but when are we going to get your answer? others have answered.

aletheia:

bla, bla and more bla from you. Half-truths couched in tendentious sentences.
Like I said earlier if you are going to base your answers on the bible, at least get it right? How can you critique a book that you repeatedly demonstrate abysmal knowledge of? God did not address all the people living in Israel (which would be the geographic location) through a public speech. He addressed the people assembled at Mount Sinai, which is outside the borders of Israel. If you cannot truthfully present facts you disagree with, how can we be such that you are being honest in all your replies?

This was not directed at me but there are quite a number of places where yahweh addressed the people of Israel through a public speech. Yahweh is said to have addressed the jews at mount Sinai so what difference does it make?

Jdg 1:1 After the death of Joshua, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Who will be the first to go up and fight for us against the Canaanites?"

Jdg 1:2 The LORD answered, "Judah is to go; I have given the land into their hands."

mazaje:

This was not directed at me but there are quite a number of places where [size=18pt]yahweh addressed the people of Israel through a public speech[/size]. Yahweh is said to have addressed the jews at mount Sinai so what difference does it make?

Jdg 1:1 After the death of Joshua, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Who will be the first to go up and fight for us against the Canaanites?"

Jdg 1:2 The LORD answered, "Judah is to go; I have given the land into their hands."

Again this is NOT true. Judges 1:1-2 does NOT in any way make the claim that God was addressing ALL of Israel in a public speech. This is the same old revisionist rewriting of the bible to force an atheist point of view.

davidylan:

Again this is NOT true. Judges 1:1-2 does NOT in any way make the claim that God was addressing ALL of Israel in a public speech. This is the same old revisionist rewriting of the bible to force an atheist point of view.

Same old worn out apologies. . . .

Jdg 1:1 After the death of Joshua, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Who will be the first to go up and fight for us against the Canaanites?"

Jdg 1:2 The LORD answered, "Judah is to go; I have given the land into their hands."

Its is very clear from the text that the Israelites asked their god in a group and he answered them. . . .since you were there when the event happened I will like you to tell us how he answered them if not through a public address. . . .

mazaje:

Same old worn out apologies. . . .

Jdg 1:1 After the death of Joshua, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Who will be the first to go up and fight for us against the Canaanites?"

Jdg 1:2 The LORD answered, "Judah is to go; I have given the land into their hands."

Its is very clear from the text that the Israelites asked their god in a group and he answered them. . . .since you were there when the event happened I will like you to tell us how he answered them if not through a public address. . . . 

Same old stupid conclusions . . . lets use a few examples from the same chapter in Judges . . .

Judges 1: 2 And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand. 3 And Judah said unto Simeon his brother, Come up with me into my lot, that we may fight against the Canaanites; and I likewise will go with thee into thy lot. So Simeon went with him.

On face value, or reasoning like Mazaje . . . it would seem God was specifically requesting Judah (as an individual) to go fight the Canaanites. Judah then requests the help of his brother Simeon. The problem though is that by this time, both Judah and Simeon had long died! It would also be meaningless to assume that 2 men alone went off to fight an entire army of Canaanites!

Infact rather than a request to a person called Judah . . . God was asking the men of the lineage of Judah to war and they in turn requested the company of the tribe of Simeon.

This is just an example to show that some things in the bible are allegorical and are not to be taken literarily. God spoke to the Jews primarily through prophets and Judges.

davidylan:

This is just an example to show that some things in the bible are allegorical and are not to be taken literarily. God spoke to the Jews primarily through prophets and Judges.

What if god is himself allegorical? or the whole bible is? that may explain why we shouldn't take them seriously!

sauer:

What if god is himself allegorical? or the whole bible is? that may explain why we shouldn't take them seriously!

A part of the bible is allegorical but a part of it is also real. As regards your conclusion . . . i say to each his own.

davidylan:

Same old stupid conclusions . . . lets use a few examples from the same chapter in Judges . . .

