stop talking about the koran it's a plagarized version of the bible. . . . . . . . it completely lacks credibility and is full of platitudes when it comes to history and stories. . . apart from the hadith i dont see any originality in it. . . all its stories were stolen from the bible. . . . . even the biblical stoies were stolen from the torah(jewish holy book). . . . . .

@lady
"Using the present day to define the past doesn't make sense"?( shake my head in disbelief ) You continue to awe me, yes our children would look at the methods we have today and improve on it that's bound to happen. If we are perfect then there would be no need to change it don't you think?

Nothing is ever perfect. Yes there would be need to change it because of the ever changing and growing world and minds that reside in it.
But to suggest that it doesn't suffice for the time being is ridiculous and insulting.

If passing it down orally was the best then why are we writing today?

It was the best way at that time. That is why I stated that it is relative to time. If our children of tomorrow find our methods to be inefficient does that mean that the conversation we are having at this point is untrue? Does it mean that the history books written down are untrue about history? No it doesn't. It only means that at this particular time it is what is efficient.
Oral communication was efficient at that time, but today it is no longer efficient. But that is not to say that because we today don't find it inefficient, it must have recorded false things. Just as it would be wrong to say that because our children will find our method of communication inefficient in the future, we too have recorded false things.

I agree the example I used was behavioural tradition, but there had to be an oral backing the slaying would not go on  without an explanation.

It stemmed from a belief system. Oral tradition is not particularly a belief system, but a recording of historical happenings. Just as you don't have to have a set of beliefs or believe in God to know that world war II happened in history. It's just a recording.

As for the two scenarios I gave you yes they have differences but you smartly failed to see the similarity which is the church being stubborn despite the facts facing them

The church is not ignoring the facts facing them, it just simply would not choose to have a double standard and it wil not waver in a belief.

Lets face it people are going to have sex before marriage and like you pointed out they would be disobeying one of the commandments, now that said you have to understand that these people are not in the habit of carrying condoms as it is not the norm

Lets face it people are going to steal, lie, murder, so what should we do make them allowable. Should the church now permit these too. I mean people wanna do it, so why not let them?

So after a few bottles of tequila and one does not really have that control they    give in to the temptation and have sex, just that once is enough to seal the persons fate.

So after someone steals, they have the urge to lie about it, just that once is enough for it to be ok?

Next you have to correct the notion that most contraceptive methods are abortive! Maybe as a catholic its not a field you are familiar with but for starters just how are condoms abortive?

LOL, Well I guess you know Catholics cannot be doctors or accountants or nurses or professors. I mean that would be ridiculous, how can a Catholic be a doctor, and how can a Catholic doctor know about contraception. I mean seriously they're catholics. They couldn't have professions, they're locked up in some cave somewhere so they must not know how the world functions.

Most regular contraceptive pills work by thickening the  mucous around  the cervix and preventing sperm from entering the uterus, is that abortive? Furthermore they also contain hormones that suppress ovulation again I ask is that abortive

Actually there are very high rates of breakthrough ovulation, we know this is possible because a lot of women on the pill do still get pregnant. But with the hgh concentration of chemicals the child is unable to survive. But look up more on that.

These are not even the issue I am talking life savers the Condom

Lol at condoms being life savers. Even the condom makers and nurses and doctors will tell you the best way is through abstinence.
You may not have heard of condoms breaking or that people can ineffectively use them.

I am very sure you would have heard that the Jehova's witness do not take blood even if their life depended on it, just because of some scripture interpreted to suit the purpose, so also is their refusal

I am yet to come across one scripture that says so. All the more reason why the Only Church that Christ established should be listened to, if you're a Christian.

May I even ask, did Jesus say anything concerning contraception? Its just another piece of tradition that is way overdue to be discarded.

Did Jesus state anything about the way one may urinate or pass feces? Yet how do you know the proper way for it to be done?
Ever heard of natural law? You must have misssed that in my post.

I am not saying the church should ok having sex before marriage I am saying the message should be if you must have sex do it safely with a condom, life is very important.

