@KunleOshob
The issues of does God desire that we pay tithes, of how pastors preach about tithes, and, what to do with the paid tithes are for separate considerations IMO. The issue of how the topic is addressed in most churches cannot be tackled until we reach a conclusion on the position of the bible on the issue. It is after this that we can then make a qualitative analysis of church practices on the issue. I would like you to clarify how you feel on the first point instead of trying to process them all at once. Does God desire that we pay tithes? (this refers to partying away with your material wealth, and has nothing to do with who you give it to, or to what purpose it is applied)

@Biina
To answer your question god does NOT require that we pay tithes, however as christians Gods expects us to help the less priviledge amongst us and also to contribute towards the upkeep of his ministry. And whatever we decide togive should not be given under compulsion as tithes is preached. Below is how christians were taught to give by the apostles:

2 Corinthians 9:7:
7 You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And don’t give reluctantly or in response to pressure. “For God loves a person who gives cheerfully.”

Thanks, as that puts your earlier post in a clearer perspective. One clarification needed though is that do you feel the entire mosaic law was then abolished or just the law on tithing?

Irrespective, I disagree with your interpretation of Hebrews  7:5-20 as such an interpretation would be in conflict with Matt 5:17-48, where Jesus stated that he did not come to abolish the law (but to fulfill them), and goes on to expound on the notion behind several of the mosaic laws.

The passage quoted from Hebrews (the discussion starts from chapter 6), addresses the issue of salvation through Christ (Melchizedek Priesthood) vs through sacrifice (Levitical priest hood). The passage explains the superiority of the Melchizedek to the Levitical priesthood, partly by showing that even the Levites, through Abraham, paid tithes to the former. The perfection sought is salvation and thus under the Levitical priesthood it was attained by sacrifices. This was the 'law' found weak (as it failed to draw people unto God) and thus the need for Jesus to die for our sins hereby setting a new law. He later likened Christ to Melchizedek to show the superiority of salvation through Christ.

I do agree with you on giving out of one's heart and not under compulsion. However that would be in reference to how much one should give, and not if you should give or not.

Kunle have spoken well.

Kunle,after going through your contribution,i also check the bible too,i wan to say here that giving of tithes its illegal and any pastor that collects same sinned against God.

yes its illegal to give tithe,but the pastors would not want to hear that cos of their greediness.

biina:

Thanks, as that puts your earlier post in a clearer perspective. One clarification needed though is that do you feel the entire mosaic law was then abolished or just the law on tithing?

Irrespective, I disagree with your interpretation of Hebrews  7:5-20 as such an interpretation would be in conflict with Matt 5:17-48, where Jesus stated that he did not come to abolish the law (but to fulfill them), and goes on to expound on the notion behind several of the mosaic laws.

(skip)

I do agree with you on giving out of one's heart and not under compulsion. However that would be in reference to how much one should give, and not if you should give or not.

You may wish to check the definitions of fulfill here
It includes:

2 a: to put into effect : execute
b: to meet the requirements of (a business order)
c: to bring to an end

You should also note the rendering, at Christ's death, of the veil separating the Holy of Holies in the Teample and its significance.
My understanding is that while Christ had not died and resurrected, the laws were still operational but His sacrifice fulfilled the law, hence Paul's explanation in Hebrews to Jews who had a background of such laws as opposed to Gentiles who did not.
BTW, your conclusion above is what everyone opposed to tithes on this forum also share- no compulsion in giving! However, pastors overtly and subtly compel members to tithe, vow, sow a seed in order for god to bless them or so god will not curse them. Must be a cheap god their god, methinks.

anonimi,you ve spoken well,in Deu 14:22-end it talks about you eating your tithe with your family,not one pastor that reads the bible from behind will compell you to give tithe,some will say you must give 10%of your basic salary,why some will ask you to pay 10% of your gross total income.i have read the bible time and time again,there is no place that Jesus asked us to pay tithe,he only talk on you giving freely not under compulsion.We are to follow the teaching of Christ because we are all following His foot step.We have alot of greedy and hungry pastors out there that would not tell you the truth when it comes to tithe issue,because of what they will loose if they should tell you. so my advice is that we should all be close to our bibles than close to a mere man called pastor.

@anonimi
I am not sure I understand your point on the definition of "fulfill".

My argument was in line with what Paul said in his epistle to the Romans (more specifically chapter 3), in that while the laws have failed to achieve their purpose, they are not sin, and understanding the notion behind the laws will bring us closer to God.

IMO, we can debate on who/where to pay your tithe or what fraction of which income to pay, but I am against you keeping it in your pocket , as in doing so, you rob God

if u don't pay ur thithe then ur life will bee tight

simple and short

Enockia is that what your pastor told you?and from where did he get that from the scripture,pls expantiate .

yes lets stop given tithe cos its not biblical.Deu 14:22

biina:

Thanks, as that puts your earlier post in a clearer perspective. One clarification needed though is that do you feel the entire mosaic law was then abolished or just the law on tithing?

