joey150:
hahah now he agrees he has been yarning dust.

I told you from minute 1 you came here that you were my comic relief.

I don't get you? Agree what?

So you think I am clueless or cannot open up scriptures? I don't read out of context. I will look and we will talk because the scriptures he put out are many.

You can be rest assured I will respond wella and upright too.

But first, let him tell us if purgatory is real or not.

analice107:

How.are you sure Christ and his apostles read the Maccabees? I tried reading the Maccabees, i couldn't make any head or tail out of it. Have you read the Book of Mormons? That's how i see the Maccabees. There's no connection between the Bible we read and these books.
The book of Judith was another matter. Reading the Book of Judith, i found some cities mentioned therein and their rulers, I googled the cities, google search led me back to the Book of Judith. They never existed, but only in the Book of Judith. The Book of Esther and the Jews' encounter in sushan was so different from the Esther of the Bible, the same with Daniel. Tobit appears diabolical to an extent. Those books are fit to be put together as a book, but outside the Bible.

the Jewish book then contained maccabees and christ and the apostles used the traditional jewish books then. You can google search again if you like.

I am still expecting your funny twist to the other part of the post that you quoted..

joey150:
but you clearly are not. If you did, you would answer simple questions and admit to or deny some facts so i know where your stand is.

You just go picking up verses like the whole bible should be tied to purgatory. I quoted you in one. You couldnt find a fault there. You have since ignored it and moved on to picking up random verses...

Dont you see i get what you are doing. Am seriously enjoying your merry go round. But dont deceive yourself that you came here to learn...
The intent is very clear. As always.. You are welcomed bro.

The Christians were instructed to hold on to traditions handed down to them: was purgatory one of them?

laribari:


I don't get you? Agree what?

So you think I am clue or cannot open up scriptures? I don't read out of context. I will look and we will talk because the scriptures he put out are many.

You can be rest assured I will respond wella and upright too.

But first, let me tell me if purgatory is real or not.

Hahah i trust you mr.. And your comic relief is well needed here. I aslo tagged you in a post. And am waiting for your epic twist. As i always know you will never let me down.
Cheers bro!

DoctorAlien:


The Christians were instructed to hold on to traditions handed down to them: was purgatory one of them?

so are we on the same part thay traditions where indeed handed down to them? Traditions outside the scriptures? Yes or no!

joey150:
so are we on the same part thay traditions where indeed handed down to them? Traditions outside the scriptures? Yes or no!

"His divine power has given us EVERYTHING we need for a godly life..." 2 Pet. 1:3

All you need to make Heaven is in the Bible. It has been given unto you!

You don't need lies and fables of men to make Heaven. The Bible is enough.

joey150:

Hahah i trust you mr.. And your comic relief is well needed here. I aslo tagged you in a post. And am waiting for your epic twist. As i always know you will never let me down.
Cheers bro!

Thank God you know. Don't tag me, follow me sef if you like. You always make me smile when I'm typing.

OK seriously now! Please finish up. Just tell me where purgatory is.

Why is it so hard? Prove it that everything u stand for here makes sense.


I will also wait for Ayo777 to talk on purgatory before we can talk better. This is the topic of the thread and I wanna see his view. He seems to know scriptures and I like that but hopefully he is not quoting out of context.

Sometimes u have to read the whole chapter to grasp what a verse is saying and that is where u always fail, hopefully I can learn from Ayo777 because I haven't learnt a thing from u since because you are refusing to show me ur claim by scriptures.


Purgatory!! Lol

joey150:
the Jewish book then contained maccabees and christ and the apostles used the traditional jewish books then. You can google search again if you like.

I am still expecting your funny twist to the other part of the post that you quoted..

Which one was that, i cant remember. pls remind me.

joey150:
the Jewish book then contained maccabees and christ and the apostles used the traditional jewish books then. You can google search again if you like.

I am still expecting your funny twist to the other part of the post that you quoted..

