Italo.....you have been thoroughly debunked......you have no points....christianity is not good for Nigerians.

I've always thought communism is anti-religion (i.e. religion in its real sense). However, some have compared the similarities between the way religion works and the way communism works. That position is however, very debatable. Communism has always fought against religion (Islam, Christianity, Buddhism etc.).

Communism's fight against religion started to take a somewhat religious form in itself, hence the argument by some that communism is a religion. I don't think communism endorses the idea of a man living in the sky directing all things though. So, I guess we might need to define what we mean by "religion". Saying communism is a religion can also lead to us labeling Atheism as a religion. They both have their "religious" tendencies. I guess it is better to define religion in its "traditional" sense. Whatever that means.....

ThaProphet: I've always thought communism is anti-religion (i.e. religion in its real sense). However, some have compared the similarities between the way religion works and the way communism works. That position is however, very debatable. Communism has always fought against religion (Islam, Christianity, Buddhism etc.).

Communism's fight against religion started to take a somewhat religious form in itself, hence the argument by some that communism is a religion. I don't think communism endorses the idea of a man living in the sky directing all things though. So, I guess we might need to define what we mean by "religion". Saying communism is a religion can also lead to us labeling Atheism as a religion. They both have their "religious" tendencies. I guess it is better to define religion in its "traditional" sense. Whatever that means.....

Many types of Buddhism has no god as well. There are atheistic religions.There is religion without God


Atheism itself is not a religion and can not be. It is a disbelief not a belief.

As for communism- it has everything a religion needs
-worship of an entity- the state
-rituals
-faith (in the power of the state)
-symbols
-organised
etc

ThaProphet: I've always thought communism is anti-religion (i.e. religion in its real sense). However, some have compared the similarities between the way religion works and the way communism works. That position is however, very debatable. Communism has always fought against religion (Islam, Christianity, Buddhism etc.).

Communism's fight against religion started to take a somewhat religious form in itself, hence the argument by some that communism is a religion. I don't think communism endorses the idea of a man living in the sky directing all things though. So, I guess we might need to define what we mean by "religion". Saying communism is a religion can also lead to us labeling Atheism as a religion. They both have their "religious" tendencies. I guess it is better to define religion in its "traditional" sense. Whatever that means.....

Communism is no religion it is an economic system and it it didnot work.

Why the people fight against communism in Europa, can you tell me one country which still has communism where the people have a free speach.

In china when you say something against the goverment you will end in jail. North Korea the people live in fear, what is with the other countries who have still communism is there economic good no.

Christian religion is not bad when it is teached the right way not like it is teached and preached in most of the african countries.

The new chistian churches like you have it in nigeria that are the problem. A church who tell there followers when they didnot go tho this 4 day event than God will make something bad with them, sorry that is the wrong way.

Logicboy03:


Many types of Buddhism has no god as well. There are atheistic religions.There is religion without God


Atheism itself is not a religion and can not be. It is a disbelief not a belief.

As for communism- it has everything a religion needs
-worship of an entity- the state
-rituals
-faith (in the power of the state)
-symbols
-organised
etc

Absolutely! Hence I said it is not a religion in the traditional sense. Communism itself is anti-religion(traditional religion). I do think atheism can have religious tendencies depending on the individual. I've met atheists who exhibit the features they condemn in other religions as well. You know, questions that are not supposed to be asked, irrational thinking etc. But like i said, it depends on the individual.

nora544:

Communism is no religion it is an economic system and it it didnot work.

Why the people fight against communism in Europa, can you tell me one country which still has communism where the people have a free speach.

In china when you say something against the goverment you will end in jail. North Korea the people live in fear, what is with the other countries who have still communism is there economic good no.

Christian religion is not bad when it is teached the right way not like it is teached and preached in most of the african countries.

The new chistian churches like you have it in nigeria that are the problem. A church who tell there followers when they didnot go tho this 4 day event than God will make something bad with them, sorry that is the wrong way.

Ok. I don't think I was actually promoting communism, was I? I was merely addressing the communism/religion nexus.

