What was the aim of this thread?

bindex:

You have been bleating about the non existing Allah for years on nairaland haven't you? I guess that makes the two of us troubled souls we are?

rofl

In my first post on this thread, I touched on a number of issues that could be blamed for the sad state of African development and the lack of intellectualism.

The lack of intellectualism in the African community is really one of the greatest thread to African development. Africa suffers from many aflictions such as poverty, bad governance, poor education and most of all an abject disengagement from intellectual life. Today, this disengagement from intellectualism is made more poignant by rampant spread of irrationalism promoted by the likes of the christian evangelical movements, the traditional African instititions, the quests for unrestrained wealth, etc, etc.

Some of the advocates of religion have ignored the other issues and decided to capitalise on my fingering religion as the main culprit. By the looks of the response thus far, I must have touched a really sore nerve with the religionists. And rightly so, I might add.

ALL religions come under the umbrella definition of superstitious irrationalism, SI. Now, ALL forms of SI are opposed to rationalism and reason. Scientific and humanistic progress are the products of reason and rationalism. Thus it could be argued that SI are opposed to human progress. Progress is what elevates and enlighten the mind, quite apart from providing food, electricity, books, computers, medicines, etc, etc. It also frees the mind from the stranglehold of SI.

Now, think for a minute about what the religionist since the time of Galileo have been up to with respect to human progress. There has not been a single medical inovation that has not been opposed by the religionists:

The use of anaesthetic for surgery,
Birth control
Organ transplant
Use of animal tissue
Stem cell research
Blood transfusion
The use of cadavre in medical schools
etc
etc
etc

Every single one of the above has been opposed by the religionists on religious grounds. Does this sound like we are dealing with rational reasonable and intellectual people? In fact, you do not have to go back that far in time to encounter religious meddling in human progress. It is happening right now in you local district schools, colleges, hospitals.

The religious are trying to infiltrate the teaching of their superstitious non-sense in science classroom all over America and many other parts of the world.

Can anyone thing of any single product of SI that has brought tangible benefits to humankind?

SI is the stuff of the Dark Ages, but unfortunately Africans seem to be particularly wedded to it and it is dragging the continent down.

So far, we have not really defined what we mean by intellectualism. I shall address this question in my next post, but if anyone has an idea, you are welcome to contribute it.

I shall end here by asking our religionists friend (notably Davidylan) the following questions, as a lead-in to the questions of what intelelctualism is.



1) The age of the earth is a question that was troubled the minds of many thinking humans. What is the currently accepted figure about the age of the earth

2) Upon observing nature, you realise that there are NO native placental mammals indegenious to Australia. How would you go about explaining this anormally?

Not worth commenting on, this thread has no vision and is going to lead to vanity.

honeric01:

Not worth commenting on, this thread has no vision and is going to lead to vanity.

Looks like this is a religion infected mind (sorry, not mind but brain).

huxley i think you have no right to attack people for their believe, if they believe in christainity thats their reality, if they believe in islam thats their reality, if in science like you?, well that your reality. and every believe can expalin what they believe in, rationally to ardent of the believe. so if you ask anyone who believe in creationism why kangaroos are only found in aussy land, he will simply tell you it was creation and he explain too. if you ask a scientist he tell you it was evolution and explain using scientific language and both are logically based views in themselves but not totally to each other.

@Huxley and co,

sorry I've been MIA on this thread since my last posting.  I've been rather busy.

I thought the best way to r4espond to you guys right now is by way of an example.  What more country can we declare as more fundamentally religious than Iran today? Yet the same country just sent a communication satellite to space, they are building their air planes and long range missiles.  Cases like this merely tells you that religion is not the problem.

I hope to come back and establish some more points.

huxley:

Looks like this is a religion infected mind (sorry, not mind but brain).

People like you have no respect for others and prefer being a dictator, must you decide what i say for me?

2 say d truth! Am tired of all dis peeps who do notin but whine all day long about africa's state of health.

Itz time we looked inwards for the solutions

Agh!! The US versus THEM religious debates !!!

On the left, we have the science Religion, and on the right, we have every other recognised religion out there !! WOOHOO!!

@Seun, do move this to religion as we have enough US vs THEM issues to deal with in politics. lol

Tayo-D:

@Huxley and co,

sorry I've been MIA on this thread since my last posting. I've been rather busy.

