Jesus is simply a manifestation of Gods promise in human form who came to die for our sins(john 3:16). There is no need to argue about whether he is a prophet becuase he is NOT a prophet, he is greater that that because he is a Divine Being. What is going on here is called a False Analogy: Comparing two things as if they are parallel when they are not really the same at all.  I.e Moses and Jesus. with Mohammed and moses. In christianity that is not the foundation of our belief by seeing who has more in common with moses, then hurray they are the true path.  Theres more to it that that pal!, Luckily within christianity  there are too many revelations of Jesus and who he is, and what would happen,

  old testament. Isa.53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

    new testament- Mt 27:38 Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. (Mk 15:27-28; Lk 23:33)


Resurrection of Jesus: Hosea 6:2, Psalms 16:10, 49:15, Luke 24:6-7, Mark.16:6-7.
 old test - Hos.6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
  new test - Lk.24:6-7 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

@mimi4eva,

mimi4eva:

Jesus is simply a manifestation of Gods promise in human form who came to die for our sins(john 3:16). There is no need to argue about whether he is a prophet becuase he is NOT a prophet, he is greater that that because he is a Divine Being.

While it is true that Jesus is greater than a prophet, the Bible affirms that He is the Prophet prophesied in Deuteronomy 18:15 & 18. The folowing bear this out:

John 6:14 - 'Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.'

John 7:40 - 'Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.'

What we should understand in the prophecy of Deut. 18 is that the Jesus was not limited as merely a Prophet - He was truly that, and much more.

Thanks stimulus thats the point i was trying to make, that whilst jesus is revalation of deut he his also greater than that and so much more which is why id personally choose not to compare him to anyone else, I just wanted to emphasise his greatness.

@mimi4eva

Based on your post, Jesus can never be like Moses because he was God while Moses was not.

I wonder what you people think when you keep saying that God took human form and came to die for the sin of man

God the creator, coming to die for the sin committed by his creation!!!

To the issue of 3rd day, did he really rise on the third day?

We will shed more light on that when we get to the only sign he told the jews which is "the sign of Jonah"  and from there, we will know if he was really killed, crucified and rose the third day.

Peace



@stimulus

It seems you are tired of sitting down and looking and decided to contribute .

Thanks for the contribution anyway.


#While it is true that Jesus is greater than a prophet,#

What is he is he is more than a prophet?



#the Bible affirms that He is the Prophet prophesied in Deuteronomy 18:15 & 18. The folowing bear this out#:

Brother, you are still claiming that the prophesy rested on him despite my explanation on the similarities and differences among them.



#John 6:14 - 'Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.'

John 7:40 - 'Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.'#

Are the above verses referring to Deuteronomy 18 v 18? What is the proof?



#What we should understand in the prophecy of Deut. 18 is that the Jesus was not limited as merely a Prophet - He was truly that, and much more.#


Brother, based on your statement above, it can be seen that the prophesy was not for Jesus because you claimed that Jesus was more than a prophet while Moses was not more than a prophet.

Dont worry, we will get to the root of the prophesy when we get to the phrase "from among your brethren", "I will put my words in his mouth" etc.

Stay glued

@babs787,

babs787:

It seems you are tired of sitting down and looking and decided to contribute .

You're erudite in your observation, bro. I don tire for all the roundabout debate, so I just felt like clearing up that line earlier.

babs787:

Thanks for the contribution anyway.

You, too. All the same, I don't suppose that my interest would be kindled in long-winding arguments.

babs787:

#While it is true that Jesus is greater than a prophet,#

What is he is he is more than a prophet?

Yep - He is the Prophet, the divine Priest, the Redeemer, the Saviour, the Mighty God, and the Son of God, besides a few others.

babs787:

#the Bible affirms that He is the Prophet prophesied in Deuteronomy 18:15 & 18. The folowing bear this out#:

Brother, you are still claiming that the prophesy rested on him despite my explanation on the similarities and differences among them.

Yep again - and my claim stands as stated, because your explanation simply missed out the gist of Deut. 18:15 & 18.

babs787:

#John 6:14 - 'Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.'

John 7:40 - 'Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.'#

Are the above verses referring to Deuteronomy 18 v 18? What is the proof?

The verses actually are referring to the Prophet long expected according to Deuteronomy 18. Proof - exactly as stated in those verses.

babs787:

#What we should understand in the prophecy of Deut. 18 is that the Jesus was not limited as merely a Prophet - He was truly that, and much more.#

Brother, based on your statement above, it can be seen that the prophesy was not for Jesus because you claimed that Jesus was more than a prophet while Moses was not more than a prophet.

The fact that Moses proclaimed Him as 'Prophet' should not mean that the other roles be negated. I wonder why the Qur'an recognizes that Jesus is the Messiah (Christ) even though Moses did not call Him the Messiah. So, how did Muhammad get the idea that Jesus must be the Messiah, and then again Muslims have no idea what that appellation 'CHRIST' means.

babs787:

Dont worry, we will get to the root of the prophesy when we get to the phrase "from among your brethren", "I will put my words in his mouth" etc.

Stay glued

I'll be patient until then, although again I'm not at all interested in superfluous debates.

Yep - He is the Prophet, the divine Priest, the Redeemer, the Saviour, the Mighty God, and the Son of God, besides a few others.


Brother, your post amaze him. How could you be equating God with ordinary person? Jesus was the Mighty God that transformed himself and took the shape of man while Moses never did this



Quote from: babs787 on Today at 10:21:47 AM
#John 6:14 - 'Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.'

John 7:40 - 'Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.'#


The verses actually are referring to the Prophet long expected according to Deuteronomy 18. Proof - exactly as stated in those verses.

Again, the above verses do not refer to Deut. 18 v 18. Was Jesus th only prophet that was prophesised?

In the New Testament times, we find that the jews were still expecting the fulfilment of the prophesy of ONE LIKE MOSES", refer John 1 v 19 - 25. When Jesus claimed to be the Messiah of the Jews, the Jews began to enquire as to where was Elias? The Jews had a parallel prophecy that before the coming of the Messiah, Elias must come first. Jesus confirms thsi Jewish belief:

Mathew 17 v 11-13: ,,, Elias truly shall first come and restore all things. But I say unto you, that Elias is come already and they knew him not,,,then the disciples understoood that he spake unto them of John the baptist.

So the above verses do not state that that it has any relationship to that of the book of Deut 18 v 18.




The fact that Moses proclaimed Him as 'Prophet' should not mean that the other roles be negated. I wonder why the Qur'an recognizes that Jesus is the Messiah (Christ) even though Moses did not call Him the Messiah. So, how did Muhammad get the idea that Jesus must be the Messiah, and then again Muslims have no idea what that appellation 'CHRIST' means.

Muslim do understand but maybe you are the one that do not understand
"Messiah" is just a title given to Jesus and no special attribute given to it. Non-Living things were also given that name.

The word 'christ' is derived from the Hebrew word 'messiah", Arabic 'Masih". Root word masaha, meaning 'to rub', to massage', to anoint. Priests were anointed when being consecrated to their offices. But in its translation, Grecian form 'christ', it seems unique. befitting jesus only.

Messiah in Hebrew means anointed. The Greek word for anointed is 'christos'. Just remove the 'os' from christos and you are left with christ!. Now change the little 'c' to a capital C and you will have created a unique name!

Christos means Anointed and anointed means Appointed in its religious connotation. Non Living things were also anointed.


FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN

Moses and his people, the jews are here addressed as a racial entity and as such their 'brethren' undoubtedly be the Arabs. The holy bible speaks of Abraham as the 'friend of God'. Abraham had two wives - Sarah and Hagar. Hagar bore Abraham a son - His first born - ;; And Abram called his son's name which Hagar bare, Ishmael (Gen 16 v 15). And Abraham took Ishmael his son,,, (Gen 17 v 23) . And Ishmael his son was 13 years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin (Gen 17 v 25). Up to the age of 13 Ishmael was the only son and seed of Abraham, when the covenant was ratified between God and Abraham. God grants Abraham another son through Sarah named Isaac, who was very much the junior to his brother.

If Ishmael ad Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham, then tye are brothers. And so the children of the one are the Brethren of the children of the other.

The children of Isaac are the jews and the children of Ishmael are the Arabs - so they are brethren to one another. The bible affirms .

and he (Ishmael) shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren (gen 16 v 12)

,, and he Ishmael died in the presence of all his brethren (gen 25 v 18)

The children of Isaac are the brethren of the Ishmaelites. In like manner Muhammed is from among the brethren of the Israelites because he was a descendant of Ishmael the so of Abraham

This is exactly as the prophecy has it - 'from among their brethren' (deut 18 v 18). There the prophecy distinctly mentions that the coming prophet who would be like Moses must arise NOT from the 'children of Israel' or from 'among themselves' BUT from 'among their brethren'

From here, I will move to 'words in his mouth'

@babs787,

babs787:

Brother, your post amaze him. How could you be equating God with ordinary person? Jesus was the Mighty God that transformed himself and took the shape of man while Moses never did this

This is why I stated earlier that debates and arguments do not interest me just for the mere sake of them. Jesus was not an 'ordinary person', for if He was simply that, then Muhammad could easily have done the very same things He did.

babs787:


Quote from: babs787 on Today at 10:21:47 AM
#John 6:14 - 'Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.'

John 7:40 - 'Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.'#


The verses actually are referring to the Prophet long expected according to Deuteronomy 18. Proof - exactly as stated in those verses.

Again, the above verses do not refer to Deut. 18 v 18. Was Jesus th only prophet that was prophesised?

Jesus was not the only prophet prophesied in the OT - Elijah was also prophesied to come as His forerunner (Matt. 17:10-13). That said, Muhammad does not qualify as the Deut. 18 Prophet.

babs787:

In the New Testament times, we find that the jews were still expecting the fulfilment of the prophesy of ONE LIKE MOSES", refer John 1 v 19 - 25. When Jesus claimed to be the Messiah of the Jews, the Jews began to enquire as to where was Elias? The Jews had a parallel prophecy that before the coming of the Messiah, Elias must come first. Jesus confirms thsi Jewish belief:

Mathew 17 v 11-13: ,,, Elias truly shall first come and restore all things. But I say unto you, that Elias is come already and they knew him not,,,then the disciples understoood that he spake unto them of John the baptist.

Like I stated earlier, Elijah was to come as the forerunner, and that prophecy was fulfilled in the person of John the Baptist in the same reference quoted which you have partly cited (Matt. 17:10-13).

Notice also that the prophecy of the second prophet like Elijah is as John the Baptist himself testified - "He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias" (John 1:23). That answers the question of the disciples in Matt. 17:10 - 'Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?'

babs787:

So the above verses do not state that that it has any relationship to that of the book of Deut 18 v 18.

That may be as far as verbatim statements go. Neither does your assumption of Muhammad in Deut. 18:18 bear any substance. However, it is significant that in the same Matthew 17, Moses appeared on the mount with Elijah (vs. 3). Have you given that some consideration?

babs787:

The fact that Moses proclaimed Him as 'Prophet' should not mean that the other roles be negated. I wonder why the Qur'an recognizes that Jesus is the Messiah (Christ) even though Moses did not call Him the Messiah. So, how did Muhammad get the idea that Jesus must be the Messiah, and then again Muslims have no idea what that appellation 'CHRIST' means.

Muslim do understand but maybe you are the one that do not understand
"Messiah" is just a title given to Jesus and no special attribute given to it. Non-Living things were also given that name.

I'm sorry to read that Muslims understand 'CHRIST' as merely a title, and yet have not been bold enough to use it for Muhammad as well. In the same way, I may assume that Muhammad's title as the 'Rasool of Allah' is a mere title that non-living things were called. Not even the Qur'an assumes the "Messiah" is as you claim.

babs787:

The word 'christ' is derived from the Hebrew word 'messiah", Arabic 'Masih". Root word masaha, meaning 'to rub', to massage', to anoint. Priests were anointed when being consecrated to their offices. But in its translation, Grecian form 'christ', it seems unique. befitting jesus only.

Messiah in Hebrew means anointed. The Greek word for anointed is 'christos'. Just remove the 'os' from christos and you are left with christ!. Now change the little 'c' to a capital C and you will have created a unique name!

Christos means Anointed and anointed means Appointed in its religious connotation. Non Living things were also anointed.

There - the uniqueness of Jesus as the Christ is not something to be debated endlessly as to assume your earlier claim. By the way, I wonder why Muhammad was not "anointed" as a Prophet, since anointed simply means "Appointed".

babs787:

FROM AMONG THEIR BRETHREN

Moses and his people, the jews are here addressed as a racial entity and as such their 'brethren' undoubtedly be the Arabs. The holy bible speaks of Abraham as the 'friend of God'. Abraham had two wives - Sarah and Hagar. Hagar bore Abraham a son - His first born - ;; And Abram called his son's name which Hagar bare, Ishmael (Gen 16 v 15). And Abraham took Ishmael his son,,, (Gen 17 v 23) . And Ishmael his son was 13 years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin (Gen 17 v 25). Up to the age of 13 Ishmael was the only son and seed of Abraham, when the covenant was ratified between God and Abraham. God grants Abraham another son through Sarah named Isaac, who was very much the junior to his brother.

If Ishmael ad Isaac are the sons of the same father Abraham, then tye are brothers. And so the children of the one are the Brethren of the children of the other.

The children of Isaac are the jews and the children of Ishmael are the Arabs - so they are brethren to one another. The bible affirms .

and he (Ishmael) shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren (gen 16 v 12)

,, and he Ishmael died in the presence of all his brethren (gen 25 v 18)

The children of Isaac are the brethren of the Ishmaelites. In like manner Muhammed is from among the brethren of the Israelites because he was a descendant of Ishmael the so of Abraham

This is exactly as the prophecy has it - 'from among their brethren' (deut 18 v 18). There the prophecy distinctly mentions that the coming prophet who would be like Moses must arise NOT from the 'children of Israel' or from 'among themselves' BUT from 'among their brethren'

Fascinating how you derive this idea. It seems plausible, but lacks substance in as far as you throw back on the affinity between Isaac and Ishmael, while leaving out the core patriarch from whom descended the Jews - JACOB.

Besides, to argue the filiation back to Abraham between Isaac and Ishmael is to ignore the other sons of the patriarch. Abraham had other sons by his second wife Keturah: they were Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak, Shuah (Gen. 25:1-2). Are these not brethren to Isaac as well; and therefore could also have contended the same case of being the "brethren to one another"?

But what about the Muslim argument that the phrase "from among their brethren" must be pointing to the Arab descendants of Ishmael? Actually, this argument is unsubstantiated and untenable for two reasons:

#1. It is obvious that the phrase was particularly addressing the twelve tribes of Israel in Deut. 18:15 & 18. In issues of Jewish theocracy, God appoints Jews (not Gentiles or non-Jews) as kings, priests and prophets unto Israel. This is borne out in Deut. 17:15 -

"Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren[/b]shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest [b]not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother." (See also Lev. 25:46 - "your brethren the children of Israel"

It is clear that 'from among their brethren' points to Jews and not to non-Israelites. In any case, no Arab was ever appointed as prophet or priest over the Jews.

