Sister trini_girl,

You are starting to sound preachy. Please stop, the holy scriptures forbid it !

TV , you've been following my posts Why?

TV01:

Sister trini_girl,

You are starting to sound preachy. Please stop, the holy scriptures forbid it !

what are you going on about now? so you are still stalking me I see.

TV01:

Sister trini_girl,
You are starting to sound preachy. Please stop, the holy scriptures forbid it !

I support 1000% - please Nne trini, preach am well-well as you're doing to Seun!! Don't let anybody hold you back o jare! Who knows?? Perhaps a woman will convert him! Amen and Amen!!

trini_girl:

Seun , you have come again with your attack on God oooo , what did the scriptures ever do to u now , haba!
See my submission to "Does God Exist" thread. We need to discuss this issue you are having with seeing God as a mean dictator.

trini_girl:

what are you going on about now? so you are still stalking me I see.

Usurping authority, pre-marital sex, bellicose behaviour, unrelenting attention seeking! Truth is you can still repent and be forgiven of those.

But now you're being boring and that really is an unforgivable sin. Like the irish say "wise up and catch yourself on"

shahan:

I support 1000% - please Nne trini, preach am well-well as you're doing to Seun!! Don't let anybody hold you back o jare! Who knows?? Perhaps a woman will convert him! Amen and Amen!!

lol!! never mind TV ,  I don't understand his fascination with my posts ,  he condemns and praises me at the same time.

I'm confused. 

shahan:

I support 1000% - please Nne trini, preach am well-well as you're doing to Seun!! Don't let anybody hold you back o jare! Who knows?? Perhaps a woman will convert him! Amen and Amen!!

Shahan, presumably you are making the distinction between preaching & teaching/taking authority. If so, no problemo. If not, you know I have to withstand you.

God bless

TV01:

Usurping authority, pre-marital sex, bellicose behaviour, unrelenting attention seeking! Truth is you can still repent and be forgiven of those.

But now you're being boring and that really is an unforgivable sin. Like the irish say "wise up and catch yourself on"

TV,

Am I not free to express my views now? Come on ,  I don't have to conform to your standards for me ,  please.

I expressed my views honestly, and I don't see how you interpret that as attention seeking ,

Shall I put on a black head tie with a long dress and sit quietly in the back seat of a church? Will that make you happy?

Nonsense!

Being boring is a sin according to what , TV01 chapter 4 verse 9?

TV,

I thought the scripture forbade me to teach, but I can go ahead and preach. You keep contradicting yourself.

So which is it ,  can I preach or teach? Make up your fickle mind.

Lol, TV01. . . my posts are still clear, I pressume. Women can and are encouraged to preach; they are also encouraged to teach according to the settings in God's Word - as in the case of Tit. 2:3-5.

The issue many of us may not have grasp is that the Bible does not recommend women teaching in the church. That would be an abuse of the recommendations in God's Word.

shahan:

Lol, TV01. . . my posts are still clear, I pressume. Women can and are encouraged to preach; they are also encouraged to teach according to the settings in God's Word - as in the case of Tit. 2:3-5.

The issue many of us may not have grasp is that the Bible does not recommend women teaching in the church. That would be an abuse of the recommendations in God's Word.

No Probs Shahan. I totally agree with the distinctions you've made.

But like I said, the order is set in the home and follows on into a full church setting.
All things being equal, women are not to assume authority in either. The Biblical injunctions naturally follow through, restricting eldership (same as pastor) to men.

Are we agreed on this? I realise some of the more strident sisters do not .

Thanks for your responses.

God bless

TV ,  why do you always have to allude to me  nowww.

So far according to your description of me, I am a belligerent, bellicose, aggressive, passionate, masculine  woman spewing forth scatological teaching!

You're a walking Thesaurus!  You must have scored full points on your SATs (if you're american that is)

But why, why are you so hard on me?    Just stop reading my posts that's all 

trini_girl:

TV ,  why do you always have to allude to me  nowww.

I don't believ I was, I said "sisters" plural. But even if I was, doubtless you are loving the attention  .

trini_girl:

So far according to your description of me, I am a belligerent, bellicose, aggressive, passionate, masculine  woman spewing for scatological teaching!

