there is no buyer there will be no seller either. Are you aware of that?

Likewise if there are no sellers there will be no buyer..so am fully aware thats why both parties are to blame.

Rossikk:
The reasons the Europeans abolished the trade were not borne out of altruism. The task of building plantations and cities had been done.
And growing industrialization and machine use meant there was no need to keep importing slaves. They needed to loot the natural RESOURCES of Africa to help power the industrial revolution, so COLONISATION (political takeover) was their next task.

It is as a result of that COLONISATION initiated by the Europeans to loot African resources that YOU are a 'christian' today.

Your christian identity is your badge, your stamp of subjugation, identifying you as a victim of theft and military conquest.

Not so true..Are you aware that there were several anti slavery campaignes in europe as at that era of slave trade by humanitarian activist?

In 1787 a committee of twelve was appointed, including six members of the Society of Friends (Quakers). The Quakers had set up a committee of their own in 1783 in order to obtain and publish "such information as may tend to the abolition of the slave trade." Two other members of the committee were Thomas Clarkson and Granville Sharp. These men in particular went to great lengths to collect evidence, finding out precisely how little space was allotted to slaves on the ships and similar details. They began to publish pamphlets to stir public opinion against the trade.....http://www.victorianweb.org/history/antislavery.html

Also,

The struggle to end the transatlantic slave trade and slavery was achieved by African resistance and economic factors as well as through humanitarian campaigns.

The most prominent abolitionists, notably Thomas Clarkson and William Wilberforce, were great publicists. Wilberforce (1759-1833) led the British parliamentary campaign to abolish the slave trade and slavery.

Opinion in Europe was also changing. Moral, religious and humanitarian arguments found more and more support. A vigorous campaign to achieve abolition began in Britain in 1783 and also developed in North America and the Caribbean, often led by the Black churches. In Britain, Thomas Clarkson (1760-1846) was another prominent campaigner who was principally responsible for collecting evidence against the trade. Clarkson was a founder member of the society for effecting the abolition of the slave trade in 1787....http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/ism/slavery/europe/abolition.aspx

macof: paganism are indigenous religions. It is not a singular religion on it's own. It comprises of all forms of spirituality practised along aside the cultures and traditions of a group of people. every ethnic group has it's own pagan religion. And it signifies mental independence and tribal patriotism.

Whether paganism involves indigenous religion still means it is a form of religion of it own that is totally different from the christain, islamic or judaism religion..Paganism believes in the worship of sevral godss unlike the rest of other religion..However, paganism is still a form of religion..QED