#2. Secondly, that Deut. 18 was not pointing to the Arab descendants of Ishmael is borne out by the fact that, there were others who were far more qualified to be called "brethren/brothers" to the Israelites.

Ishmael was the Egyptian half-brother of Isaac, rather than brother to JACOB (Gen. 25:12). It is rather Esau that was brother to Jacob (Gen. 25:25-26; and Deut. 2:4 - "the coast of your brethren the children of Esau, which dwell in Seir". It is also from Esau that the Edomites descended (Gen. 32:3; 36:1, 8 & 9). That is why the Israelites could speak of the Edomites (rather than the Ishmaelites) as "brother" --

"And Moses sent messengers from Kadesh unto the king of Edom, Thus saith thy brother Israel, Thou knowest all the travail that hath befallen us" - Num. 20:14.

For simpler illustration:

ISAAC  ==(brethren)== ISHMAEL

JACOB ==(brethren)== ESAU (EDOMITES)

Now we can see how so very glaring it is that Deut. 18:15 & 18 was not pointing to the Arabs (Ishmaelites) nor Edomites. Rather, the Jews understood that the Prophet was to emerge from their midst - from among the twelve tribes of Israel, as no Arab was appointed as 'prophet' or 'priest' over israel.

babs787:

From here, I will move to 'words in his mouth'

Do so. Cheers.

Funny how my dear blabs787 is struggling to insert Mohammed into a bible he claims has been corrupted.
I wonder how many christians bother themselves trying so hard to insert Jesus into the quran. Does that tell me some religions suffer from a huge lack of credibility?

That is the same question I'm asking.
How can the Bible be corrupted yet Mohammed was predicted in the same corrupted texts?
The mullah that came up with that must have been on ogogoro

@babs787,

Just a few more comments on the misconceptions you posted earlier.

babs787:

That’s the hypocrisy we have been talking.
Somebody will go scot free for saying something so far he/she is a christian but muslims will always be penalised for the same act.

By "the same act" you make it sound like you're actually engaging in what was alleged against you. There's really no point in making all those statements just to assure your readers that you're not lifting articles from other websites. The same could be said of anyone until proven otherwise; but what is important is that posters on the Forum should be able to reason for themselves.

babs787:

Moses was not a Jew but a Levi

exodus 2 v 1-2: During this time, a man and woman from the tribe of Levi got married. The woman became pregnant and gave birth to a son.

Your first assumption only shows how narrowly you debate issues. As pointed out earlier, it is like saying Muhammad was not an 'Arab' but a Quraish. What is the difference between a 'Jew' (common name for the Israelites) and a Levite (one of the tribes of Israel)? If 'Jews' and 'Israelites' are two different nations, please show us.

babs787:

The name ‘Jacob’ was changed to Israel after wrestling with God. The descendants of Jacob were Israelites consisting of the twelve tribe. Judah was nicknamed ‘jew’ so that only Judah’s descendants were called Jews originally.

You're correct in that inference from II Kings 16:1 & 6. Although that seems the case, the Bible also shows that the Jews were known to include all twelve tribes of Israel (Jer. 34:9). Mordecai was a Benjamite (another tribe of Israel) and was called a Jew (Esther 2:5; 5:13).

babs787:

So Moses was not a jew because he did not descend from Judah but a Levite. He was a ‘law giver’ to the children of Israel.

Now, since it is rather difficult for you to see this point, let's take Moses for what the Bible says he was actually called - a Hebrew (Exo. 2:6). The Israelites were also called Hebrews - from their heritage in connection with the name of God (Exo. 5:3); and this brings us back to what Abraham was called - a Hebrew (Gen. 14:13). You find here that Abraham, the Israelites, and Moses were not known as Arabs; and this fact should make you realize that Muhammad was not at all the Prophet like unto Moses in Deut. 18:15 & 18.

Levi descended from Jacob and was also part of the twelve tribes known collectively as the Jews (Jer. 34:9). No stranger from outside the twelve tribes could possibly have been chosen to give the Law unto the Israelites.

Further, Moses also was clear as to what he meant by 'thy brethren' in Deut. 18:15 - he was referring to the Israelites themselves, and not to the Arabs. Compare this with Deut. 15:12 - "And if thy brother, an Hebrew man, or an Hebrew woman. . ." Now since this establishes the fact that the Prophet like unto Moses was to be a Hebrew also, the question to ask is: was Jesus Christ from the Hebrews (that is, from the Jews/Israelites); or, was He an Arab? And if Muhammad was not a Hebrew or Jew, how do you force-fit him into Deut. 18:15 & 18, especially as noted that NO ARAB was appointed/anointed as prophet or priest to Israel?

babs787:

#2. Moses was a Monogamist while Muhammad was a polygamist.

Well, both of them married while Jesus never did. You claimed that Muhammed preached Polygamy while Jesus and Moses preached Monogamy, can you please bring out from the bible where it is said that you must not marry more than one wife as said by both of them.

Marital status is not a criteria in profiling who the Prophet was according to the prophecy of Deut. 18. For references about monogamy as taught by Moses and Jesus, please see Gen. 2:24; Mark 10:3-8. Moses himself had one wife (Exo. 4:20 & 18:2, 5); unlike Muhammad who had several.

babs787:

#6. No one knows where Moses was buried, while Mohammeds grave is known.

Here, they were all buried but Jesus rose the 3rd day (as put by Christians) while muhammed and moses never did that.

At least it is recorded that Moses was present on the mount of transfiguration with Jesus (Luke 9:30) - which was not at all recorded about Muhammad being with either of them.

babs787:

#7. Moses had numerous eye witnesses to his divine encounters while Muhammad had nothing.

Muhammed did too.

This is why it is important to ask if Muhammad actually performed miracles in such powerful manifestations as was the case in the identical miracles of Moses and Jesus. Other prophets in the Bible also performed miracles (Joshua, Elijah, Elisha, to name a few). But the miracles between Moses and Jesus are so identical and powerful that Muhammad could not boast of the same qualifications as to assume the fulfillment of Deut. 18.

Also, it is commonly held in Islam that Muhammad performed no miracles.

babs787:

#9. Moses performed miracles, while Muhammad did not.

He performed many miracles just like in the above

a. Water coming out of his finger in which it was used for ablution for many people.
b. He made the moon split into two
c. His ascension to heaven to bring the five daily compulsory prayers

Could you please delineate the "many miracles" you believe Muhammad performed besides those three? These 'miracles' are no miracles at all that would qualify Muhammad as the prophet of Deut. 18. It is arguable that the moon was split in two other than a mere claim in Islam. Even so, these miracles do not model those performed by Moses, and therefore Muhammad clearly fails to meet any criteria here.

babs787:

#10. Moses saw God face to face while Muhammad did not.

Muhammed saw God too during his ascension to heaven

Read:
Quran 17 v 1

Almighty Allah had said: Glorified (and Exalted) be He (Allah) (above all that evil they associate with Him), Who took His slave Muhammad for a journey by night from AL Masjid al Haram (at Makka) to the farthest mosque (in Jerusalem), the neighborhood whereof We have blessed, order that We might show him (Muhammad) of Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, lessons, signs, etc.). Verily, He is the All Hearer, the All Seer."

