komekn:


First of all because you do not know, do not presume everyone is like you.

Secondly him being stupid is your opinion not mine

[color=#000099][/color] of course everyone is not like me and I don't know all..
But stop acting as if u know all

komekn:


I did and my response is to question the claim "The JF-17 is a combat proven aircraft, all weather, state of the art aircraft with modern avionics and an advanced EW suite."

You went on further to say it has had export success with Mynamar and now Nigeria.

If you are using Myanmar as a benchmark for credibility then you are desperately clutching at straws. This aircraft is cheap unproven in any combat scenario beyond what Pakistan very questionably claims.

It is an aircraft for poor countries with limited ambition and or forward thinking.

Since its maiden flight in 2003 it has managed to sell this so called according to you state of the art aircraft, to only two gullible buyers after 17 years, Myanmar and Nigeria, Chei we have suffered.

It was derived by the from the Mig 21, which also is the F7 and according to the Chinese and Pakistanis modelled on the F16.

with Myanmar buying them for only 16 million per unit. This has been the key to the JF-17’s export success. A poor nation can field a relatively modern fighter for a very low price. It is yet to be seen whether it can actually perform at its price point in combat, but Pakistan seems to be satisfied with what the JF-17 can do in trials. In many ways, China has updated the budget fighter of the last generation, the MiG-21, for the modern era with the help and additional design cues from the F-16.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/jf-17-fighter-chinas-weird-mig-21-and-f-16-hybrid-24782

The shameless Chinese reverse engineered "Land Wind" may look like a Range Rover Evoque but is very far off the mark in all aspects, apart from just the visuals we do not judge a book by its cover.

When we say battle tested in the main the assumption is over a period of time an aircraft will be proven on multiple fronts and scenarios to be either comparable, outstanding and or exceptional. In 17 years since the its maiden flight there is NOTHING to underpin the claim of battle tested and proven.

For instance the Jaguar, F16, SU25 , f35 are battle tested proven and exceptional over many decades as outstanding performing aircraft, that is my understanding of , battle proven.

Your conjectures are quite sad to read, they show you need to read more widely.

The JF-17 is a light weight combat aircraft, in the same class as the Gripen C/D, LCA Tejas and FC-K-1 from Taiwan. These aircrafts fill their own niche in a country's fighter aircraft structure. The Gripen, JF-17 and Tejas play the same role an F-16, MIG-29 and J-10 play in larger Air Forces of The US, Russia and China. If you didn't know this, I really call into question your numerous opinions.

For a small country, Myanmar has a large Air Force, larger than that of Nigeria and South-Africa.

With regards to export sales, Rafale until very recently, Egypt purchase to be precise had no export success. From the time the JF-17 entered service with the Pakistan Air Force, they have secured 2 export sales. That's a very short time.

It would be objective for you to tell us what part of the MIG-21 is in the JF-17. Is it the avionics, the wing design, the power plant, is the JF-17 a Delta designed aircraft what areas. Give us the information.


Like I said previously, the JF-17 was part of the strike package that bombed India, they flew combat air patrols against Indian aircrafts, have been used numerously in ground attack roles and has a confirmed drone kill. See picture attached.

The F-35 is battle tested over how many years, and against what types of aircrafts?

Texman21:
u know that u can buy a f-16 or one of ur dream jets and donate it to the airforce.



One thing I noticed some people hate Jf-17 because it is cheap and China has a hand in it.

You know the funny thing, it's not that cheap. It cost us $180 million, plus ammunition and training.

This means each plane cost between 40 and 45 million dollars.

kabe1:


You know the funny thing, it's not that cheap. It cost us $180 million, plus ammunition and training.

This means each plane cost between 40 and 45 million dollars.

I mean by their definition of cheap.

Komekn 20 typhoons and f-16s will be appreciated.

Texman21:
I mean by their definition of cheap.

Komekn 20 typhoons and f-16s will be appreciated.

Lol.

Texman21:
u know that u can buy a f-16 or one of ur dream jets and donate it to the airforce.



One thing I noticed some people hate Jf-17 because it is cheap and China has a hand in it.