Judges 1: 2 And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand. 3 And Judah said unto Simeon his brother, Come up with me into my lot, that we may fight against the Canaanites; and I likewise will go with thee into thy lot. So Simeon went with him.

On face value, or reasoning like Mazaje . . . it would seem God was specifically requesting Judah (as an individual) to go fight the Canaanites. Judah then requests the help of his brother Simeon. The problem though is that by this time, both Judah and Simeon had long died! It would also be meaningless to assume that 2 men alone went off to fight an entire army of Canaanites!

See you are adding to the text and saying what it does NOT say in other to rationalize the story. Where does it say in the text that Judah and Simeon were long dead? What do you mean by it would be meaningless to assume that two people alone fought an army of canaanites, I thought samson killed lost of men with only a piece of bone ? The text says that they went and killed the others and they had victory over them because yahweh had already promised them victory. It doesnt talk about them being long dead does it?

Jdg 1:3 And Judah said unto Simeon his brother, Come up with me into my lot, that we may fight against the Canaanites; and I likewise will go with thee into thy lot. So Simeon went with him.
Jdg 1:4 And Judah went up; and the LORD delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand: and they slew of them in Bezek ten thousand men.

Infact rather than a request to a person called Judah . . . God was asking the men of the lineage of Judah to war and they in turn requested the company of the tribe of Simeon.

This supports what I said that Yahweh addressed them publicly. . . .

This is just an example to show that some things in the bible are allegorical and are not to be taken literarily. God spoke to the Jews primarily through prophets and Judges.

You choose to read it as an allegory another christian might not read it as that. By the way what is the basis for accepting a story as an allegory? The text does not give any indication as to that. The same bible also said that Yahweh addressed the Jews together at mount Sinai through a public address. . . .

mazaje:

See you are adding to the text and saying what it does NOT say in other to rationalize the story. Where does it say in the text that Judah and Simeon were long dead? What do you mean by it would be meaningless to assume that two people alone fought an army of canaanites, I thought samson killed lost of men with only a piece of bone ? The text says that they went and killed the others and they had victory over them because yahweh had already promised them victory. It doesnt talk about them being long dead does it?

Jdg 1:3 And Judah said unto Simeon his brother, Come up with me into my lot, that we may fight against the Canaanites; and I likewise will go with thee into thy lot. So Simeon went with him.
Jdg 1:4 And Judah went up; and the LORD delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand: and they slew of them in Bezek ten thousand men.

This supports what I said that Yahweh addressed them publicly. . . .

You choose to read it as an allegory another christian might not read it as that. By the way what is the basis for accepting a story as an allegory? The text does not give any indication as to that. The same bible also said that Yahweh addressed the Jews together at mount Sinai through a public address. . . .  

Considering that judea was the son of Jacob. . .is it not logical to deduce that the judea in the passage above was not an individual?

noetic15:

Considering that judea was the son of Jacob. . .is it not logical to deduce that the judea in the passage above was not an individual?

Exactly the point I was making. . .Why all the fuse. . here is the text again. . .

Jdg 1:1 After the death of Joshua, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Who will be the first to go up and fight for us against the Canaanites?"

Jdg 1:2 The LORD answered, "Judah is to go; I have given the land into their hands."

mazaje:

See you are adding to the text and saying what it does NOT say in other to rationalize the story. Where does it say in the text that Judah and Simeon were long dead? What do you mean by it would be meaningless to assume that two people alone fought an army of canaanites, I thought samson killed lost of men with only a piece of bone ? The text says that they went and killed the others and they had victory over them because yahweh had already promised them victory. It doesnt talk about them being long dead does it?

Oh dear . . . where does one begin? Judah and Simeon were 2 of the 12 sons of Jacob . . . they were part of the original Israelites who went down into Egypt to live with Joseph. After Joseph's death (we assume Judah and Simeon who were far older than Joseph would have died by now), the Isrealites became slaves to Egypt for over 450 yrs . . . add another 40 yrs in the wilderness before Joshua took over as the leader of Israel.

