jeruzi:
If you study from the genesis of this new occupation, you would realise that the Jews did not start with violence but with "land purchasing". They bought lands with money. Please study it.Violence came as a counter measure. Also note that their where Jews on that land before the European Jews came in.

see @bold, yes, that was true. Jews could only live among people but they can not have a state. If you watched the second video i posted up there you would see Rabbi said the same thing. Jews were living in the Holy Land before EU came but they lived amongst the Arabs in peace until zionist Jews kicked start the idea of "Jewish State". Thats when problem came

Raintaker:
Quote

First of all, the people that you call palestine today are not the original descendants of the philistines. The philistine can no longer be traced, as they mixed with the cananites, and are all no more now. The culture of the philistines and the palestines are two different cultures. Also, all the inhabitants of the region were initially called palestine; inhabitants which included Jews, muslims, and others. How did the name philistine change to palestine? It was from the greek, who described the region as palestine and that extended to the people. The romans aquired the name, and then the English. Those you claim are the descendants of the philistines are not. There is a belief that part of the jews and part of the muslims their today may be the direct descendant, but not all. Do your study well. The Jews had remnants on that land, so what is your claim and justification?

Empiree:
see @bold, yes, that was true. Jews could only live among people but they can not have a state. If you watched the second video i posted up there you would see Rabbi said the same thing. Jews were living in the Holy Land before EU came but they lived amongst the Arabs in peace until zionist Jews kicked start the idea of "Jewish State". Thats when problem came

now you agree that the Jews where still there, and yet you claim it belong to the Arabs who now call themselves palestine. The strength of Israel by population was not enough to fill their land. when other came back, should they not takeover their land that they never totally left from the arabs who came in with time.

jeruzi:
If you study from the genesis of this new occupation, you would realise that the Jews did not start with violence but with "land purchasing". They bought lands with money. Please study it.Violence came as a counter measure. Also note that their where Jews on that land before the European Jews came in.

The land purchases were not done in good faith. Taking over was their goal from the start. Most of the landowners were poor peasants who needed the money and wealthy non-Palestinian Arabs who did not care.
There were a series of Palestinian uprisings to halt those purchases but they were largely unsuccessful due to external interference.

Economic oppression is also oppression.

jeruzi:
now you agree that the Jews where still there, and yet you claim it belong to the Arabs who now call themselves palestine. The strength of Israel by population was not enough to fill their land. when other came back, should they not takeover their land that they never totally left from the arabs who came in with time.

sir, are you being hypocritical or what?. Why did you ignore everything i have been saying?. Why did you ignore when i said people lived their even before them?. Why did you ignore religious ruling i quoted from Bible?. Why did you ignore those videos of Jewish rabbis?. Why did you cherry pick what suits you?.

Now answer this since you claimed they aren't violent. Since those remnants (Jews) who lived amongst Arabs before zionists emerged, they lived in peace with the Arabs like cousins. Arabs didnt try to throw them into the ocean according to media propaganda. So why do they now caused trouble and violence in the region?. Read btw the lines. If you don't understand everything i have been saying, kindly rewind and re-read. Thanks

Ranchhoddas:
The land purchases were not done in good faith. Taking over was their goal from the start. Most of the landowners were poor peasants who needed the money and wealthy non-Palestinian Arabs who did not care.
There were a series of Palestinian uprisings to halt those purchases but they were largely unsuccessful due to external interference.

Economic oppression is also oppression.

You mind him. The issue may be discussed and understood from two perspectives: religious and political

UN (league of nations) and Britain were culprits through their Balfour Declaration. When Israel realizes it standpoint from political perspective is largely reviled, it retorted to religious sentiment like Israeli rep did at the UN vote recently, and also Netanyahu. I am more inclined to denounce israel from religious standpoint since they want to be cunning. Israel is not interested in Two-State Solution

Empiree:
You mind him. The issue may be discussed and understood from two perspectives: religious and political

UN (league of nations) and Britain were culprits through their Balfour Declaration. When Israel realizes it standpoint from political perspective is largely reviled, it retorted to religious sentiment like Israeli rep did at the UN vote recently, and also Netanyahu. I am more inclined to denounce israel from religious standpoint since they want to be cunning. Israel is not interested in Two-State Solution

No one who observes facts devoid of religion would take the Israeli side. With Western backing, Israel has bribed and muscled its way into becoming a sovereign state in the Middle East.
It's funny how African Christians believe that their God is on Israel's side.