Maccabees are books written by a man called Maccabeus about 100BC. There are actually two. like Ist and 2nd. But they have no links with the characters or prohecies of the Bible. The Old Testament books didn't referenced them and vise versa.
It you read the regular Bible, you'd notice a sync between them. Like an invisible line stringing them together, but not with this Maccabeus books. He wasn't a prophet, he wasn't a priest, not shepherd, noting.
I really don't know.

This answer many questions.. A very wide range. Please do read. I got it off an online buddy of mine. Very enlightened and insightful guy.


"Since when did the bible became the only rule of authority ? Where did Jesus and His apostles say "sola scriptura" ? Which perverted fundamentalist bible version is your authority ? The Canon of Scriptures was defined, codified and canonized by the Catholic Church in the 4th century which is nowhere instructed by Christ and His apostles ! The Holy Bible itself is unbiblical because it came from the Sacred Tradition of the church not from the unbiblical sola scriptura. Now why are you using the Holy Bible that the Catholic Church decided, closed and published ? The Trinity, Nicene Creed, The Latin Vulgate (Holy Bible) / Canon of Scriptures, Immaculate Conception, Assumption were all defined by the Catholic Church to fight and dispel heresies because they are all ancient beliefs held by the early church (fathers).

2 THESSALONIANS 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Intercession / Mediation / Praying to saints and angels are all in scripture and Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church. We pray to Mary because she is not only a saint which Christ shares His humanity but she is also the Ark of the New Testament. Saints are in heaven that can pray for us, just like human beings.


REVELATION 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God. [ John to the seven churches which are in Asia. Grace be unto you and peace from him that is, and that was, and that is to come, and from the seven spirits which are before his throne, ] REVELATION 8:3-5 3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. 5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. [ The martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection. ]

REVELATION 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. [ The prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.) ] [ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.] REVELATION 6:9-10 Souls of martyrs are praying before God: "Holy faithful Master, how much longer will you wait before you pass sentence and take vengeance for our death on the inhabitants of the earth." . If the martyrs were dead, how can they pray like this before God? During the Transfiguration, Moses and Elias were talking with Jesus as seen by the apostles. [ Rev. 6:9-11 – Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven. ]

MATTHEW 17:3 How can they speak to Jesus if they are dead or just sleeping? Several verses support the doctrine of praying for the dead like the story of Lazarus and the rich man who even asked God to allow him to visit his five brethren on earth who were still alive. After death, we are alive before God. TOBIT 12:12 Angel presents Tobit and Sarah's prayer to God." thank you alray for this!

Cuts across various answers from sola scriptura to saints and intercession.
You use the same bible the catholics gave you..yet you accuse us of heresy. Isnt that plain stupidity?! A bible that is a product of oral tradition.

I am a proud catholic and i will defend my faith whole heartedly. Even if that be the only good i do on earth. I will defend God's own church!

Where are my bible verse lovers..this is a little bit off point. But the beginning addresses the bible only syndrome here. And the other parts are just wholesome knowledge.

Analice107
Laribari
Ayoku777

Come and tell me why you accepted our bible?? Because it should be heresy according to you too.

Syncan this is a good read too.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" 2 Tim. 3:16

analice107:

Which one was that, i cant remember. pls remind me.

The part where Jesus talked about prison. I mentioned you there. Same place you saw this maccabees talk.

I hope you all are not keeping mute in parts where you seem to have noting to lash at me against with?!

The lies and fables of men are not profitable for doctrine.

DoctorAlien:
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" 2 Tim. 3:16

My brother.. Keep going in circles as usual. We don discuss all this ones yesterday. Go and read previous pages .

DoctorAlien:
The lies and fables of men are not profitable for doctrine.

and yet you quote from the lies we gave you??

Hahahaha.. What a joke

joey150:
"Since when did the bible became the only rule of authority ? Where did Jesus and His apostles say "sola scriptura" ? Which perverted fundamentalist bible version is your authority ? The Canon of Scriptures was defined, codified and canonized by the Catholic Church in the 4th century which is nowhere instructed by Christ and His apostles ! The Holy Bible itself is unbiblical because it came from the Sacred Tradition of the church not from the unbiblical sola scriptura. Now why are you using the Holy Bible that the Catholic Church decided, closed and published ? The Trinity, Nicene Creed, The Latin Vulgate (Holy Bible) / Canon of Scriptures, Immaculate Conception, Assumption were all defined by the Catholic Church to fight and dispel heresies because they are all ancient beliefs held by the early church (fathers).