Lol, why should people listen to the church on contraception if they won't listen on the issue of sexual matters? You don't pick and choose what to believe in. If they are Catholics they should know not to go on having sex before marriage, and if married, not without their wife.
They disobeyed, why should we create a way for them to disobey. What's the point of the law then, if we will create a passage way for disobedience.
What's the point for the law to be no murder? If you're going to provide a way to do it "safely"
I wonder what the safe way for murder is? 'If you're going to shoot, make sure it's clean and quick so the person won't suffer much, or if you're going to cut a person up, use a clean matchete"
Lo, r u even serious?

I think you should go ahead and tell me where it is in the scripture that it is against God's law.

There is no scripture talking about contraception and you know it. Neither is there scripture that tells you the different ways of murder. It doesn't outline, well if you use a gun, it is murder, but if you use a knife it isn't murder.
Neither is there a place where it states that certain lies are worse than the other.
It all falls under the no fornication and adultery rule, and the be fruitful and multiply rule.
I will have to start getting technical about the whole issue, but since you say you were raised Catholic, you should know about this, unless you were lying about that.
It is against God's law because it doesn't allow for his will to be done. If he says I want you to have a child, it is not up to you to say no not now.
That is where the whole God's will comes in. And it is also against natural law. Plainand simple. The woman's body is already designed to make sure there are times that she won't be able to get pregnant, and there are times that she will, why start creating a whole new timeline. Unless you're trying to say that nature isn't sufficient.

Actually can you show me how it is against God's will or law that contraception should not be used?

What I think is a double standard is saying no to the use of condoms and allowing the billings method when the "intent" to prevent conception is there

That's the thing the "intent" to prevent conception is not there. If the intent to prevent conception is there then the couple is wrong. The intent of the billings method is to space out conception without the "intent" to prevent conception. So if a couple happens to get pregnant in the time frame the woman is not ovulating then they are to 'intently" keep the baby as a blessing.

And please refer me to a journal on your assertion that marriages without contraception last longer.
It is really sad.  

[url]http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=3RbyuQAYsdMC&oi=fnd&pg=PR9&dq=sex+survey+united+states+NIH+homosexual&ots=B4otVIXU8-&sig=JuWNW9GM280eXS7PxWVodGiYFdk#PPA216,M1[/url]
That's a book that talks about issues like that, it is from 1992, however contraception was rampant at that time too, so it is still admissible.

It's quite difficult to find these things as it seems you're expected to buy the articles, lol.
But I am not at home and do have a book that contains information on such articles, when I get home I will look it up for you. Or you might want to do the research for yourself.

But not just in articles but also in the way the world has shifted. There are more people getting divorces today ever since contraception became an issue.
Those who engage in premarital sex are often left unsatisfied by their spouses. Those who cohabitate before marriage are more likely to get divorced sooner.
You can certainly get info on these if you research enough.

Why is it that couples who don't use contraception have a longer lasting relationship? Because they invest in the relationship, and take responsibility for the marriage.

















It was strictly historical and not belief.

even the biblical stoies were stolen from the torah(jewish holy book). . . . . .

The Bible and Torah are the same, word for word. The Bible is the Torah with addition of the New Testament. The Old Testament of the Bible is the Torah.

Old Testament = Torah.

Hope that's clear for you.

Quote from: ~Lady~ on Today at 07:57:43 PM
pilgrim 1. Why are you wasting your time with Olabowale. He is a master deceiver, and I know this first hand. I ignore him, because silence is the best answer for a fool.

Lol. . . ~Lady~,

So much for coming from a good home! How am I suddenly a fool behoves me. Have I dragged myself in the gutter with you? A cattle that keeps the company of dog(s) will definitely eat human deficates. If you are frustrated by my responses, there is no need to call me a fool because of that! What is deserving is what is deserving! And I do not think I deserved to be called a fool by you! No way, no how. Not at any time! That is if thereis any culture in you!

olabowale:

only in the Qur'an is the process of how he learnt to bury his body was provided. You don't have the same in the Bible. If you do, please lets hear it.