How is it possible that Judah and Simeon (who would have been over 500 yrs old by now!) were the 2 whom God was sending to battle the Canaanites? Seriously do these folks READ THE BIBLE BEFORE THEY EJACULATE THEIR RIDICULOUS COMMENTS?

Lets read further down Judges 1 . . .

8 Now the children of Judah had fought against Jerusalem, and had taken it, and smitten it with the edge of the sword, and set the city on fire. 9 And afterward the children of Judah went down to fight against the Canaanites, that dwelt in the mountain, and in the south, and in the valley.

TWICE in verses 8 and 9, the author of Judges tries to clarify that it was NOT Judah the individual doing the fighting but his descendants. Further down we also see lands captured by the descendants of Jacob, brothers to Judah and Simeon.

Verse 22 - House of Joseph
Verse 30 - Zebulun
Verse 31 - Asher . . .

No seriously i give up. This has got to be a case of either intellectual incompetence or deliberate dishonesty.

mazaje:

This supports what I said that Yahweh addressed them publicly. . . .

No it DOES NOT.

mazaje:

You choose to read it as an allegory another christian might not read it as that. By the way what is the basis for accepting a story as an allegory? The text does not give any indication as to that. The same bible also said that Yahweh addressed the Jews together at mount Sinai through a public address. . . .  

It is clearly an allegory, even a fool knows Judah could not have lived for over 500 yrs and gone to war single-handedly to drive out the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

As regards your pointless nonsense i put in highlights . . . please read Exodus 19 rather than making a fool of yourself.

mazaje:

Exactly the point I was making. . .Why all the fuse. . here is the text again. . .

Jdg 1:1 After the death of Joshua, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Who will be the first to go up and fight for us against the Canaanites?"

Jdg 1:2 The LORD answered, "Judah is to go; I have given the land into their hands."

which was?

mazaje:

Exactly the point I was making. . .Why all the fuse. . here is the text again. . .

Jdg 1:1 After the death of Joshua, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Who will be the first to go up and fight for us against the Canaanites?"

Jdg 1:2 The LORD answered, "Judah is to go; I have given the land into their hands."

two things. . . . . . the judea being described there was the entire tribe. . .like u agree.
what I dont understand is how u came about the conclusion that they were addressed publicly by God?

mazaje:

This was not directed at me but there are quite a number of places where yahweh addressed the people of Israel through a public speech. Yahweh is said to have addressed the jews at mount Sinai so what difference does it make?

Jdg 1:1 After the death of Joshua, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Who will be the first to go up and fight for us against the Canaanites?"

Jdg 1:2 The LORD answered, "Judah is to go; I have given the land into their hands."

Mazaje, there is nothing in this passage that suggests that God addressed the people openly.
what then would be the function of the priest and judges?

davidylan:

Oh dear . . . where does one begin? Judah and Simeon were 2 of the 12 sons of Jacob . . . they were part of the original Israelites who went down into Egypt to live with Joseph. After Joseph's death (we assume Judah and Simeon who were far older than Joseph would have died by now), the Isrealites became slaves to Egypt for over 450 yrs . . . add another 40 yrs in the wilderness before Joshua took over as the leader of Israel.

How is it possible that Judah and Simeon (who would have been over 500 yrs old by now!) were the 2 whom God was sending to battle the Canaanites? Seriously do these folks READ THE BIBLE BEFORE THEY EJACULATE THEIR RIDICULOUS COMMENTS?

Lets read further down Judges 1 . . .

8 Now the children of Judah had fought against Jerusalem, and had taken it, and smitten it with the edge of the sword, and set the city on fire. 9 And afterward the children of Judah went down to fight against the Canaanites, that dwelt in the mountain, and in the south, and in the valley.

TWICE in verses 8 and 9, the author of Judges tries to clarify that it was NOT Judah the individual doing the fighting but his descendants. Further down we also see lands captured by the descendants of Jacob, brothers to Judah and Simeon.

Verse 22 - House of Joseph
Verse 30 - Zebulun
Verse 31 - Asher . . .

