desiji:
I wouldn't have contributed if not that i am living in both worlds, i.e Europe and Africa, there is absolutely no basis for comparism in that you have to look at both at all different levels,per capita income of both lands, value of service, tax returns service if i own my own home Govt subsidies of buying my own home. insurance of the any artisan working for me i.e if a mistake is made i won't be the one carrying the ball. The Nigerian factor ist that any thing planned is liable to change in the next five minutes, different quotes from Artisan with a wide variable leaving the client with the issue of sieving between the chaff and the seed. there is absolutely no basis of caoparism

That’s how some asshat artisan that I invited to give a quote was trying to lecture me about how much this will cost in the US.

I asked him if he had insurance like his US counterpart, if he had the tools like his US counterparts, OSHA, IRS, FTB, license, etc

desiji:
I wouldn't have contributed if not that i am living in both worlds, i.e Europe and Africa, there is absolutely no basis for comparism in that you have to look at both at all different levels,per capita income of both lands, value of service, tax returns service if i own my own home Govt subsidies of buying my own home. insurance of the any artisan working for me i.e if a mistake is made i won't be the one carrying the ball. The Nigerian factor ist that any thing planned is liable to change in the next five minutes, different quotes from Artisan with a wide variable leaving the client with the issue of sieving between the chaff and the seed. there is absolutely no basis of caoparism

Your post only lends more to the fact that it it easier for an average person to get those things in place over there, than it is in the Nigeria.

It's easier to earn $25 working in the US than it is to earn N9000 working in Nigeria ( heck more than 70% of Nigerian graduates earn less per day)
The dispute is in the cost of getting the same quality of job and or buying the same item here vs over there. Skilled labour is cheap in Nigeria, in comparison to the west even though i agree that in most cases the expertise will vary.

@ bolded is the reason why I made the earlier post about what our building industry truly needs. A unification of standard

Each environment has it's peculiarities

EgunMogaji:


This is not about Nigeria versus USA.

You spoke about cost comparison which is exactly what this is about, I have no intentions of debating one country over the other

allCopacetic:
At $25 ( approx N9000) per day, I'm sure you can get julius berger level artisans in Nigeria. Afterall the Julius berger works aren't done by expatriates they're done by our local artisans with the requisite training.

Again, any material that isn't manufactured in The US or North America is more likely to be cheaper in Nigeria than it is in the US. The problem will be finding it.

Egun is right on that one, one can even get for less. The 9k a day labor, some of the guys that work for me even get more then that. If you could remember one of my conversation with you, weren't you surprised when I told that. Still many of them do not want to do nothing good, in term of quality of job. I stand to be challenge on that comment for labor cost.

allCopacetic:

You spoke about cost comparison which is exactly what this is about, I have no intentions of debating one country over the other

Not true. No interest in comparison between a society that works and one that doesn’t.

My original post was asking about standards of pricing in Nigeria.

Skimanski brought up the US comparison, and if anything I was directly responding to that specific post.

kopell:
Egun is right on that one, one can even get for less. The 9k a day labor, some of the guys that work for me even get more then that. If you could remember one of my conversation with you, weren't you surprised when I told that. Still many of them do not want to do nothing good, in term of quality of job. I stand to be challenge on that comment for labor cost.

Lol my oga u know that your case is like one in four dozen.
If we're talking on the larger scale, How many people pay thier skilled techicians that much.
And this one's are skilled technicians o not labour hands.

I don't think a licensed and trained plumber or Carpenter will be paid $25 per day in the US

It is definitely unfortunate if people get paid for good work but in turn do not deliver the value expected.

kopell:
Egun is right on that one, one can even get for less. The 9k a day labor, some of the guys that work for me even get more then that. If you could remember one of my conversation with you, weren't you surprised when I told that. Still many of them do not want to do nothing good, in term of quality of job. I stand to be challenge on that comment for labor cost.

And most likely the US guy will get it right the first time. While I’m wasting time, money and materials on rework on my site.

Have burglary job to a welder with specific instructions. Paid to have in installed. Saw the installed pics, 6 out of 9 were wrong. So I have to pay bricklayer to remove and reinstall. This all adds up.

The funny thing is that some of us build in US and Nigeria so we have the experience in both countries but the Nigerian guys that have never built in the US think they know more than us based on hearsay and second hand info.

Okay o.

They ought to just stop blaming the clients for shopping around and calling them cheap.

EgunMogaji:


My original post was asking about standards of pricing in Nigeria.

