Plz share this view with me. I was discussing with a friend and he said John is Elija and quoted Mt 11:14. He said Elija was kept somewhere till he was reborn to be John the baptist. It is true? If it is true, is it not reincarnation? Plz share your opinions with me because I don't believe in reincarnation.

@luckyCO,

Rest your heart - Christianity has no verse in support of re-incarnation. The only One who was incarnated is the Lord Jesus Christ, for the express purpose of giving His life in the flesh in order to redeem us:

The Incarnation: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth." (John 1:14).

The Purpose: "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit" (1 Pet. 3:18 ).

One verse in the Bible that guarantees there is no reincarnation is Heb. 9:27 >> "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." There's no coming back this side of existence, just as the rich man had requested but was denied his wish in Luke 16:27-31.

Now, John the Baptist and Elijah.

When Jesus affirmed about John that "this is Elias, which was for to come"_{Matt.11:14, KJV} - He was not inferring that John had reincarnated as Elijah. He was using a very familiar Jewish expression that pointed out the reality of a thing in proverbial language. In effect, He was saying that John was the one who fulfilled the prophesy of Elijah's coming in that context.

How are we to understand Elijah's coming as a forerunner of Christ? Not a literal fulfillment of the man Elijah appearing; but that the one who was to come would appear among the people of Israel 'in the spirit and power of Elijah':

"And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord" (Luke 1:17).

John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy of Elijah's coming in the context discussed by Christ to His disciples, but He was not making any inference to the concept of reincarnation.

shahan

Thanks so much for your reply. I really thank God for your knowledge and I appreciate it alot. It is a perfect solution to my question. Remain blessed in Jesus Name.

Many blessings to you.

shahan:

One verse in the Bible that guarantees there is no reincarnation is Heb. 9:27 >> "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment." There's no coming back this side of existence, just as the rich man had requested but was denied his wish in Luke 16:27-31.

While I fully accept that Christianity does not teach re-incarnation in any form. I am not convinced that this is the verse that teaches that.

The almost universally accepted understanding of this verse leaves questions in my mind. And I guess now is as good a time as any to ask  .

In 2 Kings (ch 13 I think, sorry posting ad-hoc), a dead man fell into Elisha's tomb and was revived. Paul, Peter and the Lord Himself all raised people from the dead. Remember lazarus?

So pray tell somebody, if it is "apponted unto men once to die then judgement", do we have (at least) four people who died more than once? were/will be judged twice? Or are still walking the earth?

I believe the scriptures are perfect, innerrant, infallible and immutable. So could someone please help breach this gap in my understanding or provide an alternative explanation  .

Thanks & God bless

@TV01,

Notice my phraseology: "One verse in the Bible that guarantees there is no reincarnation is Heb. 9:27" - I didn't say that is the only verse in the Bible that guarantees there is no reincarnation.

Now the text you might have been alluding to:

II Kings 13:21
"And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet."

First, this does not indicate reincarnation, as you well know; for reincarnation and rising from the dead are not the same thing. The former speaks of an idea that a dead person is re-birthed as a baby and assumes another personality. That is totally antithetical to a rising from the dead, where people never lose their identity.

The case of Hebrews 9:27 is a summing up of stated divine judgement that men will face when the Judge sits expressly for that purpose. It does not suppose that men who rise from the dead as in the afore-mentioned miracles, will not be judged; rather, it affirms that all will stand before God to give an accounting of their lives on earth - at that Day.

The strength os this is that a man being miraculously raised from the dead comes in his own personality and identity - not as in the case of reincarnation into someone else's personality. On that Day, we can be sure that John the Baptist will stand distinguished from Elijah the prophet; as well everyone else. No one will stand before God in that day with multiple identities of reincarnation.

shahan:

@TV01,

Notice my phraseology: "One verse in the Bible that guarantees there is no reincarnation is Heb. 9:27" - I didn't say that is the only verse in the Bible that guarantees there is no reincarnation.

Now the text you might have been alluding to:

II Kings 13:21
"And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet."

