@bastage
Well I know these insults don't help whoever is reading this.
Sometimes I look at the amount of hate some of this christians show and I realise that 400 years ago our ips might have been traced and the gullotine would be fed, so sad.

@okija
Me I tire since almost page 1 give us evidence we dey wait.

Chrisbenogor:

@bastage
Well I know these insults don't help whoever is reading this.
Sometimes I look at the amount of hate some of this christians show and I realise that 400 years ago our ips might have been traced and the gullotine would be fed, so sad.

ROFLMFAO

I can imagine them in a room laptops in hand tracing I.P's                            

Sometimes I look at the amount of hate some of this christians show and I realise that 400 years ago our ips might have been traced and the gullotine would be fed

Rest assured, if it were still legal, they would probably do the same today.
The thing that amazes me, is that they try to force-feed you with fantasy, but when you come back with fact you're accused of being a "fundamentalist". If they weren't trying to jack their crap down people's throats and making outlandish statements there would be no need to continually discredit their arguments.

It's like they say something is black when it's clearly white. When you point out the truth, you're subjected to hate and vitriol, smoke and mirrors, lies and deceit, illogical argument and twisted fact.
If one person tried to shove all these things down your throat, he'd be locked up in an asylum as he would clearly be mad. Get a load of them together though, and they call it a religion and see it as perfectly acceptable to spout madness.

Prejudice, not being founded on reason, cannot be removed by argument. . . . . .

@olaadegbu
I know you are a master at making empty assertions, was the above your evidence that hell is real. I must say that was a really pathetic attempt. Let me reply you with what Robert Ingersoll had to say after hearing this same story

For the first time I understood the dogma of eternal pain --appreciated "the glad tidings of great joy." For the first time my imagination grasped the height and depth of the Christian horror. Then I said: "It is a lie, and I hate your religion. If it is true, I hate your God." From that day I have had no fear, no doubt. For me, on that day, the flames of hell were quenched. From that day I have passionately hated every orthodox creed.

@Chrisbenogor,

You have no choice in the FACTS of life (and afterlife) as enumerated below:           
1.That Jesus Christ created you and gave you the breath of life;
2.That you are a spirit and that you have a soul and live in a body;
3.That you will one day die, that is, shed this shell called the body and face your maker;
4.That Jesus Christ will judge you for the decisions that you made and what you have done with His sacrifice here on earth.

It does not matter whether you believe in the law of gravity or not, it is bound to take effect the moment you test it, whether you defy it or not.
The only thing that you can do while you are in time and space now is the decision you make regarding life and death and Jesus Christ.  Your decision determines where you will spent your eternity either you believe in it or not.

Jesus said "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy:  I am come that they might have life, and that they mighty have it more abundantly."

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

The choice is yours.

He who has ears let him hear.

moslems have also been to hell and they saw that therein were those that refuse to believe in allah and his last prophet mohammed. . . . why should there account of hell be discarded?

mazaje:

moslems have also been to hell and they saw that therein were those that refuse to believe in allah and his last prophet mohammed. . . . why should there account of hell be discarded?

e dont discharge one of these myths, that then means everyon is heading to a different hell.

I still don't even know how they are going to fuel the place self.
I have said this times without number, I will be there with every other person who did not believe Jesus and those that did and still managed to do wrong! You included Olaadegbu, when you are done toying around give us real proof about hell, if you cannot at least have the dignity to say you believe.

Oboy na to Carry plenty Corn, Plantain and Igbo go there o!

Atleast we go dey roast Corn dey Chop bole and free lighter for the Igbo.

Okija_juju:

Oboy na to Carry plenty Corn, Plantain and Igbo go there o!

Atleast we go dey roast Corn dey Chop bole and free lighter for the Igbo.

going by the christain narrative of hell about 80 percent or more of the people that have ever lived on earth are presently in hell as we speak. . . .because christains have never accounted for more than 30 percent of the earths population. . . . .

O boy no be small point and kill go dey happen there oh, my own be say I dey bid for firewood contract for there. Person suppose hammer join.