Honestly America will sell the F16 but forget about the long range missiles/BVR.
over 200 jets in service - which form the backbone of the country’s aerial warfare capabilities today alongside the Soviet era MiG-21. While Egypt was restricted to buying second grade fighter jets from the United States, further restrictions were notably later imposed by Washington on the country’s F-16 fleet which would put it at a considerable disadvantage to other combat aircraft in the region. As beyond visual range combat became increasingly important, and the United States moved from the early 1990s to revolutionise the capabilities of its fourth generation combat aircraft and those of several of its leading allies by equipping them with AIM-120B air to air missiles - platforms with a 75km engagement range - Egypt was notably unable to acquire these missiles for its own Fighting Falcons. With the F-16 and F-15 fighters of a number of first and second grade U.S. weapons clients, from Israel, Saudi Arabia, South Korea and Japan to Poland and Singapore all further evolving to field the AIM-120C - a formidable platform with a 105km range, Egypt was unable to acquire even the older version of the missile.
So what’s the essence of acquiring such platforms without giving them the appropriate capabilities. The jf17 is very good jet considering the lower cost of maintenance and how deadly it is. In the nearest feature I believe the NAF will go for power/air projection like the MiG 29/35 and the SU 30/35.

kabe1:


You know the funny thing, it's not that cheap. It cost us $180 million, plus ammunition and training.

This means each plane cost between 40 and 45 million dollars.

Honestly it’s not cheap at all, have not even tried to check the price online before. Probably because the air force authorities paid in tranches.

The lockdown is stretching too long

Anyways out of curiosity , the payment for the mushshak was part of the same deal or different ?

bidexiii:



Honestly America will sell the F16 but forget about the long range missiles/BVR.
over 200 jets in service - which form the backbone of the country’s aerial warfare capabilities today alongside the Soviet era MiG-21. While Egypt was restricted to buying second grade fighter jets from the United States, further restrictions were notably later imposed by Washington on the country’s F-16 fleet which would put it at a considerable disadvantage to other combat aircraft in the region. As beyond visual range combat became increasingly important, and the United States moved from the early 1990s to revolutionise the capabilities of its fourth generation combat aircraft and those of several of its leading allies by equipping them with AIM-120B air to air missiles - platforms with a 75km engagement range - Egypt was notably unable to acquire these missiles for its own Fighting Falcons. With the F-16 and F-15 fighters of a number of first and second grade U.S. weapons clients, from Israel, Saudi Arabia, South Korea and Japan to Poland and Singapore all further evolving to field the AIM-120C - a formidable platform with a 105km range, Egypt was unable to acquire even the older version of the missile.
So what’s the essence of acquiring such platforms without giving them the appropriate capabilities. The jf17 is very good jet considering the lower cost of maintenance and how deadly it is. In the nearest feature I believe the NAF will go for power/air projection like the MiG 29/35 and the SU 30/35.

they will never give you the complete package.just imagine giving Pakistan f-16s without radar during the soviet invasion hehehe

nemesis8u:
The lockdown is stretching too long

Anyways out of curiosity , the payment for the mushshak was part of the same deal or different ?

Different

komekn:


No 1- Your old post didn't get missing. I suspect someone asked a mod to delete it. On what basis that seems very devious and not in the spirit of how things should be done.

No.2 that is semantics to the US a terrorist assassinated to the Iranians HERO murdered.

No.3 Strafing hmmmm there are some things better seen than explained. Straffing is much more effective in open spaces against enemy vehicles and fixed isolated targets. Fighter jets were better equipped because of the greater speed but even with that you are exposed to enemy AA fire. A much slower noisy turboprop A29 on a straffing run would be at a very great disadvantage to AA gunfire.

In a setting of close proximity between friendly and enemy troops its near impossible to distinguish between friend and foe. Quite recently when 4 US combatants were killed in Niger by Islamist terrorists. The called in air support and within 15 minutes Mirage Fighter jets were on the scene but could only do low flying dives without fire for fear of taking out friendlies.

So aircraft as close support to ground forces has limitations, however, using precision weaponry when ground targets can be laser painted a big yes. But that can be done at 10000ft and a lot more. So strafing is near obsolete in today's modern warfare and more so in COIN with friendly forces in close proximity. An apache, MIL24, etc in this scenario would be the best option not an A29.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy9VPTWyLh0



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wberKPnrWzg

No 1: not a new thing. It regularly happens on Nairaland. The powerful use it to push their own narrative and conceal their mistakes. Ask around.

No 2: you will pardon me, but I don't believe someone is a terrorist just because the arrogantly double faced and utterly criminal great Satan says so.