Ranchhoddas:
No one who observes facts devoid of religion would take the Israeli side. With Western backing, Israel has bribed and muscled its way into becoming a sovereign state in the Middle East.
It's funny how African Christians believe that their God is on Israel's side.

It is funny how you see this thing. Take a look at the region since Israel was displaced from that land, had there been any sovereign nation there. This is not religion now, this is history. What you are now refering to as the palestina state, who was there president before the state of Israel was formed? they where not a nation, but different people came in and settle in the region both arabs and others. Israelis were not new there, they had remnant, others came back to join and they decided to establish a government, then fight broke out. Why?

Empiree:
sir, are you being hypocritical or what?. Why did you ignore everything i have been saying?. Why did you ignore when i said people lived their even before them?. Why did you ignore religious ruling i quoted from Bible?. Why did you ignore those videos of Jewish rabbis?. Why did you cherry pick what suits you?.

Now answer this since you claimed they aren't violent. Since those remnants (Jews) who lived amongst Arabs before zionists emerged, they lived in peace with the Arabs like cousins. Arabs didnt try to throw them into the ocean according to media propaganda. So why do they now caused trouble and violence in the region?. Read btw the lines. If you don't understand everything i have been saying, kindly rewind and re-read. Thanks

I actually went through your post and didn't want to use more of religious books and quotes than the hisotry we can all relate to. But since you want us to quote, it's ok.

jeruzi:
It is funny how you see this thing. Take a look at the region since Israel was displaced from that land, had there been any sovereign nation there.

who displaced them?

This is not religion now, this is history. What you are now referring to as the palestina state, who was there president before the state of Israel was formed?

what does this prove?. At some point, Nigeria was stateless before the British. Bottomline is, they lived in peace before EU gave the land to the jews

they where not a nation, but different people came in and settle in the region both arabs and others. Israelis were not new there, they had remnant, others came back to join and they decided to establish a government, then fight broke out. Why?

don't you get it?. Those jews lived amongst Arabs. They never made effort to have state either. It was EU who converted to Judaism but have nothing to do with ancient jews that were actually interested in "Jewish State". That's why ancient Jews resist them. Jews were banned from the land some over 2000yrs ago. They can come there as tourists. They may live their amongst the people but they can no longer claim the land as their own.

Quran directly testifies to this. Let's assume Jews decided to make it a state, question is, were they the only ones living there?. The deed of the Land for them had been terminated. If you want to claim ramnant as evidence of their rightfully owner, this is like saying you have the right to your previous address just bcuz post office still send your mails there randomly. This is not evidence of ownership. You have left the house and someelse had taken over. That's the point. If they wanted to retain ownership, they would have behave themselves. So where do you want Palestinians to go if Israel takes over Jerusalem?

jeruzi:
I actually went through your post and didn't want to use more of religious books and quotes than the hisotry we can all relate to. But since you want us to quote, it's ok.

religion actually precedes history. And israel always brings up religion into this anytime it makes reference to Jerusalem. They were banned by God to never return to reclaim the land as their own, until Gog and Magog are let loose from their barrier. So it's Gog and Magog behind their recent claim of to Jerusalem.

jeruzi:
It is funny how you see this thing. Take a look at the region since Israel was displaced from that land, had there been any sovereign nation there. This is not religion now, this is history. What you are now referring to as the palestina state, who was there president before the state of Israel was formed? they where not a nation, but different people came in and settle in the region both arabs and others. Israelis were not new there, they had remnant, others came back to join and they decided to establish a government, then fight broke out. Why?

There was no state and they were living peacefully. Like Empiree has told you, Nigerians were living in the region we know as Nigeria today before the Brits came and gave them an identity, is this enough to say they have a stake in Nigeria?

Even when the colonialists came they were resisted, it was superior force that made them conquer. The same superior force, bribery and threats that allowed the UN pass a resolution that created Israel.

Nobody would fold their arms and allow any invader to take their property, not even you.

We are now seeing history repeat itself. Donald Trump has started making economic threats that will force the rest of the world to allow Israel take Jerusalem as its capital. The same thing that led to the first "intifada".

Guatemala has caved in. Many more will follow.
How can anybody support this?

