ScienceWatch:
I will simplify my comments on this for the benefit of the humble. I must emphasize that the core of the gospels are spiritual, it is not secular.
I can agree with you that some Atheists are birthed when the promises in the Gospels dont materialize/manifest in their churches, thereby creating doubts. If Atheists were as honest and smart as you say they are, they would have quickly found, that the real solution for their doubts are not embedded in what you say it could be. Their solution will not be found in the "study of the evolution of all religions." Nor will it be found in comparing the original doctrines with so-called twisted lies.

The core of the gospels are deeply spiritual not secular. The Gospels can never be examined the way the Atheists examine it and expect to extract truth. This is totally impossible.

Your following comment is loaded with serious contradictions when you say, "I noticed that these atheists are actually honest with themselves and are smart to pick out these fallacies...but in the course of identifying these fallacies, they get annoyed and throw out the baby (truth) with the bathing water (lies)."

Experience proves that an honest, smart person will never throw the baby out with the bath water. That is the actions of a madman. Your comments has actually served to highlight the serious mental deficiencies of the Atheists mind and its inherent dangers to humanity, especially when they get into positions of power.
I am certain that many esteemed Nairalanders can explain this much better such as; Sonofthunder, Butterflylion, Vaxx, Bennyann, Bloodofthelamb,
KingEbukasBlog,

Salvation101, Felixomor, Scholar8200, Veron265, SpeedndAccuracy, Daviddson, An2elect2 , overcomersfaith,
MsNgo40, Julivas,
jiggaz,
JesusSonOfGod,
Goshen360,
Oracle16, flamingREED, ichuka, petra1, salvation101, 5solas, analice107, temitemi,

The core of the gospels are deeply spiritual therefore it is impossible for an Atheist/Godhater to enter into that hallowed ground to gather verified truth.

OkCornel:


I guess this is where you got me wrong. The first step to salvation is belief and faith. However, when this faith becomes theory, unproductive, absolutely nothing to show for it...even when you are in the vine (courtesy of your faith and belief)...what fate befalls such a person?

I am talking of a productive faith being the real deal. That was why I said Faith + Works and not just faith alone. To further buttress this...the thief on the cross had faith in Jesus...and that was enough to get to him to heaven...why? he genuinely believed in Christ..and that moved Jesus into making a promise. A promise I believe is extended to everyone who sincerely repents of their evil ways. But I have this question to ask, if the thief had survived the crucifixion and went on to live a long life with no fruits of the spirit to show for it...and he even turns back to his old ways of stealing, raping and killing despite knowing and confessing Jesus as Messiah...what will then happen? Will Jesus welcome him with these words "welcome my good and faithful servant"?

Good question.

Pfornicate that letter not to congratulate and validate them on being babes in Christ despite the works of the flesh evident in their lives.
Rather, Paul admonishes they grow in the faith. They cannot afford to remain babies forever and think God would clap for them...when more is expected of them. To whom much is given...more is expected...kindly refer to the parable of the talents again

If you want to have an idea of God's attitude to certain churches, especially those that refuse to grow, check out the message to the 7 churches in the book of Revelation. There's a church that blows hot and cold (i.e. lack of consistency growing in the faith, one step forward...3 steps backwards) which is quite irritating..and what's the result...they are treated as expelled spittle off the mouth

Another good observation. Per the bolded, I want to ask you a question...how will our African ancestors who never heard of Jesus be judged?

This is the way I see it...correct me if I'm wrong and give me your answers. A man who never heard of Jesus in his entire life, but knows the truth and lives a truthful life (afterall Jesus is the Truth), what shall be his fate? The man may never have heard the name Jesus, but that man is a follower of Jesus by living a sincere, truthful life.

I will further read up on the judgement of works as you referred me to in the passage above as per Corinthians...

I have another puzzling question to ask for learning sake...

What could cause a Pastor to go to hell despite believing Jesus and doing marvelous works for Him only to hear on the last day "I KNOW YOU NOT!"...is this possible or am I just imagining things? could it be lack of LOVE or substitution of personal walk with God for religious activities?

I concur, we are always learning..that's why I tell myself... I DO NOT KNOW IT ALL

When the bible states that "the sea gave up its dead"...it never stated if these dead are saved or not. Nothing in the great white throne judgment is for the saved alone...unless I'm mixing things up here. Afterall, there must be a judgement that would separate the sheep from the goats.

Last few questions...
Based on the above you typed...I just want to be clear that I'm not misunderstanding you.

Are you saying that confessing and believing Jesus is the LORD by mouth...but living a lifestyle that is not consistent with your confessions would take you to heaven?

