OLAADEGBU:

If a man who is a just judge will not take the excuse that "God made me like this.  Sin is His fault!" then I see no reason why the Perfect righteous Judge will do any less.  If this won't work in a court, it certainly won't work on Judgment Day.  Even with an expert defense lawyer, it would take a pretty inept judge to fall for the old "God made me do it" defense.  We humans are responsible moral agents.  The "buck" stopped at Adam.  He tried to blame both God and Eve for his sin; Eve blamed the serpent while the serpent had no leg to stand on.  It is human nature to play the "blame game" but this will not work with God on the Judgment Day.

You can't use the way mankind handles its affairs to determine how God handles his. Remember, his ways are not our ways.
This is not an issue of playing any blame game but simply stating out facts to make one try to really understand what God is up to; what his plans and purpose are.
the facts from the bible say that God created the devil and the devil deceives mankind to sin and not follow God and that man without Christ cannot(not "will not" seek God or obey God.

Rom 3:9-12
(9)  What then? are we worse off than they? In no way: because we have before made it clear that Jews as well as Greeks are all under the power of sin;
(10)  As it is said in the holy Writings, There is not one who does righteousness;
(11)  Not one who has the knowledge of what is right, not one who is a searcher after God;
(12)  They have all gone out of the way, there is no profit in any of them; there is not one who does good, not so much as one:


The above shows that man without God is under the power/influence of sin.it means they are controlled by the power or influence of sin; meaning they have no choice in the matter. it's like being under the control of a spell.
that is the state of men without God; hence their lifestyle. thus they are not righteous,they cannot seek God,they cannot do good.

Notice the word I use; cannot, - meaning an impossibility.

Remember, it was God that subjected humanity that way from the beginning. He did this through the devil which he created for that purpose.

And how come men are under the power of sin?

2Co 4:3-4
(3)  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
(4)  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Verse 4 of the above shows that man rejects the gospel of Christ because it is hidden from them cos the devil has blinded them; not because they chose to reject it.
the concluding parts of verse 4 clearly shows that if not for the blindening, they would understand the gospel and wholeheartedly accept it.

so, it isn't the doing of mankind that some people do not accept the gospel of christ; it is the doing of the devil who is merely accomplishing the task which he was created for.

One of the major points put across by this whole scenario is kind of like: God showing man that our life and dependency is on God alone and not ourselves; and that we can do nothing without him.

John 15:5
(5)  I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

So, Olaadegbu, without Christ,you can do nothing; without Christ, you would not have come to the knowledge of his gospel so as to be saved.
if Christ did not empower u to come into the knowledge of his divine saving grace, u would have still been dead in your sins.
it had absolutely nothing to do with u, ur will or ur self.

ttalks:

You can't use the way mankind handles its affairs to determine how God handles his. Remember, his ways are not our ways.
This is not an issue of playing any blame game but simply stating out facts to make one try to really understand what God is up to; what his plans and purpose are.
the facts from the bible say that God created the devil and the devil deceives mankind to sin and not follow God and that man without Christ cannot(not "will not" seek God or obey God.

Rom 3:9-12
(9) What then? are we worse off than they? In no way: because we have before made it clear that Jews as well as Greeks are all under the power of sin;
(10) As it is said in the holy Writings, There is not one who does righteousness;
(11) Not one who has the knowledge of what is right, not one who is a searcher after God;
(12) They have all gone out of the way, there is no profit in any of them; there is not one who does good, not so much as one:


The above shows that man without God is under the power/influence of sin.it means they are controlled by the power or influence of sin; meaning they have no choice in the matter. it's like being under the control of a spell.
that is the state of men without God; hence their lifestyle. thus they are not righteous,they cannot seek God,they cannot do good.

Notice the word I use; cannot, - meaning an impossibility.

Remember, it was God that subjected humanity that way from the beginning. He did this through the devil which he created for that purpose.

And how come men are under the power of sin?

2Co 4:3-4
(3) But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
(4) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Verse 4 of the above shows that man rejects the gospel of Christ because it is hidden from them cos the devil has blinded them; not because they chose to reject it.
the concluding parts of verse 4 clearly shows that if not for the blindening, they would understand the gospel and wholeheartedly accept it.

so, it isn't the doing of mankind that some people do not accept the gospel of christ; it is the doing of the devil who is merely accomplishing the task which he was created for.

One of the major points put across by this whole scenario is kind of like: God showing man that our life and dependency is on God alone and not ourselves; and that we can do nothing without him.

John 15:5
(5) I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

So, Olaadegbu, without Christ,you can do nothing; without Christ, you would not have come to the knowledge of his gospel so as to be saved.
if Christ did not empower u to come into the knowledge of his divine saving grace, u would have still been dead in your sins.
it had absolutely nothing to do with u, your will or your self.