I had hoped to read in that ayat(?) that Muhammad saw 'God face to face' - but where did it say so? It is clear he did not. If it was only a matter of being shown Allah's ayat, how does that equate to seeing God face to face?

Now, as regards the question of your bold assertion, I would say that some Muslims today for argument sake claim that Muhammad saw God (or Allah) "face to face" just like Moses did. To be honest with you, only very few rascally Muslims take that view; whereas, Islamic sources deny that Muhammad ever saw God/Allah. Let me reference a few texts:

In the Qur'an, we read in Sura 6: 102-103:
"That is Allah, your Lord! there is no god but He, the Creator of all things: then worship ye Him: and He hath power to dispose of all affairs. No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things."
Although Muslims may argue that verse whichever way they choose, here are a few clear pointers in the Hadith that reveal the testimony of Muhammad's favorite wife Aisha on the matter:

Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol.9, Book 93, # 477

Narrated Masruq:
'Aisha said, "If anyone tells you that Muhammad has seen his Lord, he is a liar,
for Allah says: 'No vision can grasp Him.' (6.103) And if anyone tells you that Muhammad
has seen the Unseen, he is a liar, for Allah says: "None has the knowledge
of the Unseen but Allah."

See also Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, Book 60, #378 where the same thing is expressed in greater detail.

Please note that I'm not, and never was, a Muslim; nor am I claiming to be an authority on the Qur'an. However, no honest soul would check the references offered and come away denying what they reveal against the brazen assertion that Muhammad saw God. Therefore, as is commonly held in Islam that no one could see God, this clearly negates your claim that Muhammad saw Him.

babs787:

In the twelfth year of his mission, the Prophet made his night journey from Mecca to Jerusalem, and thence to heaven. His journey, known in history as Miraj (Ascension) was a real bodily one and not only a vision. It was at this time that Allah ordered the Muslims to pray the five daily prayers.

Sorry, but that verse you quoted mentions nothing about Muhammad ascending to heaven. It simply claims that Muhammad was taken to Jerusalem, and no more.

babs787:

If you have read the verse very well, you would have seen the phrase, 'Like unto thee". Like unto thee here means that the prophet that the phrase refers to must have similarities with jesus.

What verse are you about - Deut 18: 15 & 18? And perhaps you meant to say instead, 'must have similarities with Moses'?

babs787:

So here, you are being one sided, acting on my unlikes to derive your own unlikes and never bother to go into the similarities between moses and jesus.

Okay, your allegation is noted. In due course the similarities will follow.

babs787:

For better clarification, below are the similarities again:

Eight similarities between Moses and Muhammed

1. Father and Mother
2. Miraculous Birth
3. Marriage Ties
4. Jesus rejected by his people
5. Other worldly kingdom
6. No new laws
7. How they departed
8. Heavenly abode.

You're reharshing the same argument already discussed; but let me offer you soundbite responses again:

#1. Father and mother would also mean that there were many prophets who qualified as much, and not only Muhammad.
#2. What is the miraculous birth between Moses and Muhammed?
#3. Marital status is no criteria; as in the case with #1, many prophets also were married. Besides, that would even be a disimilarity between them, because Moses had only one wife while Muhammad was said to have more than a dozen.
#4. Does the rejection of Jesus by His own people establish the similarities between Moses and Muhammad?
#5. Already discussed earlier; this fails to make Muhammad the prophet of Deut. 18.
#6. No new Laws - as a similarity between Moses and Muhammad?
#7. The departure of Muhammad was very unlike that of Moses.
#8. If 'heavenly abode' counts, then where is Jesus Christ - is He not in heaven?

Brother stimulus. May God bless you as you patiently attempt to extricate the ostrich's head from the sand of islam.

@stimulus

Am not here to argue blindly with you because no matter what you are being told, be it the truth, you will never accept as long as it is not in your favour. So am not posting to win argument or whatever but for others to read and judge. I wonder why you lay claim to some prophecy in the bible despite the fact jesus was never mentioned but very quick at rebuffing that of the prophet of Islam. Have you for one day gone through the Aramaic bible to verify my claim? Am leaving you to your drivel but will like to correct your spurious post:


#1. Father and mother would also mean that there were many prophets who qualified as much, and not only Muhammad.

Jesus did not qualify for the prophecy here which you are very aware of. Muhammed qualified more than Jesus. Why bringing the issue of other prophet when we are comparing the three prophets? We are looking at the things in common with the three prophets



#2. What is the miraculous birth between Moses and Muhammed?

Were the two of them (Moses and Muhammed) not conceived through the normal intercourse between husband and wife? Is that the situation of Jesus too? Was he conceived through intercourse between husband and wife?



#3. Marital status is no criteria; as in the case with #1, many prophets also were married. Besides, that would even be a disimilarity between them, because Moses had only one wife while Muhammad was said to have more than a dozen.


It is not a disimilarity. Do you equate someone that marry regardless of the number of wives to someone that doesnt? Moses married, though one wife and Muhammed married too but more than one wife while jesus didnt even marry at all. What can be infer here is that they both married but one having a wife and another more than one, while Jesus never marry. Is someone that has married the same as someone that has never?



#4. Does the rejection of Jesus by His own people establish the similarities between Moses and Muhammad?


So you dont know that it has? Moses and Muhammed were first rejected by their people but accepted during their life while jesus was never accepted during his lifetime.



#5. Already discussed earlier; this fails to make Muhammad the prophet of Deut. 18.

There are instances in the bible of persons who were given gift of prophecy only but they were not in a position to implement their directives. Some of these holy men of God who were helpless in the face of stubborn rejection of their message were Jonah, Daniel, Ezra, John the Baptist etc. They could only deliver the message but could not enforce the law. The Holy prophet jesus belonged to this category. It was confirmed in the Gospel when he was dragged before the Roman Governor, Pilate. Conclusively, both Moses and Muhammed not only delivered message but also enforced it. They were kings, ruler etc during their time and were feared by their followers.



#6. No new Laws - as a similarity between Moses and Muhammad?

Yes if you do not know. Moses and Muhammed came with new laws while Jesus came to act on the already existing laws. (Mathew 5 v 17 - 18)



#7. The departure of Muhammad was very unlike that of Moses.

How? Both of them died natural death while Jesus was crucified as put by christians.



#8. If 'heavenly abode' counts, then where is Jesus Christ - is He not in heaven?

Hey, am not saying that he is not. Moses and Muhammed both lied buried in earth while Jesus was not. Moses and Muhammed did not arise after third day while Jesus did as put by christians.



@davidylan

Is your bible the ostrich head?

babs787:

@mimi4eva

Based on your post, Jesus can never be like Moses because he was God while Moses was not.

So you actually believe Jesus is now God?

@pataki, Tosin

Longest time.


#So you actually believe Jesus is now God?#


I do not believe. Its a blasphemy. I used the above as being said by you and your friends.

@ babs787,

babs787:

@pataki, Tosin

Longest time.


#So you actually believe Jesus is now God?#


I do not believe. Its a blasphemy. I used the above as being said by you and your friends.

Yes oh been a long while i think. Been in the refining fire all the while, as well busy exploring nations around me. How did you get my name sef? Anyways you are sounding a bit more intelligent now as your postings on nairaland increases.

Well once again, I reiterate that Jesus is God ok!

mrpataki:

@ babs787,
Anyways you are sounding a bit more intelligent now as your postings on nairaland increases.

