@ Atheists,


You need to understand the formulation of the Free Will defense by Alvin Plantinga. Asking questions on "why" does not amount to an argument or even a counterargument. You need to show that God could have created a logically possible and feasible world (earth) where people have significant free will and yet no sin or evil.

There are only 3 options for God.He wants to create a world,

World A

1. People have complete free will and Evil exists.

World B

1. People do not have Free will and evil does not exist.

World C

1. People have complete Free will and evil does not exist.


Now, no one would want to live in world B,we would be mere Robots,and even good actions could not be regarded as good actions since no one can do otherwise.Why would we say eg Not stealing is a good thing,if stealing is a physical impossibility.

The type of world that critics of the Free Will Defense advocate for is world C. This isa logically possible world,but not a feasible world.Something is logically possible if it entails no contradictions.Something is feasible if it can be actualized in reality.

For example,it is logically possible that a tea cup is orbiting Jupiter but its too small to be seen.But we know in reality,there is probably no tea cup orbiting Jupiter.

If God were to create a world with Free people,then He cannot guarantee that every person will not commit atleast 1 evil act in his/her lifetime.Remember if people in world C are to remain truly Free,then god cannot interfere with their choices causally.i.e He cannot make them pick good actions.
Therefore World C is highly unlikely, Where there are free willed people,there is bound to be people choosing to do evil acts.

It seems then God can create only World A.Which is similar to our current world.Where people have complete free will and evil exists.

[QUOTE]Tell me where is the free will of an innocent six year old who is molested by roman catholic priest ? Where is the free will of a young girl in the DRC who is repeatedly despoiled by rebels and infected with aids ? Where is the free will of a small kid who is accused of being a witch by self proclaimed man of god ?[/QUOTE]

These are questions on justice.As you know Christians believe that every person will be brought to book on the day of judgment.And so justice will be served.The victims,if they embrace Christ,will receive eternal life free of suffering.I can't think of a better Judicial System!

But what about Atheism.What does it offer for the Victims or offenders of these heinous crimes?

Am afraid nothing.If Atheism is true,and God does not really exist,then there is no eternal life,and everyone will die.So why should an atheist care if a child is molested?The child will eventually die of old age or some other disease or accident.

5 billion years from now our sun will obliterate the earth and all the planets when it nears its death.

No one will be here to account for anyone sins,let alone the DRC soldiers or victims.If Atheism is true,then in 5 billion years time it will not matter whether you were mother teresa or hitler,no one will be here to account for their actions.It will not make sense to say, " Mother teresa will be remembered for here good actions." because no will be here to remember.If Atheism is true,Hitler,the DRC soldiers the molesting priests and every criminal and sinner will escape with his evils acts in 5 billion years time or sooner if the climate talks are anything to go by.

No one will receive a special reward,not the victims of violence nor the perpetrators.The irony is,no one will be punished either.And to top it all up,no will be here to care.

Thats the hopelessness that Atheism offers.

@easylogic, is discretion necessary in deciding good or bad? how is free will possible when a wide sphere of actions prohibited? besides are morals constant? its self-evidential. if your God was supreme and almighty, he would not be building on any pre-existing structure, thus any of the options would be possible. religion does not permit free will.

easylogic:

@ Atheists,


You need to understand the formulation of the Free Will defense by Alvin Plantinga. Asking questions on "why" does not amount to an argument or even a counterargument. You need to show that God could have created a logically possible and feasible world (earth) where people have significant free will and yet no sin or evil.

There are only 3 options for God.He wants to create a world,

World A

1. People have complete free will and Evil exists.

World B

1. People do not have Free will and evil does not exist.

World C

1. People have complete Free will and evil does not exist.


Now, no one would want to live in world B,we would be mere Robots,and even good actions could not be regarded as good actions since no one can do otherwise.Why would we say eg Not stealing is a good thing,if stealing is a physical impossibility.

The type of world that critics of the Free Will Defense advocate for is world C. This isa logically possible world,but not a feasible world.Something is logically possible if it entails no contradictions.Something is feasible if it can be actualized in reality.

For example,it is logically possible that a tea cup is orbiting Jupiter but its too small to be seen.But we know in reality,there is probably no tea cup orbiting Jupiter.