If so, does this mean there are no Christians in hell? I mean those who made this confession and still found their way there?

damosky12:


Do you know that as logical as you sound with the theory of steps to salvation, the Bible never teach that. There is no where you hear "After that ye believed, work so that you may be accepted of my father". No!
Does that not seem a subtle way of saying, " you are not completely saved by grace, you need works too"? But, you know what? The Bible never contradicts when studied well. I always study a material from its clearer statements to those not clear. I find Ephesians 2:8 very clear on this question.

Ephesians 2:8
[8]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

It actually used SAVED. It didn't say, "by grace you are being saved". Hence, don't you think that debunks the theory of steps?

See this too
Romans 3:21-22
[21]But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[22]Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

He seems to say those that have faith in Jesus as their Lord are righteous. He calls it the righteousness of God.

See this again,

Romans 10:1,3-4
[1]Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
[3]For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
[4]For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Yet another chapter talking about the righteousness of God. That righteousness seems to come by just believing.
It is, in fact, called a free gift in chapter 5:16-17.

All these suggest that one's complete safety is taken care of in Christ.



You know what, our minds have, overtime, been trained in the world that when you offend, you are punished. That's not the case here. Its actually easy to make a submission like yours... But the Bible shows us that the new testament man is not judged by his sins, of what need is the term "saved by grace" or "under grace (unmerited acceptance)" if one is really not saved after all? This is what John wrote to Christians:
1 John 2-2
[1]My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:[2]And he is the propitiation for our sins...

Besides, I'd like you to know that the new testament man doesn't find sin comfortable with his Spirit. No one becomes born again and just falls in love with stealing, telling lies. No one! If you find Christians involved in this, like the Corinthian Christians, they haven't outgrown the flesh yet.
A Christian has the Holy Spirit in his Spirit (Ephesians 1:13). He has love in his Spirit (ROM 5:5). Now, you see him do something wrong because his mind is simply not renewed to succumb to his Spirit.
The Spirit man, which is the real man is perfect. The imperfections come from the flesh. Now, what goes to heaven or hell? The Spirit or the body? The Spirit does!
If a Christian is perfect in his Spirit man, will the inability to produce that perfection in the flesh send the Spirit to hell? The Spirit is perfect after all. God works in that Spirit. How will that Spirit go to hell?




Thanks for approaching this.

The parable of talent doesn't deal with people who are in Christ. I'll leave it at that. Let's start from the VERY obvious to get to the not so obvious. It helps curb confusion.
After all, the Bible doesn't contradict.

Do you know that it is the same Corinthian church that had problems with fornication, taking each other to court, speaking against Paul's apostolic authority over them. Paul admonished them to grow, that's right. But there was NEVER any mention of the possibility of going to hell. I thought if one isn't saved by just believing but by works also, Paul should have shown them the red sign that 'hey! you may go to hell'. On the contrary, he says 'you do those things because you are 'babies in Christ'. In Christ? These guys were actually living in the flesh.

It is this same guys he told have been called to Jesus (1Cor 1:9). He said the testimony of Christ is confirmed in them (verse 6). In fact, he said:
1 Corinthians 1:30
[30]But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness...
1 Corinthians 3:23
[23] And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

Aren't you seeing what I am seeing?




You refer to the Laodicean church in Revelation 3:14. Yet, it doesn't refer to their lack of Spiritual growth but a total neglect of Spiritual things for materialism.

Revelation 3:17
[17]Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

They lost zeal for God. That means they stopped praying, coming to church, studying, etc. Verse 19 even says "be zealous and repent". Verse 20 makes it clearer.
Revelation 3:20
[20]Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

These guys clearly neglected Christ. The funny thing is that they may be doing good (afrerall they had money), giving to the poor, not fighting each other, etc. But they lost the zeal for Christ, for fellowship, for prayer and the likes. Why would Christ be knocking on the doors of their heart to get their attention?

The Corinthian church couldn't have been that way, even though they were babies in Christ. Why?

1 Corinthians 1:6
[6]Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

They were really into Christ. They were passionate about Spiritual things.

1 Corinthians 14:12
[12]Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

These guys had zeal. They were actually hot. That they were babies only means they had not yielded their emotions and leadings to God's leading in the way they related with each other. That's what makes them babies (immature) in Christ. Yet, they spoke with tongues, they manifested the gifts of the Spirit, the testimony of Christ is confirmed in them. That means these ones are really saved. Yet, without works. It helps us agree with Ephesians 2:8. "you are saved by grace through faith... not of yourself"




That's not difficult. Faith in God (not in gods) had been existent even in the days of Enoch. Hebrews 11:5. Abraham was justified by that faith. Gen 15:6. Noah found grace by that faith. etc.
Before, Jesus came to die, he was believed in figuratively by those who accepted God. See this,

Hebrews 11:19
[19]Accounting that God was able to raise him (Isaac) up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him (Christ) in a figure.

Hence, the law was given with focus on recognising, accepting and loving God.

Now, Paul makes this clear...
Romans 2:14-15
[14]For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
[15]Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts...

