bindex:

I don't know much about the babylonain Talmud, but it could be another christain forgery like that of Josephus.

this about sums you up really.

Read up on the babylonian talmud and the other authors . . . they had nothing to do with christian influence. It was compiled by jewish scholars . . . and you of all people shld know that jews were no friends of christians.

Here are a few christian allegations against the talmud:

Anti-Christian or anti-Gentile content
Insults against Jesus or the Virgin Mary
Absurd or sexually immoral content
Falsification of scripture

To continue to peddle the lie that Josephus was a fraud pretty much puts you in the realm of irrelevance to be honest.

Such a huge shame . . . its one thing to hate religion, its another to attempt to wade through the tide of overwhelming history.

Is there any other reason no one takes you people seriously?

bindex:

And as for Josephus, It doesn't really matter what you call it. The undisputed fact is that Josephus didn't write it. AND whoever wrote it, it was heresay. The original request was for one single solitary first hand account outside the New Testament. Still waiting,

please let no one say i no longer have any reason to call these people the worst bunch of intellectual midgets i've ever seen.

A wikipedia entry on Josephus:

Josephus (AD 37 – c. 100),[1] also known as Yosef Ben Matityahu (Joseph, son of Matthias) and, after he became a Roman citizen, as Titus Flavius Josephus,[2] was a first-century Jewish historian and apologist of priestly and royal ancestry who survived and recorded the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. His works give an important insight into first-century Judaism.

Josephus's two most important works are The Jewish War (c. 75) and Antiquities of the Jews (c. 94).[3] The Jewish War recounts the Jewish revolt against Rome (66–70). Antiquities of the Jews recounts the history of the world from a Jewish perspective. These works provide valuable insight into the background of first century Judaism and early Christianity.[3]

'nuff said.

Its the way they blab about "undisputed facts" that gets me . . .

@ Davidlan,

Kidding yourself again.

You have no archaelogical evidence?

Show us the prove that Jesus or any of the bible characters were really in Egypt?

You can't and you won't because they didn't exist?

You still haven't found Jesus bones yet?

Or did he take them with him to heaven?

kill youselves u atheists,still wont change d fact dat d GOD OF THE BIBLE exists for real

More.

Horus was the the ‘son’ of God in Egypt. He was derived from the Babylonian
Tammuz and, in turn, provided another blueprint for the later Jesus. The
connections are devastating for the credibility of the Christian Church: Jesus was
the Light of the World. Horus was the Light of the World. Jesus said he was the
way, the truth and the life. Horus said he was the truth, the life. Jesus was born in
Bethlehem, the ‘house of bread’. Horus was born in Annu, the ‘place of bread’.
Jesus was the Good Shepherd. Horus was the Good Shepherd. Seven fishers board a
boat with Jesus. Seven people board a boat with Horus. Jesus was the lamb. Horus
was the lamb. Jesus is identified with a cross. Horus is identified with a cross. Jesus
was baptised at 30. Horus was baptised at 30. Jesus was the child of a virgin, Mary.
Horus was the child of a virgin, Isis. The birth of Jesus was marked by a star. The
birth of Horus was marked by a star. Jesus was the child teacher in the temple. Horus
was the child teacher in the temple. Jesus had 12 disciples. Horus had 12 followers.
Jesus was the Morning Star. Horus was the Morning Star. Jesus was the Christ. Horus
was the Krst. Jesus was tempted on a mountain by Satan. Horus was tempted on a
mountain by Set.
Jesus is said to be the ‘judge of the dead’. He has some competition there. This was
also said of the earlier Nimrod, Khrishna, Buddha, Ormuzd, Osiris, Aeacus and others.
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. So was Khrishna, Buddha, Laokiun,
Bacchus, Zeus and others. Jesus is claimed to have performed miracles such as
healing the sick and raising people from the dead. So did Khrishna, Buddha, Zoroaster,
Bochia, Horus, Osiris, Serapis, Marduk, Bacchus, Hermes and others. Jesus was born
of royal blood. So was Buddha, Rama, Fo-hi, Horus, Hercules, Bacchus, Perseus and
others. Jesus was born to a virgin. So was Khrishna, Buddha, Lao-kiun or tsze,
Confusius, Horus, Ra, Zoroaster, Prometheus, Perseus, Apollo, Mercury, Baldur,
Quetzalcoatl and far too many others to mention. Jesus will, we are told, be born
again. The sky is going to be rather crowded because Khrishna, Vishnu, Buddha,
Quetzalcoatl and others, will also be there. The ‘star’ at the birth of
Jesus is another multideity story and goes back at least to the
Babylonian tale of Nimrod who, in a dream, saw a brilliant star
rising above the horizon. The soothsayers told him that this foretold
the birth of a child who would become a great prince.

