^^Thanks, InesQor.

I may not have a definite study 'structure' that may suit every experience, and I very much like your approach on 'A Study of Jesus' (rather than 'THE' study of Jesus). If the principle focus of the thread is to help those newly coming to faith in Christ, perhaps we might seek an approach or structure that takes their own perspective into consideration.

When I newly came to saving faith in Christ, the basic question for me about Jesus was: WHO He has revealed Himself to be, especially in the area of my daily walk and fellowship with other believers. This certainly may not be the same basic question or experience of others who have newly believed; but for me, I felt that my relationship with Him was (and to a large extent, is) going to be affected by how that question is answered in my life.

So, if I were to follow your pen in 'a study' of Jesus Christ (especially as proposed in your Day 1 on Isaiah 53), the basic question would be about Christ as our Redemption and Redeemer. This is just a suggestion, especially following the next line in yours on the 'Fall of Man' (Genesis 3). However, more to that theme is how that affects my daily experience as a Christian on the one hand, and what that experience would mean in my fellowship with other believers.

^^ That is only a suggestion. But do we need to wait to have anything close to "the" perfect study structure? No. Rather, we may begin the digest as proposed - and in doing so, bearing in mind that the believer perhaps is looking for effective outcomes: how the study impacts on our lives and fellowships with one another.

@Viaro: Thanks bro. I just sent you an email, please.

^^ I'll check - that means I owe you a couple back replies. Sad. . . but I'll get there.

I have a suggestion. I do not delude myself that you self appointed ''christian Teachers'' would take it into consideration. Since you know-it-alls seem to think u've got it all

The first thing to be taught a believer is how to have a PERSONAL relationship with your god. This PERsOnal relationship is important as faith can only take you so far.

Interestingly and this is not in a bid to "please" Tudor, I think what he has said here would likely be of paramount importance to a new believer FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF A MATURED BELIEVER WHO FEARS (CONSIDERING THE PRE-PONDERANCE OF FALSE TEACHINGS OUT THERE).

What I mean is that whist the new believer may not realise it, He it is that is at greatest risk since a bad foundation will likely not be easy to correct. Heliping him strengthen his relationship past where its easy to derail him may just be really helpful.

[size=4pt]This Tudor chap always suprises me - I wonder if he won't end up a pastor. Just that if you annoy him,  na die. Imagine a machine-gun mounted on a pulpit[/size]

But what matters is that this thread continues, I guess, with any and likely all of the points raised above

Well said, nuclearboy, and Tudor. Have you considered also, that in order to develop a personal relationship with this God, one needs to communicate with Him in a form of primary introduction? It's like getting into a relationship with a loved one, it must begin with a primary introduction before one may start understanding the person and developing a personal relationship.

I believe this initial introduction can be afforded by a study of the scriptures without any indoctrination. If the scriptures are explained in context, there will be a risk of polluting the message and tainting it with one's own understanding. But truly hungry hearts will be fed by the Holy Spirit himself as they thirst and pant after God.

Tudór:

I have a suggestion. I do not delude myself that you self appointed ''christian Teachers'' would take it into consideration. Since you know-it-alls seem to think u've got it all

Lol, it shouldn't be like this. I don't think anyone's arguing fastidiuously about 'knowing it all'. Infact, it seems that since you have a few points to make here and there, would it not be helpful that you share whatever it is you want to share? You may not be pleased about the foregoing posts, and it seems like you know better - so perhaps the 'new convert' might be waiting to see something of substance from yours.

Tudór:

The first thing to be taught a believer is how to have a PERSONAL relationship with your god. This PERsOnal relationship is important as faith can only take you so far.

Perhaps you may want to try doing that - since you know that is "THE first thing" to be taught a 'BELIEVER'.

I tend to think, however, that a believer is one who already has a personal relationship with God. I don't see how one is to be called a "believer" in the proper sense if he/she does not have any relationship whatsoever with God. Yet, perhaps the question therefore here is this: what comes next after having had this relationship as a 'BELIEVER'?

^^ I think what Tudor is saying is that a "new" convert (having established a relationship) is flailing about helplessly not knowing what to do. My simple answer would be prayer and prayer and prayer but most of us don't even know how to pray. Biblical references for such "newbies" that will help create an understanding of prayer and SELF study is likely what Tudor wants provided.

