@Beaf:
Sorry to burst in on the council of professional programmers, but I wanna ask: I have been following this very interesting conversation, and I am wondering about something.

When you guys say .NET, do you mean C#? Or ASP.NET? I'm a novice C# and PHP programmer but I thought C# was mainly used for desktop apps. I knew ASP.NET is web-inclined, but I haven't written a line of ASP before. Can C# be used to develop entirely web-based applications, and how can that work out, i.e. will it translate directly to HTML like I know PHP used to or what? 

I am not challenging anyone, I am only seeking to increase knowledge. Thanks.

mavenbox:

@Beaf:
Sorry to burst in on the council of professional programmers, but I wanna ask: I have been following this very interesting conversation, and I am wondering about something.

When you guys say .NET, do you mean C#? Or ASP.NET? I'm a novice C# and PHP programmer but I thought C# was mainly used for desktop apps. I knew ASP.NET is web-inclined, but I haven't written a line of ASP before. Can C# be used to develop entirely web-based applications, and how can that work out, i.e. will it translate directly to HTML like I know PHP used to or what? 

I am not challenging anyone, I am only seeking to increase knowledge. Thanks.

Hi mavenbox

I can see that you are more interested in developing for the Web, so ASP.NET is the area you should be looking at.

.Net refers to the whole .NET Framework.
The .NET Framework is a specialised code layer between the operating system and the Developers code.
ASP.NET is the part of the .NET Framework that holds classes that are specific to the web. ASP.NET is one of several components of the .NET Framework, you will begin to come across one or two others as you make progress with ASP.NET.

There used to be another framework simply called ASP (or classic ASP), that is what has been superceded by ASP.NET.

You can write code that targets the .NET Framework in several different languages, the most popular being (by a long short) is C#, followed by VB.NET. C# has the widest acceptance and comes up most often in .NET discussions, which can be a bit confusing for those just starting out. C# is just a language, it really isn't the same as .NET or ASP.NET. There is a very fine overview (not a coding resource) of C# here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_Sharp_(programming_language).

As with PHP, any web page built with ASP.NET must render as HTML, because that is the only display language browsers understand. So yes, C# can be used to build entire web-based applications.

I hope I covered all your question?
Good luck with your journey

Beaf:

PHP does have its place and can be a wonderful tool, but only for websites that are lightly stressed. I do not expect any bank to run its internet banking site with PHP, the same for media streaming code, Massively Multiplayer Game sites etc. The main reasons are is inherently insecure, has very poor performance, has relatively poor floating point math, is not close enough to the metal (too high level) and not very object oriented (being so old and un-updated).

For a performance comparison see http://www.misfitgeek.com/pages/Perf_Stat_0809.htm
Parent page here http://misfitgeek.com/blog/aspnet/php-versus-asp-net-ndash-windows-versus-linux-ndash-who-rsquo-s-the-fastest/

An internet bank site can run well with PHP if the developer knows enough to develop an efficient program.

When you state that PHP is not very object oriented (being so old and un-updated) then I can draw just one possible conclusion - You have been attending the wrong parties. The facts concerning PHP and what you stated are about 180 degrees apart.

As webdizzi stated somewhere else it seems that we are mixing up the issues here as regards programming languages and machine language.

I am well versed in the area of DSP (digital signal processing) and how today (due to the increase in the speed of even general purpose PCs) you don't even need any specialized hardware to run DSP based applications.

The processors do most of the work. The language construct only ensures that instructions are correctly sent, stored and retrieved when needed.

Somebody who remembers the basics of programming please correct me, but I think scenario 2 is faster:

1. Program-->Interpreter-->Processor

2. Program-->Compiler-->Processor

Maybe my fundamentals are a bit rusty.

. . .or what is the genesis of this argument sef?

Nobody in his right senses will implement an iterative and computation intensive algorithm interpretively.

@logica

what was even funny was that webdezzi said and obviously still thinks there was nothing like "heavy work".

i weak o.

In case some people still don't get it, which is faster:

1. Speaking English directly to candylips.

2. Speaking French, and then having somebody interpret into English for him to understand?

Or maybe both can be just as fast?

@Afam

It isn't about the processor. There are several tasks in todays World that will freeze your modern desktop if not approached right.
I threw webdezzi a challenge to illustrate the point a few others and I are making. The challenge is here https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-149355.96.html#msg4938062
Funny thing is, in that processor intensive challenge, I "forgot" to mention that all work should be done in a single thread, but he didn't pick up on that. Both he and PHP failed woefully there.

logica gave a very good explanation of our point here https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-149355.128.html#msg4942297.
Each language has a route to the processor. It is in meandering a command to the processor that a language can fail to complete a task in time. For languages like JavaScript and PHP, the route is very very very long. For languages like C# and Java, the route is thousands of times shorter. For C and C++, it is incredibly short; with Assembler, you're right there, bang on the metal.