If God were to create a world with Free people,then He cannot guarantee that every person will not commit atleast 1 evil act in his/her lifetime.Remember if people in world C are to remain truly Free,then god cannot interfere with their choices causally.i.e He cannot make them pick good actions.
Therefore World C is highly unlikely, Where there are free willed people,there is bound to be people choosing to do evil acts.

It seems then God can create only World A.Which is similar to our current world.Where people have complete free will and evil exists.

These are questions on justice.As you know Christians believe that every person will be brought to book on the day of judgment.And so justice will be served.The victims,if they embrace Christ,will receive eternal life free of suffering.I can't think of a better Judicial System!

But what about Atheism.What does it offer for the Victims or offenders of these heinous crimes?

Am afraid nothing.If Atheism is true,and God does not really exist,then there is no eternal life,and everyone will die.So why should an atheist care if a child is molested?The child will eventually die of old age or some other disease or accident.

5 billion years from now our sun will obliterate the earth and all the planets when it nears its death.

No one will be here to account for anyone sins,let alone the DRC soldiers or victims.If Atheism is true,then in 5 billion years time it will not matter whether you were mother teresa or hitler,no one will be here to account for their actions.It will not make sense to say, " Mother teresa will be remembered for here good actions." because no will be here to remember.If Atheism is true,Hitler,the DRC soldiers the molesting priests and every criminal and sinner will escape with his evils acts in 5 billion years time or sooner if the climate talks are anything to go by.

No one will receive a special reward,not the victims of violence nor the perpetrators.The irony is,no one will be punished either.And to top it all up,no will be here to care.

Thats the hopelessness that Atheism offers.

I don't think that people would not want to live in world B.

easylogic:

@ Atheists,


     You need to understand the formulation of the Free Will defense by Alvin Plantinga. Asking questions on "why" does not amount to an argument or even a counterargument. You need to show that God could have created a logically possible and feasible world (earth) where people have significant free will and yet no sin or evil.

There are only 3 options for God.He wants to create a world,

World A

1. People have complete free will and Evil exists.

World B

1. People do not have Free will and evil does not exist.

World C

1. People have complete Free will and evil does not exist.


Now, no one would want to live in world B,we would be mere Robots,and even good actions could not be regarded as good actions since no one can do otherwise.Why would we say eg Not stealing is a good thing,if stealing is a physical impossibility.

The type of world that critics of the Free Will Defense advocate for is world C. This isa logically possible world,but not a feasible world.Something is logically possible if it entails no contradictions.Something is feasible if it can be actualized in reality.

For example,it is logically possible that a tea cup is orbiting Jupiter but its too small to be seen.But we know in reality,there is probably no tea cup orbiting Jupiter.

If God were to create a world with Free people,then He cannot guarantee that every person will not commit atleast 1 evil act in his/her lifetime.Remember if people in world C are to remain truly Free,then god cannot interfere with their choices causally.i.e He cannot make them pick good actions.
Therefore World C is highly unlikely, Where there are free willed people,there is bound to be people choosing to do evil acts.

It seems then God can create only World A.Which is similar to our current world.Where people have complete free will and evil exists.

These are questions on justice.As you know Christians believe that every person will be brought to book on the day of judgment.And so justice will be served.The victims,if they embrace Christ,will receive eternal life free of suffering.I can't think of a better Judicial System!

But what about Atheism.What does it offer for the Victims or offenders of these heinous crimes?

Am afraid nothing.If Atheism is true,and God does not really exist,then there is no eternal life,and everyone will die.So why should an atheist care if a child is molested?The child will eventually die of old age or some other disease or accident.

5 billion years from now our sun will obliterate the earth and all the planets when it nears its death.

No one will be here to account for anyone sins,let alone the DRC soldiers or victims.If Atheism is true,then in 5 billion years time it will not matter whether you were mother teresa or hitler,no one will be here to account for their actions.It will not make sense to say, " Mother teresa will be remembered for here good actions." because no will be here to remember.If Atheism is true,Hitler,the DRC soldiers the molesting priests and every criminal and sinner will escape with his evils acts in 5 billion years time or sooner if the climate talks are anything to go by.

