drc. . . . .

Hell is a fabrication.The concept of hell is something that was created in the hearts and minds of the authors of your Bible and Koran. Before you were informed of what and where hell was, it never crossed your mind to even think about it. So, within the pages of your scriptures hell was born. Just as a God could not exist without the devil, heaven could not exist if there wasn’t a hell.So where did hell come from? It didn’t exist in Adam’s, Noah’s, nor Abraham’s time. It is something that was fabricated so that they could capitalize off of your fear.

I thought this was interesting, as culled from 'Why I am agnostic' by Robert Ingersoll


When I was a boy I heard them tell of an old farmer in Vermont. He was dying. The minister was at his bed-side -- asked him if he was a Christian -- if he was prepared to die. The old man answered that he had made no preparation, that he was not a Christian -- that he had never done anything but work. The preacher said that he could give him no hope unless he had faith in Christ, and that if he had no faith his soul would certainly be lost. The old man was not frightened. He was perfectly calm. In a weak and broken voice he said: "Mr. Preacher, I suppose you noticed my farm. My wife and I came here more than fifty years ago. We were just married. It was a forest then and the land was covered with stones. I cut down the trees, burned the logs, picked up the stones and laid the walls. My wife spun and wove and worked every moment. We raised and educated our children -- denied ourselves.During all these years my wife never had a good dress, or a decent bonnet. I never had a good suit of clothes. We lived on the plainest food. Our hands, our bodies are deformed by toil. We never had a vacation. We loved each other and the children. That is the only luxury we ever had. Now I am about to die and you ask me if I am prepared. Mr. Preacher, I have no fear of the future, no terror of any other world. There may be such a place as hell -- but if there is, you never can make me believe that it's any worse than old Vermont."

The reality is, IT DOESN'T EXIST!!

Hell is a reality. Watch and listen to the findings of some scientists who dug deep down into the crust of the earth and you will be shocked at what they discovered.

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=505c33a5007bc38d456c

This video is done by the church to make more and more money from you. Hell is about Money!.The concept of hell and a devil with a pitchfork standing in front of an open furnace, the electric chair, are all things put in your minds by religious leaders and the media for their own personal gain. The more you believe in their concept of hell, the more frightened you become and the more you will pay for the religious leaders to forgive your sins and redeem your souls.Everybody gains,not just religious institutions. With the concept of horror which you know is entirely based on the devil and hell, everybody gains.

Exactly.

IMO the ''tree of knowledge'' aint some tree with fruit, to me its just a metaphor for knowledge. Once you wake up and realise how stupid this religious dogma is, you'll learn, you'll leave that cage of ignorance and a whole new world opens up to you.
The believers don't want you to eat that knowledge because, THEN THEY can't CONTROL YOU! You wouldn't follow them no more, and IMO you shouldnt, you shouldnt blindly follow anyone or anything, especially if there's no sufficient evidence.
This is mind control to the fullest. In most cases of religious people, they have ben brainwashed from a very young age and fear is grafted into them. So even if someone cones with a legitamite comment regarding the nonsense of their belief systems, their programming/brainwashing would not allow them to see the validity of what one has to say. But if someone else's religion is to be criticised, Christians/Muslims would agree that those people are delusional, refusing to acknowledge the fact that they are just as, or even more delusional than they are.

If God were serious he'll ask you to believe in him face to face, that would be the right thing to do since your eternal life is at stake. Eternal life is a serious issue. I think Jesus has the obligation to tell you face to face then you'll at least have a fighting chance, But of course he don't do this, you know why?, because HE don't EXIST!!

Somehow us who aint convinced by this bollocks are offensive to him because he obviously don't know how to tell people to believe in him. He keeps depending on these ''men of God''  who just preach utter nonsense and these other pedophiles and so on, to talk about him and convince us who arent convinced, yet we're stil going to Hell because of his ego-maniac self and his incompetence.