Yes he is real in your disillusion.

@Davidlan

What you are hiding? Running from a question? I though you said you were a scientist. You not serious.

Waiting for Busybody to answer for you.

@Busybody

What is a atheist? Do you know what that is? Tell us. Let's see if you know what an atheist is.

And calm down done don't get high blood pressure, I don't want you to get a stroke?
Can you help your brother display or produce any evidence of the existence of Jesus. You know the hippie Jesus

davidylan:

please let no one say i no longer have any reason to call these people the worst bunch of intellectual midgets i've ever seen.

A wikipedia entry on Josephus:

Josephus (AD 37 – c. 100),[1] also known as Yosef Ben Matityahu (Joseph, son of Matthias) and, after he became a Roman citizen, as Titus Flavius Josephus,[2] was a first-century Jewish historian and apologist of priestly and royal ancestry who survived and recorded the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. His works give an important insight into first-century Judaism.

Josephus's two most important works are The Jewish War (c. 75) and Antiquities of the Jews (c. 94).[3] The Jewish War recounts the Jewish revolt against Rome (66–70). Antiquities of the Jews recounts the history of the world from a Jewish perspective. These works provide valuable insight into the background of first century Judaism and early Christianity.[3]

'nuff said.

Its the way they blab about "undisputed facts" that gets me . . .

I remember you discarding some one on another thread because the source he produced to buttress his argument was from wikipedia, now you are quick to allude to wikipedia. davidylan. from the same wikipedia

The authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum has been disputed since the 17th century, and by the mid 18th century the consensus view was that it was a forgery. This conclusion was questioned in the 20th century and the intellectual controversy will probably never be resolved.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus  

The other passage simply mentions Jesus as the brother of James, also known as James the Just. Though most scholars consider this passage genuine [1], its authenticity as been disputed by Emil Schürer as well by several recent popular writers.  

How did you debunk any of the my claim that his work were forged by christains?  I gave you reasons to show that his work were interpolated by the christains and all you did was discard it as an off hand and lame attempt

 Arguments for the interpolation of this passage consist of the following: (1) Problems of textual conformity between manuscripts, (2) peculiar placement in the text, (3) odd use of Josephan language, (4) the use of pro-Christian language, (5) lack of mention specifically in any other earlier Christian source including Justin Martyr and Origen, (6) the earliest attestation we have, that of Eusebius’ Ecclesiastical Histories, he places the Testimonium after Josephus’ account of John the Baptist, and finally (7) Eusebius has an alternate version of the text himself in another work.

The problems of conformity of the manuscripts are a huge deal, although generally not touched upon by dissenters of the Josephan controversy over the Testimonium. The first attestation to this passage is found in the forth century, and even then it seems to not have been set in stone, as Steve Mason[1] cites that Jerome (p. 230) had a different version of the transcript in his Lives of Illustrious Men, and in the 10th century yet an additional manuscript is found in Agapius (ibid.). But it doesn’t stop there, as Michael, the Patriarch of Antioch quotes another variant text in the 12th century. So many alterations exist. Mason asks, “Where did such equivocal versions of Josephus’ account come from?” (p. 231) And not least of all, the fact that there are alternative translations which exist from Robert Eisler[2] and John P. Meier[3] spark additional questions. Why are there no copies of Josephus before Eusebius in the fourth century for scholarship to adequately translate? Perhaps Christians didn’t feel the need to preserve it beforehand, and that should raise additional red flags.