Irrespective, I disagree with your interpretation of Hebrews  7:5-20 as such an interpretation would be in conflict with Matt 5:17-48, where Jesus stated that he did not come to abolish the law (but to fulfill them), and goes on to expound on the notion behind several of the mosaic laws.

The passage quoted from Hebrews (the discussion starts from chapter 6), addresses the issue of salvation through Christ (Melchizedek Priesthood) vs through sacrifice (Levitical priest hood). The passage explains the superiority of the Melchizedek to the Levitical priesthood, partly by showing that even the Levites, through Abraham, paid tithes to the former. The perfection sought is salvation and thus under the Levitical priesthood it was attained by sacrifices. This was the 'law' found weak (as it failed to draw people unto God) and thus the need for Jesus to die for our sins hereby setting a new law. He later likened Christ to Melchizedek to show the superiority of salvation through Christ.

I do agree with you on giving out of one's heart and not under compulsion. However that would be in reference to how much one should give, and not if you should give or not.

Even though it is now very obvious form thhe numerous postings on this thread that tithing is not required of christians and that pro tithers have a very weak case for their utterances and allusions. I would just like to ask one question: IS THERE ANY CHRISTIAN REQUIREMENT IN THE NEW TESTAMENT(which chrisitanity is based on) FOR BELIEVERS TO TITHE or put this way; IS THERE ANY BASIS FOR TITHING FROM THE TEACHINGS OF jESUS OR ANY OF THE APOSTLES WHO ESTABLISHED CHRISTIANITY IS THERE ANY BIBLICAL RECORD OF THE EARLY CHRISTIANS TITHING

KunleOshob:

Even though it is now very obvious form thhe numerous postings on this thread that tithing is not required of christians and that pro tithers have a very weak case for their utterances and allusions. I would just like to ask one question: IS THERE ANY CHRISTIAN REQUIREMENT IN THE NEW TESTAMENT(which chrisitanity is based on) FOR BELIEVERS TO TITHE or put this way; IS THERE ANY BASIS FOR TITHING FROM THE TEACHINGS OF jESUS OR ANY OF THE APOSTLES WHO ESTABLISHED CHRISTIANITY IS THERE ANY BIBLICAL RECORD OF THE EARLY CHRISTIANS TITHING

kunle, where would the churches you are asking to offer free education and free medical services get thier fundings from? where would the church get running cost from? where in the new testament did Jesus require people following His teachings to join baptist church?

KunleOshob:

Even though it is now very obvious form thhe numerous postings on this thread that tithing is not required of christians and that pro tithers have a very weak case for their utterances and allusions. I would just like to ask one question: IS THERE ANY CHRISTIAN REQUIREMENT IN THE NEW TESTAMENT(which chrisitanity is based on) FOR BELIEVERS TO TITHE or put this way; IS THERE ANY BASIS FOR TITHING FROM THE TEACHINGS OF jESUS OR ANY OF THE APOSTLES WHO ESTABLISHED CHRISTIANITY IS THERE ANY BIBLICAL RECORD OF THE EARLY CHRISTIANS TITHING

Matthew 23:23
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

same is referenced in Luke 11:42

The Pharisees were Jews, and they were not Christians. They were required to follow the Old Testament law.

By the way, if this verse is the basis for tithing, then you should tithes all your perfumes and foodstuffs too.

JJYOU:

kunle, where would the churches you are asking to offer free education and free medical services get thier fundings from? where would the church get running cost from? where in the new testament did Jesus require people following His teachings to join baptist church?

This churches that you are refering to that built their schools and hospitals with with tithes money and offerings don't even offer free or subsidized services. to answer your question were did the early missionaries that provided our parents and grand parents with free and qualitave education get the funding from?? Thirdly is it right for a church that claims to be serving God to resort to scriptural manipulation, outright lies and fraud all in the name of tithing to raise funds for the church? To make matters worse these churches do not even use the money to do what they were mandated to use it for in the bible which is mostly charity.
I have never advocated for anyone to join the baptist church on this forum, even though i attend the baptist church, i consider myself non-denominational as i don't believe denomination(division) of the church which your pastors so aptly promote today.

biina:

Matthew 23:23
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

same is referenced in Luke 11:42

This is clearly NOT a basis for christian tithing, here Jesus was speaking to pharisses who were under the law of moses and were oblidged to tithe as the law of Moses was still in force at that time. Also it was not a command to tithe but merely a cpomment. Thirdly what was being tithed here is mint, dill, cummin. (agricultural produce) and not money or income as it as been manipulated to be by our mordern day pharisees(pastors) for the sake of their greed and lust for filthy lucre.