Ask him why the quran doesnt contain details of other events like the bible and olabowale would be first to mention how the quran isnt interested in such mundane stuff.

Process of burying the dead? They need to teach someone that?   This allah sef!

@pilgrim
I just read up "oral tradition" turns out we have been using the wrong term.
What I am trying to say to lady is this, when a story is being passed down generations by generations it is bound to loose some things, the general message usually remains the same but the story itself changes with time.
I will give you an example with my village. Where I come from is made up of 4 different hamlets, now there is a popular saying about people from one of these hamlets that they give thrones as gifts.
So I took it up with an elderly uncle, and then he tried to explain to me as his father did to him. He said that the four hamlets represented the four sons of the very first king of the village, now that particular hamlet we are talking about was that of his first son, and supposed to be the heir to the throne but this king lived for a very long time infact so long that his first son could not stand it any longer and had to move away because he too was getting old and the throne was not coming to him, he then became the oracle's priest in the village. Now my uncle tried to explain that at that time these priests had almost as much food as the king without the responsibilities that came with the position. Now when his father died people say that he refused to take the throne because he was content with being the chief priest, and "dashed" the throne to his brother.
Now what you have just heard is my own version of the story but it could have holes in it as my uncle told me this story some time ago and I remember also asking him why the people in that village do not answer with the general king and I cannot really remember what if explained. This is my heritage and its pretty important to me at least but all neighbouring villages around mine have not even been able to come together and accept what their roots are because in the elders meetings it always boiled down to that is not what my father told me, and we are talking about men who are 85 years and above, how are we even to trust their memories look at me even at the prime of my life struggling with the story. I am a victim of oral communication, are you getting me point?
Waiting for you to weigh in on the contraception and church tradition thing.

And how do you have a first had deceit from me? Please explain.

Process of burying the dead? They need to teach someone that? This allah sef!

Not just that, it teaches how you should have clean yourself after having sex, and how you should sneeze, and how you should sleep.

I am still waiting to know how it is a person should urinate or poop.
I wonder how entertaining it will be for a man to urinate, does he point his penis up, down, to the left, or to the right.
I'm still waiting to find these things out.

I wonder does it speak of how one should sit, stand, crawl?

~Lady~:

Not just that, it teaches how you should have clean yourself after having sex, and how you should sneeze, and how you should sleep.

I am still waiting to know how it is a person should urinate or poop.
I wonder how entertaining it will be for a man to urinate, does he point his privates up, down, to the left, or to the right.
I'm still waiting to find these things out.

I wonder does it speak of how one should sit, stand, crawl?

dont forget it also teaches us how to yawn, how not to allow the devil squeeze through our pee holes by bathing with our pants on, how to utilize sand as a sanitizer in case there is no water . . .

This allah sef.

What I am trying to say to lady is this, when a story is being passed down generations by generations it is bound to loose some things, the general message usually remains the same but the story itself changes with time.

Oh hun, it's not that I don't understand your point, I do understand it. I won't recommend that people use "oral tradition" to pass it down today, but that is today. Back then, it was the only sufficient way, and for something sacred, i doubt they treated it lightly as if it's some "story story" or "tales by the moonlight"
Like I said the Jews are still succesfully passing down sotries word for word, and they've been doing so for at least the past 5000 years. How difficult is it to realise that if they've been able to preserve it for so long with the changing demographics of the people, that those before them who weren't facing the challenge of a changing demographics would be able to preserve it fully?

You still haven't answered my questions. Should lying and murder and stealing be allowed by the church because people are doing it?

don't forget it also teaches us how to yawn, how not to allow the devil squeeze through our pee holes by bathing with our pants on, how to utilize sand as a sanitizer in case there is no water . . .

Ok I knew about the yawning part, but I didn't know about the devil squeezing through the pee holes and utilizing sand when there's no water.

Oh did you know that the devil rests in your nostrils when you sleep at night?

@Davidylan: « #100 on: Today at 10:21:05 PM »  

Quote from: olabowale on Today at 09:53:43 PM
only in the Qur'an is the process of how he learnt to bury his body was provided. You don't have the same in the Bible. If you do, please lets hear it.