PHP will fail woefully at DSP too.

candylips:

@logica

what was even funny was that webdezzi said and obviously still thinks there was nothing like "heavy work".

i weak o.

heavy work you were referring to is mainly processor dependent.
while the language may contribute to how fast or slow it solves,
the laguage's contribution to such task it very very minute to what the processor will contribute.
in large computation like u mentioned,same with what i talked about as per image rendering, these rely on the processor performance.

let me use this instance.
a computer with 3ghz running an intensive calculation in written in C
may not meet up with a 3.2ghz computer running the same program written in some other languages. when it comes to real calculations, its up to the processor. not your language. though a language may contribute, maybe because of the way thing implemented on a lower level. but take it that, the processor should be the focus in such calculations

what language did i end up using when i write a wrapper for a particular C function, then call the python function, at least it's now a python method?

webdezzi:

what language did i end up using when i write a wrapper for a particular C function, then call the python function, at least it's now a python method?

Can you describe the process of calling a C function in Python (indicating message transfers - functional calls - using arrows) from the the actual function call in Python to the processor invocation of instructions)?

By the way, I read online that Python compiles to byte-code similar to Java (Python users please confirm).

logica:

By the way, I read online that Python compiles to byte-code similar to Java (Python users please confirm).

Some compilers allow you compile Python to machine code.

Kobojunkie:

Some compilers allow you compile Python to machine code.

Byte-code is different from machine code. The target of a byte-code is of course a virtual machine (VM) which simulates a real processor.

I have no doubt that compilers for Python exist though. Are they mainly JIT (Just-In-Time) like are used in Java?

webdezzi:

heavy work you were referring to is mainly processor dependent.
while the language may contribute to how fast or slow it solves,
the laguage's contribution to such task it very very minute to what the processor will contribute.
in large computation like u mentioned,same with what i talked about as per image rendering, these rely on the processor performance.

let me use this instance.
a computer with 3ghz running an intensive calculation in written in C
may not meet up with a 3.2ghz computer running the same program written in some other languages. when it comes to real calculations, its up to the processor. not your language. though a language may contribute, maybe because of the way thing implemented on a lower level. but take it that, the processor should be the focus in such calculations

what language did i end up using when i write a wrapper for a particular C function, then call the python function, at least it's now a python method?

Over the years, processor speed has taken as a proxy for Moores Law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law
The importance of the above is, while CPU speeds have roughly doubled every two years, an application in C# (.NET) is usually 1000's of times faster than one written in PHP (not even double). A C# (.NET) programme running on a 3ghz will blast a PHP one running on a 3.2ghz right out of the water. The same goes for Java.

When will PHP ever catch up if we are depending on CPU speed? Damn!
This is not to say PHP is useless, far from it! The fact is, PHP is more than adequate to handle your everyday website. Problems arise when code must deliver results at high performance app levels (motion detection, video, audio, games, parallel, cloud, Enterprise Ecommerce etc) . . . And these problems are serious ones.

These are measurements for a few single functions, http://www.misfitgeek.com/pages/Perf_Stat_0809.htm. The speed differential goes past a 100 for ASP.NET in at least one instance. Add up a few functions to build an application and things really begin to look very very bleak.

If you write a wrapper for a C function, you are using C through the calling language. It doesn't make the calling language any faster, instead it proves that C is much faster, hence the need to wrap a C function.

Assembler - you can't get any faster (except by writing directly in binary, largely impossible)
C, C++, D, Delphi - blazingly fast
C# (.NET), Java - very fast
Python, Ruby, PHP - slow

webdezzi:

heavy work you were referring to is mainly processor dependent.
while the language may contribute to how fast or slow it solves,
the laguage's contribution to such task it very very minute to what the processor will contribute.
in large computation like u mentioned,same with what i talked about as per image rendering, these rely on the processor performance.

let me use this instance.
a computer with 3ghz running an intensive calculation in written in C
may not meet up with a 3.2ghz computer running the same program written in some other languages. when it comes to real calculations, its up to the processor. not your language. though a language may contribute, maybe because of the way thing implemented on a lower level. but take it that, the processor should be the focus in such calculations

what language did i end up using when i write a wrapper for a particular C function, then call the python function, at least it's now a python method?