KunleOshob:

This is clearly NOT a basis for christian tithing, here Jesus was speaking to pharisses who were under the law of moses and were oblidged to tithe as the law of Moses was still in force at that time. Also it was not a command to tithe but merely a cpomment. Thirdly what was being tithed here is mint, dill, cummin. (agricultural produce) and not money or income as it as been manipulated to be by our mordern day pharisees(pastors) for the sake of their greed and lust for filthy lucre.

I don't know what you mean by 'christian tithing' or your basis for classifying the statement as 'merely a comment'.
If you read the entire chapter, Jesus was preaching to a crowd, telling them what to do and not to follow the acts of pharisees. The statement wasn't directed specifically at the pharisees.
You tithe what you earn, and since money is the common means of transferring value, I don't see what is wrong in tithing in monetary terms.  If you are a farmer, you are free to tithe your produce.

The crux of your argument rests on your believe that the laws are not applicable to Christians. This I disagree with, as I feel it is incoherent with the rest of the bible. Reading Paul's epistle to the Romans might help to shed some light on where I stand in terms of the law and Christianity. The notion behind every law is still quite relevant to a christian, as paul said in

Romans 3:27-31
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

and
Roman 7:7-25
What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. [/b]For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. [b]So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Anyways, each is free to worship God in his own way.

KunleOshob:

This churches that you are refering to that built their schools and hospitals with with tithes money and offerings don't even offer free or subsidized services. o answer your question were did the early missionaries that provided our parents and grand parents with freeand qualitave education get the funding from?? Thirdly is it right for a church that claims to be serving God to resort to scriptural manipulation, outright lies and fraud all in the name of tithing to raise funs for the church? To make matters worse these churches do not even use the money to do what they were mandated to use it for in the bible which is mostly charity.
I have never advocated for anyone to join the baptist church on this forum, even though i attend the baptist church, i consider myself non-denominational as i don't believe denomination(division) of the church which your pastors so aptly promote today.

saint kunle AKA mr know it all, how do you know my pastor and what he promote today? you seem to take lightlythe matter of being judgemental of people you dont know. i hope you know we will all account for whatever we choose to say in this life time and seun backing you on his NL will not spare you on that day.

my question was where you saw the verse asking you to join baptist church not you advocating.

JJYOU:

kunle, where would the churches you are asking to offer free education and free medical services get thier fundings from? where would the church get running cost from? where in the new testament did Jesus require people following His teachings to join baptist church?

would you kindly answer this simple question oga

where would the churches you are asking to offer free education and free medical services get thier fundings from? where would the church get running cost from?

JJYOU:

kunle, where would the churches you are asking to offer free education and free medical services get thier fundings from? where would the church get running cost from?

From honestly solicited and freelly given offerings and contributions of their members.

@binna
You obviously don't understand this issue of law very well, but i am quite certain you don't practise the law else you would still be doing sacrificial offerings and observing the sabbath amongst several other mosaic laws(how come it is only the tithing law that is being ressurected?), however christ's death fufilled the law and it is no longer relevant to christians i would suggest you read the whole of galatians 3&5 to understand the christian perspective of the law very well. The romans scriptures you were quoting were quoted vstly out of context. Whilst the law was not condenmed the purpose of it was fufilled with the death and ressurection of Jesus and those trying to put themselves right by obeying the law are cutting themselves away from the grace of christ.

Romans 10:4:
4For Christ is the end of the Law [the limit at which it ceases to be, for the Law leads up to Him Who is the fulfillment of its types, and in Him the purpose which it was designed to accomplish is fulfilled. That is, the purpose of the Law is fulfilled in Him] as the means of righteousness (right relationship to God) for everyone who trusts in and adheres to and relies on Him.

Biina and co, winners has a university,also Reedemed, church of God mission just to mention just few,all these institutions were built with the contributions of the members. And most amazing thing is that even these members cant even send their wards to these schools,the fees are only for the ministers, senators etc children that can only afford it. So i am a pastor,i dont force people to gve tithe,despite there is no place in the new testament were Jesus preached on tithe,even in the testament were it is written,pastors have so much bastardize Mal 3:8 to support their reason for collecting tithe, while this particular chapter was for the Levites,and non of the pastors talk on Deu14:22 because this does not favour them.

Thats the bitter truth that other greedy pastor will not tell you. Because they would rather die than to stop collecting tithe.

I quite agree wit you,thd most anoying part of it is that the universities owned by these big churches charge the highest fee in this country,if you are not the son of high and mighty you cant get through to their universities.

@KunleOshob
I believe I understand the issue of the law well enough, otherwise on what is my faith built? I never said you should practice the law to the letter as it is defined in Leviticus. All I have ever said is that the notion behind the law is what is important and still relevant.

