Shannon
I will be very glad to see their various operations(Ghost) such that I will discuss with examples while discussing with him. His is a man that needs many examples before he believes. He was a pegan before converted into christianity. Am virgling for that. Thanks and God bless.

@luckyCO,

Gladly, I'll find time later tonight after my very busy schedule to post something for you. It's weekend again, and usually mine is very often busy. Hope you enjoy yours.

Cheers.

na wa.
lucky don baptize you new name.
Shannon kwa?

Tee-hee-hee! i'll retain that one as well.

@Shahan,

I've been so tied up at work this past week and been unable to post as much as I would love to. But in any case, I thought I'd shed more light on my position as earlier promised.

1 Samuel 28: I have no doubt in my heart that what Saul was dealing with was a familiar spirit and not the spirit of Samuel. The deceit of the enemy was compounded by the personal pronoun used by the spirit as well as the reference to the Word of God. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone because the devil knows and quotes God's Word very well. Do we remember how he quoted Bible verses to tempt Jesus? That the words of the spirit were truthful isn't a big deal if we remember the spirit that followed Paul around declaring truthfully that Paul was a servant of the Lord whose words should be heeded.

I wonder why God would allow the spirit of his saint to be roused from rest to partake of an act that God has forbidden. Like Apostle Paul argued, we cannot hope to promote righteousness through sinful means. So I very much doubt God will encourage sin in order to establish His will.

Hebrews 9:27

I defintely don't agree with what TV01 said concerning this scripture. His explanation is neither consistent with the entire passage nor sustained by revelation.

As I have established before, I believe the death mentioned in that verse cannot be physical death since we all know that not all men will die physically, and infact there are 2 we know who never tasted physical death.

At the same time, Hebrews 9:27 qualifies the word 'judgement' meaning that it refers to a single, common judgement that all men will face. May I bring to your attention that Christians will not be at the same judgment with unbelievers. As Christians, we will appear before the judgment seat of Christ while the unbels will report to the White throne judgement. With this back-drop, it is clear that "the judgment" in Hebrews 9:27 must not be the one after physical death because there is no single judgement common to all men.

As I said before, we are left with only the option of spiritual death and its consequence: judgment. If we'll recall, Adam was judged as soon as he sinned even before the Lord came into the garden. That judgment ensures he could no longer stand in God's prescence and alienated him from God.

It is this separation from God that the atonement deals with, and ensures that though we are appointed to die once and be judged, Christ has provided a means of reconcialiation back to God. That is the main theme of the entire passage.

Shannon

Perhaps when I'm less busy this weekend, then I'll share with you a bit more about the sphere and operations of the spirits of the departed

Am still waiting to hear from you. Maybe u are not busy but when u are less busy I would like to hear from you more operation of evil as you said.

@LuckyCO,

Sorry it is a bit late. However, I'll set to task on that and ensure that you get it no later than tonight. Thanks for your kind patience.

@TayoD,

Great reasoning; and like you, I'm persuaded that TV01 missed the whole context and inference of Hebrews 9:27. However, at the risk of overstating it, let me share once again my present persuasion why the context of that verse refers to physical death, rather than spiritual.

(a) I previously held the same as your present position out of the same reasons you had offered. What made me change my perspective was a more indepth study of the verse, taking into consideration the author's characteristic style, nuances, context, and the collective picture of the whole epistle. Where these have been missed, a slanted idea will result.

(b) Notice the verse is not arguing that every man without an exception must die; rather, it states a general premise that his recipients were well acquainted with, as encapsulated in the writings of the prophets. Of course, these prophets already were acquainted with the fact that some men did not experience physical death (as in Enoch's case - Gen. 5:24; which also the author of Hebrews well knew - Heb. 11:5). Yet, rather than make a statutory declaration that all men must die, the verse simply points us to a broad sense of what is the common lot of men.

(c) Please carefully see the following that undergirds (b) above:

          Job 7:1
          Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of an hireling?

          Job 30:23
          For I know that thou wilt bring me to death, and to the house appointed for all living.

          Psa. 89:48
          What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

          Eccl. 9:3
          This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all:
          yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after
          that they go to the dead.

You might also want to see Job 14:1-12
          Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble. . . Seeing his days are determined,
          the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass.

You can gather from all these that the apostle, in penning Heb. 9:27, was not treating the subject of spiritual death, but rather the very same one with which the recipients of his epistle were well familiar - physical death. I trust this is what the blessed patriarchs Joshua and David meant by their classic adage, "going the way of all the earth" (Josh. 23:14 & I Kings 2:2), which simply alludes to the common lot of men in a general sense.