Some of the ills you mentioned are evident in non-communist societies as well, you know? That is however besides the point.

Don't worry, I am not a communist

ThaProphet:

Ok. I don't think I was actually promoting communism, was I? I was merely addressing the communism/religion nexus.

Some of the ills you mentioned are evident in non-communist societies as well, you know? That is however besides the point.

Don't worry, I am not a communist

I feel that but i want to show that communism is also nothing what is good for people.

nora544:

I feel that but i want to show that communism is also nothing what is good for people.

Ah...I see

Of course, that is only your opinion.

And it is of no worth.

Logicboy03: Italo.....you have been thoroughly debunked......you have no points....christianity is not good for Nigerians.

I'd rather live in "religious" Nigeria than in Atheistic North Korea.

why do ppl send what they feel so blindly to internet pages? Blaming religion for d calamity that has befallen nigeria, isn't just write...why don't u blame man's own greed and corruption?! remember we are all humans? to blame a religion for a particular incidence witout first studyin what that religion teaches or just saying "its all religion" without checking the men who claim to profess these religion (seeing that its its adherents that are corrupt)...its just plain "intellectual dishonesty and hate"

This same religion that some foolishly curse and blaspheme has been what stopped so many absurd pratices that u encourage nigerians to continue practicing! Blindly looking for where to shift the blame won't work! Some of u owe ur being alive today to some of those religions, no matter how much u hate it.

Wat is atheism? "Its a disbelief and not a belief"? Well its a belief that "there is no entity as a god(s)/goddess(es)"....so atheism is far frm not being a belief...

I say Nigerians are excessively gullible for a reason--I didn't just make it up.

There is no agreed measure of gullibility but I think it is fair to use the percentage of Christians who are CERTAIN God exists. The absence of doubt makes people vulnerable to every scammer who can give a good show of having special access to God.

In Nigeria 94% of Christians are certain that God is real. Only one African country has a higher percentage; in Kenya it is 95%.

Two countries tie with Nigeria in second place: Ghana and Tanzania both at 94%.

Other countries are rather lower. For example Chad has 82% and Mozambique has 77%. For comparison, Japan has 4.2%--the lowest in the world although many European countries are not far behind Japan.

That's why I say, if Gullibility was an Olympic sport, Nigeria would be on the winners' podium.

Data from PEW FORUM ON RELIGION & PUBLIC LIFE
TOLERANCE AND TENSION:
ISLAM AND CHRISTIANITY IN SUB-SAHARAN AFRICA

RELIGION and the JAPANESE SOCIETY:

Religion ceased to be what it used to be in Japan after the Second World War. The Japanese before WW2 believed strongly in their religion to help defend their territory in war and peace. The Shinto god was obviously no match for science which was made obvious by the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. People lost faith in their religion and uniquely they dint run to adopt another man's religion. Obviously they re nt as foolish as some Africans who in the face of staggering evidence that god can do nothing for them wld still go ahead to enrich conmen/pastors.

while war has strengthened some into believing even more in their religion!!! I'd leave it to u to say its not true!

Religion hasn't failed Nigeria, Nigerians have shamed religion!!! This is the fact! Yet this so called "wise analysts" have been blinded to seeing such! even atheist have conned ppl, even fellow atheist!
its easy to blame others, atleast wen u aren't caught!

It sure has-it has only created lots of hypocrites and money for the men of the pulpit...morals and attitudes getting worse everyday.

ThaProphet:

Indeed! Black communities that are extremely religious can be argued to be already poor. However, we can argue that they were already religious as well. Besides that even if religion did not directly cause their poverty, religion certainly has something to do with them remaining in poverty because.....

of apathy which is the main cause of lack of direction as you rightly pointed out. Apathy actually means the lack of interest in pursuing things that should be important, being docile when action is required or lack of interest. This is a manifestation of over-religiosity, don't you think? Like you said, over-religiosity is when people think that Jesus will do everything for them. You mentioned that it is contrary to the scripture, I 100% agree with you. Yet the scripture says "do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers". Thus, many Christians refuse to engage in progressive activities like politics or protests and campaigns for example. In order to further support their resolve to not engage, scriptures like "for we fight not against flesh and blood but principalities...." are brandished. In other words, they only way to achieve change is to pray endlessly in the churches. I have to balance this, this is not meant to be an attack on Christianity. Over-religiosity can also be seen in our Islamic brothers as well. Except that it is mostly manifested in aggression and contemporarily, terrorism. It is the same over-religiosity expressed in different ways.