Empiree:
quote

looking at Gen 13:15 God said to Abraham; For all the land that you see I give to you and your descendants FOREVER. Not a moment, forever. we both know that Abraham sent Hagai and Ishmael away, and that Isaac inherited all Abraham had. Isaac past the inheritance to Jacob(Israel) the father of the Israelites, who then passed it to them. The covenant was forever. So we know Ishmael does not have a part in it. Also, God never said anywhere in the scripture that another people will inherit the land, that we should now assume it was the muslim He refered to like you quoted. You argument is faulty, you claimed that the portion of the scripture in the old testament that does not suit you has been edited. why should you claim a book that has been existing for year before islam was falsified. The original copies still exist. Again, while will the muslim inherit it forever no matter what; I thought you said there were condition for everyone to possess the land?

Empiree:
quote

They are not driving out the muslim, Christians, and other who are on the land. They will simply dwell among them. Furthermore, your claim about islam is not back up in the Bible. You don't have ref. for this in the Bible. and like I asked you before, why will it be muslims that will inherit the place "no matter what" while others had condition attached to them inheriting the land: this argument of your I find biase. Now, the war of Amargedon you talk about using gog and magog will arise becaus of this very occupation; where the whole world will turn against Israel. gog and magog are symbolic, not a actual phyaical name.

author=jeruzi post=63599172

You need to quote and write legibly. I can't correctly address you the way you quoted me. Try again so that i can reply accordingly. Thanks

jeruzi:
looking at Gen 13:15 God said to Abraham; For all the land that you see I give to you and your descendants FOREVER. Not a moment, forever. we both know that Abraham sent Hagai and Ishmael away, and that Isaac inherited all Abraham had. Isaac past the inheritance to Jacob(Israel) the father of the Israelites, who then passed it to them. away. The covenant was forever. So we know Ishmael does not have a part in it. Also, God never said anywhere in the scripture that another people will inherit the land, that we should now assume it was the muslim He referred to like you quoted. You argument is faulty, you claimed that the portion of the scripture in the old testament that does not suit you has been edited. why should you claim a book that has been existing for year before islam was falsified. The original copies still exist. Again, while will the muslim inherit it forever no matter what; I thought you said there were condition for everyone to possess the land?

The verse addresses Abraham and Abraham from Ur. And Abraham was muslim not Jew

Qur'an speaks


Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one inclining toward truth, a Muslim [submitting to Allah]. And he was not of the polytheists. Q3:67


Talking about descendants, QUran emphasized RIGHTEOUS CONDUCT as a condition to descendants of Abraham who are righteous. If you re not righteous and belief in God, you are exempted.


Quran speaks again


(Q2:124) Recall when Abraham’s Lord tested him in certain matters and when he successfully stood the test, He said: “Indeed I am going to appoint you a leader of all people.” When Abraham asked: “And is this covenant also for my descendants?” the Lord responded: “My covenant does not embrace the wrong-doers.”


Part of their wrong doers before and today is bribing UN and world powers to rule in their favor. And your other post where you did not quote me properly, i read where you said "how can the land be for muslim no matter what" while others are given conditions?".

You don't seem to get that. Condition is intact. Conditions are to be muslims and be righteous in conduct. If Arabs fail to be muslim today, they lose the right to the Holy Land. Get that?. So again, why did you quote the part where it says the land was their forever in Genesis while you ignored where they were banned from the Land?. Attachment proves they must uphold the conditions(covenants) to be rightful owner of the Land. Those who hold on to that covenants are muslim (Palestinians in the region). Do you know better than Rabbi Weiss?

Empiree:
The verse addresses Abraham and Abraham from Ur. And Abraham was muslim not Jew

Qur'an speaks


[i]Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was one inclining toward truth, a Muslim [submitting to Allah]. And he was not of the polytheists.

To refute your argument about islam being the religion of Abraham. Know this, there was nothing like islam until over 500AD. There was no record of it in any religious book. So Abraham was never a muslim, and thus no condition of being a muslim was attached to possessing the land. If the condition was to be a muslim, then I ask; where the Jews muslims when they inherited the land? If you say yes, then why is the pattern of their worship differnt from the muslims, and it's recorded in the Tenakh, and mohamed never learnt islam from them? If you say no; how then did they possess the land, not being muslims? The backing of the UN is not corruption. Is the coalition of islamic countries bribe. It's friendly vote.

jeruzi:
To refute your argument about islam being the religion of Abraham. Know this, there was nothing like islam until over 500AD. There was no record of it in any religious book. So Abraham was never a muslim, and thus no condition of being a muslim was attached to possessing the land. If the condition was to be a muslim, then I ask; where the Jews muslims when they inherited the land? If you say yes, then why is the pattern of their worship differnt from the muslims, and it's recorded in the Tenakh, and mohamed never learnt islam from them? If you say no; how then did they possess the land, not being muslims? The backing of the UN is not corruption. Is the coalition of islamic countries bribe. It's friendly vote.