First, this does not indicate reincarnation, as you well know; for reincarnation and rising from the dead are not the same thing. The former speaks of an idea that a dead person is re-birthed as a baby and assumes another personality. That is totally antithetical to a rising from the dead, where people never lose their identity.

The case of Hebrews 9:27 is a summing up of stated divine judgement that men will face when the Judge sits expressly for that purpose. It does not suppose that men who rise from the dead as in the afore-mentioned miracles, will not be judged; rather, it affirms that all will stand before God to give an accounting of their lives on earth - at that Day.

The strength os this is that a man being miraculously raised from the dead comes in his own personality and identity - not as in the case of reincarnation into someone else's personality. On that Day, we can be sure that John the Baptist will stand distinguished from Elijah the prophet; as well everyone else. No one will stand before God in that day with multiple identities of reincarnation.

Erudite post shahan, and thank you.

But I thought I clearly stated,  the question was not about re-incarnation. I am settled on that.

The question is the interpretation of Hebrews  Chapter 9 verse 27.
It clearly says "it is given unto men once to die". And almost universally interpreted to mean that the sequence is death then judgment.

But as I mentioned, there are numerous cases of people being revived (not re-incarnated), in the Bible. That says to me either the rendition is wrong or the generally accepted interpretation is incorrect.

Now back to my question;
If the verse simply means "it is given to men to die once and then judgement", as most interprete it, how do you explain Lazarus et al being raised from the dead?

Thanks

God bless

TV01,

Many thanks for the insightful enquiries. However, let me clear a few issues:

1. I agree with yours about reincarnation not taught in the Bible.

2. The rendering of Heb. 9:27 is not wrong, as is given in most translations and versions: "And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

3. The fact that people have been raised from the dead does not conflict with the verse above. It rather points out the following: (a) it is the common lot of (appointed unto) men to experience death at least once; (b) judgement does not take place immediately upon death: rather, "after this" - after the common lot of men has run its course - at the end of it all, then the judgement takes place.

Let me expatiate:

(a) the common lot of men to experience death at least once:
This does not stretch the idea that all men must die at least once; for in I Cor. 15:51-52 we are given the mystery that some will be alive and not have experienced death when the Lord Jesus Christ returns. The construct of Heb. 9:27 is a general sense of what is common to all men; and that at the last, when all things would have run their course, then the judgement takes place.

(b) the judgement does not take place immediate upon death:
Notice that it is a specific judgement here referenced - "the judgement". Of course, we know that this occurs only at the end of the age when Jesus returns for expressly that purpose. We understand this from the fact that verse 27 illustrates verse 28; as if to say, "Just as men die once, so Christ died once" - to strengthen the fact that both the judgement of men (at the end of the age) and the sacrifice of Christ for salvation occur once without the hint of repetition.

I hope this helps and I've tried to understand your enquiry.

Cheers.

The questions from TV01 and your reply have raised some questions in my mind.

shahan:


3. The fact that people have been raised from the dead does not conflict with the verse above. It rather points out the following: (a) it is the common lot of (appointed unto) men to experience death at least once; (b) judgement does not take place immediately upon death: rather, "after this" - after the common lot of men has run its course - at the end of it all, then the judgement takes place.

Let me expatiate:

(a) the common lot of men to experience death at least once:
This does not stretch the idea that all men must die at least once; for in I Cor. 15:51-52 we are given the mystery that some will be alive and not have experienced death when the Lord Jesus Christ returns. The construct of Heb. 9:27 is a general sense of what is common to all men; and that at the last, when all things would have run their course, then the judgement takes place.

When u say men must die at least once (i.e. possibly twice) it gives credence to those who believe in Ghosts. More so when you use the phrase when all things would have run their course. Can you give a reply to the question by TV01 that cuts out the possibility of Ghosts ( or like one thread a few months ago said, dead people paying bus fares)

Back again,

shahan:

2. The rendering of Heb. 9:27 is not wrong, as is given in most translations and versions:

I never said it was categorically wrong, I said it was possibly rendered wrong or the interpretation is incorrect. That is, if it's not incorrectly rendered. could this verse be better or differently expounded. You appear to be certain that both the rendering and interpretation are correct, right?

shahan:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment."