The peculiar placement of the text is additionally odd. Looking at the text from a distance, without really comparing the accounts of the context around the Testimonium, it may seem possible that it fits. It does deal with Pilate, that is for sure, and certainly it contains accounts of followers of a cult, referred to as a “tribe,” that Josephus didn’t hold to, much like those of the cult of Isis he discusses a section down. But further examination reveals a troubling reality. After Pilate arrives in Judea, Josephus follows with two incidents; (a) Pilate allows the Roman images into Jerusalem during the night, and (b) Pilate’s use of temple funds to build an aqueduct. Immediately following the Testimonium, (c) Josephus discusses the destruction of the temple of Isis and the crucifixion of Egyptian priests, (d) Jews are expelled from Rome because of Jewish troublemakers, and (e) Pilate destroyed the Samaritan movement and their settlement at Gerizim. Mason states that, “Like a tourist negotiating a bustling, raucous Middle-Eastern market who accidentally walks through the door of a monastery, suffused with light and peace, the reader of Josephus is struck by this sublime portrait.” (p. 227) Events (a), (b) and (e) involve incidents that look unfavorably upon Pilate, but the Testimonium blames the fiasco of the crucifixion not on Pilate—who seems more like a puppet being played—but on the “denunciation by the leading men among us.” Every single event save for the Testimonium in Antiquities 18 is described as some form of outrage or uprising, yet there is no tumultuous event here, no uprising to speak of. Overall, Mason makes the observance that “he is pointing out the follow of Jewish rebels, governors, and troublemakers,” (ibid.) yet in the Testimonium, Josephus speaks highly of Jesus and his followers, a stark contrast to the rest of the context. Finally, Josephus starts the section concerning the Isis temple as “another outrage,” for which George A. Wells[4] and others have argued both events (b) and (c) to have originally been adjacent, leaving the probability for the Testimonium to have been inserted later.[5]
 

It's funny christain rely on a controversial writer that did not witness any of the accounts of the bible to prove the existence of their God   as Sam Harris says the christain God is very good at covering is tracks.  

davidylan:

this about sums you up really.

Read up on the babylonian talmud and the other authors . . . they had nothing to do with christian influence. It was compiled by jewish scholars . . . and you of all people shld know that jews were no friends of christians.

Here are a few christian allegations against the talmud:

Anti-Christian or anti-Gentile content
Insults against Jesus or the Virgin Mary
Absurd or sexually immoral content
Falsification of scripture

To continue to peddle the lie that Josephus was a fraud pretty much puts you in the realm of irrelevance to be honest.

Such a huge shame . . . its one thing to hate religion, its another to attempt to wade through the tide of overwhelming history.

Is there any other reason no one takes you people seriously?

You have not debunked any of my claims all you are doing is to droping one liners and blanket statements and declearing that people that do not agree with you are liars without any evidence. As for the writings of Josephus I personally would contend that an interpolation of a text that is not marked as such and attributed to the original author amounts to forgery. That is even true, if the source of the interpolation thought it to be legitimate to do so. Of course the standards in that regard where different 1700 years ago, but this does not mean that we have to apply these old (or absent) standards now. This is true regardless of whether the content of the interpolation was factually correct or not. Not marking it as interpolation makes it forgery.

By the way why do you need to cap nearly all of your posts with aggressions disguised as wisecracks? What do you hope to gain by that?

Why are you listing people that existed 100's of years after the alleged death of Jesus as proof that he existed, by the way most of them were talking about christains not even Jesus. I repeat The original request was for one single solitary first hand account outside the New Testament. Still waiting. Even the gospels were not first hand accounts, because all were written years after the alleged death of Jesus.

Kuns:



@Busybody

What is a atheist? Do you know what that is? Tell us. Let's see if you know what an atheist is.

And calm down done don't get high blood pressure, I don't want you to get a stroke?
Can you help your brother display or produce any evidence of the existence of Jesus. You know the hippie Jesus

I'm sure u r nt asking me this qstions yea,because my name is busybein and not busybody
but let me help busybody answer for u

go to the dictionary and check for the word "atheist" I'm sure u will get d answer u r looking for there

as for blood pressure,hahahahahahahahahahaha  my dear I'm listening to one sweet music jare,u r d one trying to kill yourself not me,because i really don't care about what u people post here

@Frizy
Thank u, It's God n my mama, ha ha, u r welcome 2 join christianity anytime, ne day

@Daviddylan
I like the way u r giving it back to them, the haters n doubters

@Kuns
Show us proof that wat the scientists are saying is true, show us proff on how we came to being, things around us like the air, why we cease to live (death), sound, doesn't that amaze u. Show us proof too that wat u believe in "Nothing" is true n real?? n my dear, Jesus Christ ascended into heaven, as u r full body n soul, where r ur own bones?

@Zoraro, ur name even sounds like an alien, one that isnt of this earth

@busybein
That's my girl, tht's wat we talking 'bout, God of the Bible exists, as long as I keep breathing n u atheists r breathing, The same God is responsible for these,

CHRISTIANITY is a Play, you know like Acting (as in Acts of Apostles), they were acting a play. Which late turned into a religion.