BTW, Viaro, are you trying to force my prophecy of Prophet Pastor (Dr) Bishop (that most in support of his mentor Oyedepo) Tudor to come to pass sharpish? Cos you seem to be trying to force him to start teaching today?

Woli Tudor, oya, over to you

nuclearboy:

^^ I think what Tudor is saying is that a "new" convert (having established a relationship) is flailing about helplessly not knowing what to do. My simple answer would be prayer and prayer and prayer but most of us don't even know how to pray. Biblical references for such "newbies" that will help create an understanding of prayer and SELF study is likely what Tudor wants provided.

Okay, I misunderstood and stand corrected. Perhaps it could be a case of levels of developments in that single relationship, since it appears to me that a believer (as a "believer" is one that has just come into a relationship at the initial stage with God. He/she needs to develop this relationship - which was what I tried explaining earlier:

viaro:

When I newly came to saving faith in Christ, the basic question for me about Jesus was: WHO He has revealed Himself to be, especially in the area of my daily walk and fellowship with other believers. This certainly may not be the same basic question or experience of others who have newly believed; but for me, I felt that my relationship with Him was (and to a large extent, is) going to be affected by how that question is answered in my life.
________

. . .the believer perhaps is looking for effective outcomes: how the study impacts on our lives and fellowships with one another.

nuclearboy:
BTW, Viaro, are you trying to force my prophecy of Prophet Pastor (Dr) Bishop (that most in support of his mentor Oyedepo) Tudor to come to pass sharpish? Cos you seem to be trying to force him to start teaching today?

Hahahaha!! Why is it that I cannot hide anything from you these days?
Do you have a special radar for scanning what I think these days?
Please guarantee me - I shall pay any amount of tithe you want!!

Tudór:

I have a suggestion. I do not delude myself that you self appointed ''christian Teachers'' would take it into consideration. Since you know-it-alls seem to think u've got it all

The first thing to be taught a believer is how to have a PERSONAL relationship with your god. This PERsOnal relationship is important as faith can only take you so far.

Good advice from you,i hope God will visit u personally.lol

toba:

Good advice from you,i hope God will visit u personally.lol

Too late for that I think.

I speak from personal experience and how I wanted to know god personally(didnt see shiit).

A new convert doesnt need you to start exegising, compiling, thiesis, debate, fighting etc. He wants the basic of how does he approach god.

My dad is muslim (not a serious one I might add) and my mom a christian. Despite being taught both faiths I chose christianity coz it offers a promise of ''personal relationship'' with god. We're all human beings and such an idea of a sort of relationship with your maker will attract anyone. As a child its even harder to dismiss.

Then what did I see? I get bamboozled with crap left right and center everyone claiming to know. I ask questions I hear this from Mr A, hear another from Mr B, mr C tells me to shut the fck up and just obey, i read the bible and see D. I'm like what the hell is this?

Bible says ask the Holy spirit, pray to god. I ask and dont see nada. I'm able to say, I never had any problems growing up. We were too comfortable, i had no health issues, i did good in school, my parents were wonderful. My prayer points consisted of god let me get that bmx bike this christmas and so on. My only serious and heartfelt prayer then was how do I know god coz I wanted from the source and not the undiluted BS everyone is putting my way.

Well all this happend till I was 11 years old and that was when I started using my brains instead of waiting for some imaginary white man to come save me. I broadened my horizons, observed the world around me and discovered things. All this coincided with when I started getting taught science in high school.

You'd be amazed at what u'd see if u read the bible with ur rational mind. I guess thats why they tell u not to use ur head when it comes to faith to keep u in perpetual bondage.

Either way thats why till today no one can come tell be crap about how I didnt believe, or didnt pray or was this or that. I know how sincere I was then. I put it all down as the longings of a child. Now I'm an adult and have forsaken childish hankerings. And i urge u all to do too.

My point is, that promised relationship is the basis and not bombarding people with your opinions. You are a NEW believer because you want that relationship and not because you have it already as viaro wrongly stated. If he crams the whole bible and yet has no connection with your god then its purely baseless and of no use.

PS: this stands true for those genuine new converts who want to know and love god and not those like we have in majority today who want god to solve all their life problems. Those ones can do without personal relationship, they prefer it business like. we see every month, I pay my taxtithe, you bless me.end of deal.

nuclearboy:

Interestingly and this is not in a bid to "please" Tudor, I think what he has said here would likely be of paramount importance to a new believer FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF A MATURED BELIEVER WHO FEARS (CONSIDERING THE PRE-PONDERANCE OF FALSE TEACHINGS OUT THERE).