Both types of over-religiosity are obviously not beneficial. My point is that apathy and over-religiosity compliment each other and can lead to a lack of vision and direction. I do however agree that this is not universal as there are exceptions, just like yourself but according to my experience, it is true is most cases.

The unity aspect, I completely agree with. Humans have always had excuses and reasons to commit the most heinous acts. Which is why I think the world will probably fair better without it. Without religion, there will be less sentiments and people's acts can be seen exactly for what they are. For example slavery was about greed and economic reasons not dogmas like racism or religion. Yet, racism (invented) and Christianity were used to justify and foster it.

Brilliant observation about nairaland! You know what? Sometimes I think that the reason why the country is so messed up can be seen on Nairaland by just spending 1 hour on this forum. One one hand, you have silly people and on the other, you have people who think they are smart and because of that everybody else's opinion is worth nothing. We then end up with curses and name-calling and at the end, no one has actually managed to communicate. I do appreciate your respect and open mindedness even though we disagree on quite a lot lol.

Peace!

Hahaha I do see we disagree on so much. Again you make very fine points especially when you indicate that it was man's greed that created the slave trade and even those who were believers cast it's message aside at the prospect of making it big.

In all seriousness though, I think it is too often quickly forgotten that it was Christianity that civilized Europe as well as many parts of Africa. It was the missionaries who built the schools and hospitals in Nigeria and unified us under one language. One must ask why atheists didn't do this?

Here's another question: would a truly darwinism-minded group of atheists have built the schools and churches? Wouldn't their espousal of a "survival of the fittest" doctrine have justified subjugating and even wiping out the "primitive" race in order to possess their resources?

Religion shined the light of knowledge in Africa and try as they might, no one can take that away.

NativeBoy:

Hahaha I do see we disagree on so much. Again you make very fine points especially when you indicate that it was man's greed that created the slave trade and even those who were believers cast it's message aside at the prospect of making it big.

In all seriousness though, I think it is too often quickly forgotten that it was Christianity that civilized Europe as well as many parts of Africa. It was the missionaries who built the schools and hospitals in Nigeria and unified us under one language. One must ask why atheists didn't do this?

Here's another question: would a truly darwinism-minded group of atheists have built the schools and churches? Wouldn't their espousal of a "survival of the fittest" doctrine have justified subjugating and even wiping out the "primitive" race in order to possess their resources?

Religion shined the light of knowledge in Africa and try as they might, no one can take that away.

Problems with the bold
-Not all atheists believe in evolution even though majority probably do
-Darwinism is a silly and ambiguous term
-No sensible person would advocate darwinism in a social context- killing people who are termed to be inferior.
-Even Dawkins (one of the most popular atheists) has reiterated the above point.


Religion enslaved Africa. Have you ever wondered why no Nigerian school goes deep into the subject of slavery as part of history?

Do you even know that the christians that built schools in Nigeria built their first school 300 years after the first christians arrived? Why? Because slavery was abolished 300 years after they came. So put that into perspective. The first school in Nigeria was in the 19th century- amission school. The first christians came in the 15th/16th century

NativeBoy:

Hahaha I do see we disagree on so much. Again you make very fine points especially when you indicate that it was man's greed that created the slave trade and even those who were believers cast it's message aside at the prospect of making it big.

In all seriousness though, I think it is too often quickly forgotten that it was Christianity that civilized Europe as well as many parts of Africa. It was the missionaries who built the schools and hospitals in Nigeria and unified us under one language. One must ask why atheists didn't do this?

Here's another question: would a truly darwinism-minded group of atheists have built the schools and churches? Wouldn't their espousal of a "survival of the fittest" doctrine have justified subjugating and even wiping out the "primitive" race in order to possess their resources?