Ask him why the quran doesnt contain details of other events like the bible and olabowale would be first to mention how the quran isnt interested in such mundane stuff.

Process of burying the dead? They need to teach someone that?   This allah sef!

And yet, you did not cull out from your Bible how he learnt to bury his brother! Just imagine! The bible is different from the Qur'an. Hence there is no "mundaneness" in the Qur'an, as we have it in the Bible. But if you will tell us that the scratching of the earth by the the Raven to bury the dead one, is not essential to the burial of the murdered Abel, then please explain. I am sure you will not read how deep the grave was and the amount of soil, there in, when you read the Qur'an.

Am sure if the 'Inspired men" of Bible remembered or were inspired enough to pen the detail of the burial of Abel, they would have done tremedous justice. They may even detailed it so much to how much soil unearthened! Wink. Wink.

Aburo, oni kin pee e. Mo pee e. Iwo o sa le sejebu jumi lo. O ti e de pee lati gburo mi? She baa she ma she egbon ati aburo ni yi ni? O ga fun iwo ogberon yii o! Am having a great time. Alhandulillah.

~Lady~:

Oh did you know that the devil rests in your nostrils when you sleep at night?

Really? Perhaps that's why some people snore. Maybe the devil blocks air flow.

@Chrisbenogor,

Chrisbenogor:

@pilgrim
I just read up "oral tradition" turns out we have been using the wrong term.

I read through your explanation and thought perhaps we're on the same wavelength. I might be wrong or mistaken, but I appreciate the point you were trying to highlight about oral tradition weakening an event rather than strengthening it.

Indeed, it does happen. The only thing that has come to our attention though is that every form of communication - no matter the medium of expression - has its perculiar problem. Even when you think of the noted literary works of leading thinkers, scientists, politicians, historians. . . there are many instances where readers have been made the victims of the authors biases. A case in point is the situation where historians and educators have attempted re-writing certain aspects of American history and endorsed such books as required reading in schools! We all know that in one way or the other, nearly every field of enquiry has suffered the same worrisome situation.

The question now would be this: what then do we do from there? Oral tradition may have its multiplied problems, but that should not make us lose the whole gist of the event itself.

Chrisbenogor:
Waiting for you to weigh in on the contraception and church tradition thing.

There are as many church traditions as there are traditions in every other enquiry and worldview. I've grown to respect people's traditions as they cherish them and tread carefully when entering into queries about them. But briefly, we may all have issues on all sides that we may agree and otherwise disagree with; but it is not my place to say that my own church traditions or interpretations are better than any other group's.

What I can say or do is discuss issues and seek to understand why some people hold certain traditions. I may not agree with them at the end of the day, but I'm sure we all would have learnt a few things to take home with us.

On the issue of contraception viz-a-viz the conscience of a church tradition, it all depends on each definitive case. The field of contraception is so broad that it seems immature for us (or for me) to throw its concerns completely out. I would rather first listen to the real issues before coming to any substantial conclusions.

Cheers.

alhaji ma a peyin ni weekend. e ma binu.  
Sugbon allah yi . . . ti e le koko o.

Really? Perhaps that's why some people snore. Maybe the devil blocks air flow.

ROTFLMBO!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

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*takes a deep breath*

HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

THANK YOU FOR MAKING MY DAY!!! THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@lady
To answer your questions about stealing, lying and killing. I will say no, that violates the rule of loving your neighbour, lying is a behavioural habit, stealing, is the same thing but sex is natural, just like your breath.
I think we should take this in small bits.
Ironically I was a top student in church, here is the scripture passage you asked for
Genesis 38:8-10
"8 Juda, therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother. 9He knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground, lest children should be born in his brother's name. 10 And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing."
So your thoughts?

"8 Juda, therefore said to Onan his son: Go in to thy brother's wife and marry her, that thou mayst raise seed to thy brother. 9He knowing that the children should not be his, when he went in to his brother's wife, spilled his seed upon the ground, lest children should be born in his brother's name. 10 And therefore the Lord slew him, because he did a detestable thing."

