Zikkyy:

'master' olaadegbu, if you believe your position is the truth why not defend, instead of spreading baseless accusations.

I'll repeat one more time, its either you dont read or you have problem intrepeting what you read. Maybe you post out of frustration. Nobody is against paying tribute to God or giving to God, this is simpe enough for you to understand. All you need to do is provide evidence that God requested a compulsory tributeof 10% of our earnings be paid to the pastor. Thats all.

This is a case of a pot calling a kettle black.  Who is the accuser here?  Who doesn't understand the topic at hand?  You stylishly now admit that paying tribute to God is acceptable.  Tell me, what's the difference between paying tribute to God and paying tithes?  This is what is called shooting yourselves in the foot.  Who told you that tithes should be compulsorily paid to pastors?

Stewardship in the New Testament church today.

"And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.  And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.  And He called to him His disciples, and said to them, Verily I say to you.  That this poor widow has cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury.  For all they did cast in of their abundance, but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living." -- Mark 12:41-44

Jesus spoke much about money.  He said that we cannot serve God and mammon (Matthew 6:24).  "Mammon" was the common Aramaic word for riches, which is related to a Hebrew word signifying "that which is to be trusted."  We cannot trust God and money, its either money is our source of Joy, our great love, our sense of security, the supplier of our needs, or God is.

When you open your wallet, give generously and regularly to your local church.  A guide to how much you should give can be found in the "tithe" of the Old Testament, which is 10% of your income.  Whatever amount you give, make sure you give something to the work of God (Malachi 3:8-11).  Give because you want to, not because you have to.  God loves a cheerful giver (2 Corinthians 9:6.7), learn to hold your money with a loose hand, don't let your money go straight to your head, use it to store up blessings where moth and rats would not be able to get to.

@Olaadegbu:
As I see it, you are quick to tar those who disagree with your position on tithes as discouraging the work of God. Unfortunately you miss the import of their arguments. What is at stake here is nothing less than what impelled Martin Luther to break away from the RCC---indulgences. And the modern preaching on tithes is nothing less than a modern version of the "sale of indulgences"
Neither myself nor Enigma nor nuclearboy have said anything against giving to the work of God. I believe you are not acquainted with the way these men twist the scriptures to justify their manipulation of their congregation, otherwise you would not take the position you do.
A question for you Olaadegbu: Are you under the curse of the law or under the grace of Jesus?

OLAADEGBU:

Stewardship in the New Testament church today.

"And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.  And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.  And He called to him His disciples, and said to them, Verily I say to you.  That this poor widow has cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury.  For all they did cast in of their abundance, but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living." -- Mark 12:41-44

Jesus spoke much about money.  He said that we cannot serve God and mammon (Matthew 6:24).  "Mammon" was the common Aramaic word for riches, which is related to a Hebrew word signifying "that which is to be trusted."  We cannot trust God and money, its either money is our source of Joy, our great love, our sense of security, the supplier of our needs, or God is.

When you open your wallet, give generously and regularly to your local church.  A guide to how much you should give can be found in the "tithe" of the Old Testament, which is 10% of your income.  Whatever amount you give, make sure you give something to the work of God (Malachi 3:8-11).  Give because you want to, not because you have to.  God loves a cheerful giver (2 Corinthians 9:6.7), learn to hold your money with a loose hand, don't let your money go straight to your head, use it to store up blessings where moth and rats would not be able to get to.

The example of giving that we are called to follow is sacrificial after the pattern of Jesus even up to 100%, something you yourself pointed out above in Mark 12. Not the manipulative, self-righteous 10% of your income that is preached. Moreover to preach tithes scripturally is one tenth of farm produce not salary or wages, something you are willfully ignoring.
You concluded your post with these words: Give because you want to, not because you have to. God loves a cheerful giver (2 Corinthians 9:6.7), learn to hold your money with a loose hand, don't let your money go straight to your head, use it to store up blessings where moth and rats would not be able to get to.
Unfortunately you have mixed it with the leaven of tithes legalism.
May God grant you grace as you ponder these words.

[sighs deeply]

I'm beginning to get really tired of following this thread . . . no thanks to olaadegu & tonye-t's embarrasing comments

alethiea, nuclearboy, ttalks, zikky, ogajim et al. . . una get power o!

OLAADEGBU:

This is a case of a pot calling a kettle black.  Who is the accuser here?  Who doesn't understand the topic at hand?  You stylishly now admit that paying tribute to God is acceptable.  Tell me, what's the difference between paying tribute to God and paying tithes?  This is what is called shooting yourselves in the foot.  Who told you that tithes should be compulsorily paid to pastors?  

Finally, master olaadegbu, i can see you took my advice and tasked your brain a little. This is good. I am really happy to see this. keep it up.

OLAADEGBU:

Jesus spoke much about money.  He said that we cannot serve God and mammon (Matthew 6:24).  "Mammon" was the common Aramaic word for riches, which is related to a Hebrew word signifying "that which is to be trusted."  We cannot trust God and money, its either money is our source of Joy, our great love, our sense of security, the supplier of our needs, or God is.