You're right Chief.

My response was to this However

EgunMogaji:

Bros, please, Nigeria is very expensive. For quality level of material and labor.

allCopacetic:


Lol my oga u know that your case is like one in four dozen.
If we're talking on the larger scale, How many people pay thier skilled techicians that much.
And this one's are skilled technicians o not labour hands.

I don't think a licensed and trained plumber or Carpenter will be paid $25 per day in the US

It is definitely unfortunate if people get paid for good work but in turn do not deliver the value expected.

How do you know? Have you ever hired one or made an attempt to hire one before?

allCopacetic:


You're right Chief.

My response was to this However

Again, I was responding directly to a specific post by Skimanski where he brought up the US vs Nigeria thing.

Again, it’s not my intention to debate a country where things work versus a corrupted one where nothing works.

EgunMogaji:


How do you know? Have you ever hired one or made an attempt to hire one before?

Lol, no be fight na oga Eguns.
I do not need to hire one to know.

I also am very impressed with what it takes to be qualified as one. This is what we NEED!!!!

allCopacetic:

What I believe will be more helpful is an enforcement of practical licensing and labour standards ( the use of certifed artisans or labourers only) even Baba kasali can simply get the proper training and be certifed.
The availability of better hands in the industry will minimize the use of fake materials . It also makes it easier for a consumer to compare labour costs as your are sure all or most are certifed to give a decent level of output, hence unlikely to worry about comparing the labour cost of a cut and nail artisan to that of a licensed or certified technician.

Fake materials should not be in the market under any circumstances.

Setting a standard fee for labor shouldn’t be dependent on licensure.

That’s a different ballgame.

Unlicensed artisans should not get work because they can be verified and it is a criminal offense to work for money without a license.

allCopacetic:

Lol, no be fight na oga Eguns.
I do not need to hire one to know.

I also am very impressed with what it takes to be qualified as one. This is what we NEED!!!!

So you haven’t hired one before then.

What fight?

By the way, some plumbers pull in six figures.

desiji:
I wouldn't have contributed if not that i am living in both worlds, i.e Europe and Africa, there is absolutely no basis for comparism in that you have to look at both at all different levels,per capita income of both lands, value of service, tax returns service if i own my own home Govt subsidies of buying my own home. insurance of the any artisan working for me i.e if a mistake is made i won't be the one carrying the ball. The Nigerian factor ist that any thing planned is liable to change in the next five minutes, different quotes from Artisan with a wide variable leaving the client with the issue of sieving between the chaff and the seed. there is absolutely no basis of caoparism

Thank you, still many of these so called contractors will be comparing themselves professionally with the other side of the world, otherwise many of them do not have the ethics of professionalism. In the issue of quotations, variations in millions is mind-bugling. My greatest concern sometimes isn't even the cost but the quality of services provided for the cost is very shameful.

EgunMogaji:


Fake materials should not be in the market under any circumstances.

Setting a standard fee for labor shouldn’t be dependent on licensure.

And I absolutely agree, but which do you think is easier to Implement or regulate? The labour market or the material market.

How can you set a standard fee for labour without a standard qualification or skill benchmark. there will be no basis for comparison

the wage argument is not very accurate.

indians are taking over the it labour market , and they cost way less than americans
togolese are willing to come to nigeria, earn the same wages as nigerian artsians and deliver good work
i have clients shafting me on cost, and i still go the extra mile to provide quality

EgunMogaji:


So you haven’t hired one before then.

What fight?

By the way, some plumbers pull in six figures.

No, i currently live in Nigeria and haven't had the luxury of getting a home in the US where I can hire a 6 digit plumber.

But then, the question is not who i have not hired , but what the figures are.

I no longer provide any paid services, and frankly i have no vested interests whatsoever in labour matters. my posts are solely academic and coversational

allCopacetic:

No, i currently live in Nigeria and haven't had the luxury of getting a home in the US where I can hire a 6 digit plumber.

But then, the question is not who i have not hired , but what the figures are.

I no longer povide any paid services, and frankly i have no vested interests so our discussions are solely academic and coversational

The reason I asked the question is because you’re coming across, at least to me, that you have experience in what can be gotten in terms of labor and materials in the US.

You doubt every single personal experience that I’ve put out front my multiple new builds and renovation work in the US.

My reason on this post is twofold.

First, it gets my skin crawling when people are called cheap because they are sourcing for the best price.

Secondly, I do feel that it’ll be really helpful if we can have standards in labor fees.