I thought the best way to r4espond to you guys right now is by way of an example. What more country can we declare as more fundamentally religious than Iran today? Yet the same country just sent a communication satellite to space, they are building their air planes and long range missiles. Cases like this merely tells you that religion is not the problem.

I hope to come back and establish some more points.

dont expect a response from those demented folks. If they could blame religion for global warming they would.

Africa puts you to shame? and you people put me to shame in Nairaland with all these religious nonsense!!

Romeo you have put me to shame with this you antiquated name

Tayo-D:

@Huxley and co,

sorry I've been MIA on this thread since my last posting.  I've been rather busy.

I thought the best way to r4espond to you guys right now is by way of an example.  What more country can we declare as more fundamentally religious than Iran today? Yet the same country just sent a communication satellite to space, they are building their air planes and long range missiles.  Cases like this merely tells you that religion is not the problem.

I hope to come back and establish some more points.

To say that Iran's fundamentally religious views are not responsible for its building of its long range missles, air planes and nuclear arsernal is to not know what you are talking about. Iran is trying to be a regional force based purely on Religion( the Shia and Sunni divide) Iran will pursue anything that will make it a regional influence because of its extremist religious position. If technology will help it attain that goal then it will actively pursue it. Religion plays a very large part as to why Iran has defied international pressure over its nuclear programme. Its religious view is responsible for its funding of terrorism.

davidylan:

dont expect a response from those demented folks. If they could blame religion for global warming they would.

When will this fool ever get sense? You have uncountable post here on NL blaming Islam( other people's religion) and northern Nigerians Moslems for most of Nigeria' problems, but when people blame Religion(with yours included) as a whole you come around talking like a headless chicken. Its right to blame Islam for all of Nigeria's problem but not Christainity according to davidyalan? do you ever sit down to reason with your brains at all or must you always reason with the pages of the bible? Idiot.

bindex:

To say that Iran's fundamentally religious views are not responsible for its building of it long range missles, air planes and nuclear arsernal is to not know what you are talking about. Iran is trying to be a regional force based purely on Religion( the Shia and Sunni divide) Iran will pursue any things that will make it a regional influence because of it extremist religious position. If technology will help it attain that goal then it will actively pursue it. Religion play a very large part as to why Iran has defied international pressure over its nuclear programme. Its religious view is responsible for its funding of terrorism.

Please stop spreading lies! Iran is a peaceful nation! They've never invaded any nation - and please don't confuse the Persian empire with the Islamic Republic of Iran - we don't need a historical debate on this. They support Hamas because Hamas is doing what any of us will do in similar situation - fight the oppressors occupying your lands. The ANC fought against oppression in South Africa, the colonists fought against the "red-coat' English to stop England's oppression in North America. Why is it when Hamas is standing firm to fight against the oppressors in Tel-Aviv then you shout "terrorists"?

You have no proof that Iran funds terrorism and you only write that because you're biased against the truth. Western media has succeeded in putting Iran in the most evil light and it is unfortunate that people who should know better simply regurgitate this odious Western view of one of the most peaceful nations in the world.

Tayo-D:

@Huxley and co,

sorry I've been MIA on this thread since my last posting.  I've been rather busy.

I thought the best way to r4espond to you guys right now is by way of an example.  What more country can we declare as more fundamentally religious than Iran today? Yet the same country just sent a communication satellite to space, they are building their air planes and long range missiles.  Cases like this merely tells you that religion is not the problem.

I hope to come back and establish some more points.

This is really infantile thinking, the product of irrationalism, itself the product of religious infestation of the mind.

Just think about it.   What would have been the chances of Iran (and any country for that matter) getting a satellite into space if they had relied on the geocentric view of the world promoted by the religionists?

Copernicus and Galileo suffered persecution for propounding that the sun (not the earth) was the centre of our "world". The religionist preferred view was geocentrism which had held sway until Galileo and Copernicus.  And what did the get for this truly liberating idea?   Nothing but persecution from the likes of you.   And you have the impudence to celebrate this achievement of the Iranians as prove that religion does not impact of development.

THIS DEVELOPMENT WAS ACHIEVED IN SPITE OF THE INTRUSION AND MEDDLING OF THE RELIGIONISTS.