You even made some bit of sense here. I think there is hope for you afterall.

OLAADEGBU:

A guide to how much you should give can be found in the "tithe" of the Old Testament, which is 10% of your income.  Whatever amount you give, make sure you give something to the work of God (Malachi 3:8-11).

aahh, looks like i was wrong. i begin to think you were in your lucid interval when you made the initial posts. You dont need malachi 3 as guide to tithing, master olaadegbu. You are also wrong linking tithing to financing the work of God.

aletheia:

@Olaadegbu:
As I see it, you are quick to tar those who disagree with your position on tithes as discouraging the work of God. Unfortunately you miss the import of their arguments. What is at stake here is nothing less than what impelled Martin Luther to break away from the RCC---indulgences. And the modern preaching on tithes is nothing less than a modern version of the "sale of indulgences"

I think it is better for you to speak up for yourself instead of fronting for those who don't know their right from their left.  Martin Luther broke away from RCC because of the unbiblical practices.  Tithing has been in place even before the Mosaic Law, it was not institued by Moses neither was it abrogated by Jesus Christ.  Jesus said that He did not come to break the Law but to fulfil it.  He gave us the proper interpretation of the Law and summarised it into one Law which is Love.  All other laws hang on this, if you are truly born again you will have the love of God in your heart and this love which works by faith will keep you from breaking all other laws.  If you love God you will love His work by paying your tithes and offering cheerfully, willingly not grudgingly. If you love your neighbour you will not steal from him.

aletheia:

Neither myself nor Enigma nor nuclearboy have said anything against giving to the work of God. I believe you are not acquainted with the way these men twist the scriptures to justify their manipulation of their congregation, otherwise you would not take the position you do.

What is tithe and what is giving to the work of God?  The fact that charlatans manipulate what belongs to God does not mean we should abandone God's Will.  The enemy always tries to desecrate whatever God has consecrated this does not mean that we should commit sacrilege as a result of it.

aletheia:

A question for you Olaadegbu: Are you under the curse of the law or under the grace of Jesus?

I am under the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ but that does not give me the licence to commit sacrilege.

aletheia:

The example of giving that we are called to follow is sacrificial after the pattern of Jesus even up to 100%, something you yourself pointed out above in Mark 12. Not the manipulative, self-righteous 10% of your income that is preached. Moreover to preach tithes scripturally is one tenth of farm produce not salary or wages, something you are willfully ignoring.

1 Cor. 4:1,2; Romans 14:12; Matthew 25:20-30; 1 Peter 4:10; Luke 12:42; 1 Timothy 6:19, 20; 2 Corinthians 9:1-9

From the passages above, if you care to read them, you will realise that a good grasp of the Bible doctrine of stewardship will lead us to surrender all our material wealth to God and give to Him in joy and gratitude.

Stewardship is giving ourselves to God and using our human and material resources for the glory of God and allowing Him to have first place in our lives.  As believers, we are in charge of God's material and financial assets and are called to be faithful stewards of all our possessions.  We are called to a life of giving which goes beyond paying tithe, which is the minimum.

The uniform testimony of the Scriptures and the united proclamation of all enlightened saints is that God owns all the earth and the fulness thereof by creation.  Beyond the realisation and submission of the average believer, God has the right of ownership on the believer's life, time and possession.  The believer is therefore to allow God an unhindered access to everything He has put in his care.  Except his time, money and talent are spent as His Word, will and work demand, he is not in perfect, harmonious fellowship with God.

Giving is one of the greatest challenges of the Christian life and one of the greatest privileges that we enjoy as believers.  However, many believers are yet to discover the great potential in giving.  Why?  Because they are yet to understand the Bible doctrine of stewardship and biblical principle of giving.  Lack of money is not the problem; it is actually a hazy understanding of our responsibilities as stewards of God's money.

Some Christians, however, think that tithe is all that God requires of them.  How wrong they are!  Tithe is the minimum giving God expects of us.  He expects us to give more to Him by way of freewill giving, love offering, thanks offering and sacrificial giving.  In fact, the Scriptures command us to give to God, to His saints, to the Body of Christ and to our fellow men (Deut. 16:17; Matthew 6:3; 2 Cor. 9:7).  God who is generous with His manifold mercies, deserves nothing less from us.  Our tithes, love offering and freewill offerings are "an odour of sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, well pleasing unto God." -- Philipians 4:18 

Giving a tenth of your income and even more is a vital aspect of our Christian giving.  This is because it does show, in practical terms, our acknowledgement of the fact that God owns everything.

aletheia:

You concluded your post with these words: Give because you want to, not because you have to. God loves a cheerful giver (2 Corinthians 9:6.7), learn to hold your money with a loose hand, don't let your money go straight to your head, use it to store up blessings where moth and rats would not be able to get to.
Unfortunately you have mixed it with the leaven of tithes legalism.
May God grant you grace as you ponder these words.