Now you are talking. Welcome to the world of KNOWLEDGE. Welcome to the World of Islam. Are you ready to learn or you want to continue "bragado"?.

If you humble yourself and ready to learn, only then you will be able to understand verses i quoted earlier. In fact, i like the fact that you raised this questions now, especially when you asked 'why is their (jews) mode of worship different from muslims'. Your reply to this will determine if i have to go ahead or not.

Empiree:
Now you are talking. Welcome to the world of KNOWLEDGE. Welcome to the World of Islam. Are you ready to learn or you want to continue "bragado"?.

If you humble yourself and ready to learn, only then you will be able to understand verses i quoted earlier. In fact, i like the fact that you raised this questions now, especially when you asked 'why is their (jews) mode of worship different from muslims'. Your reply to this will determine if i have to go ahead or not.

world of islam, not so. I would have liked to see your point of view on the new subject. The very reason why I tried to avoid religion was to avoid the deviation of the thread from the main focus. Now that we are clear on history and religion on this topic, I would like you to create a topic and quote me here, leaving the name of the topic so that I can search for it. I really do not think there is anything new you can tell me about islam that I don't already know. I hope you are open minded for a debate

jeruzi:
world of islam, not so. I would have like to see your point of view on the new subject. The very reason why I tried to avoid religion was to avoid the deviation of the thread from the main focus. Now that we are clear on history and religion on this topic, I would like you to create a topic and quote me here, leaving the name of the topic so that I can search for it. I really do not think there is anything new you can tell me about islam that I don't already know. I hope you are open minded for a debate

Unfortunately, you can't talk about Jerusalem without talking about Islam and Judaism in particular. There is no way you can talk about this issue from historical view without talking religion. The guy flawed you on history. Israelis themselves always talk about religion anytime they speak on Jerusalem.

If you watch recent UN vote, when it was Israel's turn, they talked about religion. They always do that. You would hear them say "The God of our fathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob gave us the Land" Netanyahu says this all the time.

Sorry, buddy, I am not interested in opening a thread, and I am sorry to tell you that you have no knowledge of islam contrary to what you said up there. If you know everything about islam, you would not even say Abraham was not muslim. That alone failed you. It is not just about "open minded", it is about evidence for Divine Books.

And who told you that you are clear on history and religion on this?. You didnt even respond to Rabbis I posted. Primary reason the Jews want Jerusalem is because of Oil & Gas. There are natural resources underneath Jerusalem, especially around the masjid (mosques and their compound). The resources have always been there from the outstart.

Ranchhoddas:
It's not their land.
At least no more their land than that of the Palestinians.

If I came to your house and told you to leave because my ancestors lived there centuries ago would you leave?

A two-state state solution has been proposed for long and Israel has opposed it at every turn.
If you want peace you have to make sacrifices.
Why has Israel refused that?

Once again it's not their land.

If you were a wanton son or a riotous son who left home and lived as you liked, leaving your father's inheritance to fall into the hands of men who came into your land, finding no body, settled. when you come to your senses, should you return to your Father's house to claim back your inheritance? Or should you be told that you have gone for much too long, the settlers have settled for much too long and have no other place to go, so you shd go back to exile?

jeruzi:
I get your view now. You agree it's their land, but because of other occupant that came in due to the time laps, they should settle for the two state policy. Some claim that the land is altogether not theirs.

The Muslims do not want a 2State policy. Israel has offered them a 2 state policy 5times, they rejected it. They want Israel out of that land.

Ranchhoddas:
It is not their land.

Really? Where was King David, King Solomon and Jesus come from?

Empiree:
Remember Uganda was also suggested for them to live before UN, formerly the league of nations and the british decided Palastine land for them. If they had succeded given them Uganda, what do you think Ugandans would be doing by now?.

And you said to leave religion aside, do you know that Israel keeps using religion to back up their point?. As someone said earlier, where were they living before they moved to middle east?.

Do you know that you the Arab world have rejected a 2 state policy proposed by Israel 5 times? Now, you are not getting a foot space.

analize701:


Do you know that you the Arab world have rejected a 2 state policy proposed by Israel 5 times? Now, you are not getting a foot space.