I don't think I've been unfair. Harsh maybe. But I'm sure there's a lot more to you than I've seen here. And I'm equally sure it's mostly good.

trini_girl:

You're a walking Thesaurus!  You must have scored full points on your SATs (if you're american that is)

Far from it. I speak just the one language fluently, so if I don't have a decent grasp of that, what would be my excuse? As for my being American, please Sister, my burdens are already heavy enough 

trini_girl:

But why, why are you so hard on me?    Just stop reading my posts that's all 

It's called tough love my sister. You know I have your best interests at heart .

Later.

God bless

TV,

I'm a little thrown off that you think that I look for attention. I have been here for some time now, contributing to threads, as you know.

However it's only since I actually raised a thread myself that you seem to believe I love attention?

It makes me think that you prefer women to be observers and lowly contributors, rather than leaders and trend setters.

However, to set the record straight. I do not look for attention. Attention finds me

I appreciate your posts, you're one of the few that I will actually take seriously here.

However, I think the sooner you admit you're taken with me, the better it will be for u!

what kind of question is this i thought it ia about the calling and not some male and female shiit if u is called by God or chosen by God who will stop u i don't think it matters what d Bleep u look like to preach the word of God

This kind of post shows how much this person would know about how God would want us to conduct our lives

Isn't Paul the one that wrote that women are supposed to be meek and quiet in church, to be seen but not heard?

shahan, inas much as you've quoted the bible quite extensively, I beg to disagree with this. So were women created to cook and clean sicne you talk about differentiated roles in the home and at the church?

Shahan has quoted scripture to back himself. Why dont you do the same?

@ Shahan

Rubbish!

When Paul said what he preached there he preaches in every church he was referring to the Gospel of Christ , geez!

If God did not sanction it, then we would know by the fruit. There are many women in ministry that God has blessed and prospered. I have personally sat under the teaching of women and the presence of God filled that place and it was awesome. What about mighty women of God like Marilyn Hickey, Joyce Mayers , and what of men of God whose wives are actively involved as co pastors. What of women even in the old testament who were Prophetesses?

Please cover yourself, your ignorance is showing.

Why resort to insults? especially when you have no scripture to back yourself.

Personally, I take my spiritual instructions from the word of God; NOT what someone does with his/her life.

Shahan, your scriptural imputs are all right. what am not agreeing with is your inference that if women preach they are

usurp authority or teach.

Women that are ordained as pastors are not in anyway usurping authority - it is God's gift that is not partial to male or female. The gifts of the spirit and the ministerial gifts are not based on men or women.

If a women is blessed with the gift of teaching or prophesying and she is called or ordained, so must be silent because she is a woman? I agree with TV01, our God is a God of order but he is not a male chauvinist.

Peace.

You are right about the fruit of the spirit not being based on whether or not one is male/female.

Do you have scripture to contradict the point about women not being teachers?

[b]The debate rages.

The argument by trini-girl (and to a lesser degree ufanIma) while quite plausible on the face of it, is one that I find deeply flawed, for the following reasons.

The conclusion is that the scripture is not valid for us today. redundant. Pray tell, how many other portions of scripture were written with others or unique situations in mind? And are therefore also redundant and not applicable to us in this age? The NT is addressed to believers in all places for all time until the end.

It also suggests that one cannot understand scripture without an understanding of the cultural setting of the time it was written. It lends credence to the “Bible needs updating for our times” and “contextual interpretation” schools of thought, which have been largely responsible for the denial of the truth of the scriptures. Please don’t go there.

It is the same argument used by the gay-homosexual lobby in reference to the scriptures relating to same-sex relationships. It the thin end of the wedge. Again, please don’t.

Feminist arguments have no place in the body of Christ, no matter how PC they may sound.[/b]

I concur

Easy,

Take it easy on the bold my friend,  you sound like your quarrelling with everybody.

If you want to quote simply click on "Insert Quote" lower down the page and it will be automatically selected

Seun:

Isn't Paul the one that wrote that women are supposed to be meek and quiet in church, to be seen but not heard?

Something like that, but that is not for today's church. I'm sure TV will disagree and give you the appropriate scripture to back it, which I would as well , but I have to get ready for work now ,

trini_girl:

Easy,

Take it easy on the bold my friend,  you sound like your quarrelling with everybody.