Bastage:

Let's take a look at those shall we?
Celsus wrote 200 years after Christ. Pliny 100 years after Christ. Lucian 300 years after Christ. Seutonias doesn't mention Jesus Christ. Thallus actually wrote to discredit the Jesus myth (ironic that one). Tacitus 100 years after Christ and his work was edited long after. Mara bar Serapion doesn't mention Jesus Christ.

Hagiographical? No.
Bullshit? Absolutely.

Every single one of those examples is either false or irrelevant. Not a single one could be classified as even remotely providing independent evidence that Christ existed. Again, I laugh in your face.

Hitler and Christianity:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_beliefs
http://nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm



You dickhead!!! That's the point of the argument. The Christians are claiming Pasteur as one of their own as a "devout" Christian and I've shown that by using the same logic criteria, they have to also take Hitler. I know that since you've joined this thread, you've shown the understanding of an imbecilic dipshit but at least try to follow what's going on.

Honestly. Try again, retard.

Want to explain to me why there isn't one single documented reference of him outside of scripture? Name the instance where Christ is mentioned outside scripture

I wonder who this slowpoke thinks he is deceiving with his absurd attempts to spin away from his earlier obtuse challenge. Faced with his requested "instance" or "one single documented reference", he now seeks to hide behind the issue of contemporaneity.

Christianity had a fringe following started by a man whose life work purpotedly lasted only 3 years, meeting the test of contemporaneity will be absurd given the era we speak of, not even scripture will meet that test, which begs the question why one has to find non-scriptural reference.

The crass attempts to twist and turn your points to fit in with a narrative is underscored by your Pasteur argument. Pasteur's non-religiosity essentially is based on an account by his grand-son, an account in contradiction of the direct evidence of Pasteur's contemporaries.

In the case of Christ, contemporaneity suddenly is paramount, in the case of Pasteur, it is thrown out of the window.

Only a cretin will seek to suggest that Pasteur's religiosity or the lack of one mirrors that of Hitler.

Bastage:

Rest assured, if it were still legal, they would probably do the same today.
The thing that amazes me, is that they try to force-feed you with fantasy, but when you come back with fact you're accused of being a "fundamentalist". If they weren't trying to jack their crap down people's throats and making outlandish statements there would be no need to continually discredit their arguments.

The absurd lack of perspective of a historical illiterate.

As you garble on ignorantly, you have freedoms that believers in atheist states today like China and North Korea can only dream of. I asked you earlier whether the 20th century produced worse mass murderers than Mao, Hitler and Stalin, and you cravenly dodged the question.

Once one subscribes to the belief that a certain school of thought has a sole claim on intelligence, there is little to stop an attempt to compel subscription to it. This obvious fact escapes ignorant souls like you.

Christianity had a fringe following started by a man whose life work purpotedly lasted only 3 years, meeting the test of contemporaneity will be absurd given the era we speak of

Utterly ridiculous.
He purportedly lived and died in a country run by some of the most avid historical documenters of any civilisation. The Romans documented everything. To claim that contemporary documentation is absurd is absurd in itself. Three years of miracles, preaching, rebellion against the Jewish authorities and a state execution would have been more than enough for a contemporary Roman to document Christ. Yet not a single one did.


The majority of the examples you give go like this:

"See Christianity. A sect started by a guy called Christ". - Pliny 100 years after Christ.

Let's put that into context:

"See Christianity. A sect started by a guy called Christ" - 4 Play 2000 years after Christ.

Your statement has as much credibility as the former (ie: absolutely none).

And let's not even mention that some of those examples you give don't even mention Christ!!!

Only a cretin will seek to suggest that Pasteur's religiosity or the lack of one mirrors that of Hitler.

No. A cretin would try to place Pasteur on the Christian bandwagon and totally ignore the similarity in the argument with Hitler.

I asked you earlier whether the 20th century produced worse mass murderers than Mao, Hitler and Stalin, and you cravenly dodged the question.