And so have been many other scientific innovations.  Shall I list them ?

bindex:

You have been bleating about the non existing Allah for years on nairaland haven't you? I guess that makes the two of us troubled souls we are?

WORLD CLASS STATEMENT!!!!!!

What more country can we declare as more fundamentally religious than Iran today? Yet the same country just sent a communication satellite to space, they are building their air planes and long range missiles.  Cases like this merely tells you that religion is not the problem.

Iran is a pretty closed society with a poor development index. This is a country that depends on Russian technicians to develop it's refineries. Would we consider North Korea developed too.  I mean North korea has long range missiles and nuclear reactors so does that make it a developed country.  It can be argued the rate of development by secular countries is higher than the rate of development by religious ones.  An example of religious interference is the issue of stem-cell research among conservative Christians.

davidylan - do you get a thrill from calling people names.

Please stop spreading lies! Iran is a peaceful nation! They've never invaded any nation - and please don't confuse the Persian empire with the Islamic Republic of Iran

So is the actions of the Ottoman empire independent from turkey?

superboi:

huxley i think you have no right to attack people for their believe, if they believe in christainity thats their reality, if they believe in islam thats their reality, if in science like you?, well that your reality. and every believe can expalin what they believe in, rationally to ardent of the believe. so if you ask anyone who believe in creationism why kangaroos are only found in aussy land, he will simply tell you it was creation and he explain too. if you ask a scientist he tell you it was evolution and explain using scientific language and both are logically based views in themselves but not totally to each other.

People have the right to have any ideas they care to have, however silly, nonsensical or brilliant. But ideas cannot be shielded from criticisms in the market place of ideas. Beliefs about gods and deities are but just ideas and are therefore not immune from the criticisms all ideas are subject to.

Can you give me reasons why ideas (including beliefs in gods) should be shielded from criticism?

youngies:

Romeo you have put me to shame with this you antiquated name

Agadi ekwe nka!! You're putting me to shame with that "Youngies" , Ur age mates are already counting their grey hair.

@bawomolo,

Iran is a pretty closed society with a poor development index. This is a country that depends on Russian technicians to develop it's refineries. Would we consider North Korea developed too. I mean North korea has long range missiles and nuclear reactors so does that make it a developed country. It can be argued the rate of development by secular countries is higher than the rate of development by religious ones. An example of religious interference is the issue of stem-cell research among conservative Christians.

You have touched on a point hitherto ignored on this thread. What makes a society developed goes beyond science and technology which has been the primary focus thus far. A society's development encompasses its social structure and the Western society we largely describe as developed established their structure through and from their christian heritage.

The fact that Iran lacks skills in some areas does not nullify the technological breakthrough their recent achievements testify to. My contribution was just to show these folks how stupid their logic is. Iran is as religious as they come and yet have achieved what many secular states are yet to achieve technologically. So religion really needs to be set aside as the major reason why a society isn't developed technologically.

@Huxley,

This is really infantile thinking, the product of irrationalism, itself the product of religious infestation of the mind.

How stupid your conclusion. Can you tell us what religious doctrine my contribution was based on?

Just think about it. What would have been the chances of Iran (and any country for that matter) getting a satellite into space if they had relied on the geocentric view of the world promoted by the religionists?

You sure have a very myopic understandig of what religion is (christianity to be precise), otherwsie you wont make such an uninformed statement. I'm a Christians who understand big time that my faith necessarily places aa burden on me to do everything that is ethically right to make this world a better place. The goal of technology and religion are the same - service to humanity.

Copernicus and Galileo suffered persecution for propounding that the sun (not the earth) was the centre of our "world". The religionist preferred view was geocentrism which had held sway until Galileo and Copernicus. And what did the get for this truly liberating idea? Nothing but persecution from the likes of you. And you have the impudence to celebrate this achievement of the Iranians as prove that religion does not impact of development.

You talk as if these people received their marching orders from the Bible. They are people with a natural inclination to oppose anything they do not understand and used the Bible as justification for their actions. The same Bible which declares that wisdom gives insight into witty inventions cannot and has never opposed knowledge. If anything it declares that people are destoyed for lack of it. Insight, development and progress are concepts the Bible clearly teaches and advances.