Over the years, processor speed has taken as a proxy for Moores Law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law
The importance of the above is, while CPU speeds have roughly doubled every two years, an application in C# (.NET) is usually 1000's of times faster than one written in PHP (not even double). A C# (.NET) programme running on a 3ghz will blast a PHP one running on a 3.2ghz right out of the water. The same goes for Java.

When will PHP ever catch up if we are depending on CPU speed? Damn!
This is not to say PHP is useless, far from it! The fact is, PHP is more than adequate to handle your everyday website. Problems arise when code must deliver results at high performance app levels (motion detection, video, audio, games, parallel, cloud, Enterprise Ecommerce etc) . . . And these problems are serious ones.

These are measurements for a few single functions, http://www.misfitgeek.com/pages/Perf_Stat_0809.htm. The speed differential goes past a 100 for ASP.NET in at least one instance. Add up a few functions to build an application and things really begin to look very very bleak.

If you write a wrapper for a C function, you are using C through the calling language. It doesn't make the calling language any faster, instead it proves that C is much faster, hence the need to wrap a C function.

Assembler - you can't get any faster (except by writing directly in binary, largely impossible)
C, C++, D, Delphi - blazingly fast
C# (.NET), Java - very fast
Python, Ruby, PHP - slow

Beaf:

Over the years, processor speed has taken as a proxy for Moores Law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law
The importance of the above is, while CPU speeds have roughly doubled every two years, an application in C# (.NET) is usually 1000's of times faster than one written in PHP (not even double). A C# (.NET) programme running on a 3ghz will blast a PHP one running on a 3.2ghz right out of the water. The same goes for Java.

When will PHP ever catch up if we are depending on CPU speed? Damn!
This is not to say PHP is useless, far from it! The fact is, PHP is more than adequate to handle your everyday website. Problems arise when code must deliver results at high performance app levels (motion detection, video, audio, games, parallel, cloud, Enterprise Ecommerce etc) . . . And these problems are serious ones.

These are measurements for a few single functions, http://www.misfitgeek.com/pages/Perf_Stat_0809.htm. The speed differential goes past a 100 for ASP.NET in at least one instance. Add up a few functions to build an application and things really begin to look very very bleak.

If you write a wrapper for a C function, you are using C through the calling language. It doesn't make the calling language any faster, [b]instead it proves that C is much faster, hence the need to wrap a C function.[/b]

Assembler - you can't get any faster (except by writing directly in binary, largely impossible)
C, C++, D, Delphi - blazingly fast
C# (.NET), Java - very fast
Python, Ruby, PHP - slow

let me ask, how much experiences you have working with those slow languages
i know you dont know much about them, if you do, you wont put java where it is.
I guess thats why someone said it's powers lies else where, but not with speed.


i also have some experience working with java, but am sure, i have lost them by now
the reason anyone chooses a language varies from programmer to programmer.
to me
i can be more productive, i will say 5 times than i will be using java and my apps runs pretty fast

Suppose, for example, you need to write a piece of software. The pointy-haired boss has no idea how this software has to work, and can't tell one programming language from another, and yet he knows what language you should write it in. Exactly. He thinks you should write it in Java.

Why does he think this? Let's take a look inside the brain of the pointy-haired boss. What he's thinking is something like this. Java is a standard. I know it must be, because I read about it in the press all the time. Since it is a standard, I won't get in trouble for using it. And that also means there will always be lots of Java programmers, so if the programmers working for me now quit, as programmers working for me mysteriously always do, I can easily replace them.

gotten from http://www.paulgraham.com/icad.html

Beaf:

Assembler - you can't get any faster (except by writing directly in binary, largely impossible)

Well, Assembler converts DIRECTLY to binary (hex-code).

It seems this webdizzi guy never heard of JIT Compilation.

@rancetech. ppl like to brag just cos they can program using som high-level stuff, why not go down low. i.e. try ur hands on assembly language, dats where the real deal is. anyone who wants to get better at programming should learn some assembly lang, cos it lets u think better. assembly lets u understand what is going on within the computer itself, dats cos ur code is responsible for every step taking. all maths routines are done by u and not handled by somebody elses's code. underneath every compiler is always an assembler. what do u think most of ur OS is written in. it usually takes me two months to fully master any high-level lang, but i'v been writtin assembly for four yrs and still gives me headache. i come from the hardware background thats why i can't do without assembly. not all can learn assembly, but be sure it will improve ur coding. one advice for pure sotfware programmers, try using ur knowledge wisely. let me suggest two fields in which if u can master , then u are on ur way to the top. 1)data compression 2)crytography. try those, not some fake application that cant get u no where. naija suppose don pass all that level. we too get brain but we no won use am!!!

webdezzi:

let me ask, how much experiences you have working with those slow languages
i know you dont know much about them, if you do, you wont put java where it is.
I guess thats why someone said it's powers lies else where, but not with speed.
. . .