The appointment to die is once and after this the judgement. It could have said finally permanently ultimately or even severally. It does not, it say's once. A one time occurence. And it's emphatic in stating the occurence/event as once.

shahan:

3. The fact that people have been raised from the dead does not conflict with the verse above. It rather points out the following: (a) it is the common lot of (appointed unto) men to experience death at least once; (b) judgement does not take place immediately upon death: rather, "after this" - after the common lot of men has run its course - at the end of it all, then the judgement takes place.

I find this explanation a bit of a stretch. Are you emphatically saying that is the best interpretation of this verse? Or that no other is plausible/possible? King David said, "I go the way of all the earth". Death is fully expounded on in the Scripture, both OT & NT. Why the need to emphasise the "once" in this verse, which bringss into question other verses and accounts of Biblical events?

shahan:

(a) the common lot of men to experience death at least once:
This does not stretch the idea that all men must die at least once; for in I Cor. 15:51-52 we are given the mystery that some will be alive and not have experienced death when the Lord Jesus Christ returns. The construct of Heb. 9:27 is a general sense of what is common to all men; and that at the last, when all things would have run their course, then the judgement takes place.

I am not infering that it says all men must die at least once, it doesn't say that. Scripture plainly teaches that there will be some alive at His coming. What it clearly says is that it is appointed for men to die once. And how can it be common to all men, if not all die?

shahan:

(b) the judgement does not take place immediate upon death:
Notice that it is a specific judgement here referenced - "the judgement". Of course, we know that this occurs only at the end of the age when Jesus returns for expressly that purpose. We understand this from the fact that verse 27 illustrates verse 28; as if to say, "Just as men die once, so Christ died once" - to strengthen the fact that both the judgement of men (at the end of the age) and the sacrifice of Christ for salvation occur once without the hint of repetition.

True, Christ died the once, but some men died more than once, so again, again, this could be stretching it. Neither am I questioning the timing of the judgement, understanding it to be as it is rendered, sometime after death, and said death is appointed to take place once. There is nothing ambiguous about this verse. Or anything that suggests it requires added non-contextual comment.

So again, is everyone satisfied that both rendering and generally accepted interpretation are spot on? is there no suggestion that there may be an alternative or deeper interpretation of this verse in lieu of any change to it's rendering? Anybody?

Let's keep talking.

God bless

According to one article about Ghost( I mean somebody that has been already died and being buried ), they are demon using the image of the person to decieve people to believe contrary to the teachings of God that their is re-incarnation. Satan(Demon) uses people who saved him or the family of people who is serving him to implement and achieve this purpose. But I don't know how true it is because it is not written in the bible.

As for the article, that Ghost is not the real person but the face of that person that was assumed by one of the demons to counter and disturb to believe in the Adiolatry. The article further explained that once the observes this type of thing and went to Juju-man, the Juju-man will came and beg(Chain) the demon (Already planned) to leave and the demon will inturn possess all the members of that family except those  who are spiritually string before accepting to go.

The Artcle Conclusion:

Ghost appear with this two purposes;

1. To decieve people to believe that their is something like re-incarnation
2. To possess people who have accepted that with the help of using satan to drive a satan.
3. To frustrate that (family or the person  who invited the juju-man) with the essence that they or he will never forget about Idolatry. Which means juju-man will be their solutions all the time.

What is ur oppion on the article?

@lafile,

No vex . . . the delay was due to some connection problems.

lafile:

The questions from TV01 and your reply have raised some questions in my mind.
When u say men must die at least once (i.e. possibly twice) it gives credence to those who believe in Ghosts.

1. "it is the common lot of (appointed unto) men to experience death at least once"
Physical death is the common experience of everyman - that is what is meant by the common lot - appointed unto men to experience death at least once. It does not mean that no one can experience physical death twice - for Lazarus who was raised from the dead later died. The expression is a general understanding of what men experience in commonality.

The Bible certainly shows that there is such a thing as "ghosts" (in the sense of disembodied spirits or incorporeal spirits): "But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." (Luke 24:37-39).