I "cravenly dodged" it because it is utterly irrelevant. The figures mentioned were involved in politics not religion.
Someone makes a statement that chicken tastes horrible so you attack cabbages. Where's the relevance?

Try harder. You're failing badly at the moment.

Bastage:

Utterly ridiculous.
He purportedly lived and died in a country run by some of the most avid historical documenters of any civilisation. The Romans documented everything. To claim that contemporary documentation is absurd is absurd in itself. Three years of miracles, preaching, rebellion against the Jewish authorities and a state execution would have been more than enough for a contemporary Roman to document Christ. Yet not a single one did.

Stop digging yourself in a hole,slowpoke. You posed an obtuse challenge which has been summarily dismissed. According to you,no single mention of Christ outside scripture.

To conjecture that the Romans must have recorded everything in all corners of their empire and if Christ lived, he necessarily would have been recorded and those records preserved for future perusal is moronic. In effect, how do you know that everything was recorded and that everything that was recorded has been preserved?

I specifically cited many ''hostile'' authors who had no reason to treat the Christ figure as authentic. Like I noted earlier, most historians do not subscribe to the relatively recent revisionist attempts to deny the fact of a Christ. This is effectively a clash of what we know, the works of non-believing authors, and conjecture, the supposed inevitability of preserved recordings of all significant events in the Roman Empire.

Like any bovine, you seem to miss the crux of the argument. The question is not whether a miracle working and rebellious Christ existed, but whether a Christ existed,whatever the actual details of his life.

No. A cretin would try to place Pasteur on the Christian bandwagon and totally ignore the similarity in the argument with Hitler.

Idiot, there is little reason to parrellel Pasteur's religiosity to that of Hitler's. Both men's values are as distinct as night and day.

I "cravenly dodged" it because it is utterly irrelevant. The figures mentioned were involved in politics not religion.
Someone makes a statement that chicken tastes horrible so you attack cabbages. Where's the relevance?Try harder. You're failing badly at the moment.

Look at this slowpoke, you crassly referred to the ''Hitlers of this world'' and proceeded to garble on ignorantly about persecution of non-believers. What Hitlers of this world when the 20th century's worst mass murderers could not by any stretch of the imagination be referred to as Christians?

Ermmm, lets not get confused here. The factuality of Jesus' existence is beyond argument. I dare say that Socrates, according to the French philosopher, Jean Jacques Rousseau (I guess y'all know this one), who was sort of like a contemporary of Jesus does not have as much verifiable documentation of his existence as does the Christ, neither does Alexander the great. But we see the relic of their existence all through history such as the evidence of Jesus' existence is obvious for all to attest to in these contemporary times. Having said that,

Now, to the issue of hell, fine the Christiandom and also the Mohammedanism all claim hell to be real, mind you I am not talking about Christ nor Mohammed here, but their ideologies that was hijacked by the politicians of the day to hoodwink their followers and to whip them in line for further expoloitation as all worldly authorities are wont to do.

I might not claim absolute knowledge of the Quran, but I know a little bit about the Bible and I know that the words that were transliterated to mean 'hell' were three different words of sheol, gehenna and hades. None of these words actually mean a place of eternal torment if taken in the context in which they were applied in the Bible. Okay, if we add the Greek word 'Tartarus' that was used in Revelation, it is not meant for humanity but it becomes the tool used by the Creator to totally annihilate the satan and he's demons.

It is appointed unto man once to die and after death the judgement. This judgement is not and can never be a place of eternal torment, had it been, maybe Jesus might have told us explicitly. Never for once was such a place mentioned, neither in the Hebrew scriptures nor in the Greek Scriptures. Moses, Elijah, Jesus, Paul, John no one mentioned a place of everlasting torment. Rather, the burning that mankind is destined to experience is that occurence of great heat that would totally consume all of creation, as even the seas would be burned up in this heat. Na so the present system go take end (2 Peter 3:7). I see no correlation here between this incident and the reality of a hell.

After this global cataclysmic event renders the Earth desolate, all the dead who were unsaved would be raised up, wetin go happen after that, we have to witness it to comprehend it. Remember, before this occurence, the dead in Christ and the righteous who are alive would be caught up to meet the King.