I am beginning to think that by speed you mean, how quickly you can get the job done. That is productivity, not speed or raw performance.
It is healthy to have a balance of raw performance and productivity, instead of a near 100% tilt in one direction (Assembler vs Ruby).

logica:

Well, Assembler converts DIRECTLY to binary (hex-code).

It seems this webdizzi guy never heard of JIT Compilation.

In the old days, they used to have binary punch cards. Can you imagine? Damn!

usisky:

@rancetech. ppl like to brag just cos they can program using som high-level stuff, why not go down low. i.e. try your hands on assembly language, dats where the real deal is. anyone who wants to get better at programming should learn some assembly lang, cos it lets u think better. assembly lets u understand what is going on within the computer itself,,

I'm not sure i agree with you, the great thing about high level languages is abstraction which lets you manage complexity. While its useful to know how the processor is moving data around or doing context switching, most times i want to be able to forget those details an think in terms of the customers problem and a probable solution.

Is the headache you get really worth it ? The advantage of also using a highlevel language is because the compiler can generate code thats's optimized for the hardware. That'll be hard, if you're coding in Assembly (you're apps won't be portable) ,

usisky:
. 1)data compression 2)crytography. try those, not some fake application that cant get u no where. naija suppose don pass all that level. we too get brain but we no won use am!!!

Yeah these are great exercises for programmers, i.e. algorithm development skills are lost most time in the corporate build, compile, run mode that is necessary for business apps.

Even i large business projects only a very small part of the code (like 0.5%) is made of programming acrobatics, the rest is boiler plate stuff. That's why more people are advocating for automatic code generation robots/tools.

So I recommend VB.NET to anyone who wants to do programming. I'm proud of it.

Kindly give me the product keys of Visual Studio.net 2003!!! I will be grateful indeed, if you can send to me on 08035016059 OR post it here.

Beaf:

I am beginning to think that by speed you mean, how quickly you can get the job done. That is productivity, not speed or raw performance.
It is healthy to have a balance of raw performance and productivity, instead of a near 100% tilt in one direction (Assembler vs Ruby).

you did not answer the question, how much experiences do you have with those languages

logica:

Well, Assembler converts DIRECTLY to binary (hex-code).

It seems this webdizzi guy never heard of JIT Compilation.

now i see where you are coming from.
here is a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation

mind you, am not arguing here to get people to think i know this or that.
i am trying to prove a point.

webdezzi:

you did not answer the question, how much experiences do you have with those languages
. . .

I have had quite some experience with pearl, some with python, a little PHP, a lot of ASP. I have across the board experience of both fast and slow languages.

Can we clear the questions I asked earlier?
I am beginning to think that by speed you mean, how quickly you can get the job done. That is productivity, not speed or raw performance.
It is healthy to have a balance of raw performance and productivity, instead of a near 100% tilt in one direction (Assembler vs Ruby).

yes, by productivity, i mean how quickly i get the job done.
that is a plus for python

By you mentioning speed, i will admit it is a plus for the C language
but you guys saying when it comes to "heavy work", python should not be used and even going ahead calling a processor intensive calculation a language task sounds to me like a joke.


here are some links to make you feel comfortable using python

http://www.python.org/about/success/
http://python.about.com/b/2006/11/17/creative-search-technology-with-python.htm

also cool to know that NASA has also discovered python and they use it for heavy computation like the one you mentioned.