Some people may find it difficult to believe that ghosts were real even in Biblical contexts; but the narative above shows clearly that the disciples were very aware that such phenomena were common knowledge to the people.

lafile:

More so when you use the phrase when all things would have run their course.

That phrase was to convey the sense of the Day when the Lord Jesus Christ returns to judge the world,a dn when death would be no more (Rev. 21:4 - "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away".

lafile:

Can you give a reply to the question by TV01 that cuts out the possibility of Ghosts ( or like one thread a few months ago said, dead people paying bus fares)

In addition to what was explained above, ghosts (disembodied spirits) were a real phenomena even in the days of the apostles. As far back as I Sam. 28., the phenomena of ghosts or spirits of the departed were well known (read the whole chapter to see the point).

In all this, God warns believers to not engage in communicating with the departed - for that is tantamount to necromancy (Deut. 18:10-12).

Cheers.

@TV01,

Lol. . . I was only offering help, and my persuasions are borne out of having carefully studied that verse in Heb. 9:27. The one thing that came across to me is that you were beginning to sound argumentative without offering an alternative opinion if you were not satisfied with my inputs. Let me assure you: I'm not the writer of the Bible, and to keep questioning the rendition of the verse is simply to question the Word of God. What you read in my lines are my persuasions of the verse in its contexts.

Perhaps you should give it a careful study and offer us your views: you might do well to add to our understanding, rather than long drawn-out debates on just one point.

That said, I think if you take a look again at the verse, it does not drive just one point hinged on the word "once". Verse 27 is illustrative of verse 28: both are connected, and to just hinge this discussion on that one word is counter-productive. However, if your concern is basically about that one word, your will get help by understanding how David himself said in I Kings 2:2 - "I go the way of all the earth: be thou strong therefore, and shew thyself a man."

Might I say that "the way of all the earth" does not conflict with what I sahred earlier, for the patriarch was stating the same truth as that physical death is the common experience of men. Some men may experience death more than once; but Heb. 9:27 is not saying that men can experience death only once! neither does it say that judgement takes place immediately upon death.

Cheers.

@luckyCo,

luckyCO:

What is your oppion on the article?

Here's my opinion about that article: in some sense they may be correct; in other matters, they have a slightly different view than we read in the Bible.

1. Ghosts are not always from Satan; although the devil uses this phenomena to deceive people - in just the same way that he can imitate the gifts of God to deceive some Christians. Recall in I Samuel 28 that the witch of endor used a diabolical art (witchcraft) to stir up the spirit/ghost of a godly man (Samuel) at the request of King Saul. The message delivered by Samuel's ghost/spirit was no different from that delievered by the same prophet when he was alive. Further, the spirit did not pretend to be Samuel, for he clearly queried Saul: "Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?" (verse 15).

2. Believers are especially warned to be careful not to engage in spiritism - including communicating with the dead (necromancy). That is what Scripture denounces as an abomination before God (Deut. 18:10-12).

3. The stronghold of satanism (including juju, jazz, etc.) can be broken by the power of the Lord Jesus Christ. The enemy and his demonic emissaries know a true believer when they see one, because they understand the operations of the realms of spirits; and they know when the name of Jesus Christ is present in someone who lives to honour God in truth.

I hope that this helps, and will be glad to learn from anyone contributing to the subject.

Cheers.

shahan:

@TV01,

Lol. . . I was only offering help, and my persuasions are borne out of having carefully studied that verse in Heb. 9:27. The one thing that came across to me is that you were beginning to sound argumentative without offering an alternative opinion if you were not satisfied with my inputs. Let me assure you: I'm not the writer of the Bible, and to keep questioning the rendition of the verse is simply to question the Word of God. What you read in my lines are my persuasions of the verse in its contexts.

Perhaps you should give it a careful study and offer us your views: you might do well to add to our understanding, rather than long drawn-out debates on just one point.

That said, I think if you take a look again at the verse, it does not drive just one point hinged on the word "once". Verse 27 is illustrative of verse 28: both are connected, and to just hinge this discussion on that one word is counter-productive. However, if your concern is basically about that one word, your will get help by understanding how David himself said in I Kings 2:2 - "I go the way of all the earth: be thou strong therefore, and shew thyself a man."