THAT DOESNT MAKE ANY SENSE!!!

For someone who's all powerful, all knowing an blah blah blah, he's doing an awful job.

Why can't people grow a brain and wake the hell up?!

Simple logic.

But of course he don't do this, you know why?, because HE don't EXIST!!

Just because organised religion has fallen prey to charlatans, bigots and liars does not mean that God does not exist.
The problem occurs when people see religion as the be-all and end-all. Both the fundamentalists and the atheists end up not seeing the wood for the trees.
You claim that God depends on "men of god" when it's actually the other way around - they depend on Him for their livelihoods and their wellbeing. God Himself depends on no-one.

The logic of your argument can only be directed at religion and therefore it's aimed at man. Not at a God who transcends religion.

Bastage:

Just because organised religion has fallen prey to charlatans, bigots and liars does not mean that God does not exist.
The problem occurs when people see religion as the be-all and end-all. Both the fundamentalists and the atheists end up not seeing the wood for the trees.
You claim that God depends on "men of god" when it's actually the other way around - they depend on Him for their livelihoods and their wellbeing. God Himself depends on no-one.

The logic of your argument can only be directed at religion and therefore it's aimed at man. Not at a God who transcends religion.

Through out history and in every religion the gods have always depended heavily on men to do everything for them. . . men wrote the bible, koran, hindu text etc. . . men tell people about how their god/gods wants them to live their lives. . . men kill and fight for their god both in the bible and the koran. . . men give money to their god/gods. . men make sure that their god's will is enforced. . . me do everything when it comes to religion and worship, the gods(allah,jesus,buddah,skivna etc) are yet to do a thing. . . .

Through out history and in every religion the gods have always depended heavily on men to do everything for them.

No. Man depends on man. In the case of the books you're talking about, man wrote a book about religion and then said "This is God". God didn't write the book and give it to man to distribute, whatever fundamentalists may claim. God isn't an author, neither is he a promoter.

As for your statement that God is yet to do a thing? How so? I could counter and say that everything in existence is in some way created or touched by God - either good or bad.

Bastage:

No. Man depends on man. In the case of the books you're talking about, man wrote a book about religion and then said "This is God". God didn't write the book and give it to man to distribute, whatever fundamentalists may claim. God isn't an author, neither is he a promoter.

As for your statement that God is yet to do a thing? How so? I could counter and say that everything in existence is in some way created or touched by God - either good or bad.

i am yet to see god(which ever one of them) send manna from heaven to the straving people living in dafur and other war torn regions of the world who are constantly calling unto his just like he did to the jews in wilderness in the bible and the koran. . .i could also counter and say which of the gods created the world. . allahs creation story in the koran is more elaborate and coherrent that that of jehova in the bible. . . and their creation stories contradict each other in some ways. . . buddah's creation story might differ from that of allah and from that of the other gods. . . .how does god create or touch things? man created a lot of the things in this world too. . . . i dont know if any god has created anything. . . . there are so many gods all with different creation stories, some of their creation stories are sensible and some not so sensible. . which of them created the earth and which of them is touching the earth? i say men created the gods in their own image what say you?

Mannah from Heaven is religion. A loving God who answers the prayers of all man-kind is religion. The Creation stories are religion.
All are created by man.

But if God created man, then there is that "touched by God" aspect that I mentioned. And one cannot just say that it is God's fault or God doesn't exist because a lot of what man creates causes misery, as that just opens up the argument about the concept of Freewill.


I don't disagree for one second that man has created different gods in his image. That is what religion is about.
But again, I say to you, it doesn't disprove the existence of God. A god of religion - yes, you have a very good argument. But a God who is an Ultimate Being? No.

Bastage:

Just because organised religion has fallen prey to charlatans, bigots and liars does not mean that God does not exist.
The problem occurs when people see religion as the be-all and end-all. Both the fundamentalists and the atheists end up not seeing the wood for the trees.
You claim that God depends on "men of god" when it's actually the other way around - they depend on Him for their livelihoods and their wellbeing. God Himself depends on no-one.