The New Testament, the Church, and Christianity were all creations of Calpurnius Piso’s family, who were Roman Aristocrats.

The New Testament and all the characters in it, including Jesus, all the Josephs, all the Mary’s, all the Disciples, Apostles, Paul, and John the Baptist are fictional.

The Piso’s created the story and the characters and they tied the story into a specific time and place in history.

Then they connected it with some peripheral actual people, such as the Herods, Gamaliel, the Roman procurators, etc.

But Jesus and everyone involved with him were created (that is, fictional!) characters.

The whole story of Jesus was made up as a big play by the Romans, and[b] Jesus was made a hero savior by Piso. [/b]

The story of Joseph in Egypt was rewritten, then inserted into the Gospel of Jesus. Isn’t that a coincidence? The story came from Tama-Re (Egypt), and this is something I’ve been telling you for years.

Monicaa:

@busybein
That's my girl, that's what we talking 'bout, God of the Bible exists, as long as I keep breathing n u atheists r breathing, The same God is responsible for these,

offtopic:

come oo dat ur ex is very stupid and blind to have done wat he did to u ,goshhhh u r pretty girl

@Busybein

Thanks dear, most men r really confused, It's his insecurity after few years together but he's trying to get back, though I know i can't get back wit him, trying to keep my distance n keep moving on, Not 2 say that there aren't guys but u know love they say is blind,

bindex:

How did you debunk any of the my claim that his work were forged by christains?  I gave you reasons to show that his work were interpolated but the christains and all you did was discard it as an off hand and lame attempt

e.g. what "reasons" did you give?
You simply made a claim and u're asking that i debunk it?

bindex:

You have not debunked any of my claims all you are doing is to droping one liners and blanket statements and declearing that people that do not agree with you are liars without any evidence.

Where is your evidence for the claims you say i shld debunk?

Follish liars . . . he makes a blanket claim then says i gave no evidence for calling him out as a liar.

You say Josephus was a fraud . . . how? Where is your evidence?

@Busybein is a busybody

Dictionary, I asked you what atheist means? What you want me to look it up for you in a dictionary.

What you need someone to dictate it too you?

Ok, what you need the oyinbo man to dictate it for you by way of a dictionary? Actually, it should of being called definitionary, Because it defines word.

What, instead of dictating to you, you should define it yourself.

Step from the slave mentality or the slave masters mindset.

Monicaa:

@Busybein

Thanks dear,  most men r really confused,  It's his insecurity after few years together  but he's trying to get back, though I know i can't get back wit him, trying to keep my distance n keep moving on,  Not 2 say that there aren't guys but u know love they say is blind,

be strong,what u need is a man that will have u and face watever challenges and insecurities that comes his way,afterall bianca is still married to ojukwu  

seriously u need to be strong,its all left to u,but i wouldnt advise u going back,because it will bring more heart aches,lies,unfaithfulness all from his side,u don't need a man that wil break up and come back anytime he wants,u need a real man,trust me honey,trust me

Kuns:

@Busybein is a busybody

Dictionary, I asked you what atheist means? What you want me to look it up for you in a dictionary.

What you need someone to dictate it too you?

Ok, what you need the oyinbo man to dictate it for you by way of a dictionary? Actually, it should of being called definitionary, Because it defines word.

What, instead of dictating to you, you should define it yourself.

Step from the slave mentality or the slave masters mindset.

d english u know,were u not taught?did ur teachers not use dictionaries in school?dont u use dictonaries?did the words u were taught in skool just fall from d sky?so use a dictionary and get d answer u want

Women dont clean their armpits? Have you seen a fashion model with bushy armpit before? Did any prophet keep their armpit, unshavened? Are you certain that Jesus never shaved his armpit? Are you sure that Jesus never left his beard?

Modupe; You need to clarify your armpit comment. It is uncouth and uncivilzed for a woman to be bushy there. My mother cleaned her armpit, religiously.

KarmaMod: am waiting for your response. Aji shee bi yoruba lanri. Afinju ni Yoruba o. Obun o dara, rara.

It's almost 2009 years and your Jesus of 2000 years hasn't come yet.

Why do christians keep saying Jesus of 2000 year ago, when looking for customers?