Might I say that "the way of all the earth" does not conflict with what I sahred earlier, for the patriarch was stating the same truth as that physical death is the common experience of men. Some men may experience death more than once; but Heb. 9:27 is not saying that men can experience death only once! neither does it say that judgement takes place immediately upon death.

Cheers.

Thanks shahan, you are absolutely right, in answering out of your persuasions, and I particularly appreciate your forthrightness and willingness to hear a contrary position (and rightly invite me to enunciate it rather than circling).

First let me digress a little. I took a 2 month posting hiatus from this forum (and I only really post to the thread on religion), although I read pretty much everything posted. One of the things I ruminated on was how much benefit I derived from posting and what was my attitude (and also that of others) when posting.

I really feel we could all be so much more edified if we pooled our experience, walks & understanding. I'll stop here as I have to dash now, but I shall return with an alternative understanding of this verse. I intend to be no later than tomorrow night and possibly earlier.

Back soon.

God bless

@Topic,

I agree with all the contributors so far that John the Baptist and Elijah are two different personalities altogether.  The Bible does not teach re-incarnation in any way and every appearance of the dead in the Bible is only a manifestation of what the Bible calls familiar spirits. In this, I respectfully disagree with Shahan that the spirit that spoke to the witch of Endor is actually that of Samuel. That is a familiar spirit in action and the deceit is only further heightened by the personal pronoun that was used by that spirit.

Having said this, the only time the real spirits of those who died were ever seen was after the resurrection of Jesus. That is why Paul wrote that Jesus led captivity captive. I strongly believe that Jesus went into the 3 compartments under the ground after His death. The first is Hell, the second Tatarus and the third is Abraham's Bossom. On rising from the dead, He took the Saints in Abraham's Bossom with Him on ascension to heaven. It was on transition to heaven that many of these Saints were spotted in Jerusalem. So now, any one who dies in the Lord does not go to Abraham's Bossom but straight up to Heaven to be present with the Lord. I have references for this for anyone who cares to know more. While it appears this is a little digression from the topic at hand, I believe it is relevant to answering the question about re-incarnation.

I will answer the question of Hebrews 9:27 subsequently.

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

While Shahan's contribution so far is biblically based, I agree with TV01 that this Bible verse holds far greater meaning than the church has traditionally taught. The 'death' mentioned in this passage holds the key to the interpretation of the whole verse. The question is how many kinds of death is common to all men; and which one of these deaths must be experienced by every son of Adam? The fact that some men have been known to avoid physical death suggests that the passage might not be refering to physical death. From the scriptures, we know of 2 men who never tasted death. The first is Enoch and the second is Elijah. Some also believe Moses never tasted physical death, but there is evidence from the New Testament that he did. Apart from these 2 men, we also know that the entire church body that remain alive at the time of Jesus' coming will also be resurrected and never taste physical death. Doesn't that all but eliminate the notion that Hebrews 9:27 refer to physical death? I believe it does.

If we have eliminated physical death, then we are left with only one alternative: spiritual death. Reading the entire chapter of Hebrews 9 suggests that verse 27 refers strictly to spiritual death. The chapter talks about the redemption provided "once" by the sacrifice of Jesus which "once" and for all takes care of the "one" time consequence of sin: "spiritual death". For every man born of a woman, the Psalmist has this to say: Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. And if we understand that the wages of sin is death; then we can only conclude that the death appointed unto all men must be the one they can never escape. And I do not see how anyone can escape the one that comes about right from our mother's womb.

While there may be more questions from my submission, I believe I should slow down a little and hear what TV01 has to say. It will be nice to have others shed some additional light on the topic as well. God willing and with available time, I will also further explain my position as we go.

@TayoD,

I quite appreciate your exegesis of Heb. 9:27, although I may not really agree with you that it points more to spiritual death than to physical. Reason being simply that all men die spiritually once (which I agree with what you said), but the construct seems to hold that the writer was pointing more to when men are raised from the dead to face the judgement.