Religion shined the light of knowledge in Africa and try as they might, no one can take that away.

Hehe...we actually do disagree on a lot bro.

I can't really speak for atheist because I don't consider myself one lol. However, I will disagree on the part that Christianity civilized Africa. That is according to those old (but relatively recent) history books that were written with ink laced with racism (a relatively new concept). Older records reveal that there were many "civilizations" before the western/European variant. It is now widely accepted that the use of the word "civilization" is faulty because it usually refers to a particular type of civilization, the European type. So, what definition of civilization are we using here? Many parts of Africa were civilized before they adopted western civilization which was actually heavily influenced by African knowledge and civilization.

Perhaps we should not derail this thread. This is a completely different discussion and topic.

In my opinion, religion had/has too little positives.

Logicboy03:


Problems with the bold
-Not all atheists believe in evolution even though majority probably do
-Darwinism is a silly and ambiguous term
-No sensible person would advocate darwinism in a social context- killing people who are termed to be inferior.
-Even Dawkins (one of the most popular atheists) has reiterated the above point.


Religion enslaved Africa. Have you ever wondered why no Nigerian school goes deep into the subject of slavery as part of history?

Do you even know that the christians that built schools in Nigeria built their first school 300 years after the first christians arrived? Why? Because slavery was abolished 300 years after they came. So put that into perspective. The first school in Nigeria was in the 19th century- amission school. The first christians came in the 15th/16th century

Another truth.

ThaProphet:

Hehe...we actually do disagree on a lot bro.

I can't really speak for atheist because I don't consider myself one lol. However, I will disagree on the part that Christianity civilized Africa. That is according to those old (but relatively recent) history books that were written with ink laced with racism (a relatively new concept). Older records reveal that there were many "civilizations" before the western/European variant. It is now widely accepted that the use of the word "civilization" is faulty because it usually refers to a particular type of civilization, the European type. So, what definition of civilization are we using here? Many parts of Africa were civilized before they adopted western civilization which was actually heavily influenced by African knowledge and civilization.

Perhaps we should not derail this thread. This is a completely different discussion and topic.

In my opinion, religion had/has too little positives.

.

Definitely do no want to derail the thread and I take your point that civilization is a subjective term. So to stick with the thread, my question would be this: what exactly did religion introduce into Africa that wasn't already part of the fabric of our existence?

NativeBoy: .

Definitely do no want to derail the thread and I take your point that civilization is a subjective term. So to stick with the thread, my question would be this: what exactly did religion introduce into Africa that wasn't already part of the fabric of our existence?

Not sure I understand the question the way you intended.

Religion introduced the concept of seeing "God" as something/someone outside of ourselves. By this I mean, a new concept and image of God. It also sowed the seed of self-hatred inadequacy and subjugation. This applies to both Islam and Christianity.

Will continue this discussion later hopefully....

Logicboy03:


Problems with the bold
-Not all atheists believe in evolution even though majority probably do
-Darwinism is a silly and ambiguous term
-No sensible person would advocate darwinism in a social context- killing people who are termed to be inferior.
-Even Dawkins (one of the most popular atheists) has reiterated the above point.


Religion enslaved Africa. Have you ever wondered why no Nigerian school goes deep into the subject of slavery as part of history?

Do you even know that the christians that built schools in Nigeria built their first school 300 years after the first christians arrived? Why? Because slavery was abolished 300 years after they came. So put that into perspective. The first school in Nigeria was in the 19th century- amission school. The first christians came in the 15th/16th century

To address your points in order.

1. I never said all atheists subscribed to Darwinism.

2. Perhaps "Darwinian" is a better term?

3. Why couldn't a sensible person advocate for Darwinism in a social context? (Another thread discussion perhaps?)

4. I am familiar to Dawkins' work and he has not been truly to justify the above. In fact, in his book, "The God Delusion", he states that good and evil really have no meaning when you look at the whole picture of existence (I paraphrased).