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.  For if he that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit, which you have not received, or another gospel, which you have not accepted, you might well bear with him." -- 2 Corinthians.11:3

When the serpent deceived Eve, he cast doubt on God's Word, causing her to mistrust God Himself (Genesis 3:1-5).  God said, "You shall surely die," but Eve chose to believe that God was deceitful.  To partake of the fruit was an act of willful rebellion against God who had not only given Adam and Eve life but had lavished His goodness upon them.

We must remember that Satan is the father of lies (John 8:44), and he usually uses enough of the truth to make the lie believable.  Here Paul cautions believers to reject any message that differs from the true gospel as revealed in the Word of God.  This is the true meaning of doctrines of devils from the abyss (pit of hell), that is, half lies and half truths. (Ephesians 4:18; Luke 4:1-13).

OLAADEGBU:

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit, which you have not received, or another gospel, which you have not accepted, you might well bear with him." -- 2 Corinthians.11:3

When the serpent deceived Eve, he cast doubt on God's Word, causing her to mistrust God Himself (Genesis 3:1-5). God said, "You shall," but Eve chose to believe that God was deceitful. To partake of the fruit was an act of willful rebellion against the God who had not only given Adam and Eve life but had lavished His goodness upon them.

We must remember that Satan is the father of lies (John 8:44), and he usually uses enough of the truth to make the lie believable. Here Paul cautions believers to reject any message that differs from the true gospel as revealed in the Word of God. This is the true meaning of doctrines of devils from the abyss (pit of hell), that is, half lies and half truths. (Ephesians 4:18; Luke 4:1-13).

Olaadegbu,

Read what the word of God says and settle this issue once and for all.

John 15:16(KJV)
(16) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.


John 15:16(CEV)
(16) You did not choose me. I chose you and sent you out to produce fruit, the kind of fruit that will last. Then my Father will give you whatever you ask for in my name.

is it difficult to see? Is it so hard to see that you/me/any saved Christian did not choose Christ but that Christ chose us and that is why we are operating within his saving grace?

Mat 22:14(KJV)
(14) For many are called, but few are chosen.

Mat 22:14(BBE)
(14) For out of all to whom the good news has come, only a small number will get salvation.

Eph 1:4-5
(4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
(5) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Rom 8:28-30(KJV)
(28) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
(29) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(30) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 8:28-30(CEV)
(28) We know that God is always at work for the good of everyone who loves him. They are the ones God has chosen for his purpose,
(29) and he has always known who his chosen ones would be. He had decided to let them become like his own Son, so that his Son would be the first of many children.
(30) God then accepted the people he had already decided to choose, and he has shared his glory with them.


is it so hard for you to see that those of us that are being saved or are yet to be saved have been chosen from the beginning;before the foundation of the world?
It is because we have been chosen that we are saved; that we accepted the gospel of Christ.
It is because the others were not chosen from the beginning that they continually and will always continue to reject the gospel of Christ. It isn't because they want to reject it or chose to reject it; they can't accept it because they were not chosen.

That is the ireffutable fact that is being communicated by the word of God; not my words.

@ttalks,

The following verses of  Bible says that Salvation is possible for every person:

That whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.  For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.  For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. -- John 3:15-17

"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth." -- 1 Timothy 2:4

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." -- 2 Peter 2:9

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come.  And let him that hears say, Come.  And let him that is athirst come.  And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." -- Revelation 22:17

When you put these verses including the ones you quoted into proper perspective you will realise that God has called all men and all are free to accept or reject the call to Salvation.  All who do accept, He has foreknown and predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son that His Son might be the firstborn among many brethren.  Those who reject the plan, He has foreknown and predestinated to be consigned to eternal hell as an everlasting monument of His wrath on rebels (Isaiah 66:22-24; Rev.14:9-11). 

God has foreordained, determined and predestinated that all men be called to salvation, but that only the ones who accept become genuine called ones to be justified and glorified.  None are glorified, but those who, according to His purpose, meet the terms of the gospel.  Who they would be is left up to the individual.  All things depend upon meeting the conditions of the gospel (Romans 8:1-13, 28).

We can see that God has predestined all children of God to be adopted into His family, but who becomes a child of God is left up to each individual.  You cannot say on Judgment Day that "God made me do it" or that "murder, stealing, lying is in my genes" How dare you blame God for your sins.

The man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument.

Olaadegbu,

Your last post is tending towards making me declare the whole point I'm trying to make here. But I can't pour everything out on you just yet cos based on your posts, it's clear u do not get what i am saying and cannot accept what i am still yet to say. Understanding and accepting the points i'm trying to lay across is necessary for understanding what i am still yet to say.

But, anyway, i'll still try once more.