@pataki,
Are you really sure of that?; look at this statement from the erudite 'blabs101':

Quote from: babs787 on March 27, 2007, 12:58 PM

Moses was not a Jew but a Levi

This is synonymous with "blabs' is not a Nigerian but a Yoruba man." I think he is now more confused than before, because "in numerous words, there is,,,,,,,,,,,,,(guess what). If he honestly takes time to ponder over the posts of those taking time to reply him, he would have been better. But in a rush to reply from the islamic dogmatic mindset, he makes "intelligent" statements like the one displayed above.

@pataki

#Well once again, I reiterate that Jesus is God ok! #


Okay sir  




@stimulus


I'm sorry to read that Muslims understand 'CHRIST' as merely a title, and yet have not been bold enough to use it for Muhammad as well. In the same way, I may assume that Muhammad's title as the 'Rasool of Allah' is a mere title that non-living things were called. Not even the Qur'an assumes the "Messiah" is as you claim.


I was about leaving the thread when I re-read your above post. If you do not accept the word' christ' as being a title, let me have your meaning of it.

Below are verses where the word 'anointed’ is used

Genesis 31 v 13: ,,, I am God of Beth-el, where you anoint a pillar ,,,,


Leviticus 4 v 3: if the priest that is anointed do sin ,,,,

Leviticus 8 v 10: and Moses,,, anointed the tabernacle and all things that was therein ,,,,

Ezekiel 28 v 14: thou art the anointed cherub

Etc….

Now on the issue of title. Every prophet of God is an anointed one of God – the title ‘messiah’ or ‘masih’ or its translation ‘christ’ is exclusively reserved for jesus in both islam and Christianity. This is not unusual in religion. There are certain other honorific titles which may be applied to more than one prophet, yet being made exclusive to one by usage, like ‘Rasul-lullah’ meaning ‘messenger of God’ which title is applied to both moses (Quran 19 v 51) and Jesus (Quran 61 v 6) , yet ‘Rasul-lullah’ has become synonymous only with the prophet of Islam among muslims.

Every prophet is indeed a ‘friend of God’ but its Arabic equivalent ‘Khalil-lullah' is exclusively associated with father Abraham. This does not mean that the others are not God’s friend. ‘Khalimul-lah’ (One who spoke with God’) is never used for anyone other than Moses, yet we believe that God spoke with all His messengers including Jesus and Muhammed (May Allah’s peace and blessing be on them all). Associating certain names to a certain personality does not make them exclusively unique in any way. We honour all in varying terms.

Take care

@ Batu,
Dear me, guess I did not articulately state what exactly I meant by the term that his postings seems a bit more intelligent these days.

Actually I was implying that the way he writes his English this days seems to have grown a bit better than the babs 787 of old.

He basically still does not know how to quote other posts view though, but he seriously tries to write good comprehensible English these days.

@pataki


It is not your fault if not for the pc. At times it goes and at times it got muddled up telling me that the pop-up is blocked, so I have decided to be using it like that.Or what is your headache there?

Good observation oluwatosin.

Brother take a look at your post below

Actually I was implying that the way he writes his English this days seems to have grown a bit better than the babs 787 of old.

How could you be using this and days together ?

So you can see that mistake has no master.

Got youuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

@babs787,

babs787:

Am not here to argue blindly with you because no matter what you are being told, be it the truth, you will never accept as long as it is not in your favour.

For your sake, I really do hope that we don't lead this discourse into blind arguments. However, have you not been doing the very same thing of wringing muddled ideas and pass them off as 'truth' as long as they were in your favour?

babs787:

So am not posting to win argument or whatever but for others to read and judge.

As long as we do so in all fairness - which by way of challenge I've severally offered that you check out and investigate the dressed-up articles you have been reposting on the Forum.

babs787:

I wonder why you lay claim to some prophecy in the bible despite the fact jesus was never mentioned but very quick at rebuffing that of the prophet of Islam. Have you for one day gone through the Aramaic bible to verify my claim? Am leaving you to your drivel but will like to correct your spurious post

I rebuffed, indeed tried to dissolve, the idea of parading Muhammad as the Prophet of Deut. 18 simply because he wasn't there. And not even in the Aramaic Bible was Muhammad mentioned there either. The spurious linguistic re-engineering of the Hebrew language with which most Muslim apologists diddle the public reader today is modelled after the Islamic tenet of lying (al-Taqiyya).

babs787:

#1. Father and mother would also mean that there were many prophets who qualified as much, and not only Muhammad.

Jesus did not qualify for the prophecy here which you are very aware of. Muhammed qualified more than Jesus. Why bringing the issue of other prophet when we are comparing the three prophets? We are looking at the things in common with the three prophets

Which again is a misnomer of 'similarities'. My point was and is that, to use 'father and mother' as a criteria would not only disqualify Muhammad, but would heighten the chances of any other prophet born of 'father and mother' as more qualified than Muhammad. If you seriously want to look at "things in common" with them, what then would disqualify other prophets who were born of fathers and mothers, as if those are not common of men in general?

babs787:

#2. What is the miraculous birth between Moses and Muhammed?

Were the two of them (Moses and Muhammed) not conceived through the normal intercourse between husband and wife? Is that the situation of Jesus too? Was he conceived through intercourse between husband and wife?

You had listed that as part of the "Eight similarities between Moses and Muhammad" - and my question followed: "What is the miraculous birth between Moses and Muhammed?" If you already knew that they were "conceived through the normal intercourse between husband and wife", why list a 'miraculous birth between Moses and Muhammad' as a similarity?

babs787:

#3. Marital status is no criteria; as in the case with #1, many prophets also were married. Besides, that would even be a disimilarity between them, because Moses had only one wife while Muhammad was said to have more than a dozen.

It is not a disimilarity. Do you equate someone that marry regardless of the number of wives to someone that doesnt? Moses married, though one wife and Muhammed married too but more than one wife while jesus didnt even marry at all. What can be infer here is that they both married but one having a wife and another more than one, while Jesus never marry. Is someone that has married the same as someone that has never?

Don't try to flog the issue on the marital status. Other Jewish prophets were also married and had only one wife each as did Moses. Claiming that Muhammad's marriage to many wives as a similarity to Moses' monogamy is actually unwittingly stressing the dissimilarity between them.

Now, if marital status is to be a criteria at all, then the question of the type of marriage should be raised as well since you are claiming a stretched emphasis between someone who has married and one who never had. As concerning someone who has married, what is the similarity between polygamy and monogamy? You could also include the following types of 'gamos' (marriages), if you please and ask if these are "similar": adelphogamy - (form of marriage in which brothers share a wife or wives); bigamy; cenogamy (state of a community which permits promiscuous sexual intercourse among its members); and pangamy (marriage without limitation as to spouses).

There are no similarities between the various 'gamos' listed above; and making Muhammad's poly[/b]gamy similar to Moses' [b]mono[/b]gamy is to arrive from blind argument rather than open consideration of issues.

babs787:

#4. Does the rejection of Jesus by His own people establish the similarities between Moses and Muhammad?

So you don't know that it has? Moses and Muhammed were first rejected by their people but accepted during their life while jesus was never accepted during his lifetime.

Jesus was NEVER accepted during His lifetime? This is another argument from mere denial. See:

"Then [b]many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him. . .Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus. . .Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him" (Joh 11:45; 12:11).

babs787:

#5. Already discussed earlier; this fails to make Muhammad the prophet of Deut. 18.