Cuts across various answers from sola scriptura to saints and intercession.
You use the same bible the catholics gave you..yet you accuse us of heresy. Isnt that plain stupidity?! A bible that is a product of oral tradition.

I am a proud catholic and i will defend my faith whole heartedly. Even if that be the only good i do on earth. I will defend God's own church!

I was typing a reply to your post and questions, when I thought to myself that, "How do I use the scriptures to change the mind of someone who believes his church is superior to the bible?" That was when I knew that my explanations and quoting of bible verses will be a futile endeavour. You need more of prayers. And I say this with all humility and sincere sense of concern for you.

Now; that being said, let me add.

Just because God in His grace used the Roman catholic church to compile the texts of the gospels and the epistles of the apostles into a single book doesn't make them an authority on the interpretation of the scriptures. For them to presume that would be a great self-delusion on their part.

God also used the pharisees, the sadducees and teachers of the law to painstakingly rewrite, compile and preserve the old testament texts of the law, the prophets and the psalm into scrolls. Yet that did not make them spiritual authorities on the interpretation of those texts.

Infact no one misinterpreted and wrongly used those scriptures more than the pharisees themselves, so much so that when Jesus, the very Messiah that was talked about in all their law and the prophets came, they rejected Him.

The same thing goes for the roman catholic church in many regards. Trying to make themselves authorities on the interpretation of the scriptures because God used them to compile it into a book is nothing short of self-delusion.

They also have misinterpreted and wrongly used the scriptures of truth, not to talk of adding human traditions and man-made philosophies and calling them church doctrine and even elevating their tradition above the written word (same thing Jesus rebuked the pharisees for -making the word of God of no effect through their traditions).

And when the roman catholic interpretations are challenged, they claim, we compiled the bible so we should know better. Seriously?

And when their claim can't even be found anywhere in the written word, they go overboard to say the catholic church is superior to the bible and so their claim stands. Say what?

I am someone that loves to debate with the use of the scriptures, quoting bible verses to buttress and emboss my arguments. But of what use would all my typing be to someone who believes and is fully convinced that his church is what defines truth and not the word of God? I would just be straining my thumb for nothing.

Honestly, it is prayers that can do the job of renewing the mind at this point, not scriptural debates that keep us going in circles.

Shalom!

laribari:
Finally, someone that understand scriptures and that we can share properly.

Howver, before I go on with that because I will show u stuff too and explain but first I want ur view on the following.


1. Purgatory

2. Praying through Mary when we need something from Jesus

Purgatory and praying through Mary or through saints etc are heresis. They are inconsistent with the truth revealed in the scriptures. One would need to give twisted interpretation to clear verses of the bible or smuggle in extra-scriptural books to justify those roman catholic doctrines and traditions.

Purgatory is not in the bible, neither is there anywhere in scripture we are admonished to solicit for the intercession of saints in heaven.

Shalom!

laribari:






Finally, someone that knows the scriptures but before we go further please I need you your view on the below.


1. Purgatory

2. Honouring Mary

3. Praying to Saints.




This wasn't just Paul talking; this was Paul saying what the Holy Spirit told him expressly; that some will depart from the faith in the last days.

An unbeliever cannot depart from the faith because he was never in the faith. Only someone who once believed in Christ and no longer does, can be said to have departed from the faith.

And to depart from the faith is to lose the salvation. We are justified by faith (Romans 5v1) and saved by grace through faith (Eph 2v8). To depart from the faith through which we are justified and saved by grace is to lose the salvation. We can't depart from the faith and keep the salvation.

So if faith can be departed from, according to the Spirit; then salvation can be lost. Proving that, Once saved is not automatic "always saved".

Another verse.

Revelation 3v5 -He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in whote raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels.