Here's a little summary of what i am trying to say:

Before God created man, he had a plan and purpose.
That plan and purpose were the driving force behind creating man and subjecting him to the way he has been and is.
Part of that plan brought about creating an evil being(the devil) for the purpose of deceiving and blindening man and preventing him from coming to the knowledge of the truth at the improper time.
Before creation,he also had concluded the way by which some chosen creation would see the light and be saved(Christ's sacrifice).
Nothing took God by surprise(not even Adam's fall) because all was just according to his purpose for creation.

These chosen creation for salvation are all those who come to the knowledge of the true gospel of Christ and are saved by it. And they were chosen for a purpose and that purpose was for the judgement and justification of the rest of the world.
The unchosen or the rest of the world are in the state they are in because they have been subjected that way by God.

Now, God's plan is to use these chosen saved ones to  bring about judgement and justification of the rest through Christ at the end of ages;

Rom 8:19-23
(19)  For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
(20) For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
(21)  Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
(22)  For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
(23)  And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Verse 20 shows that God is the one that subjected humanity into what it is(he is responsible;there is no denying that fact).
Verse 21 shows the whole goal of 20; that humanity itself shall be delivered into the glorious liberty of the children of God

verse 21 in a little way tells us what God's intention is at the end of the day; he is going to save all of humanity. Yes, all.

Now i know all your senses would be screaming "Nooo" at that last sentence because it completely denies all that u've ever known;not the word of God.
And i still think u are not ready yet to accept that fact based on what u've been posting. Many aren't.
But it takes understanding of all I've been saying to get this last point.

1Co 6:2
(2)  Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

This is why we are chosen; because we are going to judge the world. How do u think this applies?

How also do u think this verse applies:

1Co 3:15
(15) If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


It's too early or too soon for me to be making these statements,but they are facts about this life, and cannot be understood unless very proper study is carried out on the word of God.

Conclusion: God subjected humanity to the way it is. God will still free this humanity from that bondage which it was subjected too.
Note: Humanity refers to all mankind; and currently that refers to the saved and unsaved.

@abiodun815,

?? ?? ??

@ttalk,

A cursory look of what Paul was saying in chapter 8 of the epistle of Romans was about the hope of believers in Christ and their prospects under tribulation.  That there is an impurity,deformity and infirmity that has come upon the creature by the fall of man.  That man is used or abused as instruments of sin.  Sin has been and is, the guilty cause of all the suffering that exists in the creation of God.  It has brought woes of earth; kindled the flames of hell and brought about the sufferings of man.  But there is hope for the saints of God in the new heaven and the new earth when everything will be restored to the new eternal perfect state.

We have today, hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, droughts and earthquakes which kills thousands of people each year.  Multitudes endure crippling diseases, endless suffering and unspeakable pain.  Many non-Christians credit a heartless mother nature for giving us all this grief. Others, such as yourself blame God.

However, if God is responsible for all this heartache, that presents an interesting dilemma.  If God is an all-loving Father figure, as we are told, we seem to have three choices: 1) God is a tyrant, who gets His kicks from seeing kids die of Leukaemia; 2) God blew it when He made everything (that He is creative but incompetent); 3) Something between God and man is radically wrong.  These are our choices.  If you take time to consider the evidence you are most likely to lean toward option 3 except you have an ulterior motive.  Every neutral person reading this will admit that something between man and God is radically wrong, and the Bible tells us what it is.

There is a war going on.  We are told that mankind is an enemy of God in his mind through wicked works (Colossians 1:21).  That's not too hard to see.  Man is continually committing violent acts such as murder and rape, lying, stealing, etc., as the daily news confirms.  Man uses God's name as a curse word, while Mother Nature gets the glory for God's creation, unless there's a horrible disaster, then man calls that an "act of God."

The current War going on between me and your church members (petres 007, ttalk, Kunleoshob, chukwudi, Jagoon, TV01 etc) is due to the acronym of WAR which means [b]W[/b]e [b]A[/b]re [b]R[/b]ight.  This war is becaue we have the convictions that we are in the right.  However, a quick look at God's Law shows us who is right and who is wrong.  We, not God, are the guilty party.  If we want His blessings on our lives, we must make peace with Him, and that is possible only though faith in Jesus Christ.

OLAADEGBU:

@ttalk,

A cursory look of what Paul was saying in chapter 8 of the epistle of Romans was about the hope of believers in Christ and their prospects under tribulation.  That there is an impurity,deformity and infirmity that has come upon the creature by the fall of man.  That man is used or abused as instruments of sin.  Sin has been and is, the guilty cause of all the suffering that exists in the creation of God.  It has brought woes of earth; kindled the flames of hell and brought about the sufferings of man.  But there is hope for the saints of God in the new heaven and the new earth when everything will be restored to the new eternal perfect state.