The logic of your argument can only be directed at religion and therefore it's aimed at man. Not at a God who transcends religion.

But where does the whole concept of a God come from? ORGANISED RELIGION!!!

God is yet to do a thing himself. And how is he doing it if he aint depending on anyone else? I guess your gonna say ''how is he NOT doing it? Well, the burden is on those who claim he is. If there's no sufficient evidence then its only logical to conclude he doesnt exist.

There's no sufficient evidence. What you're saying is just magic.

But where does the whole concept of a God come from? ORGANISED RELIGION!!!

Of course it doesn't. That's a totally illogical statement.
For there to be a concept of God, man had to have the idea of God before the religion could be created, right?

In all probability, the concept of God dates back to when our anscestors were living in caves. When a lightning bolt struck a branch and caused a fire, when a meteor flashed across the sky, they probably attributed it to a god.

Well, the burden is on those who claim he is. If there's no sufficient evidence then its only logical to conclude he doesnt exist.

There is no burden on anyone. The fact is that even the greatest minds that man-kind has ever produced could not prove or disprove the existence of God. It's a Yes/No answer that is entirely down to personal belief.

@bastage
Do you know how big the universe is? Yes/No
Is there life existing somewhere else in the universe? Yes/No
Who and what is God?
Is he a perfect being that controls this earth or just a prime mover?
I may not be able to prove that God does not exist but all logical evidence points to the fact that the God of the bible does not exist.

I may not be able to prove that God does not exist but all logical evidence points to the fact that the God of the bible does not exist.

Where have I said anything about the god of the Bible existing?

I know I have asked why you are a christian before and you say its because you like to be.
Therefore I tell you the God of christians do not exist!
If that is not your God then enlighten me on your God how about we start from there

If that is not your God then enlighten me on your God how about we start from there.

OK. I choose to believe in a god.
The god of the New Testament happens to have the attributes closest to those I believe my god would have. I also take into account the influences that older religions have on the NT god. Then I look at science, logic and myself.

I don't see God as a Christian god or an Islamic god. He's just "God".

As to why I believe? I just see it as a logical choice. Like I said, I can only be certain that "I think, therefore I am". I choose to believe that something created the "I am" and that something is my god.
To believe in a god is a yes or no answer. To me, the Yes seems more logical. To you maybe not. But that's a matter of choice.

I have no problems if you believe in God. But I don't think it a yes or no. For me I don't know is the answer, one cannot pass judgement on an issue you do not have facts of.
I asked you earlier if you knew of life existing anywhere else in the universe.

For me I don't know is the answer, one cannot pass judgement on an issue you do not have facts of.

But we do that all of the time.
The only facts you have are those that you perceive. That doesn't make them absolute facts.

Here's a good example to show you what I mean by that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_vat

If you were a brain in a vat, you may well have made judgements on what you perceive to be facts but which are actually ideas fed to you by the mad scientist. Therefore, you may not be in possession of the facts and any judgements you've made are irrelevant!!! So at the end of the day everything comes down to belief. Scary stuff huh?


As for extraterrestrial life? I don't discount it. Neither am I convinced it exists. I'm pretty ambivalent on the subject. To be brutally honest, it's not something that really concerns me nor which I give much thought to. I have enough trouble getting my head round Planet Earth.

Like I said perceive or not jump from the empire state building, think you are a bird, you have yourself to blame!

Like I said perceive or not jump from the empire state building, think you are a bird, you have yourself to blame!

Ever seen the movie "The Matrix" where Neo tries to jump from skyscraper to skyscraper?

"Nobody makes their first jump".