There are instances in the bible of persons who were given gift of prophecy only but they were not in a position to implement their directives. Some of these holy men of God who were helpless in the face of stubborn rejection of their message were Jonah, Daniel, Ezra, John the Baptist etc. They could only deliver the message but could not enforce the law. The Holy prophet jesus belonged to this category. It was confirmed in the Gospel when he was dragged before the Roman Governor, Pilate. Conclusively, both Moses and Muhammed not only delivered message but also enforced it. They were kings, ruler etc during their time and were feared by their followers.

First, a "prophecy" is not the same thing as a "directive". It is God's prerogative to bring about the fulfillment of the prophecies He gives through His prophets; but it is rather man's responsibility to obey the divine 'directives' or commands issued from Him to guide their lives.

Second, I applaud your magical re-drafting of events; but they simply hold no persuasion at all, unless you're recycling the Islamic re-interpretation given by Muhammad, just as Joseph Smith attempted with his re-invention of Biblical narratives.

However, the Bible shows the results of Jonah's preaching - 'the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them' (Jon. 3:5). Daniel was in captivity (Dan. 1:1, 6), but through his ministry palace officials were delivered from death, and the king himself was astonished (ch.2 ). Further, Daniel's prophetic interpretation of the king's dream came to pass, causing the king to praise God (ch. 4). Daniel's ministry also caused the king himself to make certain pronouncements: "Therefore I make a decree, That every people, nation, and language, which speak any thing amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made a dunghill: because there is no other God that can deliver after this sort" (ch. 3:29). Did you call that "helpless in the face of stubborn rejection"?

John the Baptist came preaching "the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (Mark 1:4); and was also sent as "a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe" (John 1:7). The results of his ministry? Here: "Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins" (Matt. 3:5-6). You can re-invent that as "helpless in the face of stubborn rejection"?

As for Jesus whom you described as being in the same category of "helpless", I only have to offer you the same answers as above: "Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him. . .Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus. . .Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him" (Joh 11:45; 12:11). When He stood before Pilate, this was His remarkable statement: "Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin." (John 19:11).

From the foregoing, one cannot draw the inference you made earlier; unless they are being forcefully dishonest in their denials.

babs787:

#6. No new Laws - as a similarity between Moses and Muhammad?

Yes if you do not know. Moses and Muhammed came with new laws while Jesus came to act on the already existing laws. (Mathew 5 v 17 - 18)

I think you're missing the whole gist out of desperation. You listed "no new laws" as a "similarity" between Moses and Muhammad - and you still came back sweating it out. If you hold on to that idea, then you're simply saying that Moses and Muhammad had "no new laws" - which is a huge contradiction to your arguments.

However, Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the prophets (Matt. 5:17) - He knew exactly what He came to accomplish. Note two things here: (a) Deut. 18 did NOT state that the Prophet would bring "new laws" - in the sense that such laws would contravene God's Word; (b) the word "prophets" in Matt. 5:17 is in the plural, which means that several prophets spoke of Him besides Moses' prophecy (see again Luke 24:44). This establishes the principle that at the testimony of two or three every matter is established (John 8:17 and Deut. 19:15b ).

Now, if Muhammad's "new laws" were different from and contradictory to that already given by Moses, then it disqualifies the Arab prophet all the more - and this is evident on so many counts.

Just one example: what did Muhammad know of the holy Jewish feasts of the LORD, such as the Passover (Lev. 23:5 and Mark 14:12)? Without even so much as a clear statement on the intricacies of the established Law, Muhammad wanted people to gullibly believe that he was that "Prophet" in Deut. 18; and Muslim apologists now parade this criteria of "new laws" as a qualification in his favour. If such arguments hold at all, then by all means, every other non-Jewish and non-Arab prophet who brought different laws should qualify as well - and even much more than Muhammad.

babs787:

#7. The departure of Muhammad was very unlike that of Moses.

How? Both of them died natural death while Jesus was crucified as put by christians.

Muhammad was poisoned by a Jewess - is that a "natural" death?

babs787:

#8. If 'heavenly abode' counts, then where is Jesus Christ - is He not in heaven?

Hey, am not saying that he is not. Moses and Muhammed both lied buried in earth while Jesus was not. Moses and Muhammed did not arise after third day while Jesus did as put by christians.

Same thing could be claimed for all other prophets who lived, died, and lay buried in their tombs and sepulchres. So, there's nothing uniquely exclusive to just Moses and Muhammad in that criteria.

@babs787,

babs787:

I'm sorry to read that Muslims understand 'CHRIST' as merely a title, and yet have not been bold enough to use it for Muhammad as well. In the same way, I may assume that Muhammad's title as the 'Rasool of Allah' is a mere title that non-living things were called. Not even the Qur'an assumes the "Messiah" is as you claim.


I was about leaving the thread when I re-read your above post. If you do not accept the word' christ' as being a title, let me have your meaning of it.

Below are verses where the word 'anointed’ is used

Genesis 31 v 13: ,,, I am God of Beth-el, where you anoint a pillar ,,,,


Leviticus 4 v 3: if the priest that is anointed do sin ,,,,

Leviticus 8 v 10: and Moses,,, anointed the tabernacle and all things that was therein ,,,,

Ezekiel 28 v 14: thou art the anointed cherub

Etc….

My point was direct and plain - the UNIQUNESS of Jesus as the CHRIST is undebatable - not even the Qur'an debates that. If I was mistaken, then followed my challenge as to why no right-thinking Muslim had dared to refer to any other Islamic prophet as "CHRIST" - not even used for Muhammad.

This  political foible that it was merely a title as applied to Jesus would have been applicable by extension to Muhammad. The fact that it was otherwise should offer Muslims the opportunity to reconsider the UNIQUENESS of the only One addressed as the Messiah - JESUS.

babs787:

Now on the issue of title. Every prophet of God is an anointed one of God – the title ‘messiah’ or ‘masih’ or its translation ‘christ’ is exclusively reserved for jesus in both islam and Christianity. This is not unusual in religion. There are certain other honorific titles which may be applied to more than one prophet, yet being made exclusive to one by usage, like ‘Rasul-lullah’ meaning ‘messenger of God’ which title is applied to both moses (Quran 19 v 51) and Jesus (Quran 61 v 6) , yet ‘Rasul-lullah’ has become synonymous only with the prophet of Islam among muslims.

This is interesting. I only want to know why Muhammad was never referred to as "an anointed one of God" - especially since you claimed that every prophet of God is such (I assume you're making a case for prophets in Islam). Muhammad knew who was "the CHRIST" (or, the MESSIAH); he knew that title could never apply to him as he was not "the CHRIST" nor anointed of God.

babs787:

Every prophet is indeed a ‘friend of God’ but its Arabic equivalent ‘Khalil-lullah' is exclusively associated with father Abraham. This does not mean that the others are not God’s friend. ‘Khalimul-lah’ (One who spoke with God’) is never used for anyone other than Moses, yet we believe that God spoke with all His messengers including Jesus and Muhammed (May Allah’s peace and blessing be on them all). Associating certain names to a certain personality does not make them exclusively unique in any way. We honour all in varying terms.

Take care

With regards to the last line of your comment ['Associating certain names to a certain personality does not make them exclusively unique in any way'], I have this to say:

(a) by extension, Muhammad is not unique in any way, regardless whatever claim is made of him in Islam. He is not the "last prophet" nor did he have any unique status in Islam;

(b) by extension, if Jesus was not exclusively "The CHRIST/MESSIAH" as claimed even in the Qur'an, then Muhammad should have been able to claim it for himself! If he failed to make such a claim, then you premise is flawed.

It is clear that there's ONLY ONE UNIQUE Person called "the CHRIST" in both the Qur'an and the Bible - JESUS. There's none other recognized as such.