This was Jesus talking; and He wasn't talking to unbelievers. He was talking to christians.

He said that believers who overcome, He will not blot out their names from the book of life. Meaning that christians who don't overcome (or keep the faith) will have their names blotted out.

This proves two things.

One; that being a christian and a member of the body of Christ does not automatically mean one will end an overcomer. If every christian will end an overcomer, no matter what; Jesus would not be telling them; "He that overcometh.."

And two; that christians who don't overcome will have their names blotted out of the book of life, which is the same thing as losing eternal life.

Rev 20v15 -And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So if names written in the book of life can be blotted out; it means that eternal life and salvation can be lost by someone who once had it. Proving that; Once saved is not automatic "always saved".

Another verse;

Romans 11v22 -Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be CUT OFF.

This was Paul writing to the gentile believers, warning them not to be highminded and carefree about their salvation. That if they do not continue in God's goodness by staying in the faith ...they also shall be cut off.

Meaning that the scenario of being cut off from Christ is not an impossibility. A christian can let carnality and carefree-ness degenerate into unbelief and departure from the faith. And when that happens, that christian shall be cut off from Christ.

If it was impossible for a believer to be cut off from Christ, the scriptures will not warn us not to let it happen. And when one is cut off from Christ, he is no more saved. Proving again that salvation can be lost; and Once saved is not automatic "always saved".

Another verse;

2Thess 2v3 -Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Listen; this was Paul writing to believers about what will happen before the coming of Christ. And he said it will be preceeded by a falling away.

Note: the falling away is not referring to unbelievers. Unbelievers cannot fall away, because they were never standing. We stand by faith;

Romans 11v20 -...thou standest by faith.

2Cor 1v24 -...for by faith ye stand.

So only someone that once had faith in Christ and no longer does can be said to have "fallen away".

So the falling away is the great de-conversion from christianity that will happen in the end-times; of which we are already seeing a bit of it.

If a believer cannot later become an unbeliever, and if a christian can never be de-converted from faith in Christ; will the scripture talk about "falling away" as part of the signs of the end-times?

These proofs again that; "once saved always saved" is a false doctrine.

These are some of the scriptures that disprove "Once saved always saved" doctrine and show that:

1. A christian can depart from the faith

2. Names written in the book of life can be blotted out.

3. Someone once grafted into Christ can be cut off from Him.

4. A christian once standing by faith can fall away into unbelief.

If all these scenarios were impossible or can never happen; scriptures will not warn us of them.

You don't warn a fish about drowning because it can't drown. You don't warn people about things that can never happen to them. If believers are warned about departing from the faith, having their names blotted out of the book of life, being cut off from Christ and falling away, it is because it can happen to them. And the Spirit says some will depart from the faith.

This shows in no ambiguous terms and clarity that salvation can be lost. That "Once saved always saved" doctrine is false.

Shalom.


Finally, someone that understand scriptures and that we can share properly.

Howver, before I go on with that because I will show u stuff too and explain but first I want ur view on the following.


1. Purgatory

2. Praying through Mary when we need something from Jesus

Hahahaha, someone just destroyed all your teachings that "once saved always saved", which you have been boasting up and down here, I purposely allowed him to do so. And all you can do is ask him about purgatory, hahahaha. Such a comedian I haven't seen

DoctorAlien:


Read 1 Thess. 4:16-17. Does it imply that the righteous shall pass through judgment?

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment..." Heb.9:27 Any man who dies, righteous or sinner will be judged.

laribari:


You are a child and have no point.

Christians are pillars in the church upholding the truth, where did I lie?


Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


The same Ayo777 that you are quoting also said we are saved by grace. Wasn't it something u guys called a lie?


Someone asked you where is purgatory u couldn't talk.....u are the biggest liar preaching lies.


Just prove yourself and tel me where purgatory is in the bible.

Stop telling lies against us, our teachings are public knowledge. We are saved by grace. Yet as long as you are here on earth, you must cooperate with grace, that's what is called good works. "Work out your salvation in fear and trembling". Phill.2:12

DoctorAlien:


If everybody will pass through judgment, how come judgment was given unto the saints (Dan. 7:22)?