What I mean is that whist the new believer may not realise it, He it is that is at greatest risk since a bad foundation will likely not be easy to correct. Heliping him strengthen his relationship past where its easy to derail him may just be really helpful.

[size=4pt]This Tudor chap always suprises me - I wonder if he won't end up a pastor. Just that if you annoy him,  na die. Imagine a machine-gun mounted on a pulpit[/size]

But what matters is that this thread continues, I guess, with any and likely all of the points raised above

If you ever see me preaching, just know i've decided to reap from the naira rain in churches today.

Months back you said something to me which make it annoy me more when I see people spreading their personal opinions as truth.

When I asked why god doesnt just kill all them false teachers like adeboye to protect genuine believers, you said god has given them all they needed in the bible and will judge them accordingly if they dont decode the truth as its their fault not gods. I then opined not every one was smart enough to know which is which. You still held on to ur view.

Why life is already so difficult for a chap just trying to know his god then some more quacks are coming on NL to confuse them the more?

If god is going to judge people whether they smart or not people should then be left alone to study the word with the holy spirit whoz supposed to be teacher of truth. Going to hell on your own sounds bad but going to hell because of the rubbish you heard from someone else and inadvertently took is as truth sounds much worse.

Tudór:


PS: this stands true for those genuine new converts who want to know and love god and not those like we have in majority today who want god to solve all their life problems. Those ones can do without personal relationship, they prefer it business like. we see every month, I pay my taxtithe, you bless me. end of deal.

This guy won't kill me today with laughter.  

And this should have come under the heretic thread as part of the effects on society and the disappointments caused by MOG "doctrines".

I think this is a true worry what with the bombardment from within and without the individual in his search for "God" especially when he's just getting on his feet. The self serving MOGs cause disaster with their amazing repertoire of "The Lord says" etc. But peace, Tudor, please! I believe you're not the first person to face such and you just might be suprised that now you think all hope of connection is lost is when God will approach you.

The primary basis of approaching God is simply prayer - communicating with someone usually means being with that person and I think God's case is not different. The closer/more extensive your visits to Him, the better! Such mind-rubbing (being in His presence) will usually pass some ideas of God to the individual - unfortunately, (in my experience) such ideas are usually NOT what our MOGs wish we have as these ideas tend to make individuals who are not easily swayed by excitement on the pulpit (you can't leave God's presence then be excited by man's presence). The bombardment (opposition to such) of society against the honest seeker of God usually has an impatient person becoming pressured, very irritable and wondering why God is allowing so much "persecution" just cos they want His truth. Most times, we walk away from God because the pressure gets to us.

I'm may be wrong but I suspect this happened to you, Tudor. It did to me too as reading you is akin to remembering how it was for me then. I got so mad I attempted cursing God, went into the Occult and even picked up habits I detested just so both God and His "dudes" would stay far from me. Anytime I saw my pastor approaching my place, I lit a cigarette and of course, they had ammunition to say I had derailed only BECAUSE I DIDN'T LISTEN TO THEM.  It took over a decade before a suprise occurence brought me back and since then, I have become an extremely individualistic believer. My posts here will show I can be abrasive and my wrath is mainly felt by these fake self serving criminals who use the name of God to pervert justice.

I think God uses such to strengthen us and is building an army that has experience of the battle from within, not just "gist".

Just as I posted the above, I saw your newer response

Truth is I believe in personal culpability, still, it was in the context we discussed that I said what i did. If you look at the "Heretic teachings and their effect etc" thread, you will see me sing a new song. People can be deceived BUT Christianity says its a personal responsibility that we learn truth. I will not blame a man who is duped totally but neither will I totally absolve him of guilt. Its like what you wrote above, bro - people want QUOTE "business like. we see every month, I pay my taxtithe, you bless me.end of deal" UNQUOTE. That opens them up to the scam. So whist they are not responsible for the scam, their greed brought it on. To illustrate Tudor, why don't you pay tithe considering the BS you too (like them) have heard?