Now for some contradictions to the theory of hell. Those that die as sinners go to hell, abi? What about those that die righteous? Someone might say heaven I guess Na lie, anybody that dies has died awaiting either a resurrection to life or a resurrection to experience the second death. Were Lazarus in heaven, I doubt if Jesus would have deprived him the enjoyment he must have been experiencing before the raising up (I think I made this point earlier). On the other hand, if to say him dey hell, then would one say that he was repatriated from there? I guess not. He was neither in any of these two places, rather, Jesus told his disciples the status of humanity at death when he said in the St. John 11:11 that "our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may awake him from sleep", I do not think that this simple sentence needs further clarification.

Even Jesus, when he died, why did he not go to heaven until the ascension? Because as mortal man, he had already died and was only raised up with a glorified body, signifying the kind of form that mankind would emerge into the next system.

No hell, it's just one of the ruse that religion and politics employ to put the fear of authority in the hearts of men. The only assurance of salvation is Fear God, that was exactly what Jesus preached, that was exactly what Mohammed preached and that is exactly what the church and religion today is not preaching, rather they play politics and preach intolerance and cavort with the powers of this world, trying their best possible to skew the message of hope so as to lead the multitude astray.

Hell is a myth of idol worship, imported from ancient Sumeria, transported to Egypt, adopted by the Greeks and Romans, totally debunked by the early followers of Christ before the hijack by the established religious/political authority of the dark ages. Having been entrenched in doctrine and tradition now being made to look like divine revelation, more like demonic revelation if I might add.

Do not listen to hear say and I was told stuff, the Bible is there for all to peruse dammit. Just pick it up and flip through the pages, and all the hypocrisy of religion, even the way it has always been, would be laid bare before all. Brood of Vipers, thats what they were calld by the Son of man, thats what they still are today, even till the end of this system, until Shiloh comes, amen. . .

@chris
Ah, I get you now. You don't want emotions, you want incendiary rhetoric and scapel's edge intellectual arguments to persuade you into searching for God yourself. There's a debate,the Christians are losing, they simply aren't trying hard enough. Oh dear,whatever are we going to do? Chris's decision rests on whoever wins. 

You can tell I'm uninterested in the thread's debate. I'm interested in you,though,because we seemed to lose our religions at about the same time. You want guidance from men on where to look? So did I, at first. I began with the incomparable Aristotle, and was deeply submerged in my favourite Catholic of all time: Thomas Aquinas.I'm reading the minds of everybody now, from the Pythagorean school to Descartes to Jacquis Maritain to CS Lewis. No one has ever proven the existence or otherwise of God to anyone else but himself. I still think you should embark on a search yourself and arrive at your own conclusions. If you then decide there is no God, your agnosticism/atheism won't be the tattered but fashionably worn hand-me-downs one sees so much of. You won't be displaying,second-hand, other men's disbeliefs,just your own.

I know I won't stop HATING organised religion. Pentecostals with their control-freak pastors, screaming Die! die! at everything, seeing witches in children, so much hate and paranoia and vengefulness you wonder how they can stand it.  Catholic Popes insisting every sperm is sacred,none of the little suckers must be left out in the cold,all must find a home,hat in hand,like little Orhan Annie. Attributing divinity to Mary and formally dedicating the world to whatever they saw at Fatima, like the world was theirs to give away,gift-wrapped. Coming up with a well-intentioned but arbitrary and absurd list of new sins to guilt themselves back into relevance in the lives of diminishing faithfuls. New SINS? My mind boggled. Having wandered about quite a bit and been awed by chapels and cathedrals and attended mass and listened to boys' choirs so indescribably beautiful you'll think your soul has left your body, I couldn't help wondering how they could know so much beauty and be missing so many essential parts. I'll never return to insidious organised religion in any form,but I will search until I find. And I have absolutely no doubt I will find: Everything or Nothing.

