butterflyl1on:


No!

My negative faith did not imply no faith which was why i said the below in quote

since u accept that your negative faith does not imply no faith... so why are u forcing negative faith on atheists who have no faith in Yahweh?

budaatum:

Thanks for the clarification. Not many atheist are agnostic though., and not many would accept that their view of no gods is based on faith.

Precisely! Which was why i said negative faith is not empirically universally verifiable since even among atheists they disagree on this issue and which was why i also said negative faith isn't always absolute and is in degrees. I have already said all of that in my comment (unless you never saw them).

Let me run a scenario for you using an atheist here. Observe closely.

frank317:


since u accept that your negative faith does not imply no faith... so why are u forcing negative faith on atheists who have no faith in Yahweh?

You lack any iota of the ability to understand anything.

My comment about negative faith NOT BEING ALWAYS ABSOLUTE and it ALSO BEING IN DEGREES was a response to you, hopefullandlord, superhumanist and budaatum (which was his position until now) and I simply explained that negative faith is not always absolute but varies based on the individual atheist and his personal experiential evidence to that effect.

Be it an absolute negative faith or a negative faith that isn't absolute both of them are derived from each individuals personal experiences but be it absolute or not it does not change the fact that they are working with negative faith since their position is only verifiable largely to themselves and isn't universally verifiable or agreed upon.

So let me ask you this.

DOES A DESIGNER OF THE UNIVERSE EXIST?
DOES GOD EXIST?
DOES YAHWEH EXIST?

I asked 3 different questions so treat them separately.

butterflyl1on:


You lack any iota of the ability to understand anything.

My comment about negative faith NOT BEING ALWAYS ABSOLUTE and it ALSO BEING IN DEGREES was a response to you, hopefullandlord, superhumanist and budaatum (which was his position until now) and I simply explained that negative faith is not always absolute but varies based on the individual atheist and his personal experiential evidence to that effect.

Be it an absolute negative faith or a negative faith that isn't absolute both of them are derived from each individuals personal experiences but be it absolute or not it does not change the fact that they are working with negative faith since their position is only verifiable largely to themselves and isn't universally verifiable or agreed upon.

So let me ask you this.

DOES A DESIGNER OF THE UNIVERSE EXIST?
DOES GOD EXIST?
DOES YAHWEH EXIST?

I asked 3 different questions so treat them separately.

I dont believe a known creator of the world exists. I dont know if the world was created or not and I dont care. Your idea about a creator is totally wrong and unacceptable and cannot be verified. The theist theory of the existence of a creator is false and unverifiable thats why you believe by faith.

I Dont believe in any creator hence cannot have either positive or negative faith in him or it.

enough of this negative faith nonsense. someone can believe in God and have negative faith in him e.g Islamic extremists who kill people because of their faith in God. Pastors who milk people of their hard earn money with the name of God are exercising negative faith. Dont make the mistake of accusing someone who does not believe in your bulshit of having negative faith. They have not faith in ur nonsense and not negative faith!!

butterflyl1on:


Be it an absolute negative faith or a negative faith that isn't absolute both of them are derived from each individuals personal experiences but be it absolute or not it does not change the fact that they are working with negative faith since their position is only verifiable largely to themselves and isn't universally verifiable or agreed upon.

That's not true, I'm afraid. An atheist does not rely on faith (negative, positive, or absolutes of either thereof) to claim god does not exist. It's not some personal thing one switches on and off without evidence in support.

Please note the difference in the atheist position, as posted, again. You are not saying the same thing!

My answers to you questions are no, no and no.

frank317:

someone can believe in God and have negative faith in him e.g Islamic extremists who kill people because of their faith in God. Pastors who milk people of their hard earn money with the name of God are exercising negative faith. Dont make the mistake of accusing someone who does not believe in your bulshit of having negative faith. They have not faith in ur nonsense and not negative faith!!

Please note the subtle difference in the use of the phrase "negative faith", butter. You, are not using it in this sense, it seems to me.

author=frank317 post=64476571]

I dont believe a known creator of the world exists. I dont know if the world was created or not and I dont care.