Tudór:

Then what did I see? I get bamboozled with crap left right and center everyone claiming to know. I ask questions I hear this from Mr A, hear another from Mr B, mr C tells me to shut the fck up and just obey, i read the bible and see D. I'm like what the hell is this?

Bible says ask the Holy spirit, pray to god. I ask and dont see nada. I'm able to say, I never had any problems growing up. We were too comfortable, i had no health issues, i did good in school, my parents were wonderful. My prayer points consisted of god let me get that bmx bike this christmas and so on. My only serious and heartfelt prayer then was how do I know god coz I wanted from the source and not the undiluted BS everyone is putting my way.

But how does this help the 'new convert'? Everyone has his/her personal experiences in relating with God - and they are diverse. Mr A, B, C, D and Z^N telling you this and that does not deliver that personal relationship to you; and one would have waited to see how seriously you pursued God from 'the source' instead of sounding bitter hitherto.

There are some who turned their backs on God for various other reasons. What strikes me is what they have had to say about "the source". It so happens that so many times, the bitterness points back to what others told them rather than a real experience with God Himself.

I'm not laying blame on anyone, and I could also say that my own situation would very easily had led me down the same bitter road. What could one say about a life saddled with muslims, Christians, deists, and Hindus? Yet, I guess my fortune is that my extended family was never at 'war' among themselves despite the differences in worldviews. For me, it was a long, hard road up until I came to understand that my relationship with God does not ride on anyone's back - it's got to be "personal" and not 'borrowed' or 'secondhand'.

Tudór:
My point is, that promised relationship is the basis and not bombarding people with your opinions.

Then by all means keep yours! What amazes me is the way you come off sounding as know-it-all and yet accusing others of what you are guilty of yourself! After your own dismissives, you then "urge" others to go down your own lane - a lane which leads AWAY from God! I dare say that is not sensible in the least, and that was why we waited to see what you had to offer.

Tudór:

You are a NEW believer because you want that relationship and not because you have it already as viaro wrongly stated. If he crams the whole bible and yet has no connection with your god then its purely baseless and of no use.

This is where I have to state in no uncertain terms that I seriously disagree with you. I'm not all about cramming the whole Bible - a careful read through my posts here hitherto shows where I stand. I could oblige a reposting of relevant sections to show that I was more about experience in daily walk among BELIEVERS. A believer is a person who already has a relationship with God rather than groping ignorantly seeking that relationship.

I do not know of any "believer" who is one without a relationship at any level with God! It is how one grows in that relationship that comes after the initial contact of becoming a BELIEVER. This is why the unbeliever does not acknowledge any relationship with God at any level. This is not about cramming anything - it is about experience and growing in that experience.

viaro:

But how does this help the 'new convert'? Everyone has his/her personal experiences in relating with God - and they are diverse. Mr A, B, C, D and Z^N telling you this and that does not deliver that personal relationship to you; and one would have waited to see how seriously you pursued God from 'the source' instead of sounding bitter hitherto.

did you read that quoted section at all? Where did imply its supposed to help the new convert?

There are some who turned their backs on God for various other reasons. What strikes me is what they have had to say about "the source". It so happens that so many times, the bitterness points back to what others told them rather than a real experience with God Himself.

?

What am I saying?
Is that not why I ask that New believers be taught how to get that personal experiece rather than the rubbish exegesis and whatnot you people spew here.

I'm not laying blame on anyone, and I could also say that my own situation would very easily had led me down the same bitter road. What could one say about a life saddled with muslims, Christians, deists, and Hindus? Yet, I guess my fortune is that my extended family was never at 'war' among themselves despite the differences in worldviews. For me, it was a long, hard road up until[b] I came to understand that my relationship with God does not ride on anyone's back - it's got to be "personal" and not 'borrowed' or 'secondhand'[/b].

Did this dude read my post at all? So what have I been advocating since If not personal relationship

Then by all means keep yours! What amazes me is the way you come off sounding as know-it-all and yet accusing others of what you are guilty of yourself! After your own dismissives, you then "urge" others to go down your own lane - a lane which leads AWAY from God! I dare say that is not sensible in the least, and that was why we waited to see what you had to offer.

I laugh. . .my own way? I advocated that believers be taught to have a personal relationship with god which you have supported above then down below you label it ''my way'' and claim it leads away from god? Dude you must be drunk.