No one will receive a special reward,not the victims of violence nor the perpetrators.The irony is,no one will be punished either.And to top it all up,no will be here to care.

Thats the hopelessness that Atheism offers.

There is hope in trying to make the world a better place for your fellow man and future generations rather than doing good because you want to be rewarded by a dead carpenter with white robes and the boring job of singing praises for eternity like a retar.d.

A man who does good for the sake of humanity expecting no reward is a NOBLE MAN. A far cry from the selfishness promoted by religions. How many religious people will do good if they learnt there was no eternal reward whatsoever?

We have our very own judicial system right here on earth and its far more effective.

What is so perfect about a judicial system that allows hitler or ethnic hutus to continue slaughtering people. . . . .infact the allied nations and the UN shouldn't have intervened but waited for the judicial system of christ (the best of all) and allow hitler and the genocidal murderers run riot until everybody is dead then christ can come judge us all. . . .how daft is that?

There is hope in trying to make the world a better place for your fellow man and future generations rather than doing good because you want to be rewarded by a dead carpenter with white robes and the boring job of singing praises for eternity like a retar.d.

A man who does good for the sake of humanity expecting no reward is a NOBLE MAN. A far cry from the selfishness promoted by religions. How many religious people will do good if they learnt there was no eternal reward whatsoever?

We have our very own judicial system right here on earth and its far more effective.

What is so perfect about a judicial system that allows hitler or ethnic hutus to continue slaughtering people. . . . .infact the allied nations and the UN shouldn't have intervened but waited for the judicial system of christ (the best of all) and allow hitler and the genocidal murderers run riot until everybody is dead then christ can come judge us all. . . .how daft is that?

1. The way u twist analogies to suit ur dogma is fast becoming uninteresting.
Since according to ur post u believe that Christ would one day return to judge the world. . , .then u should also abide by His word that commands that all men submit to governing authorities romans 13:1.

2. And quite unlike ur false innuendos. . . . .during the era of the law, people lived and did good in honour and service of God, yet there was no promise of eternity awaiting them.

Tudór:

There is hope in trying to make the world a better place for your fellow man and future generations rather than doing good because you want to be rewarded by a dead carpenter with white robes and the boring job of singing praises for eternity like a retar.d.

A man who does good for the sake of humanity expecting no reward is a NOBLE MAN. A far cry from the selfishness promoted by religions. How many religious people will do good if they learnt there was no eternal reward whatsoever?

We have our very own judicial system right here on earth and its far more effective.

What is so perfect about a judicial system that allows hitler or ethnic hutus to continue slaughtering people. . . . .infact the allied nations and the UN shouldn't have intervened but waited for the judicial system of christ (the best of all) and allow hitler and the genocidal murderers run riot until everybody is dead then christ can come judge us all. . . .how daft is that?

[s]Wwhy the hell did you even bother to quote Easylogic at all? Did he say anything about Christ? Do you take time to read?[/s] (Retracted with apologies)

Now i notice how convenienmtly you skipped over his excellent logic in putting to the sword the silly questions yourself, Atheists and Kay17 ask about evil in teh world.

Address these if you can -

There are only 3 options for God.He wants to create a world,

World A

1. People have complete free will and Evil exists.

World B

1. People do not have Free will and evil does not exist.

World C

1. People have complete Free will and evil does not exist.


Now, no one would want to live in world B,we would be mere Robots,and even good actions could not be regarded as good actions since no one can do otherwise.Why would we say eg Not stealing is a good thing,if stealing is a physical impossibility.

The type of world that critics of the Free Will Defense advocate for is world C. This isa logically possible world,but not a feasible world.Something is logically possible if it entails no contradictions.Something is feasible if it can be actualized in reality.

For example,it is logically possible that a tea cup is orbiting Jupiter but its too small to be seen.But we know in reality,there is probably no tea cup orbiting Jupiter.

If God were to create a world with Free people,then He cannot guarantee that every person will not commit atleast 1 evil act in his/her lifetime.Remember if people in world C are to remain truly Free,then god cannot interfere with their choices causally.i.e He cannot make them pick good actions.
Therefore World C is highly unlikely, Where there are free willed people,there is bound to be people choosing to do evil acts.