You don't believe A KNOWN CREATOR of the world exists but you don't care if the world was created or not (even if there is an unknown creator if I might add?)

I asked 3 separate questions so you need to address them separately.

Your idea about a creator is totally wrong and unacceptable and cannot be verified. The theist theory of the existence of a creator is false and unverifiable thats why you believe by faith.

You are all over the place and unnecessarily aggressive with this particular post. All I did was ask a simple yes or no question and your anger gets triggered

So my IDEA of a creator is totally wrong and UNACCEPTABLE. so please tell me the IDEA of a creator which would be right and acceptable.

I Dont believe in any creator hence cannot have either positive or negative faith in him or it

.
These are my questions again below

DOES A DESIGNER OF THE UNIVERSE EXIST?
DOES GOD EXIST?
DOES YAHWEH EXIST?

Note I never asked if you believe in them but simply asked about their existence. Still waiting for your well defined answer.

enough of this negative faith nonsense. someone can believe in God and have negative faith in him e.g Islamic extremists who kill people because of their faith in God. Pastors who milk people of their hard earn money with the name of God are exercising negative faith. Dont make the mistake of accusing someone who does not believe in your bulshit of having negative faith. They have not faith in ur nonsense and not negative faith!!

This comment here clearly shows you are still very far from understanding anything I have written. It took budaatum less than 3 posts to fully appreciate it but in your case it just might take a millennium if at all.

Anyway I am still waiting for your well defined answers and not explanations to my questions.

budaatum:

That's not true, I'm afraid. An atheist does not rely on faith (negative, positive, or absolutes of either thereof) to claim god does not exist. It's not some personal thing one switches on and off without evidence in support.

Please note the difference in the atheist position, as posted, again. You are not saying the same thing!

My answers to you questions are no, no and no.

Likewise a theist. Faith is not a personal switch but a personal conviction. It is a position firmly taken based on self evidence.

Let me show you something.

Is there ever vacuum in nature? NO!

If it takes personal Conviction to make one a theist it also takes personal conviction to make another an atheist.

Now if an atheist once had faith in God and was a theist the moment he looses that faith in God and becomes an atheist something MADE that happen. That thing that made it happen replaced his faith in God with faith in something else.

From your perspective you would say you lost your faith or convictions

From my perspective I would say you just found new convictions which you felt were stronger than your original belief in God.

So it is like emptying a cup of water and the space therein being immediately taken over by air.

Ideas are always replaced by other ideas and nobody is just a blank zombie like human roaming the earth.

Savvy?

budaatum:

Please note the subtle difference in the use of the phrase "negative faith", butter. You, are not using it in this sense, it seems to me.

His version of negative faith is an absolute one and I clearly said that the word negative does not always mean absolute but is also in degrees and I explained this using the popular atheist expression of "an atheist is someone who LACKS belief in God". Lack itself isn't absolute but can be a deficiency. It's like saying I need 200 naira but I have just 100 naira on me so what you lack is 100 naira but not an absolute 200 naira. Your need is deficient by 100 naira.

However be it an absolute negative faith which is known as FULL BLOWN atheism or a not so absolute negative faith which is known as agnostic atheism they are both hinged on personal non universally agreeable experiences.

budaatum:

That's not true, I'm afraid. An atheist does not rely on faith (negative, positive, or absolutes of either thereof) to claim god does not exist. It's not some personal thing one switches on and off without evidence in support.

Please note the difference in the atheist position, as posted, again. You are not saying the same thing!

My answers to you questions are no, no and no.

Regarding the last part of this comment of yours where you said your answers are no, no and no. Is this a 100% certainty to you? And if it was totally certain, how then did you arrive at this certainty?

Also, If yes, why then do you suppose atheists still ask for proof of God or evidence of his existence if they are already sure that his lack of existence is a 100% certainty?

Double standards?

butterflyl1on:


DOES YAHWEH EXIST?

No.

dalaman:


No.

I asked 3 separate questions why answer just one?

Let me post them again so you would answer properly.

DOES A DESIGNER OF THE UNIVERSE EXIST?
DOES GOD EXIST?
DOES YAHWEH EXIST?

butterflyl1on:


I asked 3 separate questions why answer just one?