(d) Now a very important question might be asked: If the death alluded to in Heb. 9:27 points to spiritual death, are we to infer that the judgement took place following its occurence? Did the judgement occur after spiritual death took place?

If that were the case, then two very convoluted ideas result:
             (i) it would then mean that there is no future judgement to be executed, as this would have taken place
                 right after the Fall in Gen. 3 - and which would render the sense of Heb. 9:27 completely misguided.
            (ii) since the judgement is a specific one, the context shows already that it is yet a future occurence;
                 otherwise, the vicarious sacrifice of Christ would have been entirely unnecessary where no judgement
                 was expected in future.

(e) Now, we must as well ask: who did the appointing - i.e., who appointed man to die once? You can see the answer immediately in the verses already quoted, that God alone is the one who appointed man thereto: "thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass" (Job 14:5). This appointing is not unto spiritual death, because that would suppose that God actually appointed man to the Fall! But then, physical death is there alluded to, so that we understand it as the present crises that man has to grapple with.

Please note well, the apostle would have us understand that the death being spoken of in Heb. 9:27 is physical death - which is in stricking apposition to "the judgement"! One needs ask: when is the judgement to occur? If it is a future event, then the death there is clearly one that is in a physical sense, rather than in a spiritual sense. If the death were spiritual, then it presupposes that there is no future judgement - because it would have occured soon after Gen. 3 when spiritual death occured.

Finally, there is going to be a triumph over death in all its expression:

I Cor. 15:54-57
"So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."


I have enjoyed your reasoning and been blessed by it. I trust that we have both learnt something beneficial either way.

Cheers.

TV01:

Hebrews 8: 1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a Minister of the sanctuary and of the true tabernacle which the Lord erected, and not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices. Therefore it is necessary that this One also have something to offer. 4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, "See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain." 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-- 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." 13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

. . . And??

. . . And??

Hi Shahan & TayoD (and anyone else who is interested or following),

Thank you for your responses to my take on[b] Hebrews 9:27[/b]. To be honest, it was probably a good thing that I didn't respond immediately. I've taken time to think a little and realise that if I had responded likewise (hastily & dismisively?), there's a good chance the discussion may have degenerated.

Shahan, the hastiness of you last post makes me think you answered totally out of your preconcieved notions and without recourse to scripture. Likewise TayoD, who did not even bother to question my post. Which in some ways may be better than Shahan, who questioned it on the basis of her own seemingly unretractable position.

The point (to answer your question after my posting of the 8th chapter), was to post  the chapter in question & the preceeding one, and try and make headway from there. I have no problem, if you do not want to continue the discussion, or even if you'd like to do another (just say) way. I just thought this way we could literally walk through it and anyone else who was so inclined could follow.

Our initial point of difference seems to be the frame of reference of the immediate scriptural narrative. I see it as a contrasting of the earthly and heavenly High Priesthoods. And in stating so, I don't see any reason for verse 27 of chapter 9 to suddenly switch tack and launch into a one verse discourse about the "commonality of death the once to all men". I feel this is out of step with the Epistle, chapter and narrative, while it also appears to contradict other parts of scripture (as you yourself have posted regards Enoch and Elijah and anyone else can see from the numerous accounts of people dying and been brought back to life).

So based on the chapters posted or any other from the epistle (for focus), or even the scriptures as a whole, please feel free to ask the first question.

God bless.

@TV01,

I think you got it all wrong; and indeed my replies were not hasty. I was wondering what useful purpose it would have served to post whole lengthy chapters when readers could easily access the points of the particular verses we are about.

Secondly, we all have varying views on the subject - and while stating that my position had changed from the one previously held by TayoD, I went on to give an indepth analysis of precisely why my present position came about. I haven't read yet how you arrived at your persuasions from the background of the elements you mentioned.

If the very same elements have been comprehensively treated in my previous post and yet did not strike a chord with you, I'm sure we can all agree to just smile at the humour of having been blessed by contributions from one another. Afterall, whatever is shared here is just the personal views of the posters.

Cheers and many blessings.

Shannan
Thanks, take your time am not in a haste. Thanks and God bless.

Many blessings, LuckyCO. . .lol. I'm working on it, but had to take time off to make a special meal for a friend. Will be back soonest. Cheers.

shahan

It is just now I noticed that I have being using your name(Or ID) wrongly. Am sorry for that. Please accept my applogy.

