vescucci,
Many faiths are beseeching you? How i wish you're not just touched but that you repent. Being a believer is unique from any faith. Jesus says He's the ONLY way to God. God's Word speaks with more authority, certainty and finality than any other faith's. God's Word affect every part of you. Would be good if you were fully christian and believed the Bible 100%. That's the only way that you could truly benefit from it.

He can only be influenced by his parents and surroundings. He is responsible for his conduct only once he attains maturity and anything before then matters not. I'm comfortable with that.

One may argue that a child is responsible for his actions at a particular age, but there's no doubt that he can well face the consequences of his actions at any age. Ignoranc e is not an excuse in the law courts, you know. And he's not sinless like you stated. He's already corrupt by default. True, everyone is responsible for himself, but fact remains that we did inherit something. Take for example that you inherited a particular citizenship from your parents, or wealth or poverty. It is sure inherited, and could well dictate your life and destiny, but on the other hand, you can change the tide, from rags to riches, or from abundance to penury due to mismanagement that you are responsible for, or from being a pathetic black slave to the world's beloved. A behavioural trait you inherited cannot be overlooked, or a blood genotype etc. But you still ultimately decide what you do with what you inherit, that's free-will. So nobody has an excuse to languish in an "Adam has put me in trouble" excuse. We can all make our way right by accepting Christ's payment. It's one thing to be offered a gift, it's another to receive it. It's one thing to have money paid on your account, it's another to cash it and use it to your good.
Then also, scriptures say that blood sacrifice s for atonement. Maybe that's part of the 90 that you choose not to believe. See what its already costing you? You can check up passages like Leviticus 17v11, Exodus 29v36, Exodus 30v11. There are dozens more on that but this 3 should do.

if you say Adam was created perfect, it would be impossible for him to sin. Simply impossible. It is impossible for Jesus to sin, is it not?

no sir. Adam created perfect doesn't rule out future imperfection, much like a living being born complete/healthy/perfect doesn't rule out future deformity or illness. Now I may not and do not wish to answer all your questions, I think only God can. But let it be more than answering your questions, for there will always be questions. The christian life is a journey that is begun in faith and maintained by faith. I don't know if it's impossible for Jesus to sin NOW, but it wasn't impossible for Him to sin while He was here on earth in flesh. He was tempted and He overcame. We need to also take God's nature into into view/note. God is good, He is just, He is merciful, He is pure, and so we can be assured of His choices or behaviour to an extent. God's will can not just be anything.
And of course, God rewards righteousness, but the foundation of righteousness matters. Like I used an analogy, malt, fine plate, golden table, chicken, these are all good stuff. But they pale out as good when to be taken in conjunctiopn with rotten beans. The spoilt food spoils everything and makes it unfit for consumption. In same vein, the 'infected' nature renders our good works(if we are not converted and cleansed) worthless before God, who sees better and closer. From afar, others might think/scent a great meal, but He who made us, owns us and sees us knows better.
Everyone has a conscience, sure. God put it there. We all have spirit, soul and body. We all have brain, heart, eye, blood etc. It's normal but not a criteria or guarantee for God's certification of our lives/ways. Jesus says its simple to believe. He says "Only believe". Beliving is simply[b] trusting[/b]. Forsake your pride and shame and simply trust. I'm sure you know how to trust. It's like as a little kid, you swing high like there's no tomorrow. Daddy carries you on the neck and mummy throws you up and you smile/laugh. That's trust. You trust that nothing harmful will happen to you, daddy won't drop you, the swing will hold. But as we grow older, we begin to learn about metatarsal, ulna, fibula. Haha, nobody dares swing your arem anyhow now, not to talk of throw you up. Little wonder Jesus said, we must as little children enter into the kingdom of God. It's trust my brother. Faith is simply trusting. F[/b]orsaking [b]A[/b]ll [b]I [b]T[/b]rust [b]H[/b]im. You can trust God today, it's a decision. Decision affects destiny, like you decided to study hard, learn that course, marry, save money etc. The giant steps in life and eternity come/boot with little decisions in our mind.

vescucci:

Aww, Image. I'm touched. Really I am. There're many faiths beseeching also. With even less confusing doctrines. The fact the gospel writers reckon so much with the old testament sef makes me shiver. But that's digressing. Let me answer you one post at a time.

Let me clarify first that I'm not part Christian or something. I believe in say only ten percent of the bible. That even only means I agree with those parts and not some knee-weak conviction. I believe in the truths of some other holy books. The Eden story is more or less the same in Islam but Muslims say every man is born sinless. He can only be influenced by his parents and surroundings. He is responsible for his conduct only once he attains maturity and anything before then matters not. I'm comfortable with that. To me sin is nothing but going against God's will. Simple. If God ordained that we ought to slap our parents in the morning and sleep with our sisters, those would be good deeds. If He says we should never show affection, it would be sin to do so. It is that simple to me. Then if you say Adam was created perfect, it would be impossible for him to sin. Simply impossible. It is impossible for Jesus to sin, is it not? For Adam to sin at all shows free will is the only thing responsible for sin and nothing more. Nothing like original sin. Every man is responsible for himself. The blood sacrifice of the Jews is not exactly meant for atonement but I don't wanna digress. I believe God is not incapable of simply forgiving someone. He can do so if He wants. Ask for forgiveness and you get it. Which kinda creepy justice is only moved to punish sin and never reward righteousness. You gave examples of children naturally behaving naughty. Well, you the parent bother to teach them morals. Why do you bother? Is it not cuz you want what's best for them. I'm sure you'd give your life to save your family from certain death. Even atheists with no hope of a hereafter would do so. Even animals will do so. If we were not also inherently good, every society would be anarchist. We tend to do evil, yes. But we also tend to do good. You have a conscience whether you're a Christian, Muslim, Hindu or whatever. So Adam messed up on his behalf. I'm responsible for my behalf. The only thing he might have denied me is Eden. On to the next one.