I had formerly reasoned a few years ago that it had to be spiritual death. What gave me the idea of my former position on this was Rom 5:12 & 14 - "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. . .Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

But then I had a rethink to understand it as a play of words that the writer of Hebrews is characteristically known to punctuate throughout this epistle. Another example is when he states in Heb. 11:17 that Isaac was Abraham's only begotten son when we know that Ishmael preceded Isaac.

What the writer wants us to understand (judging from the construct) is that the common lot of all men (the way of all the earth - I Kings 2:2) is death before the judgement - and you'll see there what the patriarch David meant by that. I'll not push this too strongly, even though I once held your position; but perhaps one day you'll come to see it is not what you might be suggesting. If not, no qualms.


Now regarding the case of Samuel's spirit in I Sam. 28:15, many people are persuaded it had to be a familiar spirit and not the prophet actually. Again, that's what I thought previously, until later study reveals otherwise that it was actually the prophet Samuel. This is one time that God in His sovereignty allowed a case like this in order to confirm to Saul that he had lost the kingdom. I'll wait to see your persuasions about why it is otherwise so, then share with you what you might be missing thereto.

Cheers.

Thanks shahan I love your response. May God continues to bless you as render your help to helpless.

Well, luckyCO. . . I've gained much from everyone's input. And God bless you more than your heart's desire!

Hi Everyone,

Apologies for my not being able to post as intended, technical hitch. I'll try and post as promised soon.

God bless

I think these scriptures clear  any doubt regarding John the Baptist.
There is indeed nothing like reincarnation

1Jhn 1:19   Now this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?"

Jhn 1:20   He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ."

Jhn 1:21   And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" He said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No."

Jhn 1:22   Then they said to him, "Who are you, that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What do you say about yourself?
"
Jhn 1:23   He said: "I am

'The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
"Make straight the way of the LORD,"'*

as the prophet Isaiah said."

Shanno & others who commented on similar topic

How should I react or behave or believe on when I see a spirit of person that has died(Ghost)?

Again is it God's plan that somebody that will die and be coming out inform of spirit wearing white cloth or likes?

Again as a xtian what should I do when I see a spirit of somebody who has died?

@luckyCO,

First, out of curiosity, I just hope you don't have experiences of seeing the spirits of the departed. But if and when you do, here are some recommendations:

luckyCO:

How should I react or behave or believe on when I see a spirit of person that has died(Ghost)?

There's no need to be alarmed. The Bible makes clear that as the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ draws even closer, the activities of demonic and seducing spirits will increase (I Tim. 4:1). Some of these spirits assume the form of people well-known in a locality (whether friends or family relations), and are very familiar with events about the very person they imitate.

Their characteristic activity is to bring a message, whether good or bad; and the aim behind that activity is primarily to make the recipient of such messages dependent on the diabolic realms from which they operate. Of course, we know that the prince of the diabolic realms is Satan himself; and he is ever busy seeking whom to devour.

In God's New Covenant for Christians, no such spirits are permitted to visit or bear messages to blood-bought believers. The only spirits expressly assigned by God for that purpose are the angels who stand in His presence ('ministering spirits' - Heb. 1:14). From the onset when God called a people to Himself, He expressly forbade such activities among His people and regarded them as an abomination among several others (consulting with familiar spirits and necromancy - Deut. 18:10-12).

If at all a believer sees a ghost or spirit of the departed, he or she should not be alarmed; but rather focus on the Lord Jesus Christ and His word. Those spirits know the presence of Jesus; but until a believer consciously affirms and walks in the authority of Christ over such activity, diabolical spirits can assume any form of a familiar person known to the recipient, and then try to engage them in pretentious errands.

luckyCO:

Again is it God's plan that somebody that will die and be coming out inform of spirit wearing white cloth or likes?

No, God has no such plan for those who know His Son Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.

The foregoing does not mean to say that familiar spirits never attempt to engage the believer - they do, and are very actively seeking to distract Christians. However, these spirits also know that a well-taught believer in Jesus Christ who affirms the authority of the Lord daily in his or her life, will never fall for their surreptitious activities.

luckyCO:

Again as a xtian what should I do when I see a spirit of somebody who has died?