If you want to quote simply click on "Insert Quote" lower down the page and it will be automatically selected

You sounded like the one quarrelling with everyone before. 

I have read further to realise that you eventually calmed down.

God bless

trini_girl dear, the problem is not primarily with the male chauvinists proudly talking rubbish on this thread.

The problem is with the male chauvinists that wrote the bible. Those are the big culprits here!

Seun, I take you're just being sarcastic here

well, I hope so

@Shahan and all,

I have followed this discourse with keen interest. Please I need your honest biblical answers to these questions as it will help in understanding the mind of God better on this issue and not just the letter of the Word:

1. Should women sing in churches? and
2. Should they prophesy in churches?

I'm waiting for your responses.

Bless y'all.

Seun:

Isn't Paul the one that wrote that women are supposed to be meek and quiet in church, to be seen but not heard?

Oga Seun, lol. . . You've managed to throw in some kulikuli in the whole thing.

Paul indeed wrote that women are not to be speakers in church (you missed the setting) - and the Bible recommends that both men and women should be meek (Matt. 5:5 & 11:29). It was rather the apostle Peter (not Paul) who penned these words:

"But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price" - I Pet. 3:4.

I suppose men would do as well to observe this glorious word in that verse (some men are so talkative, haa!!   ).

Anyway, for those who have thought the calling or anointing settles the matter regardless of any distinction whatsoever, please I beg them to interpret this verse for me:

Rom. 12:4 - "For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office."

To further help the discussion, women can do more than preaching the Gospel and teaching other women about core family truths. If it's about being heard in church, they can also pray and prophesy (I Cor. 11:5); and also worship vocally as much as the men in church (I Pet. 2:5 & 9). Women can also be heard on important matters on church policies or decisions (Acts 6:1-6. . . yes, the women certainly participated actively on the whole event of selecting the seven men). I could offer several very active roles women are encouraged to participate in church. However, the foregoing is to disabuse anyone's mind from the notion that the Bible was promoting chauvinism. The previous points I've been trying to make still stand - and that is, the Word of God does not recommend women to assume the role of teaching in the church.

@Analytical, I hope that answers your question.

Bless up y'all.  

=============================================
_{PS. TJX: I don't know how you got my email addy, but if you read this, I want you to know for certain that I'm not offended by your email and I love you in Jesus! I still continue to pray for you. May God really bless you, TJX.}

@ Shahan,

If I understand you very well, a woman can prophesy in church and she can also sing in church.  In other words she can deliver God's message to edify or instruct in church (which is to prophesy) and she can also use the avenue of songs to teach God's word?

Analytical:

@ Shahan,

If I understand you very well, a woman can prophesy in church and she can also sing in church.

How do you understand these verses, please:

I Cor 11:5 - "But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven."

I Pet 2:5-9 >> "Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light."

Analytical:

In other words she can deliver God's message to edify or instruct in church (which is to prophesy) and she can also use the avenue of songs to teach God's word?

Please don't put words in my mouth - I didn't state what you're misreading. Once and again, I have adduced texts to show that the Word does not recommend women teaching in the church. Please refer and let me know what exactly you'd like me to address.

Cheers.

Very well then, I'm heading somewhere.  Please be patient.

A woman, from the scriptures you've cited and many more, can and should prophesy, sing or teach in church.  The scriptures you've been using in 1 Cor. 14:34 and 1 Tim. 2:11-12 should be balanced with other scriptures so as not to teach out of context.  This is how doctrines and principles of Christ are established.

Let's examine them properly.

1 Cor. 14:34

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."

If you take this as it is, then women should not even say anything in church, not by prophesying nor singing!  But that will be contrary to what Paul was addressing in that scripture.  If you read a little downward, you will read further that

37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment.

38 But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.

39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.

40 But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.

Note verse 40 very well.  That is the crux of the matter Paul was addressing in much of his epistle to the Corinthians, and by extension any such church with their characteristics.  The church (group of churches actually) at Corinth was a very carnal church.  They manifest the gifts of the spirit but they had issues!  Promiscuity, rowdiness, disorderliness, selfisheness, disobedience to their husbands and higher authority, etc.  Some posts addressed some already.  It is in that church that everyone wants to speak in tongues or prophesy at the same time!  People were sleeping with their father's wife and all still come to prophesy in Corinth Church!