It seems then God can create only World A.Which is similar to our current world.Where people have complete free will and evil exists.

I hope you note and are capable of absorbing the fact that teh "world c" indicated above is a rational reverse.

That's a man who uses his brain, not bleating about like some spoilt kid looking for candy-paradise in rwanda.

Pastor AIO:

I don't think that people would not want to live in world B.

And what will be the point of any existence if all one's actions and thoughts are pre-programmed.

Would that not be a travesty of the word "humanity" and the essence of life?

Deep Sight:

Wwhy the hell did you even bother to quote Easylogic at all? Did he say anything about Christ? Do you take time to read?

Now i notice how convenienmtly you skipped over his excellent logic in putting to the sword the silly questions yourself, Atheists and Kay17 ask about evil in teh world.

Is this guy fuccking blind or what?
Did you really take time to read easy logic's post at all or you're just quick to type anything as long as it antagonizes atheits?

easylogic:

These are questions on justice.As you know Christians believe that every person will be brought to book on the day of judgment.And so justice will be served.The victims,if they embrace Christ,will receive eternal life free of suffering.I can't think of a better Judicial System!

But what about Atheism.What does it offer for the Victims or offenders of these heinous crimes?

Am afraid nothing.If Atheism is true,and God does not really exist,then there is no eternal life,and everyone will die.So why should an atheist care if a child is molested?The child will eventually die of old age or some other disease or accident.

Dude SHINE your eyes very well and stop misyarning stupi.dly

Ooops - my bad - sorry i seemed to read that the wrong way like he was saying that was the belief of christians, nothing more.

Vety well then.

You still cannot escape addressing this:

There are only 3 options for God.He wants to create a world,

World A

1. People have complete free will and Evil exists.

World B

1. People do not have Free will and evil does not exist.

World C

1. People have complete Free will and evil does not exist.


Now, no one would want to live in world B,we would be mere Robots,and even good actions could not be regarded as good actions since no one can do otherwise.Why would we say eg Not stealing is a good thing,if stealing is a physical impossibility.

The type of world that critics of the Free Will Defense advocate for is world C. This isa logically possible world,but not a feasible world.Something is logically possible if it entails no contradictions.Something is feasible if it can be actualized in reality.

For example,it is logically possible that a tea cup is orbiting Jupiter but its too small to be seen.But we know in reality,there is probably no tea cup orbiting Jupiter.

If God were to create a world with Free people,then He cannot guarantee that every person will not commit atleast 1 evil act in his/her lifetime.Remember if people in world C are to remain truly Free,then god cannot interfere with their choices causally.i.e He cannot make them pick good actions.
Therefore World C is highly unlikely, Where there are free willed people,there is bound to be people choosing to do evil acts.

It seems then God can create only World A.Which is similar to our current world.Where people have complete free will and evil exists.

Tell me that this deals with your issues on evil in the world?

If God were to create a world with Free people,then He cannot guarantee that every person will not commit atleast 1 evil act in his/her lifetime.Remember if people in world C are to remain truly Free,then god cannot interfere with their choices causally.i.e He cannot make them pick good actions.
Therefore World C is highly unlikely, Where there are free willed people,there is bound to be people choosing to do evil acts.

It seems then God can create only World A.Which is similar to our current world.Where people have complete free will and evil exists.

So this was the best an omnipotent God could do under the circumstances, what makes an act evil and what makes it good? But God created angels no? have they got freewill too?
It just does not make sense at least to me that God would even create the world at all, what was his purpose? what did he intend to achieve? If he needed people to obey him then why create people with freewill?

My problem with deep sight has always been that you will accept just about anything that remotely says there is a God , even when it is very wanting in terms of logic.

@ Chris -

As an atheist, you do not belive that angels exist, and quite frankly they are outside the purview of any argument so let's leave that aside - we cannot presume that -

  1. Angels exist

  2. They have freewill

- At least not for the purpose of this discussion.

On creation, you ask what teh purpose is.

I say self-expression. Namely that God did not create anything seeking worship but God's nature naturally expands out of God's core thus emitting creations. Kinda like how the universe is expanding. . . just a weak example if you get my drift. . .

noetic15:

1. The way u twist analogies to suit your dogma is fast becoming uninteresting.

The way you consistently lie and misrepresent me is sinful, isn't it?