As above, (1) affirm the authority of Jesus Christ as Lord over all things; (2) affirm the power of His blood over demonic activities (Satan cannot challenge the power of the blood - Rev. 12:11); (3) be not alarmed, but walk daily by depending on the Holy Spirit to meet your needs.

As long as a believer is not hoping or expecting to receive any messages from familiar spirits or ghosts, even when they try to engage such Christians, their efforts are of no avail.

God bless and protect you always.

Hi TayoD,

I'm still very interested in your views on Heb. 9:27 and I Sam. 28. We are all learning and I trust that, perhaps, your insight might help me see what I might have missed.

Cheers.

@ Shahan
i really like you response to LuckyCo. God Bless You.

I have a question for you

Are familiar spirits just that (i.e evil spirits, demons that disguise as dead people) or actually the spirit of the dead people set loose on the earth? i believe they are just spirits.

Hi @lafile,

Familiar spirits include demons who particularly assume the identity of well-known people in a locality, as well as effectively help the work of enchanters and wizards. These group of spirits are not to be confused with diabolical spirits that undertake other demonic activities - such as demon possession or spirits of afflictions.

The ghosts of dead people are familiar spirits as well; but the term "familiar spirits" is broader than just ghosts, and is especially used for the range of spirits that wizards and enchanters employ in their trade, especially when dealing with the dark underworld of the dead.

Lev. 19:31 - Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Deut. 18:11 - Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Isa. 8:19 - And when they say to you, "Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter," should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?

May God keep you close to Himself, and bless all your days!

Shannan

Plz don't say I ve asked too much on the this subject matter. Why because I hear so many people discussing about it and some believe in it without really asking those who are spiritually higher than them.

Plz What will I tell a person who said and I quote " I used to see my father sometimes in the night around 12am and 12pm and my father has not gone anywhere until the seond coming of Jesus Christ". This person is an elder in our area and a xtian. He said I was short words. Plz ur comments.

@luckyCO,

No question is one too many; so welcome with as many as you have - other Christians who are more mature than me can take them up where I fail. I'll only do the littel I can.

It's really sad that leaders in some of the churches have their focus on such activities that are expressly condemned in God's Word. Some hold onto such experiences, either out of ignorance, or pride and a claim to super-spirituality.

As I said earlier, the aim of such spirits is to captivate the hearts and minds of the recipients, so that they become more dependent on those ghosts and spirits and less focused on the living Christ and the revelation of His Word.

Now, with respect to the elder, he may be sincere; but it sounds like he has become more dependent on the spirit visiting him at specific times of the night under the guise of his late father. In the face of such a situation, it may be very difficult for you to persuade him otherwise; but as in some other such cases, the power of the enemy has been borken by the prayers of concerned believers.

Two things I can recommend: (1) be sure that if he preaches or teaches, his messages ought not be based on anything the ghost says, but rather on what the Word of God expressly declares. If that is the case, such is not meant for you; (2) if you feel led by God's Spirit that you're under a questionable environment in that church, you should seek His leading to where He wants you to be.

Perhaps when I'm less busy this weekend, then I'll share with you a bit more about the sphere and operations of the spirits of the departed. For now, God bless and keep you.

Hi Guys,

Finally back as promised. I'll keep this short. As I said earlier, I think Shahan', interpretation is the default one for many. I also note TayoD's entry, which to my mind sounds somewhat far-fetched, and I'm far from agreeing with it. I won't give in-depth detail as I feel the explanation speaks the simple truth and will appear as such to those who hear it. Hopefully that will also engender a personal search. But I trust you guys on that anyway. So here goes;

I believe the verse in particular, the chapter generally, (as well as most of the book up to that point), is expounding on the excellency of the NC with particular reference to the saving work of our Lord jesus Christ, and specifically His High Priesthood. What the portion in question is doing is opening up the shadow-type of the day of atonement, outlined in some detail in Leviticus.