Perhaps I am emotional. Perhaps I should give you  thundering theologically and intellectually sound arguments. But I mentioned I discovered I really didn't know as much as I thought, and you'll notice I post less and less here; there seemed little point. I'm embroiled in my own turmoil,in looking for my own answers,because 'God' is an intensely individual question.It's too important for other people to answer.

I can't give you the arguments you want, but  I do urge you again to attempt an original search yourself.

Mad_Max:

@chris
Ah, I get you now. You don't want emotions, you want incendiary rhetoric and scapel's edge intellectual arguments to persuade you into searching for God yourself. There's a debate,the Christians are losing, they simply aren't trying hard enough. Oh dear,whatever are we going to do? Chris's decision rests on whoever wins.

You can tell I'm uninterested in the thread's debate. I'm interested in you,though,because we seemed to lose our religions at about the same time. You want guidance from men on where to look? So did I, at first. I began with the incomparable Aristotle, and was deeply submerged in my favourite Catholic of all time: Thomas Aquinas.I'm reading the minds of everybody now, from the Pythagorean school to Descartes to Jacquis Maritain to CS Lewis. No one has ever proven the existence or otherwise of God to anyone else but himself. I still think you should embark on a search yourself and arrive at your own conclusions. If you then decide there is no God, your agnosticism/atheism won't be the tattered but fashionably worn hand-me-downs one sees so much of. You won't be displaying,second-hand, other men's disbeliefs,just your own.

[b]I know I won't stop HATING organised religion. Pentecostals with their control-freak pastors, screaming Die! die! at everything, seeing witches in children, so much hate and paranoia and vengefulness you wonder how they can stand it. Catholic Popes insisting every sperm is sacred,none of the little suckers must be left out in the cold,all must find a home,hat in hand,like little Orhan Annie. Attributing divinity to Mary and formally dedicating the world to whatever they saw at Fatima, like the world was theirs to give away,gift-wrapped. Coming up with a well-intentioned but arbitrary and absurd list of new sins to guilt themselves back into relevance in the lives of diminishing faithfuls. New SINS? My mind boggled. Having wandered about quite a bit and been awed by chapels and cathedrals and attended mass and listened to boys' choirs so indescribably beautiful you'll think your soul has left your body, I couldn't help wondering how they could know so much beauty and be missing so many essential parts. I'll never return to insidious organised religion in any form,but I will search until I find. And I have absolutely no doubt I will find: Everything or Nothing.

Perhaps I am emotional. Perhaps I should give you thundering theologically and intellectually sound arguments. But I mentioned I discovered I really didn't know as much as I thought, and you'll notice I post less and less here; there seemed little point. I'm embroiled in my own turmoil,in looking for my own answers,because 'God' is an intensely individual question.It's too important for other people to answer. [/b]
I can't give you the arguments you want, but I do urge you again to attempt an original search yourself.

You are not emotional. Rather you are genuinely searching for God. Indeed your above post is not a submission on nairaland but a sincere prayer. You are absolutely correct in your assertion that "God is an intensely individual question, its too important for other people to answer". I wish you strength and pray that you will find God. Stay blessed!

@topic
Hell is real,because the Bible says so. Striving to prove everything; therein lies the way to madness. There's nothing wrong with faith. People have to worship something, and Science is the 21st Century God. I have no doubt science will still corroborate most of the Bible.The Bible says God created a man and a woman, and we are all descended from them. So far science has declared all humanity is descended from 'a single female in antiquity.' This hasn't been disproved yet,and it's been over a decade.You'd think this would give the atheists pause.

Mad_Max:

@chris
Ah, I get you now. You don't want emotions, you want incendiary rhetoric and scapel's edge intellectual arguments to persuade you into searching for God yourself. There's a debate,the Christians are losing, they simply aren't trying hard enough. Oh dear,whatever are we going to do? Chris's decision rests on whoever wins.  