No 3: ISWAP and Boko Haram makes heavy use of gun trucks. These are the kind of things straffing can eliminate. However, the problem is that the Tucano only has .50 cal machine guns. To straff, it must come close to a distance when enemy AA can hit it.
More, most battles here are fought in open spaces, with no houses or structure in the distance. However, ISWAP often makes use of army vehicles and uniforms. So, I can see how it might be difficult for the Tucano pilots to differentiate friend from foe, more so as they are very unlikely to be in direct contact with the troops on the ground.
Anyway, let's agree to disagree.

kabe1:

Can you post a link from the Pak..... Defence saying they shot down Ind... MIG-21 with a JF-17.

Question is many links do you want ?

LTGEN:

Different

Ok

TROOPS OF OPERATION DELTA SAFE RESCUE KIDNAPPED VICTIMS, UNCOVER ILLEGAL REFINERIES, RECOVER ARMS AND STOLEN CRUDE OIL

1. Troops of Sector 2 while on routine patrol at Nembe Owelesu, Bayelsa State encountered sea robbers at Abuja Open Water-Nembe. The Sea robbers on sighting the troop's gunboats escaped into the creeks. However, troops rescued 15 persons held hostage in 5 speed boats by the hoodlooms.

2. Similarly, on 23 April 2020, acting on a tip off, Nigerian Navy Ship PATHFINDER patrol team intercepted and arrested 3 Barges (MV Rock 1, JULIANAH and an unnamed barge) laden with illegally refined Automotive Gas Oil (AGO) at AGIP waterfront for suspected involvement in illegal bunkering activities. The Team also arrested another barge laden with suspected stolen crude oil around Okochiri River entrance.

3. Also, troops of Sector 3, Operation DFLTA SAFE conducted raid on four Illegal refining sites along Dema Abby - Oputumbi - Nanabie - Promise Land - Otobie and Ogono general area. Items discovered and appropriately handled, include 7 boilers, 9 storage tanks, 8 metal tanks, 1 dugout reservoir all filled with stolen crude oil, 8 metal tanks, 18 metal drums, 11 reservoir tanks filled with illegally refined AGO and Dual Purpose Kerosene (DPK). Also, 2 empty Cotonou boats, 1 generator set, 1 pumping machine, 2 welding machines, 1 filing machine, rolls of hose, and 1 speedboat mounted with 75 HP engine (use for illegal bunkering activities) were also discovered within the sites.

4. Additionally, troops of Sector 3 on patrol intercepted a barge laden with suspected illegally refined AGO around Orutoru general area of Rivers State. Relatedly, on 25 April 2020, following intelligence report, troops of Headquarters Operation DELTA SAFE discovered and appropriately handled an Illegal refining site at Uzere community at Ughelli North LGA of Delta State. Additionally, on 23 April 2020, troops of Sector 2 Operation DELTA SAFE deployed along KCTL pipeline at Odau Community in Abua/Odual LGA of Rivers State arrested 3 suspected pipeline vandals around Shell Petroleum Development Company pipeline.

5. Overall, a total of 3 weapons were recovered, 48 illegal refineries, 28 surface metal storage tanks, 60 cooking ovens and 18 Cotonou boats amongst others were discovered while about 58,500 liters of
DPK, 11, 750 liters of PMS, 855,900 liters of AGO and an estimated 1, 507,000 liters of crude oil were seized by troops.

6. All rescued victims, recovered items and arrested suspects are to be handed over to the appropriate authorities at the end of preliminary investigation.

7. The general public is hereby requested to continue to give credible information which will assist the military to rid the country of economic saboteurs.

You are please requested to disseminate this information through your medium for the awareness of the general public. Thank you for your usual support and cooperation.

JOHN ENENCHE
Major General
Coordinator
Defence Media Operations
Defence Headquarters
28 April 20

nemesis8u:


Question is many links do you want ?

Post them let's make the deduction ourselves.

Please post credible & reliable sources like Jane's defence etc not Indian links.

More...

Destroying these barges like this will further lead to degradation of the environment.

kabe1:


Your conjectures are quite sad to read, they show you need to read more widely.

The JF-17 is a light weight combat aircraft, in the same class as the Gripen C/D, LCA Tejas and FC-K-1 from Taiwan. These aircrafts fill their own niche in a country's fighter aircraft structure. The Gripen, JF-17 and Tejas play the same role an F-16, MIG-29 and J-10 play in larger Air Forces of The US, Russia and China. If you didn't know this, I really call into question your numerous opinions.

For a small country, Myanmar has a large Air Force, larger than that of Nigeria and South-Africa.