Enjoy!

babs787:

It is not your fault if not for the pc. At times it goes and at times it got muddled up telling me that the pop-up is blocked, so I have decided to be using it like that.Or what is your headache there?

Good observation oluwatosin.

On a lighter note, I agree with mrpataki that your posts of recent are a bit more enjoyable. Infact, they make for easier reading and are eye-catching for me to pick the salient points to address when you itemize and highlight them.

Anyhow, me and you still far from our wish - and I'm patiently waiting for someone to mistake me for that brilliant mind - shahan! I don try so tey, dictionary sef don tear for my hand!! And no one is saying anything sef! 

No worry: me, I go just be mysef from now on. (Maybe if to say I put "f" as a female for my profile, I go don receive emails plenty)!   

Cheers.

@babs787,

stimulus:

Anyhow, me and you still far from our wish - and I'm patiently waiting for someone to mistake me for that brilliant mind - shahan! I don try so tey, dictionary sef don tear for my hand!! And no one is saying anything sef!

No worry: me, I go just be mysef from now on. (Maybe if to say I put "f" as a female for my profile, I go don receive emails plenty)!

No vex, abeg no vex for me at all.
I didn't see this thread where you had already posted something about the above.

In fair exchange, I still stand by my statement that I enjoy your recent posts. Enjoy!

You are either 100% for/or against the bible. you cannot take some verses out to jusify yourself and leave out the rest. The Bible is Gods word. the Quaran reveals some of Muhammad's credentials for prophethood and the seem unacceptable according to biblical practices. The two prominent Hadithic "proofs" of his prophethood came from pagan ideas of what a shaman would look like and the manner in which he would be inspired.
A. The Hadith explains that when the Qur'an refers to the seal of prophethood being upon Muhammad (Surah 33:40), the seal was a large hairy mole on his back. This is found in both Bukhari (vol. 1, no. 189; vol. IV, no. 741) and Muslim (vol. IV, no. 5790,5793). This mole was the physical proof that Muhammad was a prophet according to Tabari and other later Muslim authorities. They even claimed that the mole was a fulfillment of such Scriptures as Isa. 9:6. We cannot accept this proof. While such ideas can be found in pagan traditions from many primitive cultures, it is not a part of the religion of Abraham, the prophets, the apostles or Jesus.
 
B. Both the Bukhari and Muslim Hadiths describe what happened to Muhammad when inspiration came upon him. He heard ringing in his ears, fell to the ground, turned red, sweated profusely, made moaning sounds, spit ran from his mouth, etc. While ancient pagans placed a great deal of importance on such things, they were never a part of the biblical prophets.
2. He failed a direct test of his claim to prophethood. He was asked to explain why a child will look like one parent as opposed to looking like the other. He claimed that Gabriel came and gave the inspired answer. See Bukhari vol. IV: no. 546. So, we are dealing with revelation and not just his personal opinion. He said that the child will look like which parent reaches his or her sexual climax first. The study of genetics and DNA forever disproves this idea.

3. He believed in magic, the evil eye, amulets, omens, spells, etc. He was superstitious about many things and made up weird rules about bathroom duties (Bukhari vol. 1, no. 144; vol. IV, nos. 110, 111; vol. VII, nos. 636, 648, 649, 650; Muslim vol. I, no. 458; vol. III, 3 nos. 5424, 5427). He was afraid whenever a strong wind blew (Bukhari vol. II, no. 144) and of eclipses (Bukhari vol. II, no. 167).

While this is bad enough, the Hadith tells us that Muhammad was at times under magical spells, i.e., bewitched, and told lies and did things while under those spells. (Bukhari vol. IV, nos. 400, 490; VII, no. 660; Muslim vol. III, no. 5428) Once it is admitted that he told lies and did things while under satanic influence, then the entire Qur'an could be satanic in origin.

Later Muslim authorities even went so far as to say that he was at one time inspired by Satan to put some verses into the Qur'an. They were later removed because they were Satanic verses. (Surah 53:19,20)

4. The Hadith tells us that "Allah made the prophet wealthy through conquests." (Bukhari III: no. 495), Was he in it for the money? Some Muslims are ignorant of this Hadith and claim that Muhammad was poor like Jesus.

5. He did not keep the rules he imposed upon others. He had more wives than four (Bukhari vol. I, no. 268) and did not write a will (Bukhari vol. IV, nos. 3,4).

6. He commanded that anyone who fell away from Islam should be murdered. (Bukhari vol IV, no. 260; vol. V, no. 630) Volume IX is filled with death threats against apostasy (pgs. 10,11, 26, 34, 45, 50, 57, 341, 342). These Hadiths contradict other Hadiths which say that no one ever leaves Islam (Bukhari vol. I, nos. 6, 48).

The punishment of apostates reveals that he did not believe in the freedom of religion, the freedom of speech, the freedom of assembly and the freedom of the press. The fact that he commanded that no churches or synagogues be allowed in Arabia is a telling argument that he was not a man of peace.

7. The Hadith reveals that Muhammad had to ask forgiveness for sin more than seventy times a day. (Bukhari vol. I, nos. 711; 78; vol. V, no. 724) Since Muslims believe that prophets must be sinless, this means that Muhammad was not a prophet.

8. He was guilty of false prophecies.
   1 - The 100 yr. Prophecy. (Bukhari vol. I, no. 539)
   2. The end of the world predictions. (Bukhari vol. IV, no.401)

9. He kissed and caressed the idol of black stone set into the wall of the Kabah. (Muslim vol. II, no. 2912, 2916) We cannot imagine Abraham or Jesus kissing a pagan idol and then commanding their followers to do so.

10. While Muslims claim that Muhammad was illiterate in order to make the Qur'an a miracle, the Hadith records that he could in fact read and write. (Bukhari vol. IV, no. 393)

Just as the Hadith gives us good reasons to question the integrity of Muhammad, his teachings recorded in the Hadith give us even more reason to doubt he was a prophet. The following is a brief list of some of the strange and absurd teachings of Muhammad.

1. Adam was 60 cubits tall! (Bukhari vol. IV, no. 543) Then how tall was Eve? If they were that tall, how did we get here? Is it medically possible for him to be that tall?

2. Muhammad was a dog hater. He thought that angels could not enter a house if a dog was there and that black dogs were devils. Thus he ordered dogs to be killed and forbid the selling of dogs. (Bukhari vol- IV, nos. 539, 540; Muslim vol. I, nos. 551, 552; vol. II, nos. 3803, 3829)

3. Satan lives in the nose over night. He can be flushed out if you snort water up and then out the nose. (Bukhari vol. IV, no. 516; Muslim vol. I, no. 462) How big is Satan? Is he in everyone's nose? Is he omnipresent?

4. Muhammad forbade the game of chess! (Muslim vol. IV, no. 5612) This makes no sense to me.

5. People turn into rats, pigs and monkeys. (Bukhari vol. IV, nos. 524, 627; Muslim vol. IV, no. 7135). Abraham's father was turned into an animal (Bukhari vol. IV, no.569)

6. Muslims have one intestine while non-Muslims have seven! (Muslim vol. 111, no. 5113-5115)

7. If you lift up your eyes towards heaven while praying, your eyes will be snatched out! (Muslim vol. III, nos. 862-863)

8. One wing of a fly has poison but the other wing has the antidote to it. (Bukhari vol. IV, no. 537)

9. We should drink camel urine as a medicine. (Bukhari vol. I, no. 234)

10. Fevers are from the fire of hell and can be cooled by water. (Bukhari vol. IV, nos. 483, 486)

Mohammed and Allah sure had a sense of humor!!!