We all know (I hope) that obedience is better than sacrifice. The law was not given unto itself, but rather to draw man towards God. When the law stated that people should be put to death for sinning, it was not to justify the killing of the sinner, but to sway people away from sin. The laws failed in achieving the latter, but that does not make the purpose of the law invalid. Hence Jesus was able to compand and expand the law (Matthew 5), without changing the notion behind them. After all, God changeth not, and his desires of us are unchanged as well.  To abolish the law, which is what you say, is directly against Mathew 5:17.
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them

'Thou shall not kill' is stated in the mosaic laws, but was applied to Cain before the law was stated.
In Romans 13:8-10
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law
it is shown that the above law, along with the others are based on the notion to love thy neighbor. This is consistent throughout the bible

Earlier I asked you a question as to why Abraham paid tithe to Melchizedek, and why Jacob also swore to pay a tenth unto God. You parried the question saying they did it of their own free will. People accept Christ of their own free will, does that mean that God does not desire it? Cain and Abel gave offerings unto God, were they obeying the mosaic law? Abraham and Jacob were two of the few characters  in Genesis (before the mosaic laws) that were highly favored by God, and yet you say that their actions are irrelevant, for it was done of their free will. In the true sense of it, all is done of free will and none is forced, hence you will be judged for your actions and/or inaction.

The issue of giving your tithe to God and of a pastor or church receiving it are two separate things. I gave you my understanding of Malachi 3:8, in that God desire that you pay your tithe to him (else you rob God), but the physical manner in which to pay it depends on the individual. The latter is up for debate, the former I believe is not. I do not agree that the entirety of your income should dwell in your pockets.  You can say that the pastors do not qualify to receive tithe as the levitical priesthood is superseded, but that does not change the fact that you should give your tithe unto the Lord.

It is stated in Leviticus 27:30
A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD
which made no reference to levis, rather the levis were  addressed in Numbers 18:21
[i]"I give to the Levites all the tithes in Israel as their inheritance in return for the work they do while serving at the Tent of Meeting.[/i]
The tithe belongs to God and he gave it to the Levis as their wages, and they also were required to still pay a tithe to the Lord (or would they have paid unto themselves) as in
Numbers 18:26
Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the LORD, even a tenth part of the tithe.
If you feel that Leviticus 27:30 is no longer valid, based on the passages of Hebrews and Galatians, then I believe we have irreconcilable differences, as I have stated that i feel you are abusing those passages.

We can argue as to if one working full time in the service of the Lord deserves to receive of the tithes, or if one with a regular job should not. Should the church consume the money of its own, or even if you should pay your tithe where you worship. You can pay to orphanages, charities or whatever cause you deem fit, as long as the cause is in line with the word of God. The giving is not tied to the receiving.

realpastor:

Biina and co, winners has a university,also Reedemed, church of God mission just to mention just few,all these institutions were built with the contributions of the members. And most amazing thing is that even these members cant even send their wards to these schools,the fees are only for the ministers, senators etc children that can only afford it. So i am a pastor,i dont force people to gve tithe,despite there is no place in the new testament were Jesus preached on tithe,even in the testament were it is written,pastors have so much bastardize Mal 3:8 to support their reason for collecting tithe, while this particular chapter was for the Levites,and non of the pastors talk on Deu14:22 because this does not favour them.

Personally I do not approve of the church owning a university (or being involved in any form of business for that matter) and would rather have a full time pastor. Still I disagree with justifying one wrong in te name of another.

You say you do not force people to give tithe, then I ask do you force them to accept Christ? I doubt you do, and yet all Christians believe that those who do not accept Christ are set for damnation. The freedom of choice is not taken away even on the most important issue of salvation, rather it is what God desires of us that we (try to) do in faith. To use the word force is an exaggeration, though some pastors are known to try to put pressure on people to contribute (and not just their tithes).

You can accuse some pastors of abusing the scriptures to benefit their selfish goals, but that does not change the truth behind the scripture. It was same for the Pharisees, their actions did not change the truth of the law. Even the devil tried to manipulate the scripture, but this does not change the scripture.

Jesus never took from his congregation. He never passed around a basket or tray to receive pledges and donations at the end of each sermon. He never asked for a payment. Nor did he ever tell his disciples to accept money for their assistance as found in Matthew 10:8-10: “Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give. Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.”

We are living the new testament life,and tithe was not preached in the new testament. Why is it that is only the Tithe that the so called pastors smuggled into the new testament life.

Tithe should not be a die affair issue. I dont force my members to give tithe.but building them to make heaven.

If you are saying NO, be careful b'cos some men of GOLD are angry. They want you to say YES.
Abeg, let's follow the word. If I have to give to the poor or to support any course, I don't call it TITHE, I just call it giving.
That way I help myself to run away from falsehood.

I quite agree wit u realpastor.

But thats the truth my friends.