To set things in order, Paul as the Apostle had to reprimand them, especially their rowdiness and disorderliness even in church, especially among their women.

1 Tim. 2:11-12 (Young Literal Translation)

11 Let a woman in quietness learn in all subjection,

12 and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness,

13 for Adam was first formed, then Eve,

14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman, having been deceived, into transgression came,

15 and she shall be saved through the child-bearing, if they remain in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety.

This particular reference (as made clear in this translation) was not even talking about worship in church!  It's a home setting, which is also in sync with the rest of the scriptures about meekness and submission.  Note the immediate refrence to Adam and Eve.  Verse 15 especially is quite revealing, talking about the curse that came upon the woman in child bearing as a result of the fall in the Garden of Eden.  Note my emphasis on the 'they' that is the husband and the wife.

One thing of note is Paul's distinction when he speaks and when the Lord speaks.  In this very instance, it's very clear who was speaking- Paul, notice his use of 'I' in verse 12.  Some translations put it as 'In my opinion'.

Are you still with me?

@Analytical,

Many thanks for your well-reasoned rejoinder, and you've made effective use of some study material in your outline - which is commendable. However, I think the sense is lost if one drives the issue too for beyond what the texts actually convey.

First, I'm very much with you on certain lines; not necessarily so in your summation. here's how:

Analytical:

A woman, from the scriptures you've cited and many more, can and should prophesy and sing in church.  The scriptures you've been using in 1 Cor. 14:34 and 1 Tim. 2:11-12 should be balanced with other scriptures so as not to teach out of context.  This is how doctrines and principles of Christ are established.

Concur.

Analytical:

Let's examine them properly.

1 Cor. 14:34

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."

If you take this as it is, then women should not even say anything in church, not by prophesying nor singing!  But that will be contrary to what Paul was addressing in that scripture.

Glad you know I didn't advocate that women should be mutes in church.

Analytical:

If you read a little downward, you will read further that

39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.
40 But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.

Note verse 40 very well.  That is the crux of the matter Paul was addressing in much of his epistle to the Corinthians, and by extension any such church with their characteristics.

So far, so good.

Analytical:

The church (group of churches actually) at Corinth was a very carnal church.  They manifest the gifts of the spirit but they had issues!

But there again, what church on earth hasn't had issues?

Analytical:

Promiscuity, rowdiness, disorderliness, selfisheness, disobedience to their husbands and higher authority, etc.  Some posts addressed some already.  It is in that church that everyone wants to speak in tongues or prophesy at the same time!  People were sleeping with their father's wife and all still come to prophesy in Corinth Church!

Other churches have done worse, sad to say. So, I'd rather we slow down pointing accusing fingers at them and look a bit closer to what's on ground among ourselves in this age and current of social and spiritual concourse.

Analytical:

To set things in order, Paul as the Apostle had to reprimand them, especially their rowdiness and disorderliness even in church, especially among their women.

That doesn't take away from the fact of the gist of that epistle. What was applicable to the Corinthians is also applicable anywhere and anytim else.

Analytical:

1 Tim. 2:11-12 (Young Literal Translation)

12 and a woman I do not suffer to teach, nor to rule a husband, but to be in quietness,

This particular reference (as made clear in this translation) was not even talking about worship in church!

Two things:
(a) Young failed to convey the sense of that verse, so I do not pander to his "literal translation". The word translated "husband" in YLT is the word used for man in a generic sense; and this is obvious from the fact that if Paul was merely addressing "husbands", he would have been admonishing "wives" in that verse;

(b) it's simply above the turf to suppose that Paul was not addressing issues in the church. Please read chapter 1 of I Timothy and see that the apostle's scope was far more than mere domestic issues. If you take just those two verses alone without considering their context, then the whole scope is lost and what we have is only a narrow view left.

Analytical:

It's a home setting, which is also in sync with the rest of the scriptures about meekness and submission.

Sad to say, it's wider than mere home setting as explained above. The rest of the Scriptures actually bear out the context as being far wider than the home.

Analytical:

Note the immediate refrence to Adam and Eve. Verse 15 especially is quite revealing, talking about the curse that came upon the woman in child bearing as a result of the fall in the Garden of Eden.