<offtopic>

Just came in to say this:

stimulus:

Anyhow, me and you still far from our wish - and I'm patiently waiting for someone to mistake me for that brilliant mind - shahan! I don try so tey, dictionary sef don tear for my hand!! And no one is saying anything sef!

Though no one has directly said anything regarding that, I am here to admit that I actually mistake you for shahan atimes after reading your posts, and sometimes have to scroll up (if it's a long post) to check the username again just to confirm. The only difference I see is that you do not use as many colours in your posts as shahan and syrup. But as for your sentence construction and expression, even in pidgin (like the one in the quote), you two sound almost alike. And I must confess also that your posts have been inspiring and worth the while. Keep it up bro, and may the Lord be with you always. God bless.

</offtopic>

Ride on guys!

goodguy:

<offtopic>

Just came in to say this:

Though no one has directly said anything regarding that, I am here to admit that I actually mistake you for shahan atimes after reading your posts, and sometimes have to scroll up (if it's a long post) to check the username again just to confirm. The only difference I see is that you do not use as many colours in your posts as shahan and syrup. But as for your sentence construction and expression, even in pidgin (like the one in the quote), you two sound almost alike. And I must confess also that your posts have been inspiring and worth the while. Keep it up bro, and may the Lord be with you always. God bless.

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Ride on guys!

Mission accomplished! When I came on the Forum, I marvelled that a female was holding forte, and my chauvinistic ego was dented! So, babs787. . . count your candles until your turn reach!!


Meanwhile @mimi4eva: thanks for posting those rejoinders - well appreciated. Links:

http://answering-islam.org/Resources/Morey/quran.html

http://kcm.co/Egypt/%EC%9D%B4%EC%8A%AC%EB%9E%8C/quran.htm

Cheers.

A. The Hadith explains that when the Qur'an refers to the seal of prophethood being upon Muhammad (Surah 33:40), the seal was a large hairy mole on his back. This is found in both Bukhari (vol. 1, no. 189; vol. IV, no. 741) and Muslim (vol. IV, no. 5790,5793). This mole was the physical proof that Muhammad was a prophet according to Tabari and other later Muslim authorities. They even claimed that the mole was a fulfillment of such Scriptures as Isa. 9:6. We cannot accept this proof. While such ideas can be found in pagan traditions from many primitive cultures, it is not a part of the religion of Abraham, the prophets, the apostles or Jesus.

B. Both the Bukhari and Muslim Hadiths describe what happened to Muhammad when inspiration came upon him. He heard ringing in his ears, fell to the ground, turned red, sweated profusely, made moaning sounds, spit ran from his mouth, etc. While ancient pagans placed a great deal of importance on such things, they were never a part of the biblical prophets.

This is ridiculous,how can the mark of a prophet be a lesion that has a probability of turning cancerous?A hairy mole.ROFL

The symptoms in B are classic for epilepsy,now it all comes together.The man was epileptic and had "revelations" while having an episode.
I have read it somewhere,his wife actually said he had a devil.
wow,Mohammed was epileptic!!

They even do am juju.

Volume 7, Book 71, Number 660:
Narrated Aisha:

[b]Magic was worked on Allah's Apostle so that he used to think that he had sexual relations with his wives while he actually had not (Sufyan said: That is the hardest kind of magic as it has such an effect). Then one day he said, "O 'Aisha do you know that Allah has instructed me concerning the matter I asked Him about? Two men came to me and one of them sat near my head and the other sat near my feet. The one near my head asked the other. What is wrong with this man?' The latter replied the is under the effect of magic The first one asked, Who has worked magic on him?' The other replied Labid bin Al-A'sam, a man from Bani Zuraiq who was an ally of the Jews and was a hypocrite.' The first one asked, What material did he use)?' The other replied, 'A comb and the hair stuck to it.' The first one asked, 'Where (is that)?' The other replied. 'In a skin of pollen of a male date palm tree kept under a stone in the well of Dharwan' '' So the Prophet went to that well and took out those things and said "That was the well which was shown to me (in a dream) Its water looked like the infusion of Henna leaves and its date-palm trees looked like the heads of devils." The Prophet added, "Then that thing was taken out' I said (to the Prophet ) "Why do you not treat yourself with Nashra?" He said, "Allah has cured me; I dislike to let evil spread among my people." [/b]

@babs787,

Getting back to the topic at hand.  While I am not trying to insult you, I am reminded of Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit. So far, I have tried to argue with you at your level of reasoning in other to show you the folly of your argument. In as much as everyone knows that the Bible wasn't refering to marital status, manner of death etc in arriving at the comparison between Jesus and Moses, we have expressly jettisoned the notion that those rudimentary things you mentioned are not the sole perogative of Muhammad.  Rather, they are common to virtually all the prophets in the Bible.

So the question remains - exactly what did God have in mind when He said unto Moses "a prophet like unto thee"?  Well, I have often told you that the Bible always provides its own answers. The principle is 'a little here, a little there' and no scripture will lack its mate.  The Bible clearly indicates what sets Moses apart from all other Prophets and this uniqueness is shared only by Jesus.  Here are the scriptures:

Deuteronomy 18:[/b]15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, [b]like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Deuteronomy 34:10 And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face,

Exodus 33:11 - And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

Deuteronomy 5:[/b]4 [b]The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,

In short, hear what God said about Moses that makes Him unique:

Numbers 12: 6 he said, "Listen to my words: "When a prophet of the Lord is among you, I reveal myself to him in visions, I speak to him in dreams. 7 But this is not true of my servant Moses; he is faithful in all my house. 8 With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the Lord. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?"

As far as the qu'ran and your hadiths are concerned, Muhammad never enjoyed the priviledge of seeing God. He claims he was hearing from one Angel Gabriel (why am I not surprsied he used a Bible character). 

Jesus on the other hand, the Bible declares was "face to face with God - That is the literal translation of John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, the word was face to face with God and God was the Word.  And of course, there are many scripturres that indicate the nearness of Jesus to the Father that we can present here as facts.

So therefore, until you can prove to us that Muhammad received word from God face to face much differently than other Prophets did, you have absolutely no case.

@tayod

Let me start too with biblical verses.

Proverb 12 v 1: to learn, you must love discipline , it is stupid to hate correction.

Proverb 9 v 9; Teach the wise, and they will be wiser. Teach the righteous and they will learn more.

Its very funny how you condemn my own similarities but come out with just only one similarity.

You think that other's post is inferior to yours as long as its not in agreement with yours. How could you be telling me that the bible didnt refer to marital status, manner of death etc but the same verse could refer to seeing God face to face, just only one similarity!!!



#Deuteronomy 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken#

Why not view it from the phrase, 'from among thy brethren', 'I will put my words in his mouth' and not relying only on 'like unto thee' , maybe that will provide better understanding. You cannot give me just one similarity to accept out of like five that I listed out for you. You should also note that the jews were expecting three
different personalities: Elijah, the prophet and the Messiah.


#on the other hand, the Bible declares was "face to face with God - That is the literal translation of John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, the word was face to face with God and God was the Word. And of course, there are many scripturres that indicate the nearness of Jesus to the Father that we can present here as facts.#

Hey, you are giving the bible your own meaning different from the original meaning. See, me I no dey oo.

I have given similarities in which some are with regards to their birth, family life, death, career, encounter with enemies, results of encounters, writing down of revelation, nature of teachings, claimed nature etc as against your only one similarity of seeing God face to face.

Take care.