No seriously i give up. This has got to be a case of either intellectual incompetence or deliberate dishonesty.

No it DOES NOT.

It is clearly an allegory, even a fool knows Judah could not have lived for over 500 yrs and gone to war single-handedly to drive out the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

As regards your pointless nonsense i put in highlights . . . please read Exodus 19 rather than making a fool of yourself.

I was just trying to make a simple point. Here is a clearer translation of the passage. . .

Jdg 1:1 After Joshua died, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Which tribe should attack the Canaanites first?"
Jdg 1:2 The LORD answered, "Judah, for I have given them victory over the land."
Jdg 1:3 The leaders of Judah said to their relatives from the tribe of Simeon, "Join with us to fight against the Canaanites living in the territory allotted to us. Then we will help you conquer your territory." So the men of Simeon went with Judah.
Jdg 1:4 When the men of Judah attacked, the LORD gave them victory over the Canaanites and Perizzites, and they killed ten thousand enemy warriors at the town of Bezek.

This translation from the NLT settles it. . . .The people of Israel asked Yahweh which tribe to go and fight against the Canaanites and he told them that the tribe of Judah was to go. . . .The people asked him according to the text and he answered them. . . How then did he answer them if not through a public address. . .The passages does not say a priest or a prophet was involved. . . .It says the people asked and yahweh answered. . . .

davidylan:

(we assume Judah and Simeon who were far older than Joseph would have died by now)

Me didn't know you could assume so easily like that. Why don't we then assume that the author of Judah was boozing while writing that passage, that can very well account for much of the unclarity, can't it?

noetic15:

Mazaje, there is nothing in this passage that suggests that God addressed the people openly.
what then would be the function of the priest and judges?

Is that so? Did The bible God not know about the function of the priest when he addressed the public through a public address during the baptism of Jesus?

look guys there is no point in all this bible quoting and analysis.

as self professesd atheists, sebi you sha do not believe in the bible. you do not have enough knowledge about it, so the best you can do is muddle everything up and down and then feel good about having scored cheap directionless goals. please leave that side as you are not equipped to understand.

get back to the point!!!!

you say logic and premise are the foundations of your own orientations abi? please prove to us that you are omniscient, and that all knowledge is convergent in your persons. that is the only time that you can say that there is no god.

as quoted by Aletheia, i repeat again.  An atheist, to be consistently assured that his belief is accurate, must also claim to be omniscient, for there always exists the possibility of the existence of God outside his knowledge".

prove that me your omniscience! that all knowledge and ability resides in you and i will know that you can know that there is no god. in the absence of you being able to do that, all your logic is just baseless jabber.

mazaje:

I was just trying to make a simple point. Here is a clearer translation of the passage. . .

Jdg 1:1 After Joshua died, the Israelites asked the LORD, "Which tribe should attack the Canaanites first?"
Jdg 1:2 The LORD answered, "Judah, for I have given them victory over the land."
Jdg 1:3 The leaders of Judah said to their relatives from the tribe of Simeon, "Join with us to fight against the Canaanites living in the territory allotted to us. Then we will help you conquer your territory." So the men of Simeon went with Judah.
Jdg 1:4 When the men of Judah attacked, the LORD gave them victory over the Canaanites and Perizzites, and they killed ten thousand enemy warriors at the town of Bezek.

This translation from the NLT settles it. . . .The people of Israel asked Yahweh which tribe to go and fight against the Canaanites and he told them that the tribe of Judah was to go. . . .The people asked him according to the text and he answered them. . . How then did he answer them if not through a public address. . .The passages does not say a priest or a prophet was involved. . . .It says the people asked and yahweh answered. . . .

If you went back and read Exodus 19 which you kept putting up as an example of God speaking publicly to Israel on Mt Sinai, you would realise that even though God gathered all the israelites together on the mount, He never once directly speaks to them but used Moses throughout. So your question basically answers itself.

The passage does not say a priest or a prophet was involved . . . just the same way it says Judah and Simeon were sent to war even though we know it was their descendants not them in particular as they had long died.