5. Indeed the Portuguese Roman Catholics arrived in Nigeria in the 15th century but it never took a strong hold. In fact, it eroded over the next 200 years until they returned in the 1800s. This time the Protestants came as well and by 1865, the first school in Nigeria was built.

I do not contend that the abolition of slavery played an important role in the establishment of schools on the African continent. It did. And it is interesting to note that the abolitionist movement was championed by believers like Wilberforce, Clarkson, Heyrick, Buxton, etc.

Religion is not the Problem, People are... who wrote the Holy Books, Who believed in them, Who heard God or Allah's voice.. who used them to breed mind-boggling idiocy and intellectual laziness - Man

The poison of religion is not just having effects in Nigeria. The place where I am currently working, a major city in West Africa, ran out of water two weeks ago because of a malfunctioning pump at the reservoir. According to the news, last Friday during the sermon at the city's main mosque, the Imam said that the water failure is 'exclusively of divine origin' and that the way to avoid such further water problems is to become more pious and pray more often!!!

MMCCHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

NativeBoy:

To address your points in order.

1. I never said all atheists subscribed to Darwinism.

2. Perhaps "Darwinian" is a better term?

3. Why couldn't a sensible person advocate for Darwinism in a social context? (Another thread discussion perhaps?)

4. I am familiar to Dawkins' work and he has not been truly to justify the above. In fact, in his book, "The God Delusion", he states that good and evil really have no meaning when you look at the whole picture of existence (I paraphrased).

5. Indeed the Portuguese Roman Catholics arrived in Nigeria in the 15th century but it never took a strong hold. In fact, it eroded over the next 200 years until they returned in the 1800s. This time the Protestants came as well and by 1865, the first school in Nigeria was built.

I do not contend that the abolition of slavery played an important role in the establishment of schools on the African continent. It did. And it is interesting to note that the abolitionist movement was championed by believers like Wilberforce, Clarkson, Heyrick, Buxton, etc.

Its either you are lying or just ignorant.

voltron: Religion is not the Problem, People are... who wrote the Holy Books, Who believed in them, Who heard God or Allah's voice.. who used them to breed mind-boggling idiocy and intellectual laziness - Man

Thats another great perspective. As much as I don't think religion is really beneficial, it is not the problem. The problem really is the people who allowed it.

However, some claim that you can practice religion with rationality and reason though.

Logicboy03:



Its either you are lying or just ignorant.

Please support your statement with points. You have insinuated that I am a liar or ignorant, both of which I freely admit to because I've told lies since I was a child and I am aware that there are many things I am not aware of.

Still, you must provide a reasoning to support your statement.

ThaProphet:

Not sure I understand the question the way you intended.

Religion introduced the concept of seeing "God" as something/someone outside of ourselves. By this I mean, a new concept and image of God. It also sowed the seed of self-hatred inadequacy and subjugation. This applies to both Islam and Christianity.

Will continue this discussion later hopefully....

Yes. I also hope we can continue the conversation in another thread perhaps. But I think you also share the view that we must first look at the man. My earlier point to you was that if Nigerians stopped being religious would that makes us less corrupt, less greedy, or lesser cowards?

NativeBoy:

Please support your statement with points. You have insinuated that I am a liar or ignorant, both of which I freely admit to because I've told lies since I was a child and I am aware that there are many things I am not aware of.

Still, you must provide a reasoning to support your statement.

Look....I have had this same debate for over a year now on nairaland. When facts are told about the christian slavery, we always have theists/religious/spiritual people denying the facts with nonsense opinions based on zero evidence


"the real british/european christians didnt engage in slavery, the real ones came and ended slavery"
"christainity didnt catch on until they (the Europeans) came back"

^^^
I am sick of nonsense like these quotes


Another point of annoyance is the lying against Dawkins- which is a christian dogma in its own right nowadays

Another point of annoyance is the nerve to ask silly questions when faced with a superior argument- what kind of person asks what is wrong with social darwinism? Why not pretend to be a Jew in front of a neo-nazi? That will answer your question-labellling certain people with certain xteristics as inferior and treating them different