If you kick up dust everytime you hear 10% of your income or property who do you want to convince that you are prepared to pay 100%?  In other words, if you can't pay 10% which is the minimum don't even talk about being a steward of God's blessing because you will be contradicting yourself.

^^^ When the apostle Paul was asking for a collection for poor saints, why didn't he ask the Corinthians to make sure that their giving was a tithe (or a tenth) of their income? Why did he say each one of them should decide in his heart what to give? Why didn't he say the minimum was a tithe (or a tenth)?

Enigma:

^^^ When the apostle Paul was asking for a collection for poor saints, why didn't he ask the Corinthians to make sure that their giving was a tithe (or a tenth) of their income? Why did he say each one of them should decide in his heart what to give? Why didn't he say the minimum was a tithe (or a tenth)?

"Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God has prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come." -- 1 Cor. 16:2

He didn't have to because the believers where constrained by love to give and where not under any pressure. The love of God makes believers in Christ to go the extra mile, to spend and be spent for the sake of the gospel and the brethren.

The verse above shows how the disciples continued in such practice and from here you can see that they were not only gathering tithes and offering but did this on the first day of the week, which reveals that they used to meet regularly on Sundays instead of Saturdays. You didn't have to force them to give as they gave willingly, cheerfully and proportionately (as the Lord prospered them).

In th OT, the purpose of giving tithe was to meet material needs of the Levites, the stranger, the fatherless (the orphan), and the widow (Deut.26:12,13). Believers are to give tithes and offering for the support of the work of the gospel. Besides, they are expected to be generous in sharing their material possessions with the poor. What is the secret of prosperity? Giving. What is the essence of Biblical giving? Jesus said that it is more blessed to give than to receive. Biblical giving centres on the ability to earn material resources and the willingness to let these resources be used for the maximum benefit of the kingdom of God.

I've always believed in the quickening of the mind by the HS. Things have become easier to grasp for me since that day 23 years ago and its obvious why Christ said not to worry what we'd say when presenting/defending the Gospel - sharpness is innate in Christians! Where I come across a dimwit, its obvious the HS does not reside in such persons as idiocy and the HS are opposites. Olaadegbu is a dimwit and proud to boot.

How can someone say "tithes came before the law" and then immediately say "Jesus did not come to abrogate the law but to fulfill it". So He came to fulfill what was not part of the law, ehn? What relationship then does Jesus have to the tithe since its not under the law you say He came to fulfill. Dimwit!

"Lay by yourselves AS God has prospered you" - How does that become "you can see that they were not only gathering tithes and offering but did this on the first day of the week, which reveals that they used to meet regularly on Sundays instead of Saturdays"? Only Sunday? Why not Thursday too?

And of course, greed will always sneak in "garden of eden" tactics: - "What is the secret of prosperity? Giving." So now the essense of Jesus Christ and the Gospel has again become "prosperity". So why does the Bible say a Christian's reward is in Heaven and what would you call someone who changes God's Word?

Its like a broken or scratched record that gets to "give" and can't get past - give give give give give give give give give give! Well the Bible has an answer for the give "gospel". It says you are of the generation of "leeches". Prov 30:15. BTW, it also tells us you are never satisfied and are a "fire". Why people are answering you is not that they think you have a point but because of the silent majority who will visit this thread, read, and quietly go away. They will get the true picture and also come to understand your type and your "gospel".

You guys have any idea why that thread by Nuclearboy was locked/deleted?? I mean the one he title smth like "Tithing Exposed - Tonye-t/Joagbaje/Olaadegbu come rebute this".

I just tried to check it now for any new comments but is now off limits. What happened?

^perhaps what happened was that it had no back-up in nl server before the 'said' crash. Obviously, some pages on this thread are also inaccessible.
The days of mourning are technically over, hahahaha. What's with the flooding of this thread by people who do not even go to a church or think good of such move. Methinks they're unfit to say anything as they have no clue what running a church entails. By their fruits we've seen and known them

nuclearboy:

I've always believed in the quickening of the mind by the HS. Things have become easier to grasp for me since that day 23 years ago and its obvious why Christ said not to worry what we'd say when presenting/defending the Gospel - sharpness is innate in Christians! Where I come across a dimwit, its obvious the HS does not reside in such persons as idiocy and the HS are opposites. Olaadegbu is a dimwit and proud to boot.

Have you heard of the fact that some folks are ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of truth? The Holy Spirit (if that's what you meant by HS) would never lead you to call someone a dimwit, the fact that you can say that reveals the kind of spirit operating in you, could it be Bacchus? Your guess is as good as mine.

nuclearboy:

How can someone say "tithes came before the law" and then immediately say "Jesus did not come to abrogate the law but to fulfill it". So He came to fulfill what was not part of the law, ehn? What relationship then does Jesus have to the tithe since its not under the law you say He came to fulfill. Dimwit!