Reading the bible is a lot more than cherry-picking texts and interpreting them to suit your agenda.

sauer:

Me didn't know you could assume so easily like that. Why don't we then assume that the author of Judah was boozing while writing that passage, that can very well account for much of the unclarity, can't it?

this is stupid. We KNOW for a fact that Judah and Simeon were born way before Joseph. Leah had already had Judah as at the time Rachel was still unable to conceive. Judah was Jacob's 4th son while Simeon was number 2 . . . their births are recorded in Gen 29.

When we get to Gen 30, we see Rachel (Joseph's mother) lamenting at her own inability to bear children. Joseph isnt born until Gen 30:24

Please try reading the bible at least before coming here.

mazaje:

Is that so? Did The bible God not know about the function of the priest when he addressed the public through a public address during the baptism of Jesus?

this is now embarrassing. . .the least u can do is to at least read the bible before u attempt to analyse it.

are u still in doubt as to the divinity of Jesus? Jesus came to put an end to that priestly era. , . , and here u are expecting that same priest to be an intermediary to Jesus.
haba!!!. . . . .

davidylan et all

please get back on course.

all this is nonsense. it is not the bible or christianity on trial here . it is the concept of the existence of God.

cut the bible jabber!!!!!

bimbusky:

look guys there is no point in all this bible quoting and analysis.

as self professesd atheists, sebi you sha do not believe in the bible. you do not have enough knowledge about it, so the best you can do is muddle everything up and down and then feel good about having scored cheap directionless goals. please leave that side as you are not equipped to understand.

get back to the point!!!!

you say logic and premise are the foundations of your own orientations abi? please prove to us that you are omniscient, and that all knowledge is convergent in your persons. that is the only time that you can say that there is no god.

as quoted by Aletheia, i repeat again.  An atheist, to be consistently assured that his belief is accurate, must also claim to be omniscient, for there always exists the possibility of the existence of God outside his knowledge".

prove that me your omniscience! that all knowledge and ability resides in you and i will know that you can know that there is no god. in the absence of you being able to do that, all your logic is just baseless jabber.

It's important you guys give yourself some head. how about: "A theist, to be consistently assured that his belief is accurate, must also claim to be omniscient, for there always exists the possibility of the non-existence of God outside his knowledge".
Alas! no one is accurate or can claim omniscience, so why dodge under this? At best we can posit from evidence available then and now; and the result from such positing clearly indicates that God is more likely not to exist, and most likely never interferes with the daily affairs of humans (at least as far as recorded history goes, and of course outside of the spurious book called a bible)

as long as you people believe in some god or some jesus, you debase the very concept of morality. To me, (and am talking of y'all here), it appears you are very cool with the idea of god because it stops you from committing evil acts, or at least gives you consolation (pity!) in some life hereafter; in addition, so you can remain happy in spite of Nigeria being this bad and all terrible. Whereas, you neglect the truth that Nigeria can only become better when people begin to take actions and not just pray to some god while folding their arms, well, I digress.
You question the truth behind morality. I ask again: If you didn't have the man with the big fat beard in the sky watching your every move, what would you have become alone? A serial killer? A rapist? A ritualist?
Why then do you cling so much to this god?
Note: It pays to be good, because good is good, and not because big brother is watching,

oh Sauer,

your reciprocation of my quote make no sense at all as believers dont say they can prove that there is God. they say they believe there is God.

Atheists say do not say they so not believe he does not exist, they say they have emperical basis upon which to deduce he does not exist as if it is a scientific fact.

that is why my quote became relevant. check for my earlier post so you can understand the basis.

sauer:


You question the truth behind morality. I ask again: If you didn't have the man with the big fat beard in the sky watching your every move, what would you have become alone? A serial killer? A rapist? A ritualist?
Why then do you cling so much to this god?
Note: It pays to be good, because good is good, and not because big brother is watching,

what is morality in the absence of God? our morals will be at best distorted and self serving. machieavellian and grotesque!! why wont i cheat if i can get away it in the absence of the morality and goodness that god puts in my heart? the fact is that there would be no standdards upon which to measure any actions and i will with my little knowledge rationalise all my choices away!!!! 

note: not me as a person, but that is how the natural human will behave. Darwins theory supports this.

bimbusky:

oh Sauer,

your reciprocation of my quote make no sense at all as believers dont say they can prove that there is God. they say they believe there is God.