If everybody will go through judgment, how come the saints will judge the world and angels? (1 Cor. 6:2-3)

Yes "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment..." Heb.9:27 scripture is very clear there. In 1Cor3:13 St.paul made it clear that "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it...". Did you read that? St. Paul says "Every man". Even in Matt.25:31-46, is it not the righteous that will be at the right hand of the judgement throne? How can they not be judged? Going by your assumption, the people of Nineveh would not pass through judgement, queen of sheba will not pass through God's judgement, since according to Jesus, they will "rise in judgement against this generation" Matt.12 41-42. Please think again.

ayoku777:


I was typing a reply to your post and questions, when I thought to myself that, "How do I use the scriptures to change the mind of someone who believes his church is superior to the bible?" That was when I knew that my explanations and quoting of bible verses will be a futile endeavour. You need more of prayers. And I say this with all humility and sincere sense of concern for you.

Now; that being said, let me add.

Just because God in His grace used the Roman catholic church to compile the texts of the gospels and the epistles of the apostles into a single book doesn't make them an authority on the interpretation of the scriptures. For them to presume that would be a great self-delusion on their part.

God also used the pharisees, the sadducees and teachers of the law to painstakingly rewrite, compile and preserve the old testament texts of the law, the prophets and the psalm into scrolls. Yet that did not make them spiritual authorities on the interpretation of those texts.

Infact no one misinterpreted and wrongly used those scriptures more than the pharisees themselves, so much so that when Jesus, the very Messiah that was talked about in all their law and the prophets came, they rejected Him.

The same thing goes for the roman catholic church in many regards. Trying to make themselves authorities on the interpretation of the scriptures because God used them to compile it into a book is nothing short of self-delusion.

They also have misinterpreted and wrongly used the scriptures of truth, not to talk of adding human traditions and man-made philosophies and calling them church doctrine and even elevating their tradition above the written word (same thing Jesus rebuked the pharisees for -making the word of God of no effect through their traditions).

And when the roman catholic interpretations are challenged, they claim, we compiled the bible so we should know better. Seriously?

And when their claim can't even be found anywhere in the written word, they go overboard to say the catholic church is superior to the bible and so their claim stands. Say what?

I am someone that loves to debate with the use of the scriptures, quoting bible verses to buttress and emboss my arguments. But of what use would all my typing be to someone who believes and is fully convinced that his church is what defines truth and not the word of God? I would just be straining my thumb for nothing.

Honestly, it is prayers that can do the job of renewing the mind at this point, not scriptural debates that keep us going in circles.

Shalom!

You are all product of martin Luther's imagination.

You challenge catholic teachings..you think if the church had something to hide they would not remove it from the bible?

Today in the church we celebtare the Penecost. The holy spirit has alwayd guided the church in her teachings. To trust that from oral traditions and letters the church compiled the bible.

To turn back and say you cannot trust that same church's teaching because you cannot find that teaching is ridiculous at best. Even when it is purely there.

This was what made the church excommunicate marthin luther .and he went on to form the protestant faith and from then you people have never stopped splitting. Where you interperete bible the way it suits you.

The catholic church under the guidiance of the holy spirit is still waxing strong.

If you say you are a sola scriptura supporter. You better denounce the bible to. Because alot of oral traditions where included by the same catholic church in the bible. As it is a pure product of oral tradition and letters and epistles collected over the years.

The holy spirit contines to subsequently revela truths to the church as it promised.
You just joined martin luther the rebel. Who led you all on the path you are now.

Like it or not. We hold the truth to most faith in the bible. And there is no catholic teaching that is alien.. All are..i repeat ALL are included in the scripture.

So keep reading the bible we compiled for you under the guidance of the holy spirit. Keep reading the oral tradition included in it. And then keep doubting the teachings of the same church. It all makes sense. That is not to say we make things up..each and eveything tjr catholic church does has its biblical backing. And i will show you anyday anytime .