We have today, hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, droughts and earthquakes which kills thousands of people each year.  Multitudes endure crippling diseases, endless suffering and unspeakable pain.  Many non-Christians credit a heartless mother nature for giving us all this grief. Others, such as yourself blame God.

However, if God is responsible for all this heartache, that presents an interesting dilemma.  If God is an all-loving Father figure, as we are told, we seem to have three choices: 1) God is a tyrant, who gets His kicks from seeing kids die of Leukaemia; 2) God blew it when He made everything (that He is creative but incompetent); 3) Something between God and man is radically wrong.  These are our choices.  If you take time to consider the evidence you are most likely to lean toward option 3 except you have an ulterior motive.  Every neutral person reading this will admit that something between man and God is radically wrong, and the Bible tells us what it is.

There is a war going on.  We are told that mankind is an enemy of God in his mind through wicked works (Colossians 1:21).  That's not too hard to see.  Man is continually committing violent acts such as murder and rape, lying, stealing, etc., as the daily news confirms.  Man uses God's name as a curse word, while Mother Nature gets the glory for God's creation, unless there's a horrible disaster, then man calls that an "act of God."

The current War going on between me and your church members (petres 007, ttalk, Kunleoshob, chukwudi, Jagoon, TV01 etc) is due to the acronym of WAR which means W[/b]e [b]A[/b]re [b]R[/b]ight.  This war is becaue we have the convictions that we are in the right.  However, a quick look at God's Law shows us who is right and who is wrong.  We, not God, are the guilty party.  If we want His blessings on our lives, we must make peace with Him, and that is possible only though faith in Jesus Christ.

Plain and harsh realities:

Isa 29:6
(6)  Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with [b]earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.


Mat 28:2
(2)  And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.

Exo 15:8
(  And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea. - [This does look like a tsunami].

These are stuff which God caused or did in the past.Why is it so strange that those happening today should have his hand in them?

Amo 3:6
(6)  Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

I don't bother or worry about why all these things happen because :

Eph 1:11
(11)  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Rom 8:28
(28)  And we know that he works all things together for the good of those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.

Oh, the freedom and peace that comes from knowing that everything which happens is all according to God's will and purpose, and together for the good of those that love him.

@ttalk,

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose. -- Romans 8:28

We can see here three most important words: "And we know," We don't just hope, he didn't say we suspect this might be true. We know all things work together for good. All things are working, God's providence is working on behalf of them who love God and who walk obediently according to His purpose. This leads to the next verse:

"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and who He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified."

This has been explained in my penultimate post and I have to bring it up again since I am not sure you read it.

OLAADEGBU:

@ttalks,

When you put these verses including the ones you quoted into proper perspective you will realise that God has called all men and all are free to accept or reject the call to Salvation. All who do accept, He has foreknown and predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son that His Son might be the firstborn among many brethren. Those who reject the plan, He has foreknown and predestinated to be consigned to eternal hell as an everlasting monument of His wrath on rebels (Isaiah 66:22-24; Rev.14:9-11).

God has foreordained, determined and predestinated that all men be called to salvation, but that only the ones who accept become genuine called ones to be justified and glorified. None are glorified, but those who, according to His purpose, meet the terms of the gospel. Who they would be is left up to the individual. All things depend upon meeting the conditions of the gospel (Romans 8:1-13, 28).

We can see that God has predestined all children of God to be adopted into His family, but who becomes a child of God is left up to each individual. You cannot say on Judgment Day that "God made me do it" or that "murder, stealing, lying is in my genes" How dare you blame God for your sins.

The man with an experience is not at the mercy of a man with an argument.

This leads us to the classical paradox, which is fate (predestination) versus free will. Do we have free will, or are we predestined? Did Judas really have the choice of betraying Christ? It was predicted in Psalm 41:9 and it was fulfilled in Judas. The question is, did Judas really have a choice?

When God prophesies a future event, does that mean it is inevitable? Yes, it certainly does, because He sees the end from the beginning. Do we have any choice? Yes, we do.

Scientists have discovered that time is a physical property, this was not discovered before the 20th century but now we have a better understanding of what time is, and that living in time, we view events as a sequence, that is in three directions: Past, present and future.  Behind us is the past; ahead us is the future.  God, who created time is outside time, He lives in eternity.  He can see time in one stretch (past, present and future at one go).  He can see what we are going to do.  That doesn't mean He relieves us of the choice; it just means that He, in His infinite knowledge, knows the choice we are going to make.  The climax of all this is found in verses 31-34:

"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?  It is God that justifieth.  Who is he that condemneth?  It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

Paul is saying that the prosecutor is our defense council.  He has our case wired: His Father is the Judge.  Paul continues in verses 35-39:

"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or unclothedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.  For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

It doesn't get any better than this.