Lol bastage, red or blue pill we live and we learn

Hell is a fabrication.The concept of hell is something that was created in the hearts and minds of the authors of your Bible and Koran. Before you were informed of what and where hell was, it never crossed your mind to even think about it. So, within the pages of your scriptures hell was born. Just as a God could not exist without the devil, heaven could not exist if there wasn’t a hell.So where did hell come from? It didn’t exist in Adam’s, Noah’s, nor Abraham’s time. It is something that was fabricated so that they could capitalize off of your fear.

from this reasoning, everything is a fabrication.

no one is born with the knowledge of how to speak english, you are informed of it. no one is born with the understanding of health, you are informed of it. no one is born with the knowledge of brushing your teeth, you are informed of it.

no one is born with knowledge, everyone is informed of something, if your statement holds true, then everything is a fabrication.

there was hell in the time of adam, and abraham, and noah.

The god of the New Testament happens to have the attributes closest to those I believe my god would have

don't want to rain on your parade, but this is the problem with everyone. we want God to be the way we think he should be, instead of letting him show us how he really is.

People don't have a problem with God, they have a problem with God not being the way they want him to be.
That is the problem with the atheist. They expect God to be a certain way and when they see that he is not that way, they look else where and then they find that there isn't a god that matches their view of what a god should be, so they abandon the concept of god in total and claim that he doesn't exist.

Our problem is that we're busy looking for something that isn't there, instead of letting what is there be revealed to us.

~Lady~:

don't want to rain on your parade, but this is the problem with everyone. we want God to be the way we think he should be, instead of letting him show us how he really is.

People don't have a problem with God, they have a problem with God not being the way they want him to be.
That is the problem with the atheist. They expect God to be a certain way and when they see that he is not that way, they look else where and then they find that there isn't a god that matches their view of what a god should be, so they abandon the concept of god in total and claim that he doesn't exist.

lol well said. I think the major problem is deep down everyone believes in the concept of God. The "athiest" (just a sinner who rejects the notion of righteous living) wants a "god" who shld not have any rules and shld simply welcome everyone with open arms to heaven.

DavidDylan:

lol well said. I think the major problem is deep down everyone believes in the concept of God. The "athiest" (just a sinner who rejects the notion of righteous living) wants a "god" who shld not have any rules and shld simply welcome everyone with open arms to heaven.

what is sin and what is righteous living? stoning to death some one who carries stick on a sabbath day as commanded by god in the bible or turning the other cheek when you enemies strike you? i know the rules of allah are very different from jehova and the other gods. . . christains have failed to tell us why jehova is a better god than allah, buddah or skivanah. . . . . .i live in an atheist country and is better than most of the godly countries i have ever visited. . what is righteousness? what and where is heaven. . . every religion that has its own heaven has it's adherants who have claimed to have been there so whats so special about heaven? which of the rules of god are you talking about? rules of god or men?

@lady and oga david
What makes you now think that your monotheistic God is the real deal?
I raised a thread to try and explain why I am agnostic and atheistic, you guys speak in terms of certainty, you don't say I think you say I know.
What you have is just a belief nothing more nothing less, give us evidence to support that there is life after death simple.
Sorry to rain on your own parade but not even you and david can agree as to what hell and heaven is, just ask david if there is purgatory.
Hell is your belief and that does not make it a reality.
If you want a debate ignore all I have said and show us evidence that supports that claim its that simple.
Else you can assert from now till tomorrow and it will not change the fact that once you are dead you are gone.

don't want to rain on your parade, but this is the problem with everyone. we want God to be the way we think he should be, instead of letting him show us how he really is.

One could lay the exact same accusation at the door of Christians. You guys want him to be like the deity depicted in the Bible and you use the Bible to define him.

Personally, I don't have a problem with any god. I have a problem with the followers.

how can there be a heaven and a hell when both christains and moslems have people claiming to have been to those places?

Bastage:

One could lay the exact same accusation at the door of Christians. You guys want him to be like the deity depicted in the Bible and you use the Bible to define him.

Personally, I don't have a problem with any god. I have a problem with the followers.

How else would you define your own idea of God?