Let me post them again so you would answer properly.

DOES A DESIGNER OF THE UNIVERSE EXIST?

I don't know.

DOES GOD EXIST?

Give the simplest and most detailed definition of God so that we know exactly what we are talking about.

DOES YAHWEH EXIST?

NO.

author=dalaman post=64479076]
I don't know.

How so?

Give the simplest and most detailed definition of God so that we know exactly what we are talking about

.

Your answer suggests that you have an expectation of what you think this God should be or should be defined as for you. So you define this God and answer for yourself.

NO

.

OK.

Budaatum I hope you are following.

butterflyl1on:


You don't believe A KNOWN CREATOR of the world exists but you don't care if the world was created or not (even if there is an unknown creator if I might add?)

If a creator exists, I am very sure he will let me know... if he does not let me know, he obviously dont want me to care. If it is discovered that a creator exists and we find out he is drinking ogogoro and sleeping with some weird females in Mars... why should i bother to worship him and get to know him?

I asked 3 separate questions so you need to address them separately.

ok

You are all over the place and unnecessarily aggressive with this particular post. All I did was ask a simple yes or no question and your anger gets triggered

are u angry? I tell you your creator does not exist and u say I am angry? are u sure u are alright?

So my IDEA of a creator is totally wrong and UNACCEPTABLE. so please tell me the IDEA of a creator which would be right and acceptable.

foolish question... keep on waiting

DOES A DESIGNER OF THE UNIVERSE EXIST?

No human has proven this... so therefore this answer remains UNKOWN

DOES GOD EXIST?

pls clarify if designer of the universe is different from God. If they are the same, refer to my answer above. if they are different.. NO

DOES YAHWEH EXIST?

No... yahweh, like allah is a man made concept

butterflyl1on:


Likewise a theist. Faith is not a personal switch but a personal conviction. It is a position firmly taken based on self evidence.

I would argue that the theist's faith is a personal switch if you say it's "based on self evidence".

I for instance, cannot talk for all atheist, but I would not say my stance is subjective, or based on self evidence. I am most certain even I can provide evidence for believing in fairys at the bottom of my garden, if I wanted to. I do a pretty good job with the million pound in my bank account.

The evidence for the existence or lack of the existence of a thing is not subject to the self (remember the tree falling in the forest?).

I have looked at the evidence for gods and found it rather wanting.

butterflyl1on:


Now if an atheist once had faith in God and was a theist the moment he looses that faith in God and becomes an atheist something MADE that happen. That thing that made it happen replaced his faith in God with faith in something else.

From your perspective you would say you lost your faith or convictions

Losing faith in god is not what defines an atheist! There are very many theists who have lost faith in their gods too but however do not necessarily claim their gods don't exist no more, just that they have no faith anymore.

The atheist loses belief in god at best. Then there's my sort of atheist who never believed in gods to start with. Faith and believing in a thing are not simply interchangeable as you seem to think.

budaatum:

I would argue that the theist's faith is a personal switch if you say it's "based on self evidence".

I for instance, cannot talk for all atheist, but I would not say my stance is subjective, or based on self evidence. I am most certain even I can provide evidence for believing in fairys at the bottom of my garden, if I wanted to. I do a pretty good job with the million pound in my bank account.

The evidence for the existence or lack of the existence of a thing is not subject to the self (remember the tree falling in the forest?).

I have looked at the evidence for gods and found it rather wanting.


Losing faith in god is not what defines an atheist! There are very many theists who have lost faith in their gods too but however do not necessarily claim their gods don't exist no more, just that they have no faith anymore.

The atheist loses belief in god at best. Then there's my sort of atheist who never believed in gods to start with. Faith and believing in a thing are not simply interchangeable as you seem to think.

Regarding the theists faith and your comment, that is your perspective as I have always talked about 2 perspectives here. However a theist would tell you otherwise. To a theist, his faith is a life he or she has come to accept and live and it is not a switch. It's like breathing air, they don't choose to... They just do.

All you just said are what I have been saying all along.

Absolutes and deficiencies.