Even if they set th standard here in Nigeria a lot of clients still won't pay... severally we've been called to redo a job we previously quoted for which the client opted for a cheaper option.. at the end the cheaper option backfire....


Most time when we spec out a job and give quote client won't even look at the contents they are only interested in the final figure and when the see that the figure is more than the others they shove it in the dust bin....

A client asked for a whole house audio setup with keypad wireless control in each room.. but when he saw the final quote without checking the contents he went for a cheaper one which doesn't has the facilities we are providing..

oyb:
the wage argument is not very accurate.

indians are taking over the it labour market , and they cost way less than americans
togolese are willing to come to nigeria, earn the same wages as nigerian artsians and deliver good work
i have clients shafting me on cost, and i still go the extra mile to provide quality

What really grinds my gears is when I have to do rework.

I really don’t know why people don’t hold their quality of work with pride.

allCopacetic:


And I absolutely agree, but which do you think is easier to Implement or regulate? The labour market or the material market.

How can you set a standard fee for labour without a standard qualification or skill benchmark. there will be no basis for comparison

The fakes and incompetents will run out if the home building industry.

If today they set up a standard to say that houses in an estate are N15,000 per square feet, who do you think I’ll go and beg on bent knees to build my house, Johnny or ArchitectB?

The same way that I know the good guys based on their finished projects is how others will know too.

Labor fee standards first, the rest will follow. But as per Nigeria tinz we like to put the cart before the horse.

EgunMogaji:


What really grinds my gears is when I have to do rework.

I really don’t know why people don’t hold their quality of work with pride.

As for we oo even though when client don't pay to our expectations we won't and will never do a shoddy job...


Same client can refer you to a more paying clients �

twinskenny:
Even if they set th standard here in Nigeria a lot of clients still won't pay... severally we've been called to redo a job we previously quoted for which the client opted for a cheaper option.. at the end the cheaper option backfire....


Most time when we spec out a job and give quote client won't even look at the contents they are only interested in the final figure and when the see that the figure is more than the others they shove it in the dust bin....

A client asked for a whole house audio setup with keypad wireless control in each room.. but when he saw the final quote without checking the contents he went for a cheaper one which doesn't has the facilities we are providing..

Because there’s no standard.

Why would I not pay a top flight agency if they clearly showed me why their material is more? Labor should be close for the same house and equipment.

I really wish you guys can travel to see how your contemporaries are billing for work in advanced countries.

twinskenny:
Even if they set th standard here in Nigeria a lot of clients still won't pay... severally we've been called to redo a job we previously quoted for which the client opted for a cheaper option.. at the end the cheaper option backfire....


Most time when we spec out a job and give quote client won't even look at the contents they are only interested in the final figure and when the see that the figure is more than the others they shove it in the dust bin....

A client asked for a whole house audio setup with keypad wireless control in each room.. but when he saw the final quote without checking the contents he went for a cheaper one which doesn't has the facilities we are providing..

Part of the problem is the client, but part of the problem may also be packaging/emotional intelligence. everyone by their nature will look for a cheaper option if they feel it will meet their requirements

it is for you to convince them

EgunMogaji:


What really grinds my gears is when I have to do rework.

I really don’t know why people don’t hold their quality of work with pride.

heh. thats where you're wrong. a lot of artisans and contractors for that matter are EXTREMELY PROUD of their shiit work.

it is also about market segmentation. some people will be very happy with that electrical quote and with the finished product.

artisans and contractors unfortunately do not fully understand that they have to segment /stratify their customers both in quality and in cost.

they take the low quality as a baseline and expect that they can bill based on clients pocket without any value add

i have had fights with contractors whose attitude can be summarized as they expect that the work they did for johnny hyundai is ok for chief s class. even though chief s class is paying premium

i had a loong talk with another vendor about this very issue. he gave me a poorly finished job. and i told him he need to understand - this is not a room and parlour you are building. you are building for a multinational that has paid you good money. stop applying kobo wise naira foolish mentality etc etc

EgunMogaji:


You doubt every single personal experience that I’ve put out front my multiple new builds and renovation work in the US.

Lol, this is baffling Chief.

EgunMogaji:


First, it gets my skin crawling when people are called cheap because they are sourcing for the best price.

Secondly, I do feel that it’ll be really helpful if we can have standards in labor fees.