With regards to export sales, Rafale until very recently, Egypt purchase to be precise had no export success. From the time the JF-17 entered service with the Pakistan Air Force, they have secured 2 export sales. That's a very short time.

It would be objective for you to tell us what part of the MIG-21 is in the JF-17. Is it the avionics, the wing design, the power plant, is the JF-17 a Delta designed aircraft what areas. Give us the information.


Like I said previously, the JF-17 was part of the strike package that bombed India, they flew combat air patrols against Indian aircrafts, have been used numerously in ground attack roles and has a confirmed drone kill. See picture attached.

The F-35 is battle tested over how many years, and against what types of aircrafts?

Are you actually comparing the Dassault Rafale and JSF with a JF-17? Bro, that's some very serious disrespect right there. It's like comparing a Volkswagen Beetle with a Rolls Royce Ghost.

Let's be honest here, the only good thing about the JF-17 is its price, which is very attractive in comparison to the expected performance. And Pakistan has not offered up any conclusive evidence that the plane went on combat sorties against India. Links to same would be appreciated.
As for the Rafael having few export sales, my friend it's like you are being disingenuous. There are many reasons for that, like cost and competing aircraft, but it is currently operated by 4 countries.

nemesis8u:


Question is many links do you want ?

Corroborated links? All I see is Pakistan claiming they did something, but most of the world don't seem to agree. It's either there's a gangup or Pakistan is lying through it's teeth.
I'm inclined to believe the latter scenario.

Instead of reading poorly informed opinions of random people who have not seen fighter jets up close, Here are pages from Air Forces Intel magazine on the combat capability of the JF-17 which was part of the strike package that bombed India.

So today, the Pentagon finally confirmed the existence of UFOs.

It seems some people find it difficult thinking in this thread.

If you say aircraft A is not combat tested despite striking a nuclear power (India), and carrying out combat patrols, why is the F-35 combat approved despite only been used to bomb terrorists.

If you claim that aircraft A has not had export success despite selling to 2 countries, how about aircraft B which had to wait 18 years before a sale to Egypt.

It's basic common sense, these comparisons are meant to look at similar instances in aircrafts, not to judge fighters 'like for like' per say.

Please before quoting me, apply common sense.

komekn:



It is an aircraft for poor countries with limited ambition and or forward thinking.

Is Nigeria not a poor country?

kabe1:


Your conjectures are quite sad to read, they show you need to read more widely.

The JF-17 is a light weight combat aircraft, in the same class as the Gripen C/D, LCA Tejas and FC-K-1 from Taiwan. These aircrafts fill their own niche in a country's fighter aircraft structure. The Gripen, JF-17 and Tejas play the same role an F-16, MIG-29 and J-10 play in larger Air Forces of The US, Russia and China. If you didn't know this, I really call into question your numerous opinions.

For a small country, Myanmar has a large Air Force, larger than that of Nigeria and South-Africa.

With regards to export sales, Rafale until very recently, Egypt purchase to be precise had no export success. From the time the JF-17 entered service with the Pakistan Air Force, they have secured 2 export sales. That's a very short time.

It would be objective for you to tell us what part of the MIG-21 is in the JF-17. Is it the avionics, the wing design, the power plant, is the JF-17 a Delta designed aircraft what areas. Give us the information.


Like I said previously, the JF-17 was part of the strike package that bombed India, they flew combat air patrols against Indian aircrafts, have been used numerously in ground attack roles and has a confirmed drone kill. See picture attached.

The F-35 is battle tested over how many years, and against what types of aircrafts?

One potential weakness of the JF-17 is its internal cannon, which is still the double-barrel GSh-23, a legacy of its MiG-21 heritage. This cannon is outperformed by practically any other autocannon mounted on a modern combat aircraft. However, given the relative infrequency of cannon usage in modern air combat, this is not a big issue.

Being in the same class (debatable) does not equate to same quality and capability of proven and established quality air craft like the F35, F16, Typhoon, etc

With regards to the F35 in use by Isreal , NATO and other US allies, find out yourself.

kabe1:
Instead of reading poorly informed opinions of random people who have not seen fighter jets up close, Here are pages from Air Forces Intel magazine on the combat capability of the JF-17 which was part of the strike package that bombed India.

Is the author of the article dear old alan warnes ?

Unrelated
Incase u didn't know one can hire authors / magazines for pennies .

In this big world , the big question is , which story suits u . We all r captives of our own needs .

GabrielYulaw:


No 1: not a new thing. It regularly happens on Nairaland. The powerful use it to push their own narrative and conceal their mistakes. Ask around.