Since according to your post u believe that Christ would one day return to judge the world. . ,  .then u should also abide by His word that commands that all men submit to governing authorities romans 13:1.

Why bother with constituted authority and the human judicial system since according to mr easy logic the judiciary of christ the the ultimate in perfection.

Even your lying faith recognises humans are capable of according justice and we need no magician in the sky to help. . . .what does that say about religion?

2. And quite unlike your false innuendos. . . . .during the era of the law, people lived and did good in honour and service of God, yet there was no promise of eternity awaiting them.

What the fuadck is noetic talking about?

Are you now saying that during the era of the law there was nothing like eternal life /after life and every dead soul remained dead?

Noetic. . . .noetic. . . .noetic. . . .ha!!

Deep Sight:

@ Chris -

As an atheist, you do not belive that angels exist, and quite frankly they are outside the purview of any argument so let's leave that aside - we cannot presume that -

  1. Angels exist

  2. They have freewill

- At least not for the purpose of this discussion.

On creation, you ask what teh purpose is.

I say self-expression. Namely that God did not create anything seeking worship but God's nature naturally expands out of God's core thus emitting creations. Kinda like how the universe is expanding. . . just a weak example if you get my drift. . .

Errrrrr I was referring to the other thread, AKO said something about angels not having freewill I was only seeking to see if the poster thought the same way too bite me!
Stop trying to sound like M_nwankwo, I have had a lot of correspondence with him to know his ideas regardless of who is posting it, try and be original ok.

So back to the issue how do you know it is self expression, how you  take come across this kind ogbonge knowledge?

^^^ Think about it.

Why is the universe expanding?

Why do things grow, and then wither and die?

Just as surely as the universe will die one day when its expansion has burnt up more energy than it can sustain itself with.

It's a self-evident cycle.

It makes sense to view an expansion as a natural protrusion from a centre.

Creation is thus a natural protrusion from the primordial and trasncendental entity called God. Most likely in cycles as observable with the universe.

Deep Sight:

Ooops - my bad - sorry i seemed to read that the wrong way like he was saying that was the belief of christians, nothing more.

Vety well then.

You still cannot escape addressing this:

Tell me that this deals with your issues on evil in the world?

There is nothing to address.

I thought God was ominipotent?

Saying the name God followed by stuffs like he can only create world A and cannot guarantee bla bla bla does not follow.

Why call him an ominipotent if he can't do?

There is nothing wrong with world B. What is the purpose of existence according to religions if not for the glorification of God, you don't need free will to do that.

Creating a world A is just irresponsible and the creator should take responsibility. According to easy logic, God cannot guarantee people will not choose to do evil.

Faced with such a knwoledge you went ahead and created then blame the creation for evil and throw him into fire for eternity. . .does that not sound stupid?

Deep Sight:

^^^ Think about it.

Why is the universe expanding?

Why do things grow, and then wither and die?

Just as surely as the universe will die one day when its expansion has burnt up more energy than it can sustain itself with.

It's a self-evident cycle.

It makes sense to view an expansion as a natural protrusion from a centre.

Creation is thus a natural protrusion from the primordial and trasncendental entity called God. Most likely in cycles as observable with the universe.

You can claim anything without evidence and so can I , please phrase your argument well so I can see or do you want me to conclude

Plants grow and wither and die
Ergo
All you see around you is God's expression


Sounds more like a mixtape from a nuthouse studio dont you think?

easylogic:



World A

1. People have complete free will and Evil exists.

World B

1. People do not have Free will and evil does not exist.

World C

1. People have complete Free will and evil does not exist.


Now, no one would want to live in world B,we would be mere Robots,and even good actions could not be regarded as good actions since no one can do otherwise.Why would we say eg Not stealing is a good thing,if stealing is a physical impossibility.

Your special pleading is very absurd. On what basis did you come to the conclusion that people will not want to live in world B? You are really funny that it is sad.

It seems then God can create only World A.Which is similar to our current world.Where people have complete free will and evil exists.

The bible does not talk about free will, there is no such word in the bible, free will is just a concept invented by the apologist to help them explain away some things they just can not explain.