Read the part he says JUST BECAUSE GOD CHOSE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. Hahahah. Like God was rolling dice when he did. As that same God also promised through the guidiance of the holy spirit to lead that same church that according to you he "casually" just chose.

Keep vindicating us as the one true church. And keep accusing us of heresy. It all makes sense hahaa.

I AM JUST TIRED OF YOUR SOLA SCRIPTURA ASSERTION.
As it is BASELESS.
As we celebrate the pentecost. May the holy spirit continue to guide us in truth.
Happy Sunday! Cheers

analice107:

Maccabees are books written by a man called Maccabeus about 100BC. There are actually two. like Ist and 2nd. But they have no links with the characters or prohecies of the Bible. The Old Testament books didn't referenced them and vise versa.
It you read the regular Bible, you'd notice a sync between them. Like an invisible line stringing them together, but not with this Maccabeus books. He wasn't a prophet, he wasn't a priest, not shepherd, noting.
I really don't know.

Stop taking plenty. Martin Luther excluded it and other books from the protestant bible .
You should go and ask him why. As he is the founder of your protestant faith.

ayoku777:


Purgatory and praying through Mary or through saints etc are heresis. They are inconsistent with the truth revealed in the scriptures. One would need to give twisted interpretation to clear verses of the bible or smuggle in extra-scriptural books to justify those roman catholic doctrines and traditions.

Purgatory is not in the bible, neither is there anywhere in scripture we are admonished to solicit for the intercession of saints in heaven.

Shalom!

Intercessory Prayer of Saints
Rom 15:30 - join me by your prayers to God on my behalf
Col 4:3, 1Thess 5:25 - pray for us
2Thess 1:11 - we always pray for you
2Thess 3:1 - finally, brothers, pray for us
Eph 6:18-19 - making supplication for all the saints & for me
Tob 12:12 - angel presents Tobit & Sarah's prayer to God
Ps 148 - David calls upon angels
Zech 1:12 - angel intercedes for Jerusalem
Mk 12:25, Mt 22:30 - men in heaven are as the angels
Rev 5:8 - those in heaven offer prayers of the holy ones to God
Mk 12:26-27 - he is God of the living, not of the dead
Mk 9:4 - Jesus seen conversing with Elijah & Moses
Lk 9:31 - Elijah & Moses aware of earthly events
Rev 6:9-11 - martyrs under altar want earthly vindication
Heb 12:1 - we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses
Lk 16:19-30 - departed rich man intercedes for brothers
Rev 20:4 - saw the souls of those who had been beheaded
Wis 3:1-6 - the souls of the just are in the hand of God
2Macc 15:7-16 - the departed Onias & Jeremiah pray for the Jews
Jas 5:16 prayers of righteous man
1 Cor. 13:12 - I shall understand fully
1 John 4: 20-21 - whoever loves God must love his brother
1 Cor 12:21 - parts of Christ's Body cannot say to other parts, "I do not need you".

Go and ponder on those ones.
You protetsatnts should learn how to ask.

Martin luther just set you all on a spiral roll.
Enough verses for you. Seeing as you love them in excess

DoctorAlien:
The lies and fables of men are not profitable for doctrine.

Seeing as you also want enough verses. Ponder on these ones.
Purgatory

Mt 5:48 - be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect
Heb 12:14 - strive for that holiness without which cannot see God
Jam 3:2 - we all fall short in many respects
Rev 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven
Jam 1:14-15 - when sin reaches maturity gives birth to death
2Sam 12:13-14 - David, though forgiven, still punished for his sin
Mt 5:26 - you will not be released until paid last penny

Mt 12:32 - sin against Holy Spirit unforgiven in this age or next—where is the next age that sins can be forgiven? In Heaven there is no sin, in Hell there is no forgiveness.