There were tithing before the law and the One who received it was greater than Abraham and Jesus' Priesthood is after the order of Melchisedec, even the Levites paid tithes in Abraham. The tithes Christians pay today are to this same High Priest who lives forever and was sworn in with an oath after the order of Melchisedec. Jesus did not only fulfill the law we could not keep by paying the penalty on the cross of Calvarly, He also properly interpreted the Law and summarised into one for us to keep. That is why as Christians we do not go out fornicating because we are not under the law.

nuclearboy:

"Lay by yourselves AS God has prospered you" - How does that become "you can see that they were not only gathering tithes and offering but did this on the first day of the week, which reveals that they used to meet regularly on Sundays instead of Saturdays"? Only Sunday? Why not Thursday too?

This is what the verse says: "Upon the first day of the week let everyone of you lay by him in store, as God has prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."[/i]

You can see here that there was gathering of money here to be sent to Jerusalem on Sundays, or how do you read?

nuclearboy:

And of course, greed will always sneak in "garden of eden" tactics: - "What is the secret of prosperity? Giving." So now the essense of Jesus Christ and the Gospel has again become "prosperity".

You just shot yourself in the foot here. Giving does not only have to be financial neither does prosperity only mean wealth. This is the mistake you guys make when you hear the word give or prosperity. Giving of your time, talent, skills and resources are also applicable here. Jesus Christ Himself that it is better to give than to receive. God the Father gave His only begotten Son, Jesus gave His life to pay for the eternal penalty on our behalf. These are both natural and physical principles for us to learn from. Prosperity, as I said is not limited to finance alone, it also includes the prosperity of our souls, health etc,. Paul prayed this prayer:

"Beloved, I wish above all things that you may prosper and be in health, even as your soul prospers." -- 3 John 2

nuclearboy:

[So why does the Bible say a Christian's reward is in Heaven and what would you call someone who changes God's Word?

Really? Does it say that the Christian's reward is only in heaven? I challenge you to quote where it is in Scripture and if you don't it means that you are the one changing God's Word.

nuclearboy:

Its like a broken or scratched record that gets to "give" and can't get past - give give give give give give give give give give! Well the Bible has an answer for the give "gospel". It says you are of the generation of "leeches". Prov 30:15. BTW, it also tells us you are never satisfied and are a "fire". Why people are answering you is not that they think you have a point but because of the silent majority who will visit this thread, read, and quietly go away. They will get the true picture and also come to understand your type and your "gospel".

The Bible is talking of charlatans that make merchandise of you, it does not say that you should not give. There again you can see that you are the one changing Scriptures, it says the horseleach not the generation of leeches, now tell me again who is misquoting scriptures. The gospel I am preaching to you is to make your way right with the Lord and repent otherwise you will likewise perish.

^^^
Mr Bacchus:

Please remember I didn't answer your "now lost" quiz and am not amongst those who informed that they drink. That aside, why don't you ever answer questions or deal with issues but rather turn to slinging these asinine insults. If anyone ever told you that you were funny, they were only trying to make you feel good. You actually sound retarded especially saying the HS won't lead anyone to insult an idiot and then IN THE SAME STATEMENT say the spirit leading a Christian is the "bacchus spirit". So I "insult" you and that makes me anti-HS but you insult the HS in me (abi you're not judging that now by saying it is the spirit of drunkeness) and THAT MAKES you Holy Ghost filled? 

Abraham split the money (spoils of War) two ways - He gave a TENTH (that word, NOT tithes, was used) to Melchizedek and 9/10 back to the King of Sodom. You're preaching the "tenth" as tithe. Are you not supposed to preach the 9/10 too? Remember, these were "spoils of war", not his natural possessions. Why didn't he give his "TITHE" i.e. increase on his income or salary as you preach today? Please PLEASE show us one example of Abraham paying "tithe" or even paying "a tenth" from his personal property.

Jacob promised "a tenth" to God. He decided to do so OF HIS OWN WILL much as the NT asks us to give lovingly, willingly as led by God's Spirit. Why are you lying here again in hopes of furthering your lying argument?

You say you are preaching a gospel that ways be made right but you lie even in what you say. I HAVE NEVER SAID ANYBODY SHOULD NOT GIVE so you are lying against me and using God's Name even in doing so. I give willingly and often. Giving is good and should be encouraged BUT it is a lie that tithes are applicable today to Christians the way you preach.