These are questions on justice.As you know Christians believe that every person will be brought to book on the day of judgment.And so justice will be served.The victims,if they embrace Christ,will receive eternal life free of suffering.I can't think of a better Judicial System!

So the best judicial system is to wait for people to recieve judgement after they die? According to your ridiculous submissions all the victims of the holocoust are now languishing in hell because they were jews who did not believe in the Christian mythical saviour. But according to the christian hypothesis those Nazi killers if they repented and accepted Jesus will be in heaven while the victims of the holocoust who were jews and did not believe in Jesus will end up in hell. Is this what you call justice? You are really a pitiful small person. The Christian hypothesis is shameful and a ridiculous lie.

But what about Atheism.What does it offer for the Victims or offenders of these heinous crimes?

Atheism offer the best system of Justice, people should be held responsible for their wrong doings and the justice should be served to the wrongdoers in this life and not in the imaginary after life that exists only in the imaginary fantasies of the religious people. Even the religious try to seek justice here on earth for people that offend them and others around them. If christianity is true then why do they seek justice here on earth, why not allow people to do what ever they want  and go free since they believe that they will get their reward in the next life?

Am afraid nothing.If Atheism is true,and God does not really exist,then there is no eternal life,and everyone will die.So why should an atheist care if a child is molested?The child will eventually die of old age or some other disease or accident.

Are you really this pathetic and irresponsible? This is really really shameful. Where is your sense of empathy? Do you feel empathy only because you  believe some imaginary non existent being will reward you for it? Child molestation is wrong because it is bad for the society at large and not because some imaginary being dislikes it. An atheist cares about the here and now not some imaginary after life that is only a fantasy. Living a life of kindness and compassion towards other human beings does bring rewards if you are good to people they will be good to you and if you are bad to them they will also pay you in kind. I know a guy who went to jail for child molestation. While in prison, he "found god". I guess he finally realized that he needed salvation. And bible study got you out of your cell for an hour. Where was god when this guy was molesting? Too busy helping people find lost jewelry and stuff to get involved, I guess.

5 billion years from now our sun will obliterate the earth and all the planets when it nears its death.

No one will be here to account for anyone sins,let alone the DRC soldiers or victims.If Atheism is true,then in 5 billion years time it will not matter whether you were mother teresa or hitler,no one will be here to account for their actions.It will not make sense to say, " Mother teresa will be remembered for here good actions." because no will be here to remember.If Atheism is true,Hitler,the DRC soldiers the molesting priests and every criminal and sinner will escape with his evils acts in 5 billion years time or sooner if the climate talks are anything to go by.

If Christianity is true then Hitler if he repented and accepts Jesus will be enjoying in all "eternity" while all the 6 million jews he killed will be raosting in hell for all "eternity". If Christianity  true then Moa and all the millions of people he killed will be roasting in hell for "eternity". What kind of senseless fantasy is this? If Christianity is true then so many people that have sacrifised their own happiness to make sure that they gave life and oppurtunities to others will be raosting in hell just because they did not accept Christianity. If Christianity is true the Bill Gates who own the biggest charity organization on earth will go to hell just because he does not believe in the mythical Jesus. Atheism offers the bitter reality and tells people to embrace it and accept it as it. Christianity only offer fantasies and deluded imagnations.

No one will receive a special reward,not the victims of violence nor the perpetrators.The irony is,no one will be punished either.And to top it all up,no will be here to care.

Thats the hopelessness that Atheism offers.

There is nothing hopeless in a world where people are advised to be responsible for their own actions and deal with the here and now. Everything is hopeless when people are made to believe that there are imaginary creatures(demons and devils) causing them to do evil against each other. There is everything wrong with a world view that teaches people not to accept responsibilities for their own actions but to shif it to imaginary beings, There is everything wrng with a world view that encourages people to waste their time think about the imaginary next life while doing little or nothing to help better this present life and world around them. Christianity only offer false hope and delusions.

toneyb you dey try to type long long things for people these days well done oh!

Tudór:

There is nothing to address.

I thought God was ominipotent?

Saying the name God followed by stuffs like he can only create world A and cannot guarantee bla bla bla does not follow.

Why call him an ominipotent if he can't do?