Mt 12:36 - account for every idle word on judgment day
2Macc 12:44-46 - atoned for dead to free them from sin
1Cor 3:15 - suffer loss, but saved as through fire
1Pet 3:18-20; 4:6 - Jesus preached to disobedient spirits in prison
1Pet 4:6 The Gospel is read to the dead
2Tim 1:16-18 - Paul prays for dead friend Onesiphorus
1Cor 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people baptizing for the dead

Peace be with your spirit!

joey150:

Stop taking plenty. Martin Luther excluded it and other books from the protestant bible .
You should go and ask him why. As he is the founder of your protestant faith.

Joey If i start now, you would say am harassing you. lol. Was Matin Luther the deciding factor in the Council of Nacea which determined which book had divine revelations so should be added?
Was he even in the committee?
Guy, Have you read those books? I have them here as speak with you. I Have read those books sir, there's nothing revelational about them. Nothing Prophetic.

You said Jesus read those books, and i asked how you knew, How i know Jesus never read those books is, Neither He nor His Apostles quoted or made references to them. Read the Knew Testament, Jesus quoted free from the old testament books, and made references to Prophets and their prophecies. The man Maccabeus never prophesied any thing, no other Bible writer is similar to him. His writing are all about his war exploits.
Do you know the criteria used to select the books?

@joey150 may God continue to bless you for your efforts in teaching the faith and spreading the word

[quote author=joey150 post=45629765]This answer many questions.. A very wide range. Please do read. I got it off an online buddy of mine. Very enlightened and insightful guy.


"Since when did the bible became the only rule of authority ? Where did Jesus and His apostles say "sola scriptura" ? Which perverted fundamentalist bible version is your authority ? The Canon of Scriptures was defined, codified and canonized by the Catholic Church in the 4th century which is nowhere instructed by Christ and His apostles ! The Holy Bible itself is unbiblical because it came from the Sacred Tradition of the church not from the unbiblical sola scriptura. Now why are you using the Holy Bible that the Catholic Church decided, closed and published ? The Trinity, Nicene Creed, The Latin Vulgate (Holy Bible) / Canon of Scriptures, Immaculate Conception, Assumption were all defined by the Catholic Church to fight and dispel heresies because they are all ancient beliefs held by the early church (fathers).

2 THESSALONIANS 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle. Intercession / Mediation / Praying to saints and angels are all in scripture and Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church. We pray to Mary because she is not only a saint which Christ shares His humanity but she is also the Ark of the New Testament. Saints are in heaven that can pray for us, just like human beings.


REVELATION 1:4 – this verse shows that angels (here, the seven spirits) give grace and peace. Because grace and peace only come from God, the angels are acting as mediators for God. [ John to the seven churches which are in Asia. Grace be unto you and peace from him that is, and that was, and that is to come, and from the seven spirits which are before his throne, ] REVELATION 8:3-5 3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. 5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. [ The martyred saints in heaven cry out in a loud voice to God to avenge their blood “on those who dwell upon the earth.” These are “imprecatory prayers,” which are pleas for God’s judgment (see similar prayers in Psalm 35:1; 59:1-17; 139:19; Jer. 11:20; 15:15; 18:19; Zech.1:12-13). This means that the saints in heaven are praying for those on earth, and God answers their prayers (Rev. 8:1-5). We, therefore, ask for their intercession and protection. ]

REVELATION 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. [ The prayers of the saints (on heaven and earth) are presented to God by the angels and saints in heaven. This shows that the saints intercede on our behalf before God, and it also demonstrates that our prayers on earth are united with their prayers in heaven. (The “24 elders” are said to refer to the people of God – perhaps the 12 tribes and 12 apostles - and the “four living creatures” are said to refer to the angels.) ] [ And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.] REVELATION 6:9-10 Souls of martyrs are praying before God: "Holy faithful Master, how much longer will you wait before you pass sentence and take vengeance for our death on the inhabitants of the earth." . If the martyrs were dead, how can they pray like this before God? During the Transfiguration, Moses and Elias were talking with Jesus as seen by the apostles. [ Rev. 6:9-11 – Rev. 8:3-4 – in heaven an angel mingles incense with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne of God, and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven. ]

MATTHEW 17:3 How can they speak to Jesus if they are dead or just sleeping? Several verses support the doctrine of praying for the dead like the story of Lazarus and the rich man who even asked God to allow him to visit his five brethren on earth who were still alive. After death, we are alive before God. TOBIT 12:12 Angel presents Tobit and Sarah's prayer to God." thank you alray for this!