Again u put the cost of Labour before the quality of Labour.... This is where the conflict is .
If there is a standard in labour quality, as obtains in other climes, it'll be very easy to set a standard for the fees, as there is a set, basis for comparison.
Infact the consumers stand to gain more , I can collect as many quotes as I like and pick the most affordable, knowing that each and every quote will lead to the delivery of a good job. In the end it'll even make standard labour rates irrelevant. As some people will be willing to deliver at slightly less to get competitive edge.

You also seem to forget that in other feilds outside of Electircal, I am also a consumer like you, and i know the natural need for good bargains. But This will not make me put the cart before the horse.

EgunMogaji:


Because there’s no standard.

Why would I not pay a top flight agency if they clearly showed me why their material is more? Labor should be close for the same house and equipment.

I really wish you guys can travel to see how your contemporaries are billing for work in advanced countries.

actually, where there is no standard is in domestic projects. in commercial and high end residential projects, contractors are engaged, and you have boqs, defect liability , etc. within that framework, there are controls in place.

the domestic arrangement is very informal, and thus comes with a lot of risk

allCopacetic:

Lol, this is baffling Chief.



Again u put the cost of Labour before the quality of Labour.... This is where the conflict is .
If there is a standard in labour quality, as obtains in other climes, it'll be very easy to set a standard for the fees, as there is a set, basis for comparison.
Infact the consumers stand to gain more , I can collect as many quotes as I like and pick the most affordable, knowing that each and every quote will lead to the delivery of a good job. In the end it'll even make standard labour rates irrelevant. As some people will be willing to deliver at slightly less to get competitive edge.

Without proper fees in place what will compel seasoned artisans to play?

Also with seasoned artisans at play, the inefficient ones will scamper.

It’s easy really but I understand your unwillingness to consider that angle.

It is well.

None of this will happen anyways.

Next week another hapless and bamboozled user will stagger in here after being flim flammed. He’ll be blamed for being cheap and comparing prices

It’s a maddening cycle to me.

oyb:


actually, where there is no standard is in domestic projects. in commercial and high end residential projects, contractors are engaged, and you have boqs, defect liability , etc. within that framework, there are controls in place.

the domestic arrangement is very informal, and thus comes with a lot of risk

You’re right Sir.

99% of what we talk about here are kobo kobo builds

allCopacetic:

Lol, this is baffling Chief.



Again u put the cost of Labour before the quality of Labour.... This is where the conflict is .
If there is a standard in labour quality, as obtains in other climes, it'll be very easy to set a standard for the fees, as there is a set, basis for comparison.
Infact the consumers stand to gain more , I can collect as many quotes as I like and pick the most affordable, knowing that each and every quote will lead to the delivery of a good job. In the end it'll even make standard labour rates irrelevant. As some people will be willing to deliver at slightly less to get competitive edge.

You also seem to forget that in other feilds outside of Electircal, I am also a consumer like you, and i know the natural need for good bargains. But This will not make me put the cart before the horse.

Boss You seem to always hit the Nail right at the Point @ Bolded

Baba Eguns, As much as I blame the Govt for the things that happen. even we still should share the part of the Blame. because i remember when people were saying how can someone charge over 600k for plastering a duplex here on this forum. We argued the issue as if the guys that charged it had committed a crime. If you do a calculation of 25dollars for a Mason here, then you will be shocked you are looking at over N1.5m for that Job.

Now this is it, even if we see a Julius berger kind of artisan here in Nigeria, we would still insist he charges at the least not too far off from what the normal guys are charging. Most time we want him to charge same with the normal guys. I remember the guys that had that argument then on this forum most likely live overseas.

skimanski:
Baba Eguns, As much as I blame the Govt for the things that happen. even we still should share the part of the Blame. because i remember when people were saying how can someone charge over 600k for plastering a duplex here on this forum. We argued the issue as if the guys that charged it had committed a crime. If you do a calculation of 25dollars for a Mason here, then you will be shocked you are looking at over N1.5m for that Job.

Now this is it, even if we see a Julius berger kind of artisan here in Nigeria, we would still insist he charges at the least not too far off from what the normal guys are charging. Most time we want him to charge same with the normal guys. I remember the guys that had that argument then on this forum most likely live overseas.

We have all agreed their is no basis for comparism so lets leave that it is in our Nigerian DNA to also go for a Bargain, maybe it is because of our demographical disadvantage that made us so, but i don't see anything wrong about it, If a can get an artisan to give me better value for my money why shouldn't i try, it is my perogative to get more for little.

Because somebody is providing me with a Julius Berger kind of build, i don't have the right to bargain ? that is where you lost me.