This is where I have to state in no uncertain terms that I seriously disagree with you. I'm not all about cramming the whole Bible - a careful read through my posts here hitherto shows where I stand. I could oblige a reposting of relevant sections to show that I was more about experience in daily walk among BELIEVERS.

who said you cram the bible or are you insecure? Damn, did my post touch a nerve?

A believer is a person who already has a relationship with God rather than groping ignorantly seeking that relationship.

way to go! Am i suprised? No!

You alone has the right to declare who a believer is and is not. . . .we bow to your authority

I do not know of any "believer" who is one without a relationship at any level with God! It is how one grows in that relationship that comes after the initial contact of becoming a BELIEVER. This is why the unbeliever does not acknowledge any relationship with God at any level. This is not about cramming anything - it is about experience and growing in that experience.

what is the meaning of this?

So one seeking that experience isnt a believer according to you??

Thanks. . .give us more of your exegesis pls o great teacher. Infact we need it to enter heaven.

I think i know this viaro dude's problem. . . . In a rush to ejaculate you dont read posts in entirety as a body with a composite message. Rather read a paragraph take it as a message on its own, reply to it, move to the next paragraph do same.

An entire post is supposed to relay a point with each paragraph as building blocks. Pls use common sense.

nuclearboy:

This guy won't kill me today with laughter.  

And this should have come under the heretic thread as part of the effects on society and the disappointments caused by MOG "doctrines".

I think this is a true worry what with the bombardment from within and without the individual in his search for "God" especially when he's just getting on his feet. The self serving MOGs cause disaster with their amazing repertoire of "The Lord says" etc. But peace, Tudor, please! I believe you're not the first person to face such and you just might be suprised that now you think all hope of connection is lost is when God will approach you.

The primary basis of approaching God is simply prayer - communicating with someone usually means being with that person and I think God's case is not different. The closer/more extensive your visits to Him, the better! Such mind-rubbing (being in His presence) will usually pass some ideas of God to the individual - unfortunately, (in my experience) such ideas are usually NOT what our MOGs wish we have as these ideas tend to make individuals who are not easily swayed by excitement on the pulpit (you can't leave God's presence then be excited by man's presence). The bombardment (opposition to such) of society against the honest seeker of God usually has an impatient person becoming pressured, very irritable and wondering why God is allowing so much "persecution" just cos they want His truth. Most times, we walk away from God because the pressure gets to us.

I'm may be wrong but I suspect this happened to you, Tudor. It did to me too as reading you is akin to remembering how it was for me then. I got so mad I attempted cursing God, went into the Occult and even picked up habits I detested just so both God and His "dudes" would stay far from me. Anytime I saw my pastor approaching my place, I lit a cigarette and of course, they had ammunition to say I had derailed only BECAUSE I DIDN'T LISTEN TO THEM.  It took over a decade before a suprise occurence brought me back and since then, I have become an extremely individualistic believer. My posts here will show I can be abrasive and my wrath is mainly felt by these fake self serving criminals who use the name of God to pervert justice.

I think God uses such to strengthen us and is building an army that has experience of the battle from within, not just "gist".

I merely stated my personal experience to highlight the importance of teaching new converts how to relate with god personally and allowing them learn and study from god himself rather outside sources like show-off opinion filled exegesis threads started by inesqor or viaro which claim to teach truth.

This way, they are assured of getting the truth as they re learning from the holy spirit himself.

Just as I posted the above, I saw your newer response

Truth is I believe in personal culpability, still, it was in the context we discussed that I said what i did. If you look at the "Heretic teachings and their effect etc" thread, you will see me sing a new song. People can be deceived BUT Christianity says its a personal responsibility that we learn truth. I will not blame a man who is duped totally but neither will I totally absolve him of guilt. Its like what you wrote above, bro - people want QUOTE "business like. we see every month, I pay my taxtithe, you bless me.end of deal" UNQUOTE. That opens them up to the scam. So whist they are not responsible for the scam, their greed brought it on. To illustrate Tudor, why don't you pay tithe considering the BS you too (like them) have heard?

this makes it much more pertinent that a new believer is taught how to communicate with god coz frankly there are too many noise makers out there spreading chaff.

If one has a personal relationship and learns from god himself there'll be no room for heretic doctrines to infiltrate you as you can go ask god himself.

Tudór:

did you read that quoted section at all? Where did imply its supposed to help the new convert?
?