Cuts across various answers from sola scriptura to saints and intercession.
You use the same bible the catholics gave you..yet you accuse us of heresy. Isnt that plain stupidity?! A bible that is a product of oral tradition.

I am a proud catholic and i will defend my faith whole heartedly. Even if that be the only good i do on earth. I will defend God's own church!

Where are my bible verse lovers..this is a little bit off point. But the beginning addresses the bible only syndrome here. And the other parts are just wholesome knowledge.

Analice107
Laribari
Ayoku777

Come and tell me why you accepted our bible?? Because it should be heresy according to you too.

Syncan this is a good read too.[/person

I will need you to clarify this point "OUR BIBLE", Which one is your Bible?

The rant up there is the rant of a disobedient person who is bent of going his own way.

This is what the Bible says about the matter the man above raised, but of course, he wont accept
it.
John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did. If they should be all recorded one by one [in detail], I suppose that even the world itself could not contain (have room for) the books that would be written.

Revelation 22:18-20 I [personally solemnly] warn everyone who listens to the statements of the prophecy [the predictions and the consolations and admonitions pertaining to them] in this book: If anyone shall add anything to them, God will add and lay upon him the plagues (the afflictions and the calamities) that are recorded and described in this book. And if anyone cancels or takes away from the statements of the book of this prophecy [these predictions relating to Christ’s kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions or warnings pertaining to them], God will cancel and take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the city of holiness (purity and hallowedness), which are described and promised in this book. He Who gives this warning and affirms and testifies to these things says, Yes (it is true). [Surely] I am coming quickly (swiftly, speedily). Amen (so let it be)! Yes, come, Lord Jesus!
Anyone who goes off this track, is on his own. Am a christian, a follower of the teachings of Christ only.

analice107:

Joey If i start now, you would say am harassing you. lol. Was Matin Luther the deciding factor in the Council of Nacea which determined which book had divine revelations so should be added?
Was he even in the committee?
Guy, Have you read those books? I have them here as speak with you. I Have read those books sir, there's nothing revelational about them. Nothing Prophetic.

You said Jesus read those books, and i asked how you knew, How i know Jesus never read those books is, Neither He nor His Apostles quoted or made references to them. Read the Knew Testament, Jesus quoted free from the old testament books, and made references to Prophets and their prophecies. The man Maccabeus never prophesied any thing, no other Bible writer is similar to him. His writing are all about his war exploits.
Do you know the criteria used to select the books?

which council of nacea are you talking about?
Maccabees was deemed fit to be in the scriptures by the catholic council. Which then put together the books of the bible.

After the 1st split..instigated by martin luther he decided that those books be removed in subsequent protestant bible.. It was all his doing. Thats why you should relate your problems to him. As he started the division we have now..

Its a long story ana..i do not want to go into that..

I mentioned something about Jesus talking about prison on the sermon on the mount. In this same post where i mentioned maccabees.
You haven't responded. I expect you to oppose it as you always do.
But what i really want to hear is your reason as usual.

Happy Sunday! And happy pentecost too.

[quote author=analice107 post=45640735][/quote] stop quoting that revelation verse. I have educated even ayoku777 about it.

That verse explicitly refers to only revelation. It explicitly mentioned BOOK.

even at that.the bible didnt exist then as a book that we have it as today. So it could have never have referred to the bible. Dont you see IN THIS BOOK.. Meaning in thr book of revelations. Una don turn am to bible sharply.nawa. bible that didnt exist then

That refers to JUST the book of revelations.
Pleae stop twisting things here.

Cheers!

Patheos:
@joey150 may God continue to bless you for your efforts in teaching the faith and spreading the word

Thank you very much brother.
May God continue to strengthen and renew our faith.
.Happy pentecost sunday.

[quote author=analice107 post=45640735][/quote]

I will talk soon, just closed from church.