So, those who lived before Jesus are accepted on the basis of their believing and the acceptance of the Lordship of the Supreme One who created heaven and earth. To accept this is to accept Jesus in a figure. People who believed thus were not necessarily perfect (just like Abraham who lied, slept with his maid or Noah who got drunk and slept with his kids), but accepted based on accepting God's lordship.

No one rejects the authority of God or His existence and be accepted on the basis of good works. How Biblical is that?




You scratched the surface. There are and were atheist who lived good, moral, well behaved, generous, etc. Is that a truthful life.
That truthful life you mean is what I described above. That's the life that the old testament saints lived.




Please do. You'll like it. Note the phrase.
1 Corinthians 3:15
[15]If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; ...

It'll put every thing in perspective. Note where he us coming from too. How that he is speaking about how he had planted (worked), Apolos watered (worked). Nothing there could help think that discussion was about sinners.




Matthew 7:22-23
[22]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Why do we sometimes think Jesus isnt being truthful?
He said I NEVER KNEW YOU. Not for once!
That means they were NEVER saved.
Jesus didn't say, 'I know you no more'. He said I NEVER KNEW YOU. That means He never did. They were never " saved by grace through faith".
Those guys were telling lies. They could have had some stage managed miracles.
But, they were not saved.






The sheep are separate from the goats na. Why would they all have to be on a queue. God cannot be confused.
That parable that talks about the end of the world and the sheep being severed from the goats is RAPTURE.
How will the saints rapture to be with Christ and still end up on the same queue or judgement place with unbelievers? How does that meet up?

1 Thessalonians 4:17
[17]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Think about these. Revelations 20 doesn't have to be confused.

I revealed clearly from there the other time how those judgements differ. The saints gets the judgement of reward as recorded in the book of life of them.
The unbelievers are not written at all.



I believe you are reading this well. As I said, anyone who receives the gospel has the Holy Spirit in his Spirit. His Spirit becomes alive to God. He has the fruits of the Spirit in his Spirit (the real him). What became born again is his Spirit. Not the body.
Now, its the Spirit of a man that goes to hell, not body. How will a Spirit of a born again man go to hell?

If he continually lives waywardly, the problem is not from him. Its from the church where he is or from those who led him to Christ. As long as a man believes the gospel and accepts the Lordship of Jesus, he is saved. What is left is the place of the cleansing and renewal (ROM 12:2) of his mind so as to be able to produce good works on earth.
The Spirit of a saved man is saved. He believes and accepts the gospel of Jesus with the Spirit (ROM 10:10) not the mind. So, while his Spirit is saved, his mind isn't. That's the cause of the wrong things he does. Its from the disconnection of his Spirit from his mind.





Never. No one is in Christ (accepted the gospel and lordship of Jesus) and goes to hell. Except he never accepted the gospel.

Where is the gift if righteousness he has in his Spirit (ROM 5:16-17)?
Where is the SEAL he has in Christ (Ephesians 4:30)?
Where is the eternal inheritance we have in Him (Hebrews 9:15)?

A Christian, one who believes the gospel of Jesus Christ and has accepted his Lordship, from all that I have gathered and gathering from careful study of the Bible, can not go to hell. His Spirit is saved and perfected. That Spirit can not go to hell.

OkCornel:


I fully accept what you said here. But per the bolded (red), let me clear the air a bit.

People react differently when they "feel" they have been deceived by religion and religious people for so long. When they realize this...some may not manage their emotions (hatred and anger) properly...and they vent it blindly on the religious system and God eventually.

Then there are others who are hurt quite alright...but they get a grip on their emotions unlike Cain...and they handle the situation well...until they have a personal encounter with God to know Him for who He truly is.

Not all atheists are the same. Some are reasonable..then some are fanatical in their hatred.

ScienceWatch:
Thank you kindly for clearing the air about the bolded(Red). I sense that you have a heart for the lost, Sir.

It will be of great benefit and personal protection to true Christians to obey the wise biblical instruction; DO NOT THROW YOUR PEARLS OF WISDOM TO THE SWINE, THEY WILL TRAMPLE ON IT, THEN TURN AND REND YOU.

Jesus said it this way, "THE harvest is ripe........
We know that a good farmer will not send his workers into the farm to pick unripe fruit.

Only the ripe fruit will be picked. Atheists here are not ready for ultimate TRUTH.
Those that are ripe can quickly see real life evidence of the superior power of ultimate TRUTH by viewing Emmanuel TV and others.

damosky12:



Oga... Don't come and derail this thread. I once took you up, correcting your errors but you seem fixated in Jesus' parables and James. The Bible is replete with teachings on how a Christian is saved by faith alone and not by works.

Please, I don't have time to go into a fruitless discussion

OkCornel:


There's another perspective to it though. Atheists here may not be ready for the TRUTH yet because they are not ripe enough to...but I'm certain the open minded ones among them will get there.