Both myself and you know that many Isrealis are still following the OT law. Great! So check wikipedia or other Isreali sources - UP TILL TODAY, they pay tithes ONLY on agricultural produce from the LAND! Those are people who "know" how it was and have been following the traditional way for thousands of years - why are they not doing what you are doing OR ARE YOU SAYING the Isrealis don't know and have never known the right way to "pay tithes" and that it was only in the 19th century that the TRUE way was discovered?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithes
"Traditional Jewish law and practice has included various forms of tithing since ancient times. Universally, Orthodox Jews practice ma'aser kesafim (tithing 10% of their income to charity) and take challah. In modern Israel, Jews continue to follow the laws of agricultural tithing, e.g., terumah, ma'aser rishon, terumat ma'aser, and ma'aser sheni. In Christianity, some interpretations of Biblical teachings conclude that although tithing was practiced extensively in the Old Testament, it was never practiced or taught within the first-century Church. Instead the New Testament scriptures are seen as teaching the concept of "freewill offerings" as a means of supporting the church: 1 Corinthians 16:2, 2 Corinthians 9:7. "

"The third year was called "the year of tithing" Deuteronomy 26:12-14 in which the Israelites set aside 10% of the increase of the land, they were to give this tithe to the Levites, strangers, orphans, and widows. These tithes were in reality more like taxes for the people of Israel and were mandatory, not optional giving. This tithe was distributed locally "within thy gates" Deuteronomy 14:28 to support the Levites and assist the poor."

"According to Catholics, as those who serve at the altar should live by the altar 1Cor 9:13, it became necessary for provision of some kind to be made for the sacred ministers.

In the beginning this was supplied by the spontaneous offerings of the faithful. In the course of time, however, as the Church expanded and various institutions arose, it became necessary to make laws which would ensure the proper and permanent support of the clergy.

Many Christians (both Catholic and Protestant) support their churches and pastors with monetary contributions of one sort or another. Frequently these monetary contributions are called tithes whether or not they actually represent ten-percent of anything. Some claim that as tithing was an ingrained Jewish custom by the time of Jesus, no specific command to tithe per se is found in the New Testament. However, this view overlooks the fact that [size=13pt]Israel's tithes were of an agricultural nature, not financial"[/size]

"The Levites, also known as the tribe of Levi, were descendants of Levi. They were assistants to the Israelite priests (who were the children of Aaron and, therefore,a subset of the Tribe of Levi) and did not own or inherit a territorial patrimony Numbers 18:21-28. Their function in society was that of temple functionaries, teachers and trusted civil servants who supervised the weights and scales and witnessed agreements. The goods donated from the other Israeli tribes were their source of sustenance. They received from "all Israel" a tithe of food or livestock for support, and in turn would set aside a tenth portion of that tithe for the Aaronic priests in Jerusalem"
END QUOTES

The most instructive fact of this all, is that, tithes were never paid in Churches till the late 1800s. It was when "institutionalised" "big business" Christianity started that the lie was introduced basically as a means of enriching Churches.

@Olaadegbu:

I have paid tithes before but I was misinformed. Today I give "gifts" out of love NOT because I am afraid of being "in the wrong" which is what tithe preaching is about. You ignored everything garyarnold brought to this table and its obvious you're happy this server crash happened because it allows you continue to sell this lie. However, remember that the issue concerns God. Uzziah DIED because he thought it was right to help God forgetting God elevates His Word above even His name. You have seen more than enough truth on this and pride is not a godly attribute. I wonder how someone who cannot accept correction can claim to be Christian. Enjoy your day

From the same wikipedia article on TITHES (reader, please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithes)

One aspect of Old Testament tithing that advocates neglect is the fact that tithing did not apply to a workman's earnings, but applied to the agricultural crops grown on a farmer's land - this means that tithing was done from the profit a land-owner received from his assets. There are no recorded instances in the Bible of a workman "tithing" from wages that he received for his labor. Since the vast majority of modern workers make a living by selling their labor to an employer rather than by earning profits off of a material asset like a farm, it's debatable whether the practice of "tithing" would apply to a modern worker even if tithing is still part of the New Covenant.

Due to the fact that[b] the New Testament explicitly directs Christians to give voluntarily as each person has determined in their hearts (2 Corinthians 9:7)[/b] and condemns those who make a show of their donations to organized religion (Mark 12:41-44, Matt. 6:3), the arguments for tithing as a Biblical practice seem to violate the basic principles of Biblical interpretation used by most conservative Protestants. These Christians usually stress the plain meaning of the text, and regard the New Testament above the Old Testament as the authoritative word of God. One reason why the practice is so vigorously promoted by conservative Protestant leaders, aside from the financial benefits of tithing for their institutions, may be that people who tithe or make other large sacrifices for the Church gain a positive reputation for their devotion. Christians may also feel that they've earned God's favor through their sacrifice.[2] Opponents of tithing note that the Bible explicitly condemns making public sacrifices as a means of enhancing one's reputation (Matt. 6:3), so the public testimonies of tithing advocates actually run the risk of being sin.
.

@nuclearboy
Sorry to 'disturb' your day, but methinks olaadegbu simply preferred to honour God's Word above wikipedia's or garyarnold. I believe the gary guy is still alive and of age to re-present his points. It's desperate to accuse someone of benefitting from the 'crash'.
Also,n.b: who told you that Abraham split money? So you think money is what he got from the battle, this isn't the gulf war friend. Genesis 14v20 says Abraham gave him tithes of all. Which one are you about with TENTH not tithe, are you reading the wikiVersion of that passage? Who told you that Abraham gave 9/10 to the king of Sodom? I hope it's not HS(i wonder who that is) that is privately telling you this things?