You can tell I'm uninterested in the thread's debate. I'm interested in you,though,because we seemed to lose our religions at about the same time. You want guidance from men on where to look? So did I, at first. I began with the incomparable Aristotle, and was deeply submerged in my favourite Catholic of all time: Thomas Aquinas.I'm reading the minds of everybody now, from the Pythagorean school to Descartes to Jacquis Maritain to CS Lewis. No one has ever proven the existence or otherwise of God to anyone else but himself. I still think you should embark on a search yourself and arrive at your own conclusions. If you then decide there is no God, your agnosticism/atheism won't be the tattered but fashionably worn hand-me-downs one sees so much of. You won't be displaying,second-hand, other men's disbeliefs,just your own.

I know I won't stop HATING organised religion. Pentecostals with their control-freak pastors, screaming Die! die! at everything, seeing witches in children, so much hate and paranoia and vengefulness you wonder how they can stand it.  Catholic Popes insisting every sperm is sacred,none of the little suckers must be left out in the cold,all must find a home,hat in hand,like little Orhan Annie. Attributing divinity to Mary and formally dedicating the world to whatever they saw at Fatima, like the world was theirs to give away,gift-wrapped. Coming up with a well-intentioned but arbitrary and absurd list of new sins to guilt themselves back into relevance in the lives of diminishing faithfuls. New SINS? My mind boggled. Having wandered about quite a bit and been awed by chapels and cathedrals and attended mass and listened to boys' choirs so indescribably beautiful you'll think your soul has left your body, I couldn't help wondering how they could know so much beauty and be missing so many essential parts. I'll never return to insidious organised religion in any form,but I will search until I find. And I have absolutely no doubt I will find: Everything or Nothing.

Perhaps I am emotional. Perhaps I should give you  thundering theologically and intellectually sound arguments. But I mentioned I discovered I really didn't know as much as I thought, and you'll notice I post less and less here; there seemed little point. I'm embroiled in my own turmoil,in looking for my own answers,because 'God' is an intensely individual question.It's too important for other people to answer.

I can't give you the arguments you want, but  I do urge you again to attempt an original search yourself.

@Madmax
You're reading men, are you reading the Bible? You're concerned for another, but have you secured your own salvation? I suppose God calls us to himself however he wills, and the paths to His door are many and varied. May the Lord be with you as you look for your answers. I pray He finds you. I shall be praying for you.

@max
Sweetness I feel you, I can get a picture of what you are saying. To be honest I have given up I did all the hardwork there is so now maybe I should relax and just maybe God will find me.
I don't want to go into any intellectual arguments but I tell you again how does one find what you do not know, that is why I asked who is God.
I think we are going about our paths differently, hopefully we will arrive at a conclusion. But for me if there is a God then man does not really know.
I wish you luck in your journey.
Cheers.

@max
Sweetness I feel you, I can get a picture of what you are saying. To be honest I have given up I did all the hardwork there is so now maybe I should relax and just maybe God will find me.
I don't want to go into any intellectual arguments but I tell you again how does one find what you do not know, that is why I asked who is God.
I think we are going about our paths differently, hopefully we will arrive at a conclusion. But for me if there is a God then man does not really know.
I wish you luck in your journey.
Cheers.

I tell you again how does one find what you do not know

I can only give you a bit of advice and that is to start at the beginning. Start with the only thing you do know a tiny, tiny little bit about - yourself.
Then take it from there.

Max mentions Descartes. Like all philosophers, he's heavy going, but he's a very good one to begin with. You might also like Plato's "Republic". If you take it as a book written about the self rather than a society, it's got some very interesting points. It's also quite easy to read. Realise that it was a book written at and for a specific time though - some of it's ideas are either outdated or now considered immoral. But I do recommend it.

@chris
Hmmm

@m_nwankwo
You're terribly kind. You know? Thank you.

THERE IS AN AVENUE TO KNOW WHETHER THERE IS HELL OR NOT ALL
AS YOU VCOME TO THIS PROGRAMME , THE OWNER OF THE WORLD WILL REAVEAL THIS TO YOU
YOU CAN ASK THE NEAREST DEEPER LIFE BIBLE CHURCH CLOSEST TO YOU FOR THE LOCATION OF THE PROGRAMME