This is pretty simple.

butterflyl1on:


Budaatum I hope you are following.

I am, and will suspend further commenting till you get to where you're going with this.

butterflyl1on:


Regarding the last part of this comment of yours where you said your answers are no, no and no. Is this a 100% certainty to you? And if it was totally certain, how then did you arrive at this certainty?

Also, If yes, why then do you suppose atheists still ask for proof of God or evidence of his existence if they are already sure that his lack of existence is a 100% certainty?

Double standards?

But I must respond to this first.

Yes, I am 100% certain.

butterflyl1on:


How so?

Does the universe have a designer or group of designers? I don't know. We've not been able to detect them as humans. So I don't know.



.

Your answer suggests that you have an expectation of what you think this God should be or should be defined as for you. So you define this God and answer for yourself.

You'll never stop playing yiur games. You asked me if God exist and I told you to define and explain what God is in a clear and concise way so that we know exactly what you are talking about.




.

frank317:

If a creator exists, I am very sure he will let me know... if he does not let me know, he obviously dont want me to care. If it is discovered that a creator exists and we find out he is drinking ogogoro and sleeping with some weird females in Mars... why should i bother to worship him and get to know him?


ok


are u angry? I tell you your creator does not exist and u say I am angry? are u sure u are alright?


foolish question... keep on waiting




No human has proven this... so therefore this answer remains UNKOWN


pls clarify if designer of the universe is different from God. If they are the same, refer to my answer above. if they are different.. NO



No... yahweh, like allah is a man made concept

On answer 2 you are now becoming clearer. Allow me to post your number 2 answer.

pls clarify if designer of the universe is different from God. If they are the same, refer to my answer above. if they are different.. NO

I did tell you that my questions were 3 DIFFERENT questions so I surely wouldn't be alluding that the designer of the universe is God would I?

So for question 1 and 2 your answers now were I DONT KNOW but earlier you said and I quote

I don't believe a known creator of the world exists. I dont know if the world was created or not and I dont care. Your idea about a creator is totally wrong and unacceptable and cannot be verified. The theist theory of the existence of a creator is false and unverifiable thats why you believe by faith.

I Dont believe in any creator hence cannot have either positive or negative faith in him or it.

In your comment you said you don't believe and don't care but just now you said YOU DON'T KNOW IF

1. A DESIGNER OF THE UNIVERSE EXISTS
2. IF GOD EXISTS.

how can you in one comment say you do not believe God exists or a known creator exists and in another comment say I DON'T KNOW IF SUCH EXISTS?

double standards?

Budaatum by now you should be getting a hint of where I am going with this.

author=dalaman post=64479597]

Does the universe have a designer or group of designers? I don't know. We've not been able to detect them as humans. So I don't know.

You don't know. But do you believe in this possibility?



.

You'll never stop playing yiur games. You asked me if God exist and I told you to define and explain what God is in a clear and concise way so that we know exactly what you are talking about.

I am actually being very plain and not playing games. If you are asking me for a definition and an explanation of what God is in a clear concise manner this simply means you have your own view or definition of who or what you think God is or SHOULD BE. So I asked you to feel free to define or explain him in your own way and then answer your own question using your own definition and explanation. This is fair enough isn't it?

butterflyl1on:


Regarding the last part of this comment of yours where you said your answers are no, no and no. Is this a 100% certainty to you? And if it was totally certain, how then did you arrive at this certainty?

Also, If yes, why then do you suppose atheists still ask for proof of God or evidence of his existence if they are already sure that his lack of existence is a 100% certainty?

Double standards?

But I must respond to this first. Yes, I am 100% certain.

I arrived at this certainty by studying the notion of gods, their history, how they came about and the human need that creates them. I have learnt that human beings have always created gods to fill in the gaps of their knowledge, that they evolve their idea of their god the more knowledge they acquire, and that they abandon their gods and adopt new ones when the old ones become implausible to believe anymore. I have found these to be consistent for all the gods that have ever existed.

To make it worse, those who claim their gods exist, tend to believe their gods exist without realising, it would seem, that the mere fact that they claim to 'believe' their gods exist is sufficient to denote that they do not actually 'know' their gods exist. They then use anecdotal evidence to attempt to prove the existence of the god they believe exists.