When, when, when when and when?

analize701:


[s]Do you know that you the Arab world have rejected a 2 state policy proposed by Israel 5 times? Now, you are not getting a foot space.[/s]

Even if they rejected it 100 times, they had the right to do so. Israel offered none. What israel said was a disarmed palestinian "state" if they are to accept 2 state solution. Israel doesnt want INDEPENDENT palestine. Stop lying. If they wanted Palestinian state, why would Israeli PM and US prez keep saying "Jerusalem is undivided capital of Israel"?. That sounds like they want 2-state solution?.

However, Ranchhoddas already answered this when he said they had the right to resist anything they had to put forward just like Nigeria resisted Brits.

Interesting question.

I don't know a lot about Israel's history (I mean the historic Israel, not the modern one) but one thing I can say is that almost everyone aren't living where they originated from. I mean if everyone had to return to their ancestral land, then the white Americans would have to return to Europe, the African Americans return to Africa, some bits of South America return to Africa and in some cases Europe and white Australians return to Europe. As it stands however, if someone else has laid claim to what was once your piece of land long enough, well, it's now theirs. Best you can do is to come to some sort of agreement with them on how to either live with them or share the land.

boringnigerian:
Interesting question.

I don't know a lot about Israel's history (I mean the historic Israel, not the modern one) but one thing I can say is that almost everyone aren't living where they originated from. I mean if everyone had to return to their ancestral land, then the white Americans would have to return to Europe, the African Americans return to Africa, some bits of South America return to Africa and in some cases Europe and white Australians return to Europe. As it stands however, if someone else has laid claim to what was once your piece of land long enough, well, it's now theirs. Best you can do is to come to some sort of agreement with them on how to either live with them or share the land.

Ok, then. When all those people you mentioned return to their places of origin, only then, these israelis may claim the Land again. Meaning, until Red Indians claim back America, until African Americans return to Africa etc. But remember, people also existed before them too on the same Land

Remember also that the people pushing for "jewish state" are White European parading themselves as Jews. Thats', they are European who converted to Judaism but in reality, they have nothing to do with ancient Jews. Don't you think they need to return to EU themselves?

jeruzi:
the intention, and the assumptions are different. The Jews only want to settle back in their original settlement in peace. What you now call persecution is just a resistance against the aggression of the arabs. The so called Arabs never wanted Israel on that land, it was their inbility to jointly flush them out that gave room to their acceptance to acknowledge "the existence of the state of Israel" and then the two state solution. So what you call today aggression, persecution, or evil, is only a reaction to the force applied by the arabs. Also, Israel is willing to allow them settle among them in peace.

Just as the jews desire to occupy their ancestral homeland, the muslims also desire to maintain dominance in any region they once controlled. And there lies the problem, its basically just a conflict between two schools of thought, both parties believe that the land was given to them by their gods and it would be a slap on the faces of both their gods to give it up.

Empiree:
Even if they rejected it 100 times, they had the right to do so. Israel offered none. What israel said was a disarmed palestinian "state" if they are to accept 2 state solution. Israel doesnt want INDEPENDENT palestine. Stop lying. If they wanted Palestinian state, why would Israeli PM and US prez keep saying "Jerusalem is undivided capital of Israel"?. That sounds like they want 2-state solution?.

However, Ranchhoddas already answered this when he said they had the right to resist anything they had to put forward just like Nigeria resisted Brits.

Sorry, you can't have Jerusalem. lolzzzz.

Arabs doesn't want Israel in their own land at all, that's the point. They want all of it.

Why not take your state, put it's capital any where you want?

BeansAndBread:
When, when, when when and when?

Beans and Bread, do you read?
In 1747.
1967.

2000

2001

2008.

Pls try and read the history of the world.

Empiree:
Remember also that the people pushing for "jewish state" are White European parading themselves as Jews. Thats', they are European who converted to Judaism but in reality, they have nothing to do with ancient Jews. Don't you think they need to return to EU themselves?

The people you said are not Jews are real jews who escaped to Europe and returned. Contrary to what you stated in your earlier post, my arguments were not flawed. I know very well that religion is required to iron out this, but if I delved deep into religion, the thread will change. So now, what is the origing of islam? what religion was in mecca? what was kaaba to them? Did mohamed claim he was possessed? How is YHWH the same as allah? if you claim it's the same, why does the God of the jews suddenly want them dead? why are all the prophets and apostles before mohamed wrong? was mohamed not instructed to worship the gods of the pagan land that he conquered? Didn't want to do it this way before. Answer