Silver-gilt mummy mask of Queen Malagaye, from her tomb at Nuri pyramids northern sudan. about 600-560 BCE.

@ ababda, Going back to your section on the "Black Madonnas" I have always wondered why they are mainly found in such places like Poland. I was once told that it was the soot and dirt that had discoloured the oils that the painters used at that time.The facial features on most of the paintings and statues are very Caucasian.

What's your take on the matter?

i will give you a clue madlady, and that is my take on it. this clue will come from several pages on this trend. here is one clue.


throughout nile valley history nubians or cushites in both sudan and egypt played a very dominant role as priest in various temples in both countries.

aegis of isis found at the kawa temple in sudan.

another clue madlady,

Queen Aqaluqa as Isis Nursing



This bronze statuette of a queen, with the Solar-Hathor crown, as goddess Isis nursing, presumably depicts Queen Aqaluqa.



From the general style, we know that this statuette is from the 25th Dynasty. The queen is not clearly identifiable beyond appearing of Nubian descent. The child, however, exhibits very distinctive features which are specific of the iconography of King Taharqa of Dynasty 25 as an adult. It should be no surprise that the child resembles the king as an adult in such statuettes, as they were of necessity commissioned long after the child had grown up. If the child shown here is indeed Taharqa, then the mother is Queen Aqaluqa, wife of King Piankhi. Her cartouche is known from the Temple of Taharqa at Gebel Barqal, where she is shown behind her son.
Shawabti figures of King Taharqa

Sudan (Nuri), Dynasty 25, reign of Taharka, 690-664 B.C.

madlady: those three items are the clues of the reasons why we see many black madonnas in europe. well, that is my opinion. i want you to figure it out. remember it was many cultural diffusion that occured in antiquity, so this should not really surprise people.

@ababda. I was told by an art historian that the "black Madonnas" were not in the original state, that they had blackend over time because of dirt and soot. He pointed out that most had Caucasian features, which he said  only happens now  that we blacks have, his words, " have interbred". This was some years ago, so being in my late teens, who was I to disagree much  less argue this point.

I personally believe that some of the black Madonnas look just like lots of us mixed race blacks, ok the fact that many are found in Poland and such places did baffle me.

I NEVER believed the angle that they were not originally painted black, not only  were paintings black but also statues, how could they all have got into that state unless that was how the artists intended them to be.

exactly madlady, i could maybe see two or three black madonnas, but there are over 300 in various european countries.

if you study the history of kush and egypt, it becomes clear the reason of the existence of these many black madonnas in some european countries. nevertheless, according to christian dogma images were not to be use in worship. however, since it is very hard for people to bury old practices,so they christianize isis and horus and made them mary and jeus to make it acceptable to the pagan population. Nubians in egypt and sudan were still worshipping isis during the earlier part of the christian period, yet they later converted to christianity around the 5th or 6th century AD, i think. i have the whole article of the history of chritian nubia on this trend. it was the ancient nubian or kushite priest that was responsible of exporting their religious concepts to europe. Observe the roman frescoes, the people in the white tunic is obviously of nubian or cushite extraction livin in rome. it is obvious that the black madonna is isis in disguise, and these nubians priest of isis exported their religious tenets to the greco-roman world, however their ideas of the black isis later became incorporated into christianity, hence the origin of the black madonna statues. however, that is my theory, yet many historians of antiquity also believe this to be true. the origin of the black madonna is of the nile valley.

http://www.sacredsites.com/europe/switzerland/einsiedeln.html

web site trying to explain the probable origin of the black madonnas in europe

another frescoe of the two nubian priest at the isis temple in pompei rome. isis herculaneum frescoe in rome. again notice the two priest is obviously not of european extraction.

 


@ababada, Woh, that  site really Say's what i feel, why would not the WHOLE image be blackened if that was  really  the reason for the BLACK MADONNAS.

I am very weary to say the following, but let me have a bash at it.

I think you are 100% correct, Christianity plagiarised a lot of religions, a good deal of the practices and teachings come from other worship.