Atheists say do not say they so not believe he does not exist, they say they have emperical basis upon which to deduce he does not exist as if it is a scientific fact.

that is why my quote became relevant. check for my earlier post so you can understand the basis.

Belief doesn't do much to the enlightened senses. You can very well believe anything, even if there is no basis for such beliefs. You really have just shot yourself in the foot! Y'all make no sense at all when you say you believe. I know a guy who believes that every day at 2pm a man comes out of the sun to Berlin, walks about naked and fcuks as many bitches as he can, and then leaves at exactly 9pm
So?
Believe whatever! The question is "does it fit"? I bet you can't answer that question. Give me a good reason why you are a christian (which I suppose you are) and have these cheap christian beliefs outside of being born into a christian family or associating with christians from birth.

fu(k beliefs. Get real!

//

sauer:

Belief doesn't do much to the enlightened senses. You can very well believe anything, even if there is no basis for such beliefs. You really have just shot yourself in the foot! Y'all make no sense at all when you say you believe. I know a guy who believes that every day at 2pm a man comes out of the sun to Berlin, walks about naked and fcuks as many bitches as he can, and then leaves at exactly 9pm  
So?
Believe whatever! The question is "does it fit"? I bet you can't answer that question. Give me a good reason why you are a christian (which I suppose you are) and have these cheap christian beliefs outside of being born into a christian family or associating with christians from birth.

fu(k beliefs. Get real!

the problen Sauer is that belief equals faith, and faith doesnt claim to be intelligent. in fact it claims to be stupid. but stupid doent always equate to wrong or false. it at best will be berated to 'abitrary' or 'non scientific'! but there are many phenomena in the world that cannot be explained away by science. so? science doesnt answer all the questions of life evidently. u but atheists in the bid to look intelligent, claim that it does.

sure a man can believe anything. i believe there exists an almighty god. my conjecture is based on faith. can you prove that wrong with the logic of science? you are the ones that cling to the deification of science so the onus is on you to prove my faith wrong. the point is you cannot, except you are omniscient.

are u?

tired!!!! cant continue tonight. will resume tomorrow.

@ kay 17

yes He is a loving God who cared so much for you that He allowed His only begotten Son to die, JUST FOR YOU. He cares so much for mankind, believe it or not, it doesn't change the fact!

you wanna rationalize and analyze His love and reasons why this and that happens
my dear you will keep meeting brick wall after brick wall cuz your human mind cannot discern spiritual matters.

and besides, if you dont believe there is a God, why the question 'where was God during the Rwandan Genocide'

you talk about the Israelites and the red sea, hmmm, did you think about the fact that it was after 40 years of slavery in Egypt

God has his own time table, which is in no way similar to ours, unless we are willing to LET HIM LEAD That's all!

sauer:

Belief doesn't do much to the enlightened senses. You can very well believe anything, even if there is no basis for such beliefs. You really have just shot yourself in the foot! Y'all make no sense at all when you say you believe. I know a guy who believes that every day at 2pm a man comes out of the sun to Berlin, walks about naked and fcuks as many bitches as he can, and then leaves at exactly 9pm
So?
Believe whatever! The question is "does it fit"? I bet you can't answer that question. Give me a good reason why you are a christian (which I suppose you are) and have these cheap christian beliefs outside of being born into a christian family or associating with christians from birth.

fu(k beliefs. Get real!

no one really has to respond to your "questions" here, given your rude attitude and brutish demeanor.

why not waka pass and find another thread.

Personally, if I were to reply this post of yours, you'd be bursting your bloomers at my responses, believe me.