THIS DEVELOPMENT WAS ACHIEVED IN SPITE OF THE INTRUSION AND MEDDLING OF THE RELIGIONISTS.

In order words, development and religion are not mutuially exclusive.

And so have been many other scientific innovations. Shall I list them ?

And you might want to tell us the religion of each of these scientists as you list their inventions.

religion stopped nigeria/africa from advancing? . . . . i don die

huxley:

Just think about it.   What would have been the chances of Iran (and any country for that matter) getting a satellite into space if they had relied on the geocentric view of the world promoted by the religionists?

Iran is ruled by a grand Ayatollah . . . what a slowpoke this guy is. 
A'jad believes in the reincarnation of the 12th Mahddi.

Yeah Bawomolo . . . i get a thrill from sticking it to those who deserve it.  Sorry.

Tayo-D:

@Huxley,
How stupid your conclusion.  Can you tell us what religious doctrine my contribution was based on?
You sure have a very myopic understandig of what religion is (christianity to be precise), otherwsie you wont make such an uninformed statement.  I'm a Christians who understand big time that my faith necessarily places aa burden on me to do everything that is ethically right to make this world a better place.  The goal of technology and religion are the same - service to humanity.
You talk as if these people received their marching orders from the Bible.  They are people with a natural inclination to oppose anything they do not understand and used the Bible as justification for their actions. The same Bible which declares that wisdom gives insight into witty inventions cannot and has never opposed knowledge. If anything it declares that people are destoyed for lack of it. Insight, development and progress are concepts the Bible clearly teaches and advances.
In order words, development and religion are not mutuially exclusive.
And you might want to tell us the religion of each of these scientists as you list their inventions.

You think the bible is very pro-knowledge and pro-wisdom?  How do you explain these verses?


Genesis, 2: 17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it

I Corinthians, 3: 19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God


Colossians, 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy



1 Corinthian 1
18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Here is a Christian, Martin Luther, acting on what he had learnt from the bible
Reason should be destroyed in all Christians.  - Martin Luther


Did the bible provide any useful knowledge about how to develop and progress a society?   Did it say anything about medicine, agriculture, human rights,  geology, transpost, etc, etc.   In fact, what it does say about the nature of reality is downright wrong and dangerous, as in:

1)   It says PI = 3

2)   It gives a weird model of breading animals

3)  It says the bat is a bird

4)  It says rabbits chew the cud

5)  On law, it says we can punish the innocent for the crimes or sins of the quilty.

6)  It implies the earth is flat

7)  It implies the world is about 6000 years old.


Which of the above do you accept as biblical truth  and do you think they correlate with present day knowledge about the state of reality?


The Christian who oppose and persecuted Copernicus and Galileo got their inspiration from the bible.  Why?  

Because, the heliocentric worldview they were promoted was at odds with the view that humans and the earth was the sole and main raison-d'etre for god's creation.  Any other view would have marginalised man's importance.  The same reason lies at the heart of the opposition to the Theory of Evolution.


Where do you think the witch-hunters got their inspiration?  Let me help you out:

Exodus 22:18 (King James Version)

18Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.


This one verse was probably responsible for the death of millions of people in Christian Europe and America.   It is sad to say that it is still happening across Africa today, thanks to the religious mindset of the people.



I did ask some questions earlier, which have been tactfully ignored by you and your ilk.  Let me re-state them here again;

1)    What is the current accepted view about the age of the earth?

2)    How would one account for the fact that there are no placental mammals native to Australia?

These two questions are important features about the world that need an explanation.  Where would you suggest one goes to seeks answers to such questions?

huxley:

You think the bible is very pro-knowledge and pro-wisdom? How do you explain these verses?

Unfortunately that is not the essence of this thread. It seems to be the last resort for you people each time you run into brickwalls. This topic was squarely about Africa and why it is not developmentally on par with others. What has it to do with religion or what the bible says about wisdom?

If the bible was anti-wisdom then why are those who brought the bible to us much wiser than us? Where we any wiser without the bible 500yrs ago?

Here's an interesting little word,  Tolerance.

Tolerance, while not solely responsible for Western Progress, is certainly a major factor. The United States was founded on some moral Christian grounds, and still in some ways is a very Christian nation but I, as an American, can tell you we never would have succeeded as a nation had we not learned, albeit slowly, that we need to ignore our differences. To me this is a key issue in most developing nations. People just aren't willing to work together. It shows brilliantly in this thread, that no one is willing to criticize themselves or compromise for a solution.