Maybe I didn't get you; but I suppose when you posted initially you had a point to pass across. The way you came across with whatever you wanted to post makes one wonder what exactly your point was. On the one hand, I may have missed it - but nowhere did I claim to "know it all" for you to have gone about writing off people that way. If you had a more brilliant point to make, at the very least you were invited to do so without being unduely concerned about what others are trying to say. Bottomline: how does the new convert benefit from what you are suggesting and then going down the terminus?

Tudór:

What am I saying?
Is that not why I ask that New believers be taught how to get that personal experiece rather than the rubbish exegesis and whatnot you people spew here.

Please show me where I have posted any exegesis in this thread? Just one. I think that you need to calm down and not hastily jump to conclusions. Fine - we're not about "cramming" or "exegesis" - I for one didn't make any such claims anywhere. So where is all this coming from? If the new believer is to be taught, at what point would such "teaching" come across to you as close enough to what you suggested without it being again written off the way you have been doing?

Tudór:

Did this dude read my post at all? So what have I been advocating since If not personal relationship

I read your post - perhaps YOU need to calm down and read what others are saying. Did you miss the fact I pointed out this experience earlier before trying to bring in what I never said anywhere about "cramming" the whole Bible? If you took time to read what others are saying, I don't see why this point would even bother you in the first place.

Tudór:

I laugh. . .my own way? I advocated that believers be taught to have a personal relationship with god which you have supported above then down below you label it ''my way'' and claim it leads away from god? Dude you must be drunk.

I didn't get off the bar with you, and you're left alone counting your bottles. You have advocated your own way, yes you did. This is what you said:

Tudór:

Either way thats why till today no one can come tell be crap about how I didnt believe, or didnt pray or was this or that. I know how sincere I was then. I put it all down as the longings of a child. Now I'm an adult and have forsaken childish hankerings. And i urge u all to do too.

. .  and you make that recommendation because you have drawn the conclusion that those who read issues here are still hanging on to childish hankerings as you make out? Is that why you find it is "too late" for you to have a relationship or experience with God and suppose that others may find yours anything above what this thread attempts?

The funny thing about your posts is that you vroom in here and act dismissively - yet, even on invitation to share something better, the bottomline is that the 'new believer' is not brought into that relationship with God, no?

Tudór:
who said you cram the bible or are you insecure? Damn, did my post touch a nerve?
way to go! Am i suprised? No!

Please get off your high horse. You may need go back and re-read what YOU wrote and see. What did you mean by "If he crams the whole bible and yet has no connection with your god then its purely baseless and of no use"?? I did not advocate that at all, and would I be surprised that you are too soon forgetting where you're coming from?

Tudór:

You alone has the right to declare who a believer is and is not. . . .we bow to your authority
what is the meaning of this?

Please show me anywhere you find that a believer as a "believer" has no relationship with God. I didn't bind you to any authority anywhere, so no need to come off sounding insecure. The point is simple: if you find something to the contrary, then let's hear you. Is that too much to ask?

Tudór:

So one seeking that experience isnt a believer according to you??

haha - this is where I know you have no clue about what I said. A believer as a "believer" already has a relationship with God - what comes next is to develop that relationship. In other words: GROW in that relationship. If you can properly establish that a believer is one who does not have a relationship with God, by all means please do so and let's read you.

Tudór:

Thanks. . .give us more of your exegesis pls o great teacher. Infact we need it to enter heaven.

I'm waiting - everyone else according to you is spouting "rubbish", so please teach us all!

Tudór:

I think i know this viaro dude's problem. . . . In a rush to expel you dont read posts in entirety as a body with a composite message. Rather read a paragraph take it as a message on its own, reply to it, move to the next paragraph do same.

Thanks for the analysis. Please go look ina mirror and see you're describing what's your own problem. If you ever tried to read what I posted earlier, there would be no need for your misadventures.

Tudór:
An entire post is supposed to relay a point with each paragraph as building blocks. Pls use common sense.

I don't see you using any common sense - do you have any at all? What have we said previously before you started mentioning what does not appear in other people's posts? Thanks for the lesson - you prolly have to first go back to your basics before complaining.

Mehn. . .

[size=5pt]Nuclearboy, abeg come o. You're the only one that these two listen to.  Lest the thread be derailed. . .[/size]

---

@viaro:  Don't sweat it bro. It's all a misunderstanding.