@Busybein
Thanks dear, honestly Moving on hasn't felt much easier but sometimes the pain is still there especilly when u really love sum1, he was a fine man but i wasn't as insecure as he was, he knows i love him thats y he's back now but like u sai, the lies, heartache n those emotional drama aint worth it. Living my life.

@Kuns, since u dont wanna use the dictionary, here's my own definition of an atheist, someone that doesn't believe in God or his existence, finish

and Jesus surely will come again at his own time not Kuns' time

Kuns:

It's almost 2009 years and your Jesus of 2000 years hasn't come yet.

Why do christians keep saying Jesus of 2000 year ago, when looking for customers?

the ways of God r higher than the ways of men like kunu abi burukutu,whichever is ur name

davidylan:

e.g. what "reasons" did you give?
You simply made a claim and u're asking that i debunk it?

Where is your evidence for the claims you say i shld debunk?

Follish liars . . . he makes a blanket claim then says i gave no evidence for calling him out as a liar.

You say Josephus was a fraud . . . how? Where is your evidence?

you are a very dishonest person. You provided an entry from wikipedia to buttress your point that Josepus was real. here is what you wrote

A wikipedia entry on Josephus:

Josephus (AD 37 – c. 100),[1] also known as Yosef Ben Matityahu (Joseph, son of Matthias) and, after he became a Roman citizen, as Titus Flavius Josephus,[2] was a first-century Jewish historian and apologist of priestly and royal ancestry who survived and recorded the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. His works give an important insight into first-century Judaism.

Josephus's two most important works are The Jewish War (c. 75) and Antiquities of the Jews (c. 94).[3] The Jewish War recounts the Jewish revolt against Rome (66–70). Antiquities of the Jews recounts the history of the world from a Jewish perspective. These works provide valuable insight into the background of first century Judaism and early Christianity.[3]

'nuff said.
 

and from the same wikipedia I provided evidence to show that there is a consensus that his work was forged.

The authenticity of the Testimonium Flavianum has been disputed since the 17th century, and by the mid 18th century the consensus view was that it was a forgery. This conclusion was questioned in the 20th century and the intellectual controversy will probably never be resolved.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus  

I went ahead and gave you reasons to show that there was obvious interpolation in his works, but as usual you are screaming that i did not provide any evidence. Here it is once again.

Arguments for the interpolation of this passage consist of the following: (1) Problems of textual conformity between manuscripts, (2) peculiar placement in the text, (3) odd use of Josephan language, (4) the use of pro-Christian language, (5) lack of mention specifically in any other earlier Christian source including Justin Martyr and Origen, (6) the earliest attestation we have, that of Eusebius’ Ecclesiastical Histories, he places the Testimonium after Josephus’ account of John the Baptist, and finally (7) Eusebius has an alternate version of the text himself in another work.

The problems of conformity of the manuscripts are a huge deal, although generally not touched upon by dissenters of the Josephan controversy over the Testimonium. The first attestation to this passage is found in the forth century, and even then it seems to not have been set in stone, as Steve Mason[1] cites that Jerome (p. 230) had a different version of the transcript in his Lives of Illustrious Men, and in the 10th century yet an additional manuscript is found in Agapius (ibid.). But it doesn’t stop there, as Michael, the Patriarch of Antioch quotes another variant text in the 12th century. So many alterations exist. Mason asks, “Where did such equivocal versions of Josephus’ account come from?” (p. 231) And not least of all, the fact that there are alternative translations which exist from Robert Eisler[2] and John P. Meier[3] spark additional questions. Why are there no copies of Josephus before Eusebius in the fourth century for scholarship to adequately translate? Perhaps Christians didn’t feel the need to preserve it beforehand, and that should raise additional red flags.