No 2: you will pardon me, but I don't believe someone is a terrorist just because the arrogantly double faced and utterly criminal great Satan says so.

No 3: ISWAP and Boko Haram makes heavy use of gun trucks. These are the kind of things straffing can eliminate. However, the problem is that the Tucano only has .50 cal machine guns. To straff, it must come close to a distance when enemy AA can hit it.
More, most battles here are fought in open spaces, with no houses or structure in the distance. However, ISWAP often makes use of army vehicles and uniforms. So, I can see how it might be difficult for the Tucano pilots to differentiate friend from foe, more so as they are very unlikely to be in direct contact with the troops on the ground.
Anyway, let's agree to disagree.

There is nothing to agree or disagree.

The terrain of the NE is quite diverse there are parts covered with thick shrubs as is normal in the Savannah and if you are talking Sambisa then its almost impossible for wide open spaces to be found and parts that are wide open but it varies.

But do you really need air assets in that environment with wide open spaces or definitive IFV's with RWS, LAV's, etc in good numbers to chase down Boko in search and destroy. Boko are not heavy weaponised they have rickety gun trucks with HMG's and RPG's this is a mission for properly equipped ground troops.

This $600 million package we paid for something with very limited use considering the multiple far better alternatives is huge waste of money IMO and will have limited capacity.

Niger has the A29 what difference has it made for them Quite disturbing is Ghana has bought them A29's but paid considerably less than us why eeee get as be.

https://twitter.com/JohnFanimokun/status/1255070601833779200?s=20 as artillery strikes continues on BHT

komekn:


There is nothing to agree or disagree.

The terrain of the NE is quite diverse there are parts covered with thick shrubs as is normal in the Savannah and if you are talking Sambisa then its almost impossible for wide open spaces to be found and parts that are wide open but it varies.

But do you really need air assets in that environment with wide open spaces or definitive IFV's with RWS, LAV's, etc in good numbers to chase down Boko in search and destroy.

This $600 million package we paid for something with very limited use considering the multiple far better alternatives is huge waste of money IMO and will have limited capacity.

Niger has the A29 what difference has it made for them Quite disturbing is Ghana has bought them A29's but paid considerably less than us why eeee get as be.

We didn't pay 600mil for the Tucano and secondly Our neighbors hardly carry out Airstrikes against BHT so you can judge the Tucano using Niger as an example.Take Afghanistan as an example bro.

If Ghana paid less for tucano so what it isn't the same package we're receiving with them don't u get...
We're talking about The APWK or whatever it's called.. First of it's kind in the region and possibly Africa

komekn:


One potential weakness of the JF-17 is its internal cannon, which is still the double-barrel GSh-23, a legacy of its MiG-21 heritage. This cannon is outperformed by practically any other autocannon mounted on a modern combat aircraft. However, given the relative infrequency of cannon usage in modern air combat, this is not a big issue.

Being in the same class (debatable) does not equate to same quality and capability of proven and established quality air craft like the F35, F16, Typhoon, etc

With regards to the F35 in use by Isreal , NATO and other US allies, find out yourself.

We'll have to let this go.

nemesis8u:


Is the author of the article dear old alan warnes ?

Unrelated
Incase u didn't know one can hire authors / magazines for pennies .

In this big world , the big question is , which story suits u . We all r captives of ur own needs .

Man, you have an obvious bias towards India, as an Indian as such, it would be irrelevant having this discussion with you.

Toju200:
why do always feel u know best...
I know now you'll say it just your opinion but sorry to break it to you bro...
It's a stupid one...
You're always complaining over everything.
So the commanders that insisted on the artillery firing is stupid abi

Toju, that's his nature
I'd be surprised he doesn't very soon add "UK experience" to it

komekn:


One potential weakness of the JF-17 is its internal cannon, which is still the double-barrel GSh-23, a legacy of its MiG-21 heritage. This cannon is outperformed by practically any other autocannon mounted on a modern combat aircraft. However, given the relative infrequency of cannon usage in modern air combat, this is not a big issue.

Being in the same class (debatable) does not equate to same quality and capability of proven and established quality air craft like the F35, F16, Typhoon, etc

With regards to the F35 in use by Isreal , NATO and other US allies, find out yourself.

So all you could bring out in relation of your Mig21 and JF17 relation is the cannon?

But if we use your logic of the JF17 being used to bomb terrorists alone makes it weak, the F35 is in peril of being judged same way