I am not really surprised that the practices, images and other things are a throw-back to other cultures, after all, Africa is the cradle, that's what I believe anyway.

yeah, it is somewhat shocking madlady, but those of the people that help formulate the religous beliefs system in our world. the roman frescoes tells it all, it was the nubians by default that was responsible for the introduction of what later will became known as the black madonna, which is the nubian or cushite isis in disguise. also, even the name candace is actually comes from nubia. actually the name is written kdke, but when translated to other languages kdke become candace, which is a title similar to pharaoh or caesar. candace means queen mother. the same queen mother concept that is practiced by many so called african tribes,

africans must realize their origins is in the nile valley, mainly in parts of upper egypt and northern sudan. the monuments is definitely a testament of that, and i only posted a few, there are many that not online, also looking at the diversity of the habitants in sudan its becomes quite obvious where you true origins of your culture lie before you became tribes.

burial customs
facial scarification-still practice by hausa, yorubas, and few older nubians in northern sudan
concept of queen mother.- still the concept is prevalent among the ashantis in ghana.
the evil eye concept.
the most controversial which is practice by many african tribes, upper egyptian, northern sudanese, ethiopians both muslims and christians, somalis, eriteans, what is politely called in northern sudan and upper egypt pharaoh circumcision or in the west female circumcision.

@ababda, Very enlightening. I am certain you will open my eyes to more very important facts. I shall now follow in silence.

KEEP DOING THIS OUTSTANDING THREAD.

madlady, i don't know if you live in london or not. however, i do understand that the british museum have a huge amount of artifacts from sudan ranging from statues or maybe mummies. so, if you have time i suggest you visit the museum to see the artifacts in person. the "isis aegis" that i have shown on this trend is actually housed in the british museum, so is the statue of the lion of the soleb temple is actually housed there. so, if you have time take a trip to the museum in london, because they have many nubian or sudanese ancient artifacts that is housed their.

@ ababda, Yes I do live in London. Would you like me to take photos of some of the artifacts and show them? Not sure they allow pictures to be taken.

I have been to the British Museum on a number of occasions, sadly that was during my middle school days, so we total wasted our time on other things

you know what madlady, the greatest gift is by you going and viewing our ancient past. however,if you can provide pictures from the museum that will be good as well

if you go to the british museum, i understand they to hold a good deal of artifacts of the nok, yoruba, and benin culture. however, i think these items are classified as african, and is in a separate room from sudan and egypt. i checked out the aegis of isis, indeed it is housed in the british museum in room 65, i think. here is the link, and if you have time to go have a good time, because i heard they have artifacts from many cultures across the world. here is the link.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/highlights/highlight_objects/aes/a/aegis_of_isis.aspx

ababda:

For now, I'll put the question aside. Will catch-up after Thanksgiving.

You are doing good! Keep it up

this is the most controversial, because it ignites arguements from both eurocentrist and afro centrist alike, when it comes to the racial compostion of the ancient egyptians. the 25th dynasty is very well known as a kushite dynasty, but was there any others prior to the 25th dynasty from the second catacts inside egypt itself? of course there were. we must remember the cushites that lived in pharaonic times in egypt did not considered themselves the same as the cushites that live beyond the 2 cataracts.there were sometimes differences from a cushite pharaoh that ruled egypt with the cushites that live in what is now sudan. mainly because of trade and other resources, which sometimes lead to war between the two kingdoms. as i mention before racially kushitic people live in both side of the border both ancient and present, in egypt proper in upper egypt between luxor, and the border of sudan. those areas in egypt is dominated both ancient and modern by people that is quite indistinguishable from most northern sudanese, some ethiopians, eritean, and somalis, but you do have a few people that look similar to bantus or west african element as well. it is quite obvious that the middle kingdom old kingdom, and new kingdom was dominated by cushites race as well. here is one examples.

amenemhet I here created a bogus prophecy to legitmatize his rule, because it is a possibility that this pharaoh eliminated or killed his opponents to legitimatize his ascension to the throne. here is the the prophecy of Neferti.


, Then a king will come from the South,
Ameny the justified, my name,
Son of a woman of Ta-Seti, child of Upper Egypt,
He will take the white crown,
he willjoin the Two Mighty Ones (the two crowns)

Asiatics will fall to his sword,
Libyans will fall to his flame,
Rebels to his wrath, traitors to his might,
As the serpent on his brow subdues the rebels for him,
One will build the Walls-of-the-Ruler,
To bar Asiatics from entering Egypt


here the word ta seti usually the other name of nubia or cushite. so amenemhet I was a nubian or cushites himself and he went to war against the nubians that live beyond the second cataracts.

here is the link to the website of the pharaoh amenemhet, and the meaning of the word ta seti which means land of the bow, which usually denote the nubia in egypt or cushite area or in the the first nome in modern aswan egypt.
http://www.historykb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/ancient/550/The-artifacts-speak-Ancient-Qustul-Ta-Seti-Egypt-s-Origin
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/amenemhet1.htm

ababda:

Silver-gilt mummy mask of Queen Malagaye, from her tomb at Nuri pyramids northern sudan. about 600-560 BCE.