Astronomers are developing new and powerful statistical methods in response to the recent explosion in astronomical data quantity and quality. These methods promise to significantly increase the amount and quality of science distilled from complex data. Though powerful and computationally complex, most new methods are conceptually straightforward and can be used without knowledge of implementation details. Our projectÂ’s primary objective is to enable astronomers to use sophisticated methods without requiring them to master the art of statistical computing. To accomplish this, we will pursue four subsidiary objectives: (1) Within a unifying framework, implement a broad and deep collection of statistical software tools built on algorithms from recent and current research in astrostatistics and computational statistics, wit extensive and accessible documentation. These tools will span may problem domains (e.g., time series, surveys, spectroscopy, imaging), and will offer choices of various approaches wherever possible (e.g., conventional frequentist methods and Bayesian counterparts) so users can easily compare competing methods. A “parametric inference engine” will supplement basic tools with a framework implementing functionality common to many parameter estimation methods (e.g., constrained optimization, multidimensional exploration and integration, Monte Carlo methods). (2) Exploit the capabilities of a modern, object-oriented computer language[b] – Python—[/b]to implement the[b] tools efficiently[/b] and in a form that is seductively easy to use despite the sophistication of the underlying algorithms. Python allows simplified, high-level interfaces to methods with little compromise in computational efficiency. It is being used to rewrite the widely-used IRAF data analysis environment, so IRAF users will have particularly easy access to our tools. (3) Undertake an outreach program to inform astronomers of the methods and tools by demonstration of their scientific utility. This will include high-visibility presentations at major astronomical meetings demonstrating use of our methods. (4) Enable collaboration between astrostatisticians and computer scientists to ensure the combined scientific and computational quality of the tools. This project will allow astrostatisticians and a leading architect of PythonÂ’s numerical capability to devote significant effort to constructing a robust, well-documented tool kit.

copied from http://aisrp.nasa.gov/projects/e529600e.html

@webdezzi

you have quoted a research project from nasa.

Research projects are what they are . . . just research.

I am involved in monte carlo simulations and i can tell you that most commercial projects use C++

research? you are funny.
google more and see those using python.

candylips:

@webdezzi

you have quoted a research project from nasa.

Research projects are what they are . . . just research.

I am involved in monte carlo simulations and i can tell you that most commercial projects use C++

i like your use of the word "most".
i have just shown you NASA using python for the same monte carlo calculation

moreover, i think there is a python module for calculations using the monte carlo method called PyMC.

here is the result of my google search

The Java and Python runtime environments are built to ensure that your application runs quickly, securely, and without interference from other apps on the system,


, With App Engine's Python runtime environment, you can implement your app using the Python programming language, and run it on an optimized Python interpreter. App Engine includes rich APIs and tools for Python web application development, including a feature rich data modeling API, an easy-to-use web application framework, and tools for managing and accessing your app's data. You can also take advantage of a wide variety of mature libraries and frameworks for Python web application development, such as Django.

The Python runtime environment uses Python version 2.5.2. Additional support for Python 3 is being considered for a future release.

The Python environment includes the Python standard library. Of course, not all of the library's features can run in the sandbox environment. For instance, a call to a method that attempts to open a socket or write to a file will raise an exception. For convenience, several modules in the standard library whose core features are not supported by the runtime environment have been disabled, and code that imports them will raise an error.

Application code written for the Python environment must be written exclusively in Python. Extensions written in the C language are not supported.

The Python environment provides rich Python APIs for the datastore, Google Accounts, URL fetch, and email services. App Engine also provides a simple Python web application framework called webapp to make it easy to start building applications.

You can upload other third-party libraries with your application, as long as they are implemented in pure Python and do not require any unsupported standard library modules.

http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/whatisgoogleappengine.html

so you see that google uses python for their internals too, they also use java
so where does that put you. Mr Monte Carlo.

yea most . . infact majority use c++. ( some people do it in VBA excel but i am talking about large scale projects)

python is just not built for that type of heavy work but i understand that researchers will always attempt to find some form of research to while away their time

yes, there are large scale projects but with python, i cant really see a large scale project.

for instance, i have a personal library of close to 35 useful functions (still climbing) that will fit into any of most projects without any need to modify the functions.
and over time, i have become addicted to these method's variables that i use them as if it's part of the standard library.

@webdezzi
As far as I can see from the Google example; they are describing a python API binding for devs to consume, not that anything in Google runs on Python.

Google App Engine supports apps written in several programming languages. With App Engine's Java runtime environment, you can build your app using standard Java technologies, including the JVM, Java servlets, and the Java programming language—or any other language using a JVM-based interpreter or compiler, such as JavaScript or Ruby. App Engine also features a dedicated Python runtime environment, which includes a fast Python interpreter and the Python standard library. The Java and Python runtime environments are built to ensure that your application runs quickly, securely, and without interference from other apps on the system.

copied from that same page

you can also check out google's webapp framework here http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/python/tools/webapp/
webapp also runs on appengine


the bottom line of this is that
while some languages may save milliseconds following benchmark results, it is up to you as a developer to skim through languages and see which one will work for the project and you.
dont tie yourself down to a language even when what matters to you most isn't present.

Like i always tell my students, dont let what you read here and there dictate for you (including benchmark images)
rather, take them along with you, do your own findings.
then decide.
that's what friedrich, a C++ guy from United Space Alliance did here http://www.python.org/about/success/usa/