But that simply misses the point, bro. The immediate reference in dealing with matters of church setting as mentioned in I Cor. 11 also alludes to the creation scenario of Adam and Eve (see verses 8-12).

Analytical:

Note my emphasis on the 'they' that is the husband and the wife.

Wrong again as explained earlier. YLT misses the point of I tim. 2:12, and if you go by that, you'll keep reading a poor rendering of the divine afflatus.

Analytical:

One thing of note is Paul's distinction when he speaks and when the Lord speaks.  In this very instance, it's very clear who was speaking- Paul, notice his use of 'I' in verse 12.  Some translations put it as 'In my opinion'.

"In my opinion" is not a translation because you won't find that in the Greek texts - it only reveals the political leanings of the liberal interpreters. However, Paul uses the first person singular pronoun (I) in a number of contexts; and as far as used in the cases under review, he most definitely was convenying the very mind of the Lord Jesus Christ. The reason for my persuasion about this is because -

(i) in II Cor. 13:3 he verily confirms that his speaking was the mind of the Lord: "Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you."

(ii) even in the text that you quoted earlier, it is obvious that Paul was conveying the mind of the Lord: "If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment." (I Cor. 14:37 - see, that it is not Paul's personal opinion, but a commandment from Jesus? How did you miss this point, dear bro??)

Analytical:

Are you still with me?

Very grateful for your rejoinder - blessed by it all the way. Ta-ra!!  

Thanks Shahan for the study so far, so that we can all learn. Please note I'm not pointing accusing fingers at the Corinthina church, I'm only stating from what I studied of them.

True, 1 Tim 2 11-12 can be extended to other areas but it's primarily talking about a woman and a man in the sense of a wife's submission to her husband, hence the Adam and Eve example and reference to child-bearing.

Now this is where I am really going.

The Holy Ghost, who is the Chief Administrator of the Church of the New Testament, is no respecter of persons, whether Jew nor Greek, male nor female.

Galatians 3:
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Long before the advent of the church, He prophesied about the church through Joel

Joel 2:
28 “It will come about after this that I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions.

29 “Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

This started manifesting at the day of Pentecost, when they all gathered, both men and women in the Upper Room at Jerusalem, awaiting the promise of the Lord.  

Acts 1
13 When they had entered the city, they went up to the upper room where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James.

14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.

Note that both men and women were gathered and the Holy Ghost came upon all of them and Peter had to stand up to explain what was happening by referring them to Joel:

Acts 2
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

14 But Peter, taking his stand with the eleven, raised his voice and declared to them: “Men of Judea and all you who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you and give heed to my words.

15 “For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day;

16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel:

17 ‘AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,’ God says, etc

It is the same Holy Ghost that gave us ministry gifts in the church as in apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.  He does not discriminate.  He does as He wills to all persons, male and female.

Now, if He is the One at work, why will He give some women as Teachers but will not allow them to teach, whether in or outside the church?  Why will he give some as Pastors but will prevent them from functioning in that same office?  Or are there not women who He gave as Evangelists?  If He so anoints some women as He wills, who are we to frustrate the grace of God upon their lives?  If the Holy Ghost can anoint them to sing and prophesy, why won’t He anoint them also to teach or pastor in a church?

I cor 12
4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.

6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.

7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;

9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,

10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.

11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it.

28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?

30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

Ephesians 4
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,

12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Finally, my brethren, Our Lord Jesus, the author and finisher or our faith, gave a commandment to all, both male and female, at Galilee after the resurrection, to go preach to all nations and make them disciples (verse 19) and teach the disciples made (verse 20).  This charge is to all that believe, both men and women!

Matt. 28
19 “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

God bless us all in His service, both men and women!

Analytical:

Finally, my brethren, Our Lord Jesus, the author and finisher or our faith, gave a commandment to all, both male and female, at Galilee after the resurrection, to go preach to all nations and make them disciples (verse 19) and teach the disciples made (verse 20).  This charge is to all that believe, both men and women!

Yes, but Christ later decided to change his mind. It was much later after his resurrection that he gave Apostle Paul that instruction that women should keep their mouth silent in churches. Or were those things Paul wrote down in the Bible not from God?? Was the Apostle Paul not inspired by God??