Perhaps i will address with you the question of omnipotence with you at a later stage. I have a hugely important teleconference in about 15 minutes so i gotta be brief here. But let me just say that omnipotence does not mean that God can do irrational things. Such as destroy himself for example, or creat ea stone that is impossible for him to lift and then lift it. Omnipotence should be understood within the context of highest power which operates along given laws and precepts. Later i will return to explain so that you will see that all things in existence are rational things only and that illogicalities are not capable of existing. Thus God cannot be illogical.

There is nothing wrong with world B. What is the purpose of existence according to religions if not for the glorification of God, you don't need free will to do that.

Creating a world A is just irresponsible and the creator should take responsibility. According to easy logic, God cannot guarantee people will not choose to do evil.

Faced with such a knwoledge you went ahead and created then blame the creation for evil and throw him into fire for eternity. . .does that not sound silly?

Following on my explanation above, you should see that a creation of freebeings rationally cannot also be a creation where the deeds of such beings are restricted or circumscribed. Pre-programming is a contradiction of freedom, and this is logically impossible even for God!

Thus you must accept that World C is an impossibility.

Will be back.

ToneyB -

Be honest - you really want to be a robot? Oh please!

Atheism is a big lie. Because they pretend to know that God does not exist. THEY DON'T.

Theism is also a big lie. Because they pretend to know God exists. THEY DON'T!!

Me, I'm just confused. But that I know for sure.

aletheia says, "God did not create the world with evil; it is the result of sin."

Is this claim not self-contradictory?If God did not create the world with evil, whence comes sin?What is the source of sin?Why does it even exist?If the world was created free of evil, then sin should not have existed to the point of being the source of evil in the world.

Like I said in an earlier post:

"Evil is indeed a very difficult problem. This is not because it is philosophically or theologically difficult but because it is emotionally difficult. In seeking to respond to the problem of evil we are pitting real pain versus abstract concepts. Emotion versus intellect makes for an uneven fight—how do you argue against an emotion? Thus, responses to the problem of evil are generally seen as heartless or dry-as-dust theorizing.

Yet, biblically and philosophically a third option is that God wants to abolish evil and can, yet He functions on his own timing and He has not done it yet because He has a higher purpose in allowing evil to persist for a time.
God did not create the world with evil; it is the result of sin."

Humans - atheists and non-atheists alike - have emotional issues with pain, suffering, death & other forms of evil. Hence arguments about the child raped in the DRC, Hitler and so on. Within us is hard-wired a demand for justice. Thus despite their professed inclinations, atheists cannot quite bring themselves to say: "Hitler was absolutely right to exterminate 6 million Jews". So the atheist's dilemma becomes:
1. Is something good because atheists proclaim it to be good?
2. Or, do atheists proclaim something to be good, because it is good?

If something is good merely because an atheist proclaims it to be good, then goodness is an arbitrary construct and at the whim of atheists who could change that which is good into that which is bad and vice versa. Or is there is something up, above, beyond and separate from the atheist to which the atheist must adhere—does the atheist have to act according to an ethical standard that is outside of the individual, in which case the atheist is not all sufficient and in fact, obeys a higher standard than the individual (or a group of individuals known as a society).

Atheists make the presumption of thinking that God has to function on their own timing. He doesn't owe them that. This parable is for them.
On a certain railtrack, everyday at 5 o' clock, the express train goes by. One day an ant crawled unto the railtrack at 2 o' clock and screamed at the top of its voice: "If there is a train, I give it five minutes to run me down". At 5 minutes past 2 o' clock, it triumphantly declared; "See! There is no train!" Of course, we all know that if it had crawled on to the track at 5 o' clock, the result would have been "SPLAT!" --- obliteration.

Of course atheists will dismiss the answer provided for them in the bible: "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead." And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked, while others said, "We will hear you again on this matter." AND "just as it is appointed for man to die [/b]once, and after that comes [b]judgment"

Deep Sight:

Perhaps i will address with you the question of omnipotence with you at a later stage. I have a hugely important teleconference in about 15 minutes so i gotta be brief here. But let me just say that omnipotence does not mean that God can do irrational things. Such as destroy himself for example, or creat ea stone that is impossible for him to lift and then lift it. Omnipotence should be understood within the context of highest power which operates along given laws and precepts. Later i will return to explain so that you will see that all things in existence are rational things only and that illogicalities are not capable of existing. Thus God cannot be illogical.