As an atheist, I ask those who claim to believe in the existence of gods to present evidence for their claim. If the theists didn't go about making such false claims to me, I wouldn't have to ask them to prove it. I do not, for instance ask believers in the existence of aliens or fairys to prove aliens or fairys exist if they don't stand in my face and ask me to believe they exist! Also, the belief in gods has a detrimental effect on the society I live in and the people around me so it concerns me. The mere fact they blast their nonsense through a speaker affects me, and the way they make the people around me reason is detrimental to the development of the society we share.

budaatum:

But I must respond to this first. Yes, I am 100% certain.

I arrived at this certainty by studying the notion of gods, their history, how they came about and the human need that creates them. I have learnt that human beings have always created gods to fill in the gaps of their knowledge, that they evolve their idea of their god the more knowledge they acquire, and that they abandon their gods and adopt new ones when the old ones become implausible to believe anymore. I have found these to be consistent for all the gods that have ever existed.

To make it worse, those who claim their gods exist, tend to believe their gods exist without realising, it would seem, that the mere fact that they claim to 'believe' their gods exist is sufficient to denote that they do not actually 'know' their gods exist. They then use anecdotal evidence to attempt to prove the existence of the god they believe exists.

As an atheist, I ask those who claim to believe in the existence of gods to present evidence for their claim. If the theists didn't go about making such false claims to me, I wouldn't have to ask them to prove it. I do not, for instance ask believers in the existence of aliens or fairys to prove aliens or fairys exist if they don't stand in my face and ask me to believe they exist! Also, the belief in gods has a detrimental effect on the society I live in and the people around me so it concerns me. The mere fact they blast their nonsense through a speaker affects me, and the way they make the people around me reason is detrimental to the development of the society we share.

Simply put, your position was as a result of self experienced evidence which is not universally verifiable. I hope it's becoming clearer now?

Notice the usage of the terms I and me a lot in your statement and where they were utilized and then you would realise that you are speaking for yourself and not all atheists and I can regard your negative faith as absolute but obviously not so for both Frank and dalaman.

butterflyl1on:


You don't know. But do you believe in this possibility?

The universe can have one, two, three or many creators. It's a possible. But in the absence of any clea ad direct evidence of the creators, I'll simply say that I don't know.


.

I am actually being very plain and not playing games. If you are asking me for a definition and an explanation of what God is in a clear concise manner this simply means you have your own view or definition of who or what you think God is or SHOULD BE. So I asked you to feel free to define or explain him in your own way and then answer your own question using your own definition and explanation. This is fair enough isn't it?

Its not fair. You asked if I believe in God and I asked you to explain what God is in clear terms so that I low exactly what you are talking about. I do NOT have thoughts of what God should be that is why I said you should define and explain what God is s the we know exactly what you are talking about.

author=dalaman post=64480087]

The universe can have one, two, three or many creators. It's a possible. But in the absence of any clea ad direct evidence of the creators, I'll simply say that I don't know

.

Why would you even consider that the universe can have one, two or three or many creators? Let's set aside the absence of any clear direct evidence for this. What I want to know is why you would even have such a notion about the universe probably have a creator or creators and are simply seeking evidence for or against your already existing notion. Why?

.

Its not fair. You asked if I believe in God and I asked you to explain what God is in clear terms so that I low exactly what you are talking about. I do NOT have thoughts of what God should be that is why I said you should define and explain what God is s the we know exactly what you are talking about.

If you do not have thought of what God should be why then do you need a definition from me? Surely my definition wouldn't make any sense to you since you say you have no thoughts of what God should be.

So I am giving you a blank slate now to simply imagine what a God should be like and if it satisfies you, then you can go ahead and answer your own question.

butterflyl1on:
.

Why would you even consider that the universe can have one, two or three or many creators? Let's set aside the absence of any clear direct evidence for this. What I want to know is why you would even have such a notion about the universe probably have a creator or creators and are simply seeking evidence for or against your already existing notion. Why?

Because the universe looks like something that could have being a creation of something or somethings.

.