^^^ Hello:

What is wrong with faulting my claim that Isrealis who got (and owned) the law still today follow the age-old right manner in paying their tithes till today as the Torah instructed them? What is wrong with faulting Wikipedia if it is wrong? Please therefore, show us the facts that prove me wrong and you right!

Dude, you have said nothing except to lyingly paint the issue to seem as though I am fighting against God's Word. Why not show me God's Word that contradicts me or says Abraham paid a tenth of anything except the spoils of war to Melchizedek? Is that too difficult to do since you have a Bible and the truth behind you? So why leave that and come proclaiming self-righteously that you are honoring God above Wikipedia?

wikipedia ko, minicoscos ni

nuclearboy:, Jacob made a CONDITIONAL promise to pay a 10th and we did not see any proof of him paying up, everything else you posted is on point.

It is hard to debate folks who have to "CHECK" with some authority other than our Lord Jesus Christ before they come back with answers

Olaadegbu might not be old enough to have read "Animal Farm" in high school but he does remind me of the 'Old Major' character while Tonye-Tithe reminds me of 'Squealer' and pastor Joagbaje reminds me of 'Napoleon'

I am curious to see where the Bible stated that a Christian can't drink alcoholic drinks, having a drink or two now equals being drunk? When folks want to CONTROL you, they make you follow certain "laws" no matter how "unlawful", Are Christians allowed to eat Italian or French since they mostly cook with white or red whine?

nuclearboy
Don't say that. It's better to say wikipedia ko, garyarnold ni. That's the correct lexis.
Now there's nothing wrong with faulting your claims or faulting wikipedia, i just did that. What is wrong is that you refuse to meekly take to simple corrections(an offence you accuse others of). For e.g You just said "Abraham split the money(spoils of war) two ways. He gave a TENTH (that word, NOT tithe was used)". You said that, didn't you and I corrected that, even quoted a verse for it. Instead of taking correction, you're trying to TWIST YOUR OWN WORDS(That's magical). Is money=spoils of war? Did Abraham really give 9/10 to the king of sodom?

I'm wondering why anyone who give tithe must either be seen as a pastor collecting tithes helplessly for a living or a self-righteous person. I'm wondering why majority of 'anti-tithers' do not belong to any church and yet still find it excruciating that church members give tithe.anyways
It'll do some good if we revisited this Abraham tithing narration. Remember, Bible students against tithing say tithing is of the law but we say Abraham gave tithes before the law. The second major arguement against tithes is that tithing must be agricultural produce, but we say Abraham gave tithes above agricultural produce. Now we're hearing Abraham gave tenth, not tithe and it's not Abraham's personal property. So whose property was it?

Image123:

I'm wondering why anyone who give tithe must either be seen as a pastor collecting tithes helplessly for a living or a self-righteous person. I'm wondering why majority of 'anti-tithers' do not belong to any church and yet still find it excruciating that church members give tithe.anyways
It'll do some good if we revisited this Abraham tithing narration. Remember, Bible students against tithing say tithing is of the law but we say Abraham gave tithes before the law. The second major arguement against tithes is that tithing must be agricultural produce, but we say Abraham gave tithes above agricultural produce. Now we're hearing Abraham gave tenth, not tithe and it's not Abraham's personal property. So whose property was it?

How did you come to that highlighted conclusion? Does the "Church" make the Christian or the Christian makes the Church? "Image is everything"

Image123:

I'm wondering why anyone who give tithe must either be seen as a pastor collecting tithes helplessly for a living or a self-righteous person. I'm wondering why majority of 'anti-tithers' do not belong to any church and yet still find it excruciating that church members give tithe.anyways
It'll do some good if we revisited this Abraham tithing narration. Remember, Bible students against tithing say tithing is of the law but we say Abraham gave tithes before the law. The second major arguement against tithes is that tithing must be agricultural produce, but we say Abraham gave tithes above agricultural produce. Now we're hearing Abraham gave tenth, not tithe and it's not Abraham's personal property. So whose property was it?

How did you arrive at that conclusion??

Image123:

nuclearboy
Don't say that. It's better to say wikipedia ko, garyarnold ni. That's the correct lexis.
Now there's nothing wrong with faulting your claims or faulting wikipedia, i just did that. What is wrong is that you refuse to meekly take to simple corrections(an offence you accuse others of). For e.g You just said "Abraham split the money(spoils of war) two ways. He gave a TENTH (that word, NOT tithe was used)". You said that, didn't you and I corrected that, even quoted a verse for it. Instead of taking correction, you're trying to TWIST YOUR OWN WORDS(That's magical). Is money=spoils of war? Did Abraham really give 9/10 to the king of sodom?