Oh man, I got up to study and here I am glued to your thread. Ababda, who built the Pyramids? You see, each time I see the word pyramid, the Pharoahs and Egyptians come to mind. Seeing that Sudan is next to Egypt, do you think it's a possibility that the Egyptians built the Pyramids in Sudan and other countries near Egypt?

to epi:[tr]Ababda, who built the Pyramids? You see, each time I see the word pyramid, the Pharoahs and Egyptians come to mind. Seeing that Sudan is next to Egypt, do you think it's a possibility that the Egyptians built the Pyramids in Sudan and other countries near Egypt[/tr]?



that is a interesting question, indeed sudan and egypt is right next to each other, also they are the only countries in the africa and the near east that builted pyramids, and they ruled each other in different times in their shared histories. since you have what scholars term ethnic cushites that live in both side of the border in egypt and sudan ,so it was the ethnic cushites or nubians that builted the pyramids in what is now sudan. however, in egypt case it was the both asiatics and cushites the builted the pyramids their as well, because many of the blocks of the pyramids of Giza actually comes from the aswan area, which is the center of cushite or nubian culture in upper egypt proper, and it is a possibility that the ruling pharaohs of the old kingdom may be cushitic extraction as well. some scholars made this observation due to the the statuary of huni, which has a so called cushite cast, which led some scholars to believe that the old kingdom pharaohs were of nubian or cushitic extraction as well. however, this is a very debatable and contentious issue among scholars that study the history of egypt and nubia. cush means in hebrew darkskinned or hot, however many people today consider themselves the descendants of cushites and they called themselves cushites even today, oromos in ethiopia, somalis, and the beja in egypt, sudan, and eritea considered themselves ethnic cushites as well as many upper egyptians and northern sudanese today. we are the children of cush. i hope this answer your question epi.

here is the face of huni. was he a ethnic cushites? it is a strong possibility that he may have been. however he rule egypt during the 3 dynasty which is classified as the old kingdoms, he was the father of the next pharaoh khufu, and khufu was the pharaoh that constructed the great pyramid of Giza today, in which today people around the world associate with egypt.

i don't know what temple this item come from, but it is now housed in the musem in khartoum sudan, it is possibiltiy it came from either the soleb temple or semna, i have to do some research to find out. however it is house in national musem in sudan.

^^^ taking a wild guess. How about the Temple of Horus at Buhen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buhen

ababda:

that is a interesting question, indeed sudan and egypt is right next to each other, also they are the only countries in the africa and the near east that builted pyramids, and they ruled each other in different times in their shared histories. since you have what scholars term ethnic cushites that live in both side of the border in egypt and sudan ,so it was the ethnic cushites or nubians that builted the pyramids in what is now sudan. however, in egypt case it was the both asiatics and cushites the builted the pyramids their as well, because many of the blocks of the pyramids of Giza actually comes from the aswan area, which is the center of cushite or nubian culture in upper egypt proper, and it is a possibility that the ruling pharaohs of the old kingdom may be cushitic extraction as well. some scholars made this observation due to the the statuary of huni, which has a so called cushite cast, which led some scholars to believe that the old kingdom pharaohs were of nubian or cushitic extraction as well. however, this is a very debatable and contentious issue among scholars that study the history of egypt and nubia. cush means in hebrew darkskinned or hot, however many people today consider themselves the descendants of cushites and they called themselves cushites even today, oromos in ethiopia, somalis, and the beja in egypt, sudan, and eritea considered themselves ethnic cushites as well as many upper egyptians and northern sudanese today. we are the children of cush. i hope this answer your question epi.

Thanks and good nite

interesting epi, that could be a possibility.

madlady and epi, i am kind of divided or conflicted by one issue. should i include the ruins of libya, algeria, tunisa, or maybe morocco in this trend. the reason why i am divided is because most of the ruins there were builted by the Romans, hence not indigeous to the african continent. tell me you opinion about this matter, please. thanks ababda

the cartouche of sudanese pharaoh anlamani, he ruled sudan from 620bc-600bc, this was found at the pyramid complex in northern sudan at nuri, and it is now housed in the british musem.

@ababda, I have been to Morocco twice, I never venture far (Tangairs) because I travelled on my own.

I found the culture to be very African in some ways, this could have been because I stayed in a predominately Muslim section, the pratices seem very similar to my own,lovely people, very Arabic in appearance, not as mixed or black looking as further into Africa.

Why not touch on it briefly.

statues of the nok culture in northern nigeria. this is from museums and private collection alike. the statues is dated between 500bc to 300 bc.