The peculiar placement of the text is additionally odd. Looking at the text from a distance, without really comparing the accounts of the context around the Testimonium, it may seem possible that it fits. It does deal with Pilate, that is for sure, and certainly it contains accounts of followers of a cult, referred to as a “tribe,” that Josephus didn’t hold to, much like those of the cult of Isis he discusses a section down. But further examination reveals a troubling reality. After Pilate arrives in Judea, Josephus follows with two incidents; (a) Pilate allows the Roman images into Jerusalem during the night, and (b) Pilate’s use of temple funds to build an aqueduct. Immediately following the Testimonium, (c) Josephus discusses the destruction of the temple of Isis and the crucifixion of Egyptian priests, (d) Jews are expelled from Rome because of Jewish troublemakers, and (e) Pilate destroyed the Samaritan movement and their settlement at Gerizim. Mason states that, “Like a tourist negotiating a bustling, raucous Middle-Eastern market who accidentally walks through the door of a monastery, suffused with light and peace, the reader of Josephus is struck by this sublime portrait.” (p. 227) Events (a), (b) and (e) involve incidents that look unfavorably upon Pilate, but the Testimonium blames the fiasco of the crucifixion not on Pilate—who seems more like a puppet being played—but on the “denunciation by the leading men among us.” Every single event save for the Testimonium in Antiquities 18 is described as some form of outrage or uprising, yet there is no tumultuous event here, no uprising to speak of. Overall, Mason makes the observance that “he is pointing out the follow of Jewish rebels, governors, and troublemakers,” (ibid.) yet in the Testimonium, Josephus speaks highly of Jesus and his followers, a stark contrast to the rest of the context. Finally, Josephus starts the section concerning the Isis temple as “another outrage,” for which George A. Wells[4] and others have argued both events (b) and (c) to have originally been adjacent, leaving the probability for the Testimonium to have been inserted later.[5]

Is'nt It a shame that you are grasping at the disputed or discredited work of Josephus who was never an eye witness to the alleged events of the bible to give credence to the biblical assertions and proof that Jesus existed? What a shame.

I repeat The original request was for[b] one single solitary first hand account outside the New Testament[/b]. Still waiting. Even the poorly written gospels were not first hand accounts, because all were written many years after the alleged death and resurection of Jesus.

olabowale:

Women don't clean their armpits? Have you seen a fashion model with bushy armpit before? Did any prophet keep their armpit, unshavened? Are you certain that Jesus never shaved his armpit? Are you sure that Jesus never left his beard?

Modupe; You need to clarify your armpit comment. It is uncouth and uncivilzed for a woman to be bushy there. My mother cleaned her armpit, religiously.

KarmaMod: am waiting for your response. Aji shee bi yoruba lanri. Afinju ni Yoruba o. Obun o dara, rara.

This is the funniest thing I have since. I wanted to tell her the same, a woman with hair in her armpit. . Shon gbo? Obun o dara paapa.

To Bindex and may be Kuns

One of my former neighbours one day told me that since when he was a kid he want to kill people, but it is this religion thing that is stopping because he dont want to go to hell. If people like him now meet u what will u tell him? No hell, go and enjoy ur life (and to him enjoy is to kill) because according to him he fantasise about killing people on daily basis. When he told me that I quickly gave my estate agents notice, pack and moved away from him.

bindex:

I repeat The original request was for[b] one single solitary first hand account outside the New Testament[/b]. Still waiting. Even the poorly written gospels were not first hand accounts, because all were written many years after the alleged death and resurection of Jesus.

i'll start with this . . . I have several historically accurate accounts. An interesting thing to note about these accounts are that they do NOT contradict each other even though many are written by jewish, roman and greek historians . . . all writing from different perspectives.

- the idea that there MUST be a "first hand account" is nothing but a desperate attempt to throw up a smokescreen where there is none. Very few events in ancient history actually have "first hand accounts". For example there is NO "first hand account" of the existence of the pharoahs or the building of the pyramids . . . what we have are accounts written centuries after they died . . . HOWEVER we KNOW the Pharoahs existed because we have been able to unearth their graves.

- Matthew, Mark and John were written by DISCIPLES who walked with Christ . . . the fact that they wrote their accounts 10-30 yrs after his death does not detract from the almost precise similarity in their works.

- One must take into account several factors that give us a brief window into why we dont see that many "first hand accounts" of Jesus' life from early historians.

1. Christ lived a pretty ordinary life for the first 30yrs He was on earth . . . certainly nothing worthy of a historical mention.

2. For the last 3 yrs He was an itinerant preacher, despised by the Jews, hated by the pharisees who called Him a blasphemer, regarded by many as "is this not the son of Joseph the carpenter?" and killed by the high priests . . . why would any historian be interested in penning down details of such an ordinary fellow?

It was not until the christian movement became a potent force among the gentile world that historians began to take notice.

3. We do not have "first hand accounts" of Herod, Pontius Pilate, Ceasar . . . BUT we know from archeological evidence that they existed.