It's just that, when you feed a newborn baby...you don't force meat on the baby...rather, milk would be appropriate.

I am still trying to connect the dots on the milk that can apply to an open minded atheist though. But, the answer will certainly come. If the Eternal Creator has not given up on them...neither will I relent.

May His Spirit be with us all...now and always. Amen.

ScienceWatch:
Excellent points Sir, May the Holy Spirit release His power through you for the glory of the creator God.

ScienceWatch:
I will simplify my comments on this for the benefit of the humble. I must emphasize that the core of the gospels are spiritual, it is not secular.
I can agree with you that some Atheists are birthed when the promises in the Gospels dont materialize/manifest in their churches, thereby creating doubts. If Atheists were as honest and smart as you say they are, they would have quickly found, that the real solution for their doubts are not embedded in what you say it could be. Their solution will not be found in the "study of the evolution of all religions." Nor will it be found in comparing the original doctrines with so-called twisted lies.

The core of the gospels are deeply spiritual not secular. The Gospels can never be examined the way the Atheists examine it and expect to extract truth. This is totally impossible.

Your following comment is loaded with serious contradictions when you say, "I noticed that these atheists are actually honest with themselves and are smart to pick out these fallacies...but in the course of identifying these fallacies, they get annoyed and throw out the baby (truth) with the bathing water (lies)."

Experience proves that an honest, smart person will never throw the baby out with the bath water. That is the actions of a madman. Your comments has actually served to highlight the serious mental deficiencies of the Atheists mind and its inherent dangers to humanity, especially when they get into positions of power.
I am certain that many esteemed Nairalanders can explain this much better such as; Sonofthunder, Butterflylion, Vaxx, Bennyann, Bloodofthelamb,
KingEbukasBlog,

Salvation101, Felixomor, Scholar8200, Veron265, SpeedndAccuracy, Daviddson, An2elect2 , overcomersfaith,
MsNgo40, Julivas,
jiggaz,
JesusSonOfGod,
Goshen360,
Oracle16, flamingREED, ichuka, petra1, salvation101, 5solas, analice107, temitemi,

The core of the gospels are deeply spiritual therefore it is impossible for an Atheist/Godhater to enter into that hallowed ground to gather verified truth.

OkCornel:


I'll explain the process better. Atheism with an open mind was what I meant. I didn't have an attitude of hatred towards anything really. My mind was quite blank and neutral to spiritual matters...just as how a baby's mind is pretty much blank when he or she is birthed into this world.

That was what I meant as "atheism" being my first step...or unless I'm mistaking that for agnosticism...but the basic thing was...I had to format my mental hard disk drive on matters relating to religion, doctrine, spirit world and all that stuff...

Then I allowed the TRUTH to start the rebuilding process.

The first question I asked myself was this: "Do I have to be a Christian or Muslim or whatever to believe there will be a sun in the sky tomorrow?"

I'll explain my "born again" experience and put a link to a diary I was updating with my alternate moniker in the next post on this thread.

ScienceWatch:
Thank you for taking the time to explain all this Sir. I know that it is extremely difficult to put spiritual experiences into words.
I think you are doing a wonderful job. May the Holy Spirit continue to empower you in the light.
I will go view your diary, thanks for sharing.

Allow me to add something very, very powerful that the mighty Jesus Christ said to guide our thinking about unbelievers/Godhaters;

1)Have you ever wondered why many people have a hard time honoring Jesus?
Here Jesus explains this problem very clearly.
Joh 6:65 And Jesus said, I have said to you, that no one can come to me and believe the WORKS I am doing, except if the true God sends them to me.


2) Joh 5:22 For the true God judge no man, but has committed all judgment unto the Son:

3) Joh 5:23 That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who has sent him.

ScienceWatch:
Thank you for taking the time to explain all this Sir. I know that it is extremely difficult to put spiritual experiences into words.
I think you are doing a wonderful job. May the Holy Spirit continue to empower you in the light.
I will go view your diary, thanks for sharing.

Allow me to add something very, very powerful that the mighty Jesus Christ said to guide our thinking about unbelievers/Godhaters;

1)Have you ever wondered why many people have a hard time honoring Jesus?
Here Jesus explains this problem very clearly.
Joh 6:65 And Jesus said, I have said to you, that no one can come to me and believe the WORKS I am doing, except if the true God sends them to me.


2) Joh 5:22 For the true God judge no man, but has committed all judgment unto the Son:

3) Joh 5:23 That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who has sent him.

Niflheim:
@Hardmirror,

I must say, I have also been thinking what you have been thinking!!!

This occurred to me, the day that Freeze asked how come out of over 2 million camera phones in Lagos, not a single witch flying has been captured on film(a typical question that non-believers have asked for years)!!!