InesQor:

@viaro: Don't sweat it bro. It's all a misunderstanding.

I apologise, didn't mean to throw it off at a tangent.

I don't understand all this sort of 'aversion' for the teaching of God's Word or way. God gave us teachers for the perfecting of believers. What's with the solitary, individual search when all things are ready?
Agreed that there're false teachers out in the world, but I'll not subscribe to a child being left to himself. Foolishness lies in the heart of children and they sure need guidance to come good.

^^^ those false teachers includes the likes of image123, if people learn to study and understand scritures on their own peeps like image123 would soon be out of business.

^^^ Thanks Viaro. I hope Bishop Oyedepo Tudor ( )  too will sheathe his sword. Truth be said, Tudor has really shocked me these last few days with the depth and sincerity of his posts. Sincere concern for newbies in Christianity is quite rare and I could think of supposed MOGs even here on NL who should take example from Tudor.

Please, my Lord Bishop!

@Image123:

A simple question - Who is a better teacher? You (with your limited knowledge) or God Himself? Note that most teachers have proved themselves to be false and only self- serving. One last thing - why are you guys bothered about another's child. The New convert belongs to God; why not allow the Father expression to bring up His child as He wishes. The Holy Spirit is the teacher who brings into ALL truth. Wetin be una own?

Image123:

I don't understand all this sort of 'aversion' for the teaching of God's Word or way. God gave us teachers for the perfecting of believers. What's with the solitary, individual search when all things are ready?
Agreed that there're false teachers out in the world, but I'll not subscribe to a child being left to himself. Foolishness lies in the heart of children and they sure need guidance to come good.

FTR, I do not belittle the purpose of a teacher of God's Word. However, I understand that a human "Teacher" in this respect is designed to help create an enabling environment by living by example, and does not impart knowledge. He does not spoonfeed the student or tell him what to think! He is like an ideal lecturer in a professional seminar (open to a challenge of his information), and not like a kindergarten teacher who says everything you need to take home with you.

Like, he would tell you the stream exists, but he will not tell you where it is or how it tastes. He will not fetch from it for you and give you to quench your thirst. If you are thirsty, you should simply go and look for the stream and get your own fill! This is because when you approach God for yourself, by His design, He may have something else in store for you.

You cannot fill up a cup that is already full.

True, we can't leave a child by himself; but the primary purpose of a teacher, like a parent, is to live by example. All other things follow through.

@viaro: God bless you, bro. The Lord is your exceeding reward. . .

I am not here to ridicule any body, I just want to understand something about how your belief system functions. What exactly is this personal relationship with God thingy? I just don't get it, all Christians profess some kind of personal relationship with their God, yet all I see around me is people self projecting themselves as God and dishing out their PERSONAL opinions every where. Then comes the holy spirit and the alleged role its suppose to play in strengthening this personal relationship with God by helping people communicate or explain things better to the people. Why then is there endless confusion even amongst sincere and genuine believers with regards to interpretation and basic doctrines and principles? As tudor said earlier if one has a personal relationship and learns from God himself there'll be no room for heretic doctrines to infiltrate you as you can go ask God himself. The fact that people keep interpreting and explaining things differently even when they claim to be in a personal relationship with their God is what I just can not understand. . . . .Even on this thread we can see image and kunle disagree with each other, and these are guys I consider to be sincere believers, when will the holy spirit explain to them and help them end their differences once and for all?

@mazaje: Welcome. My simple response to your post is that you have actually answered your own question rather unknowingly! Yes, Christians have a personal relationship with God, BUT that's why one size will never fit all; it's a personal relationship! There will always be differences in modes of understanding and manners of revelation until we attain the WHOLE measure of the fullness of Christ (at the end of all things). Our growth never stops until then.

Eph 4:11-13 (NIV)
It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

That's why each person will answer for themselves when judgment comes (When I say judgment, I am not talking about the "end of time". Refer to that which accrues to anyone as a consequence of their decision e.g. crossing a very busy interstate road when you are blindfolded, the judgment will be that you will probably be knocked down by a heavy vehicle. There is judgment every single second). With God, there is no excuse that you were misled by a false teacher or prophet when the real truth in the Word was an available alternative; but for the false teacher or prophet, they will be judged for misleading others.