Gen 14:16 - "He recovered ALL the goods and brought back his relative Lot and his possessions, together with the women and the other people" [17] "After Abram returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him, the king of sodom came out to meet him in the valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley)" [18] "Then Melchizedek King of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, " [19] "and he blessed Abram saying, 'Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth," [20] "And blessed be God Most High, who delivered your enemies into your hand" Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything" [21] The king of Sodom said to Abram 'Give me the people and keep the goods for yourself'" [22] But Abram said 'I have raised my hand to the Lord, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth and have taken an oath" [23] "[size=13pt]that I will accept nothing belonging to you[/size], not even a sandal, so that you will never be able to say "I made Abram rich" [24] I will accept nothing but what my men have eaten and the share that belongs to the men who went with me - to Aner, Eschol and Mamre. Let them have their share"


@Image123:


The Bible says the four kings seized ALL the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah. BUT they made the mistake of carrying away Abram's nephew Lot and his possessions too. When Abram (who was living near Mamre etc) heard, he involved himself. Verse 16 above tells us that he recovered ALL those "goods" and peoples and brought them back. After Melchizedek's prayer, Abram gave him "A TENTH" of everything. What was everything, Image123? Did he go back to the great trees of Mamre where he was living and bring all his possessions? Did he bring all he owned in life when coming to attempt the rescue?

What he gave to Melchizedek was a tenth of the "ALL" recovered goods. You want to disagree and be legalistic? Ok! But the Bible preempts you by informing us that Abram furthermore refused to take ANYTHING out of ALL they recovered and gave them back to Sodom's king and SAID "I will accept nothing BELONGING TO YOU" so that what? - "YOU WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO SAY YOU MADE ABRAM RICH".

Tell me Bro, why did Abram say the goods belonged to the King of Sodom? Why did he say he wanted nothing that was theirs? Why did he refuse to take the goods and give back the people? Will the King of Sodom MAKE HIM RICH WITH ABRAM'S OWN PROPERTY?

Its all there above. You can see it yourself - no change of topic or distractions or trying to emotionalise issues. And DEFINITELY no idiotic SANCTIMONIOUS pretensions of self-righteousness - just what the Bible says.

He WENT BECAUSE of Lot. He recovered all that was taken away. They wanted him to take the goods away. He said they were not his property but belonged to Sodom. He refused to allow any man say he made him rich.

So what are you on about? Why do you just jump to judge? Whether I go to church or not is not at stake here - who was more religious SAUL (before conversion) or PAUL (the Apostle). Do you know what a signboard is? Its a Pharisee - they make ALL the motions but its a lie and doesn't get inside.

That is my answer to your supposed "refutation" - What the Bible says! Fight with it since it is IT that says Abram gave a tenth and then gave the rest i.e. 9/10, back to the king of sodom since it wasn't his own. BTW, it was a custom then to give that tenth to the king. A PAGAN Custom, mind you!

To effectively refute, you will have to show us that Abraham paid tithe aside of what he "returned to Sodom's King" over that war. It would be preferable to see you show scriptural examples of that happening as many times as possible.

I have no fight with Olaadegbu except that they make "ordinances of men LAWS OF GOD" and then play "the righteous" with these lies. Maybe they never read the Word but just listened to someone they trusted. So they were let down by MOG they trusted BUT their innocence will not and CAN NEVER justify a lie, This rubbishing of God's Word by those who ought uphold it is making Christianity a ridicule. Anyone who has NOT studied issues himself should not teach. The sermons you heard and depended on might turn out to be a lie perpetuated by people with an agenda and like Olaadegbu now, you might just find your foot in your mouth because you trusted in a man rather than looking only at God. No pastor is above correction and we cannot depend on their interpretation like it seems he did. Those Jesus said He would turn away to everlasting damnation will come from amongst "men of God" not from Babalawos. And some would argue that they did great things - that means they FELT they were right yet they were wrong. Are you leaving your fate in eternity to another man's ideas?

Anyway, don't let me go too far. Just REFUTE the above

OLAADEGBU:

There were tithing before the law and the One who received it was greater than Abraham  

Abrahams rendering of a tenth of war takings to Melchizedek is no justification for a compulsory rendering of 10% of our income to the pastor. How this transaction translates to a compulsory 10% of our income is what you failed to prove. Was Abrahams tenth based on an instruction from God?

OLAADEGBU:

even the Levites paid tithes in Abraham.

Please stop saying this. So if my great grandfather paid tithe, then Zikkyy is a tither abi?

OLAADEGBU:

The tithes Christians pay today are to this same High Priest who lives forever and was sworn in with an oath after the order of Melchisedec.

So rendering a tenth of your income to your pastor amounts to tithing to Christ abi? Did Christ give your pastor the authority to collect and spend tithe on his behalf? You keep saying Christ priesthood is after the order of Melchizedek, Remember that Melchizedek collected his tenth himself. Nobody collected on his behalf.

Image123:

but methinks olaadegbu simply preferred to honour God's Word above wikipedia's or garyarnold.

So, what this God's word that master olaadegbu prefer to honour?

Image123:

we say Abraham gave tithes before the law.