Did you understand my question at all? Because I believe God slew him, because of contraception. Because he tried to prevent the conception of his brother's wife.

To answer your questions about stealing, lying and killing. I will say no, that violates the rule of loving your neighbour, lying is a behavioural habit, stealing, is the same thing but sex is natural, just like your breath.
I think we should take this in small bits.

Ok fine, then should the Church allow adultery too? I mean that's sexual isn't it? Should it allow fornication?
Lol at sex is natural, sex is a behaviour. I'm mad you put it on the same level as breathing. if you don't have sex for a day will you die? If you don't have sex for 30 minutes will you die? What about people that die before they have sex, especially babies? Why did they miss out on such a natural thing?

Please son't start making your own definition of natural. Lying is natural as sex is natural as stealing is natural, if it is human it is natural.

@Davidylan: « #104 on: Today at 10:32:41 PM »  

don't forget it also teaches us how to yawn,

He (AS), did not teach how to yawn, but how to cover your mouth when you yawn! The back of your left hand or the palm of your right hand to cover your mouth! May, you david just open your mouth, gbuah, without covering it when you yawn! If the Europeans learnt it and brough it as a suffistication to your african hyde, then know they learnt it from Islamic influence. The same way the learnt how to shower, use handkerchief, etc!

how not to allow the devil squeeze through our pee holes by bathing with our pants on,

When will the christians, indeed the disbelievers stop their cronic lies? For your information i shower nakedly. And there is no time since I learnt about Islamic bashfulness that i have allowed anyone, except my spouse to see any of me, from a little above my belly button all the way to a little below my knees! I am sure if you cometo visit me, you probably will be wearing a short that can be shorter than Tennis short! You need to bring some long pants, ol boy! I dont want to see any unclothedness of anybody!

how to utilize sand as a sanitizer in case there is no water . . .

And for you, if there is no water, am sure you will just pull the pants up and be gone! David, thats dirty! Learn cleanliness.

This allah sef.

Even as you refused to acknowledged Him, He is not diminished, in the least!

olabowale:

When will the christians, indeed the disbelievers stop their cronic lies?

It is really a miracle that you are worried about other people's "chronic lies" and yet be unable to detect your own!

olabowale:

And for you, if there is no water, am sure you will just pull the pants up and be gone! David, thats dirty! Learn cleanliness.

. . . i know, i'm trying to learn but can you teach me just exactly how you use sand to clean up pls?
I mean do you keep a bucket of sand in your bathroom?

It is really a miracle that you are worried about other people's "chronic lies" and yet be unable to detect your own!

He's not able to defend his "truth" without contradicting himself. I tell you when someone says it's ok to tell the opposite of the truth because allah has commanded them to do it, you know there's something wrong.
When someone cannot tell that the oppsoite of truth is a lie, there is something wrong.

@Davidylan: « #116 on: Today at 11:19:04 PM »

. . . i know, i'm trying to learn but can you teach me just exactly how you use sand to clean up please?
I mean do you keep a bucket of sand in your bathroom?

You, an Ijebu man should not be asking question about this. You should know the Ibadans joke about Ijebu's bathroom mannerism! You will therefore understand that what Islam brought is improvement!

When you use sand, or stone carry sand, you are in a place that there is no modern day toilet and water is not also available. There used to be a time in America where OUTER HOUSE is used, if not still avaible in the southern backwater villages of the USA! I also live her and you guys should never forget it!

If there is water you should also clean your buttom with it. By the way I use water and soap to clean. Then I soap up my hands, up to and above the wrist and wash them clean! How do you use your toilet in Rochester? Just imagine a woman who has poor hygiene! How can she have a husband, except the same dirty man like her!

Any question(s)?

And if I have ever lied to you in secret, I hereby release you to expose me to the whole world! If you can't seize this chance, then we can know who the liar is! At least I never said God has 3 personality. Or He walked the street of Jerusalem. Or fathered a child. Or was killed. Or limited in His Godly capacity that He had to cry out to another Bigger God after He had begged, prayed and asked to be saved! Etc!