If you do not have thought of what God should be why then do you need a definition from me? Surely my definition wouldn't make any sense to you since you say you have no thoughts of what God should be.

So I am giving you a blank slate now to simply imagine what a God should be like and if it satisfies you, then you can go ahead and answer your own question.

You asked me if God exist. What is God? What is your understanding and definition of God?

butterflyl1on:



On answer 2 you are now becoming clearer. Allow me to post your number 2 answer.



I did tell you that my questions were 3 DIFFERENT questions so I surely wouldn't be alluding that the designer of the universe is God would I?

So for question 1 and 2 your answers now were I DONT KNOW but earlier you said and I quote



In your comment you said you don't believe and don't care but just now you said YOU DON'T KNOW IF

1. A DESIGNER OF THE UNIVERSE EXISTS
2. IF GOD EXISTS.

how can you in one comment say you do not believe God exists or a known creator exists and in another comment say I DON'T KNOW IF SUCH EXISTS?

double standards?

Budaatum by now you should be getting a hint of where I am going with this.

I have honestly told u i dont know... cant u see my unbelief is as a result of a total lack of knowledge?
Whats dpuble standard here?

Why arw u feeling like u hit a gold mine?

butterflyl1on:


Simply put, your position was as a result of self experienced evidence which is not universally verifiable. I hope it's becoming clearer now?

No. You are wrong. It is not based on 'experience'! It is based on an assessment of the historical, psychological, anecdotal, archaeological, metaphysical and theistic, to name but a few sources of evidence for gods. There is nothing self about it apart from I myself performing the investigation.

Do note that while I am aware that performing the investigation, is an experience, I am ensuring to differentiate from a god encountering - talking donkey or angels and burning bush type of - experience.

butterflyl1on:

Notice the usage of the terms I and me a lot in your statement and where they were utilized and then you would realise that you are speaking for yourself....

I am speaking for myself! We afterall, all have different journeys to our atheistic views. That does not however imply that the evidence itself is 'self generated', or anecdotal. Basically, I am claiming a tree fell in a forest, whatever one wishes to think or believe

You will note this fact earlier in the thread when it was pointed out to you that personal opinion is not what proves gods exist or not. You, yourself pointed out that the atheist was proving gods exist.

One (the subject) can peruse the evidence, albeit empirically, but objectively, to arrive at a conclusion.

frank317:


I have honestly told u i dont know... cant u see my unbelief is as a result of a total lack of knowledge?
Whats dpuble standard here?

Why arw u feeling like u hit a gold mine?

Let me post a portion of your comment again so you would see it yourself

I don't believe a known creator of the world exists

.

Your comment above is an absolute one. Yet again here you are saying I DONT KNOW. which in itself is not an absolute statement.

Tell me you cannot understand your own comment which is in black and white here.

author=budaatum post=64480742]
No. You are wrong. It is not based on 'experience'! It is based on an assessment of the historical, psychological, anecdotal, archaeological, metaphysical and theistic, to name but a few sources of evidence for gods. There is nothing self about it apart from I myself performing the investigation

Who assessed and chose to understand them? YOU and for YOU. You did not assess or choose to understand what you said you did for the sake of others but for yourself and that is why it is a self experienced evidential thing.

Do note that while I am aware that performing the investigation, is an experience, I am ensuring to differentiate from a god encountering - talking donkey or angels and burning bush type of - experience.

I wasn't factoring those in.

I am speaking for myself! We afterall, all have different journeys to our atheistic views. That does not however imply that the evidence itself is 'self generated', or anecdotal. Basically, I am claiming a tree fell in a forest, whatever one wishes to think or believe

The evidence doesn't have to be self generated but they were chosen to be SELF BELIEVED.

You will note this fact earlier in the thread when it was pointed out to you that personal opinion is not what proves gods exist or not. You, yourself pointed out that the atheist was proving gods exist.

I never said it was personal opinion I said it was each individuals experiences which to them are self evidences of God being real or God not being real. It's all a personal experience.

One (the subject) can peruse the evidence, albeit empirically, but objectively, to arrive at a conclusion.

Still a self experienced evidential process.

H