When I didn't know better, I used to force my understanding down other people's throats as well. . . but now I make pointers to the scriptures. And if anyone asks me what I believe I go ahead and answer them. Cheers, bro.

^^^
Nice, I might not agree with your explanation, but it makes sense. . . .Cheers. . . .

Let's hope this is not an added detraction from the purpose of this thread, and I'd like to consolidate InesQor's recent post.

I tried initially to point out a few things, viz:

1. A believer already has a relationship with God.

2. What comes next is developing that relationship - that is, learning to grow in that relationship with God (please see 1 Pet. 2:2). This may come through a study of God's Word and prayer (of course, there are other things involved as well, such as learning to fellowship with other believers and serving in whatever capacity a believer is able according to what gift(s) he/she has received).

3. Whether the points above in 2. (understanding Scripture, prayer, fellowship, service) are done through "a study", what is far more important is that the believer seeks a practical outcome of such a study (ie., there is going to be a point where studying/learning translates into experience).

This ^^ is a suggestion, but that seems to be what we find in Scripture. For example, in Acts 8 we find that it was the same Isaiah 53 that the eunuch was reading when Philip the evangelist was directed by the Holy Spirit to 'guide' preach the Gospel to him. It was not enough to have 'studied' that passage, but the outcome of that 'study' was that the eunuch was led to a saving faith in Christ. This is an example of how a study translates into experience - and I thought that InesQor's mention of Isaiah 53 would well describe a suitable approach.

4. In addition, whether the believer is 'left alone' to seek God directly or there is a need for teaching and fellowship - whatever is the case there's bound to be heresies. Freelancing, individualism, isolationism, DIYs, etc. also promote the rise and establishment of heresies as much as group efforts.

In any endeavour or experience in life, it is a fact that people will indeed have differences and variations within the same worldview or ideology. That this happens among believers in the Christian worldview should not be alarming, although it is not what is encouraged. There are reasons why we find such things among Christians:

(a) where the seed of God's Word is sown, one is bound to find another kind of sowing - Matthew 13 >> [list]²⁴Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: ²⁵But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.[/list]
So, what happens? "³⁰Let both grow together until the harvest". No matter the recommendations of a believer seeking God directly in a DIY style or in group effort, we should not forget that unbelievers will bring in heresies (Acts 20:28-32).

(b) another reason why we find there's bound to be heresies inspite of our best intentions is because there are people who make claims of having been sent by the Holy Spirit and yet not adhering to His leading. Some of these folks who make such claims would have power to perform miracles that would even bewilder believers (Matthew 24:24). This is where discernment is necessary, and the believer who seeks a Godly walk understands why he/she should be careful about what is being said or done, even if at one's best intentions.

(c) the natural exuberance in us as humans has the tendency of intruding into spiritual matters - this is where the 'flesh' tries to domineer so that it appears as if the carnal man is acting spiritual. Such an atmosphere will produce schisms (1 Cor. 11:18) - and why? Here is the reason: "for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized" (v. 19). Everyone may claim to be genuine and have best intentions and other people's best interests at heart; yet, we find that best intentions do not necessarily produce good results. When people force themselves into ministry at this point, schisms will appear, with many people saying very different things.

Following (c) above^^, James 3:1 says: "Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness." Not everyone claiming to be a teacher is actually one; and same applies in the case of some proclaiming themselves as apostles, Reverends, pastors, bishops, 'his holiness', 'his eminence', MOGs, 'mmPMs' (a friend's neologism for 'mumu-pastors-ministers', whetever that means), etc.

Folks, in as much as we seek to grow as BELIEVERS in our relationship with God, discernment is the watchword. Isolationism, DIYs (do-it-yourself), freelancing, individualism, etc willl not produce a healthy outcome in any believer's walk; and even one's best intentions in any denomination/church does not guarantee a healthy relationship either. The Holy Spirit does not encourage either individualism nor unhealthy group fellowships - but where He leads, His 'witness' will be experienced in the heart of a believer who understands what growth in the grace of God means.

mmPMs?

Viaro, I beg you not to make me blow a gasket so early in the week!

When you say individualism though, I get the idea that you forget such as Moses, Elijah and Jesus Himself were accused of such. Truth is that there will be errors in individual understandings but these are incomparable to "institutionalized" congregational errors. Where one afflicts an individual, imagine error accepted as truth in a congregation as large as RCCG and its far reaching effect.