Enough already. Put up or you know what to do. I am a gentleman. Even though I could have completed the one liner, but I am restricted by Islam to be moderate, modest! I have to cast off my Nigerian male garment and wear always my islamic garb!

olabowale:

And if I have ever lied to you in secret, I hereby release you to expose me to the whole world! If you can't seize this chance, then we can know who the liar is!

We've been there before many times in the past. Recently, you brought sex into the words of the prophets where they never even hinted such. Humility doesn't come by overblown shakara, so please take a chill pill.

If begotten son is not a lie, then sex as the only way to beget a begotten son is not a lie!

Olabowale, wetin dey bite you? The prophets did not use those words to include sex. The dishonesty there is for someone to put sex into it when he knows the prophets never did so. Is that the attitude that Muslims exemplify?

I guess the "inspired writers," are not the same as the "Prophets of God!" Can we therefore trust those ordinary men of the latter days wrote and proclaimed it to be the exact statements of the earlier days prophets? It may be more appropriate to believe that the words of the bible, are from the what inspired the inspired writers. in view of this, the prophets could not be therefore assumed to have said that there is a group of gods children or begotten son around at some time in human history.

To conclude otherwise, one will have to identify the writers, definitely not the prophets! can we therefore blame the prophets for the flukes of the " said inspired men"? Why do i believe that all of these will fail on mostly deaf ears ad the sightly are the readers, with light heart that will not be able to soak in "Truth," when they see it?

When people say that Jesus ask them to build churches, it will not be evil to ask if Jesus knew what a church is and if he ever worship in any? Unless we are to believe that Jewish Temple(S) that he worshipped his Creator in are now Churches to the Christians! Yet there is no orthodox Jew, or even reformed Jew that will go to Church for their sabbath! If Christianity is playing footsie with words this much, is there any wonder that I should ask them to tell me how a child is begotten without somebody mounting somebody, in the time of Mary, the mother of Jesus (AS)!

olabowale:

I guess the "inspired writers," are not the same as the "Prophets of God!"

Making that inference simply means the Quran's claim is not honest. The Quran recognizes the same Biblical prophets and acknowledges them; the hadiths also acknowledge them; Islamic history concretely establish that Muhammad reverred the same Torah that the Jews have been reading and which has never been lost; and not in one instance did the Quran deny that those prophets were the same as found in the Bible.

olabowale pls stop deluding yourself the koran was plagiarized version of the bible without the hadiths so pls. . . . . .

@Mazaje: The Qur'an does not contain ahadith. Your very first mistake. Further, the Qur'an has the story of Luqman. Do you have it in the Bible? There are many other Chapters that the Qur'an has which nothing similar to it in the Bible!Surah Kafirun, which is what you are to me, is a good example! Surah Iklas which says thre is only One God, while your Bible fluctuates incoherently between One somethimes and many heads and personalities of gods! You guys need to make up your minds, if you truly have any!

While the Qur'an acknowledges the True Prophets of God, within the blood lines of Isiaqa, of Ibrahim family branch, the Qur'an does not acknowledge the likes of Saul who became Saul! Not even as a true follow of jesus, whom the Qur'an calls Awariyun!

Qur'an and the Muslims who read it are not unmindful about true prophethood. But we definitely separate the Wheat from the unseless shafts!

One will ask which is inspired verse between Mark 12 verse 29, wherein Jesus declared that he is not God or Lord, which is One Lord, and the post Jesus verse or verses which speaks about multiple gods! Since these two sets of ideasfrom the same Bible are actually arguing against each others stand, I will ask, again, which one is truly inspired which one could be self delutional, wishful thinking?

The question deserves the best of answer from whosoever is the Big Cheese among you! Queenisha, where you dey! I hope you are far away from harm's way!

what the heck is suratul kafirun?  i know that the hadith is not part of the koran. . . . . . . i simply did not structure my statement well. . .  that does not negate the fact that the koran is a plagiarized version of the bible and its completely full of platitudes. . . . . .