But please tell us how Abrahams tenth of war takings translate to a compulsory remittance of 10% of our monthly wages to the pastor? The argument will not be necessary if you can prove Abraham's transaction aligns with the modern practice.

@Zikky:

Your great grand-pa has paid for you, so no need to pay again abi?  

@ Image123:

Since "Abrahams blessings are yours", next time you go to war, make sure you give "Goodluck Jonathan" 9/10ths and the remaining TENTH to your High Priest (Jesus Christ)

In the meantime while you're not at war, please support your church and the needy and strangers and widows around you   That is [b]your Christian duty [/b]that, and to study and know God's Word as Is 34:16 says because "Gods people die due to ignorance" which God calls REJECTING TRUTH" Hosea 4: 6 & 7

nuclearboy:

BTW, it was a custom then to give that tenth to the king. A PAGAN Custom, mind you!

Tell them abeg. They dont know. People like tithing-T could have be paying tithe to 'shamash' the sun god without knowing it

@Olaadegbu:
Unfortunate that the server crashed, taking with it a number of posts. But here my five questions again. Can you please answer them.

1. TRUE OR FALSE. The Apostle Paul NEVER ONCE appealed to tithing even though he obviously often suffered financial difficulties. However, he wrote rather a lot about FREELY giving financial support where one is able.
2. TRUE OR FALSE. The early Church - prior to Constantine - DID NOT uphold tithing.
3. TRUE OR FALSE. Tithing was a widespread practise in the ancient world - not something peculiar to Israel.
4. In our day, strongly tithing congregations often become very wealthy congregations with much to spend on various projects and with the minister enjoying an affluent lifestyle, even while many within that congregation might live in a financially very precarious world. Is this not at odds with the examples within the Book of Acts which show Christians within a congregation SHARING their substance so that none should suffer lack? Why do we ignore this clear NEW TESTAMENT example, while being quick to seize an Old Testament example which finds no real New Testament support?
5. TRUE OR FALSE. 2 Corinthians 9:7 effectively bars tithing for the New Testament Church of God since it plainly states that Christians should not give (and the whole context is of financial giving) "under compulsion."

OLAADEGBU:

This is what the verse says: "Upon the first day of the week let everyone of you lay by him in store, as God has prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."[/i]

You can see here that there was gathering of money here to be sent to Jerusalem on Sundays, or how do you read?

master olaadegbu, how does this collection translate to tithe? Please note that the collection was meant to be done to the time Paul arrives. i.e. It was for a specified time period only. Also observe that the collection was not meant for a priest/pastor.

It'll do some good if we revisited this Abraham tithing narration. Remember, Bible students against tithing say tithing is of the law but we say Abraham gave tithes before the law

Abraham also instituted circumcision b4 Moses gave the law to the Israelites.Al yet Paul included it among the law .Also don't forget that cain,abel,noah and Abraham performed burnt offerings long before law was given to moses,why don't you continue offering burnt offerings today?

You can even offer ur naira notes as burnt offerings straight to God ,that way you will be sure ur money got to Jesus and was not embezzled by any stupid pastor

Interesting. I've been away that 'long' to even have noticed that there was a 'crash'. Who was trying to 'crash' our respected NL?!

Anyways, commander nuclearboy, your boy viaro has read a bit of your arguments (especially those embellished with quotes from Wikipedia) - I think for the most part, you have presented a bias that is polarised towards anti-tithing. To this end, when I can find the time, I really would like to examine your arguments and show you, sir, where you have it all confused.

For now, I tend to agree with Image123's reflection on yours:

Image123:

@nuclearboy
Sorry to 'disturb' your day, but methinks olaadegbu simply preferred to honour God's Word above wikipedia's or garyarnold. I believe the gary guy is still alive and of age to re-present his points. It's desperate to accuse someone of benefitting from the 'crash'.
Also,n.b: who told you that Abraham split money? So you think money is what he got from the battle, this isn't the gulf war friend. Genesis 14v20 says Abraham gave him tithes of all. Which one are you about with TENTH not tithe, are you reading the wikiVersion of that passage? Who told you that Abraham gave 9/10 to the king of Sodom? I hope it's not HS(i wonder who that is) that is privately telling you this things?

nuclearboy:

Abraham split the money (spoils of War) two ways - He gave a TENTH (that word, NOT tithes, was used) to Melchizedek and 9/10 back to the King of Sodom. You're preaching the "tenth" as tithe. Are you not supposed to preach the 9/10 too? Remember, these were "spoils of war", not his natural possessions. Why didn't he give his "TITHE" i.e. increase on his income or salary as you preach today? Please PLEASE show us one example of Abraham paying "tithe" or even paying "a tenth" from his personal property.

I really don't know where to start from; but the arguments around Abraham which you summised do not have a leg to stand on. To this end, I've opened a thread just for you and your boy viaro to rub minds together on that. Anyone is free to comment in that thread, but I would be focusing only on whatever you say there.

The new thread can be accessed here. Looking forward to yours, I salute, sir.

I should add something here in the near future, nuclearboy