[size=14pt]4. We have WAY MORE recorded history about the life of Jesus than we have of Julius Ceasar and Herod YET these hypocrites NEVER seem to question whether they existed.[/size]

So Bindex, we see thru your shenanigans . . . this sudden obsession with "first hand accounts" is not a genuine attempt to understand history but an oft used and discredited ploy to delegitimise the history of Jesus.

bindex:



I repeat The original request was for[b] one single solitary first hand account outside the New Testament[/b]. Still waiting. Even t[b]he poorly written gospels were not first hand accounts, because all were written many years after the alleged death and resurection of Jesus.
[/b]

What if the were memorizing it from generation to generation like muslims do. The fact that today u get many, hundred of thousands to millions of muslims that memorized the qur'an, it is not going to be a big deal for them to memorize the bible.

tharma:

To Bindex and may be Kuns

One of my former neighbours one day told me that since when he was a kid he want to kill people, but it is this religion thing that is stopping because he don't want to go to hell. If people like him now meet u what will u tell him? No hell, go and enjoy ur life (and to him enjoy is to kill) because according to him he fantasise about killing people on daily basis. When he told me that I quickly gave my estate agents notice, pack and moved away from him.

Reverend King believed in hell yet he still killed people in his church, George Bush believes in Hell yet about a million people are dead because of him in Iraq, Saddam Hussien believed in hell yet he commited genocide,religious fanatics the world over believe in hell but still kell people, The crusaders believed in hell yet they killed lots of people, The early catholic church believed in hell yet they killed so many people during the period of inquisition, Nigerian leaders believe in hell yet uncoutable people have died from their direct actions or inaction, do I need to continue? go and sleep i believe its past you bed time  

bindex:

Is'nt It a shame that you are grasping at the disputed or discredited work of Josephus who was never an eye witness to the alleged events of the bible to give credence to the biblical assertions and proof that Jesus existed? What a shame.

Here is the problem with this liars . . .

Testimonium Flavianum is alleged to be disputed or discredited . . . WHY? Simply because it is a potent weapon that destroys the claims that Jesus never existed since it makes prominent mention of Him.

HOWEVER

Jospephus writes ANOTHER work that is curiously NEVER disputed or discredited -  The Jewish War
This work details the war history of the Jews right up to the Roman-Jewish war of AD 70 and the destruction of the temple by Emperor Hadrian.

Now this work is UNIMPEACHABLE because there is enormous archeological evidence to support the war of AD 70 at least. It is from this war that the name "Palestine" came about.

Now isnt it incredulous that one work of Josephus is allegedly "discredited" and another is not?  

@tharma

So who told you that muslim's don't read the bible?

Bible and the Koran are essentially the same book?

Everything you find in the Koran is in the bible.

The Koran even as a chapter dedicated to the mother of Jesus (Isa) called Miriam or Mary.

and the bible mentions Jesus name more times than the name of the Prophet Muhammed.

Has the bible got a chapter dedicated to the mother of Jesus? No.

Many Muslim won't admit it, but when they are reading the Koran they are infact reading the bible to a certain extent.

bindex:


Reverend King believed in hell yet he still killed people in his church, George Bush believes in Hell yet about a million people are dead because of him in Iraq, Saddam Hussien believed in hell yet he commited genocide,religious fanatics the world over believe in hell but still kell people, The crusaders believed in hell yet they killed lots of people, The early catholic church believed in hell yet they killed so many people during the period of inquisition, Nigerian leaders believe in hell yet uncoutable people have died from their direct actions or inaction, do I need to continue? go and sleep i believe its past you bed time  

These people are devil incarnet, and we believe (hopefullY) God will purnish them for their sins. Im talking about an individual.

So if there is no God u just believe these murderers will just co scot free. No retribution. Nothing. That is all. It will be my bad luck to be born in Jos or Iraq or Afganistan, or Odi?

bindex:

Is'nt It a shame that you are grasping at the disputed or discredited work of Josephus who was never an eye witness to the alleged events of the bible to give credence to the biblical assertions and proof that Jesus existed? What a shame.

Isnt it a disgrace to make the oft discredited claim that the only people authorised to write about Jesus must be "eyewitnesses"? When we talk of Matthew, Mark and John . . . we suddenly hear another story entirely.

You believe Tutahnkhamun existed . . . were are the eyewitnesses?

you say Ceasar existed . . . where are the eyewitnesses?

Gallileo existed? . . . who was his eyewitness?

I can go on and on . . . but no need burning myself out over hypocrites.

*runs to get cold drink for uncle dafidi*

u r doing a good work,what say u,we do dinner tomorrow in one of them classy restaurant

@topic

JESUS IS LORD