Following on my explanation above, you should see that a creation of freebeings rationally cannot also be a creation where the deeds of such beings are restricted or circumscribed. Pre-programming is a contradiction of freedom, and this is logically impossible even for God!

Thus you must accept that World C is an impossibility.

Will be back.

What is irrational about creating a world without evil and free will for the greater good?

Does it not sound irrational for a god knowing he can't guarantee the absence of evil if he created the world with free will then still went ahead to do so?

God is supposed to be all knowing right so he in essence knows which choices I'm going to make so what is the rationale behind the whole dance around since God knows where everybody would end up. Infact this whole god thing makes no sense!

jagunlabi:

aletheia says, "God did not create the world with evil; it is the result of sin."

Is this claim not self-contradictory?If God did not create the world with evil, whence comes sin?What is the source of sin?Why does it even exist?If the world was created free of evil, then sin should not have existed to the point of being the source of evil in the world.

If you genuinely seek answers to those questions, you will find them here:

easylogic says, "It seems then God can create only World A.Which is similar to our current world.Where people have complete free will and evil exists."

If this is the case, then it would only indicate that God created world A purposefully and with a full knowledge of the subsequent consequences of evil's existence.
So my question is this, "why does God(according to christian doctrine) get all hot and bothered with evil to such an extent that a place of everlasting torture and torment should and would be prepared for mankind, if he was in full acceptance with creating world A in the beginning?"

Tudór:

The way you consistently lie and misrepresent me is sinful, isn't it?
Why bother with constituted authority and the human judicial system since according to mr easy logic the judiciary of christ the the ultimate in perfection.

Even your lying faith recognises humans are capable of according justice and we need no magician in the sky to help. . . .what does that say about religion?What the fuadck is noetic talking about?

blah blah blah. . . .  .I can always expect u to twist ur arguments anytime u are caught out  

Christ judgement is eternal and determines ur fate at eternity. . . .human judgement is for here and determines the pathway of ur definite life.
why is this reality so obscure for u, tudor?  

Are you now saying that during the era of the law there was nothing like eternal life /after life and every dead soul remained dead?

Noetic. . . .noetic. . . .noetic. . . .ha!!

yes bro, every soul that died before the coming of Christ remained dead. . . oyedepo should have taught u that  

jagunlabi:

aletheia says, "God did not create the world with evil; it is the result of sin."

Is this claim not self-contradictory?If God did not create the world with evil, whence comes sin?What is the source of sin?Why does it even exist?If the world was created free of evil, then sin should not have existed to the point of being the source of evil in the world.

If you genuinely seek answers to those questions, you will find them here: THE BIBLE.
Make sure to read the first three chapters.

easylogic says, "As you know Christians believe that every person will be brought to book on the day of judgment.And so justice will be served.[b]The victims,if they embrace Christ,will receive eternal life free of suffering.[/b]I can't think of a better Judicial System!"

And if they did not "embrace christ"(which translates to "embracing christian doctrines", the same victims will recieve eternal life of suffering, right?
I can think of a much better judicial system that is free of such religious prejudices.A victim is a victim and is entitled to proper justice, no matter which worldview he or she holds, right?

noetic15:


blah blah blah. . . .  .I can always expect u to twist your arguments anytime u are caught out  

Christ judgement is eternal and determines your fate at eternity. . . .human judgement is for here and determines the pathway of your definite life.
why is this reality so obscure for u, tudor?  

In other words human laws are well able to dispense justice hence we do not need that of christ. . .thank you.

yes bro, every soul that died before the coming of Christ remained dead. . . oyedepo should have taught u that  

Hmmm. . .why was a 'dead' moses shining his 'dead' face during the transfiguration with christ on the mount?

Yes, i am genuinely seeking answers and i have read that book and the first three verses and the answers are not there.I was hoping you might provide them since you are the one making the claims.

aletheia:

If you genuinely seek answers to those questions, you will find them here: THE BIBLE.
Make sure to read the first three chapters.