@luckyCO! In know where do they bible in any form teach re-incarnation,but believers in such paganistic teaching always search the bible to see, if they can find any text or texts of the scripture that alludes to that.

Back to the subject matter, When angel Gabriel appeared before Zechariah to announce his having a child, a part of what he told him is these (Luke Chapter 1:16-17,"and many of the sons of Isreal will be turned back to Jehovah (Yahweh) their God, vs 17,"Also he will go before him with Elijah's spirit and power, to turn back the heart of fathers to children, and the disobidient ones to practical wisdom of righteous ones, and to get ready for Jehovah a prepared people.

What does having the spirit of Elijah mean? Is no other than someone saying lets imbibe the team spirit of a particular footbal team or the other, Or a ruler to, be saying, i shall rule or govern with the spirit of a known past ruler, lets take for example, I will rule with the spirit of Murtala Mohhamed, or Tunde Idiagbon etc.Any person who knew these past rulers will clearly understand what is meant by such.

So John the baptizer did became zealous for God's work of evangelisation just like Elijah, revealing evils no hold barred just like Elijah(that undo him his sliced head on a plate) But you have to know that in nowhere was it recorded that John performed miracles like Elijah

NOTE that when John was born his parents do not say, we have given birth to Elijah, or do the rejoicing neighbours understand it to be so.

Lets have some conversation between John and persons who perceived him as Elijah in (John Chapter 1:19-22 reads "Now this the witness of John when the Jews sent forth priests and levites from Jerusalem to him to ask ask him, Who re you? And he confessed and did not deny but confessed, "I am not the Christ, "And they asked him, What then? Are you Elijah? "And he said I am Not."Are you the prophet? and he answered No.
John have spoken for himself (Sunstance sufficient)
Adios!

Shahan
Am still waiting for your posting about the works of spirits as you said you will post when u are less busy.
Thanks and God bless you.

@luckyCO,

Phew! I'll post it overnight so it would be ready for you tomorrow. The last few days have been really tight for me, but there's a good chance that my schedule will be eased until the weekend.

Thanks for your patience, and many blessings.

No problem my dear.
Just take your time, I will love to hear from you because I can see ur special gift of evangelization.
Thanks and remain blessed in the mighty name of Jesus Christ.

@luckyCo,

Now let me deal with your enquiry. Please pardon the delay - I actually tried posting it last night and then my PC froze and the piece was lost in transit. Here's a rough sketch of the points I had last night:

luckyCO:

I will be very glad to see their various operations(Ghost) such that I will discuss with examples while discussing with him. His is a man that needs many examples before he believes. He was a pegan before converted into christianity. Am virgling for that. Thanks and God bless.

I am not quite versed about the various operations of ghosts in the Bible, as they are not comprehensively discussed in Scripture. The reason seems to be that God in wisdom does not give us detail about what He pronounces as abomination - and as we have seen, communication with the spirits of the dead or the underworld is expressly forbidden and termed abomination: (Deut. 18).

Deut. 18:10-12
"There shall not be found among you any one that . . .useth divination, . . . or an enchanter, or a witch, . . . a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee."

The question is: What are 'familiar spirits'?
As explained earlier, these are diabolic spirits under the authority of Satan. The term 'familiar' given to them is should explain their perculiar activity as spirits disguising to be people known to others. They may assume the identities of very close relatives of people in order to bring special messages of warning, prosperity, goodwill and well wishes. . . or even bad news. Their goal is solely to captivate the attention of their victims in order to make them dependent on the whims of Satan and his domain.

And what are ghosts?
Ghosts are simply spirits, but again they are a real phenomenon that people experience. Not all ghosts, I pressume, are actually diabolical spirits; and the case of Moses and Elijah appearing on the mount of transfiguration and discoursing with Jesus in Matt. 17 is an example to the point. Yet, in the broader sense, ghosts are spirits that assume the identities of known people and pretend to bring some kind of message to living people.

Their activities.
Besides pretending to bring help to people in order to seduce and make them dependent on the domain and activities of Satan, ghosts are also particularly known for haunting people. In this case, they cause fear and rule the lives of people who are entrapped in that domain. From Luke 24:37, it is obvious that people were scared on seeing ghosts/spirits: "But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit." It doesn't mean there that they actually saw a ghost there; but it shows you what the reaction of people were if they happened to see a spirit/ghost.

The reason why their activities are not detailed in Scripture is simply because God would not have His people dwelling on the realms of what He condemns; and only by studying the texts where they are mentioned can one understand the phenomenon and activities of ghosts and familiar spirits.

Cheers.

Shahan
Thanks so much.

Bless.