European Nations NEVER gave up religion entirely, they just accepted that it needed to take a back seat to scientific progress. Countries like England, Germany, Japan, and the United States are still VERY religious, particularly in more conservative groups, but after years of religious rule and chaos, the people of these countries realized that the time for government by deity is over.

Never ask someone to give up religion, and insulting someone's culture and beliefs will not get you anywhere.  Religion is a precious thing, and the scientific types usually accept that. It's important that we never forget to respect what one another think and feel, and keep our minds open to new ideas.

As a point to add into the argument here though, the US has been greatly stunted in it's success for quite a while now due to the religious types. Many new technologies have to pass because people simply don't see why change is necessary, and rely too much on their beliefs, attempting to force them upon everyone else,

A few quotes on tolerance:

"The price of the democratic way of life is a growing appreciation of people's differences, not merely as tolerable, but as the essence of a rich and rewarding human experience." - Jerome Nathanson

"It is the duty of every cultured man or woman to read sympathetically the scriptures of the world. If we are to respect others' religions as we would have them respect our own, a friendly study of the world's religions is a sacred duty." - Mohondas K. Ghandi

"Ultimately, America's answer to the intolerant man is diversity, the very diversity which our heritage of religious freedom has inspired." - Robert F. Kennedy

"Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too." - Voltaire

"Monsieur l'abbe, I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write." - Voltaire

and my personal favorites:

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle

"Tolerance implies no lack of commitment to one's own beliefs. Rather it condemns the oppression or persecution of others." - John F. Kennedy

One fact is certain, the people arguing here desire further development of African nations. Yet it seems that neither science, nor religion, but human nature provides an answer to your problem. If you could just stop pointing fingers and arguing about world history you might actually be productive.

Vanity

hahaha

Captain America/Founding Father is now Ashamed of Africa

o kare o!

all these attention-seeking little kids have returned eh?

**osisi:

the guy is a troubled soul
rejected even by allah and his jinns
The only thing left to do is for him to audition to serve kolanuts at Okija
that's if the oracles would consider him a worthy sacrifice

Classic example of intellectual deficiency

Has Mr. Tayo-D abandoned this thread? I thought he said he was going to come back and answer the questions I asked him. Here they are below:

huxley:


You think the bible is very pro-knowledge and pro-wisdom?  How do you explain these verses?


Genesis, 2: 17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it

I Corinthians, 3: 19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God


Colossians, 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy



1 Corinthian 1
18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

Here is a Christian, Martin Luther, acting on what he had learnt from the bible
Reason should be destroyed in all Christians.  - Martin Luther


Did the bible provide any useful knowledge about how to develop and progress a society?   Did it say anything about medicine, agriculture, human rights,  geology, transpost, etc, etc.   In fact, what it does say about the nature of reality is downright wrong and dangerous, as in:

1)   It says PI = 3

2)   It gives a weird model of breading animals

3)  It says the bat is a bird

4)  It says rabbits chew the cud

5)  On law, it says we can punish the innocent for the crimes or sins of the quilty.

6)  It implies the earth is flat

7)  It implies the world is about 6000 years old.


Which of the above do you accept as biblical truth  and do you think they correlate with present day knowledge about the state of reality?


The Christian who oppose and persecuted Copernicus and Galileo got their inspiration from the bible.  Why?  

Because, the heliocentric worldview they were promoted was at odds with the view that humans and the earth was the sole and main raison-d'etre for god's creation.  Any other view would have marginalised man's importance.  The same reason lies at the heart of the opposition to the Theory of Evolution.


Where do you think the witch-hunters got their inspiration?  Let me help you out:

Exodus 22:18 (King James Version)

18Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.


This one verse was probably responsible for the death of millions of people in Christian Europe and America.   It is sad to say that it is still happening across Africa today, thanks to the religious mindset of the people.



I did ask some questions earlier, which have been tactfully ignored by you and your ilk.  Let me re-state them here again;

1)    What is the current accepted view about the age of the earth?

2)    How would one account for the fact that there are no placental mammals native to Australia?

These two questions are important features about the world that need an explanation.  Where would you suggest one goes to seeks answers to such questions?