Just a little broad background. As many may be aware, on the day of atonement the High Priest would enter the Most Holy place (ceremonially just the one time each year). He would take the blood of a ritually specified sacrifice to make atonement in place of himself). The HP always had a rope tied to his ankle. This was because if the sacrifice was not acceptable to God, the ensuing judgment (by fire!) would kill the HP, and they could retrieve his corpse without having to enter (would you ?) the Holy of Holies.

So what the verse is doing is comparing the yearly atonement sacrifice (verse 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands), where the HP entered with blood of another, to the spiritual fulfilment of this type, where Christ offered up Himself. Verses 25 goes on to explain how the shadow-type was repeated yearly, with blood of another, while verse 26 explains and exalts at the superiority of Christs sacrifice, being just the once, and with His own blood.

And the verse in question: verse 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

This refers to the appointment of the house of Aaron (as HP) to ceremonially die once (but this was done vicariously via the ritual offering). The judgement being the judgement of God on the sacrifice offered for atonement. An imperfect (blemished!) sacrifice would have resulted in a consuming judgement and the death of the HP. It's acceptance being witnessed by the return of the HP (a type of ressurection in a sense as the blood should have been his?).

I believe that in a simple way unlocks and explains that particular verse. To me it fits the context, harmonises with the surrounding verses, the chapter and the book and offers by far the clearest interpretation I've heard. And no, I never really doubted the rendering, just the interpretation.

But then the Bible, the Gospel is essentially simple. It doesn't require heaps of theorising and lengthy discourse, nor does it need excessive spiritualising. Default positions arise as a result of dogma. If we seek Him and not them, He will surely speak. I heard Him once and I haven't been the same.

I feel we've all been given pieces off the big picture. We can seek Him for yet more, and come together to share. The Christian discourse on Nairaland is hereby declared a Dogma-free, tradition-free, mog-free zone! Give God glory.

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out![color=#990000][/color]

God bless

@TV01,

Your entry on Heb. 9:27 is interesting. However, I'm sorry to particularly note that it bears no relation to the context and nuances characteristic throughout the epistle. Nevermind the cosmetic overshadowing of trying to class others' interpretation as dogma and tradition; but here are a few things for you to think through:

TV01:

He would take the blood of a ritually specified sacrifice to make atonement in place of himself).

While the verse embraces a wider sphere of 'men' in a generic sense, your idea narrows it down to just the high priest. What is more to the point is that the verse focuses on death appointed unto men rather than unto the priests in the holy place.

Secondly, the statement "to make atonement in place of himself" already defeats your argument, because it supposes that death was appointed unto the sacrifice rather than unto men.

Thirdly, if you understand a bit of the perculiar construct of the epistle, you could not fail to see that the death appointed unto men is in striking apposition to the judgement that follows afterwards. If you ignore the judgement, then you'd have to retrace your steps back to the question of what death is being spoken of in that verse.

TV01:

This refers to the appointment of the house of Aaron (as HP) to ceremonially die once (but this was done vicariously via the ritual offering).

Again, you miss the point.

(a) It was not to the house of Aaron that the appointment was made, but rather to men in a general sense. It does not even stand to reason that they were "to ceremonially die once" in a vicarious sense, because Heb. 9:27 is clear that the appointment unto death was unto men, and not the animals used for the sacrifices.

(b) Notice it says to die "once"; and if we go by your assumptions, then that would make it a vicarious death that occured many times! "And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins" (Heb. 10:11). If the priest stood daily to offer the same sacrifice oftentimes, that doesn't sound like dying once, does it??

TV01:

The judgement being the judgement of God on the sacrifice offered for atonement.

C'mon, TV01. You're substituting your personal ideas in place of God's clear and holy Word. It does not say that at all. Rather, the death was unto men, and the judgement followed after the death. It does not say that the death was appointed unto the sacrifice, but unto men!

TV01:

But then the Bible, the Gospel is essentially simple. It doesn't require heaps of theorising and lengthy discourse, nor does it need excessive spiritualising. Default positions arise as a result of dogma.

I think you just did exactly what you denounced.

TV01:

I feel we've all been given pieces off the big picture. We can seek Him for yet more, and come together to share. The Christian discourse on Nairaland is hereby declared a Dogma-free, tradition-free, mog-free zone! Give God glory.

Glory!