Excellent post!

God or Jehovah. Which are you worshiping?

Sir, Image. Ca va?

I did not mean many faiths are beseeching ME directly. They're just beseeching. Inasmuch as I accept Jesus as a holy man who would never lie and I trust him and believe in him. I do not believe he is divine at all and most importantly I do not accept everything the gospel writers say (or what people say they said) as FACT. There were literally thousands of gospels flying around for literally hundreds of years before some wiseguys decide to formulate a formula for all of us to believe in. And even then, they weren't unanimously in agreement. Also in my opinion, water gets purer towards the spring source. It is thus impossible, in my opinion, to understand Jesus and his message increasingly as time passes. In other words, the disciples can easily be schooled by a contemporary Christian with the many twists and turns that Christianity has taken now and that is just wrong. I've always wondered why the bible can never speak plainly about anything. Matters are always subject to debate by scholars, etc. The phrase 'Byzantine argument' arose from such pointless arguments. Being a believer in anything is unique na, lol. It remains to be seen if Jesus said he's the ONLY way to God. I don't know if he said any such thing. On a comic note, do you suppose God of the bible talks with more confidence than any god of other religions? I do not think the deities of other religions necessarily have to be exclusive. Any idea of God that is singular is real and right to me. In other words, just because you don't call God, Jehovah doesn't make your perception fake or non-existent. I'll reply your next post

senor, vescucci ca va bien.
My point exactly being that you need to accept the Bible 100% if you'll get anything SIGNIFICANT from it's study. God is not the author of confusion, so it's someone else. Taken that there are thousands of gospels, but it's fair to say that none come close to the true gospel. Jesus is the true gospel. The whole of scripture centres on Him. This is remarkable considering that amongst those who penned down the Bible were kings, princes, shepherds, soldiers, statesmen, prophets, poor men, rich men, fishermen etc. The books were written through different ages and by many men who never saw each other's writings prior. This is proof enough to its superiority over other gospels. It's information on human nature and things concerning life and eternity is unparalleled. It's popularity, circulation, translation, and necessity are awesome. Atheists and those from other religions feel uneducated enough without some knowledge of this true gospel. It meets the deepest needs of man's soul and spirit than any other gospel.
The fact that the 66books of the Bible remain despite storms and conflict, confirms its divine origin. God says His words cannot pass away. All you need do is ONLY BELIEVE.

So ignorance is not an excuse in God's sight too, right? So if God has a problem with wearing contact lenses and you have no idea, you have committee sin? Let me tell you what I think sin is. God doesn't want us to fornicate it seems. Fornicate till thy kingdom come, it doesn't affect God an iota. Before he created us, there could possibly be nothing like fornication. So it is just a rule that he created. So there's nothing like sin in a totalitarian way. It is flexible. Sin as far as God is concerned is just an exercise of the free will He gave us to deviate from His wishes. As an analogy, an executioner is not a criminal even though he has probably killed more people than anyone. No sin is inherited. If Adam was perfect, he'd not be able to sin. It'll be as impossible as water spontaneously turning into lead. There has to be some external factor. You said it is possible for Jesus to have been tempted. How can you even harbor such a paradox in your head? It reminds me of the book, 1984. Satan is not in competition with God. He is not akin to Hades and God, Zeus. He has zero power over God at all. But I'll allow you to humour me for the sake of conversation. Jesus needs to be tempted. Do you think he'd wake up one day and decide to upset God's plan? He has free will too. He can decide to want to have sex or hurt someone. You or someone said he bypassed the evil gene by not having a father. Adam had no father or mother. He was God's prototype. Maybe God is not very good at creating. I'd expect the first creation to at least do ok. But no. Let me take it from another angle. Jesus is supposed to restore us back to the relationship Adam had with God in heaven, right? If Adam fell for any other reason from his free will, it is reasonable to believe that we can still sin in heaven after we die and are admitted into it. If you assume that this is impossible, then you should see my point. It is not inconceivable that man was meant to fall. That that was God's plan from the beginning to spurt out all the drama that this world is. It must be boring if we all lived happily forever after like hippies in heaven, don't you think? Hell, Jesus, Satan, Muhammad, suicide bombings, Gandhi, the holocaust, Israel and George Bush makes the world very exciting indeed.

I'll leave the atonement/sacrifice thing but I'll just say God is literally bloodthirsty o. Have you come across mythology of other civilizations and observe the stunning similarities and need for a saviour and pure sacrifice? Even in Africa, a 'god' will demand a virgin sacrifice. Maybe they believe in original sin too, you know?

Ignorance is not an excuse, yep. In the sense that a trailer will not go through a blind man, or mad man, or a baby just because the man or baby is oblivious of the approaching trailer. It will run him down to an early grave. So ignorance is not an excuse my brother. Even God's people perish for lack of knowledge (Hosea 4v6), not to talk of 'who sabi ams'. This of course doesn't rule out God's mercy for we're informed that God is merciful. He tenders judgement with mercy. But I'm not judge, i don't have the final verdict. God cares very much about our actions. How would you feel if your computer behaved anyhow. It's yours! And we're created to show forth God's praise (1Peter 2v9). I'm pleased with your perspective on the executioner, it's spot on.
Now a perfect product can spoil. That's not hard to imagine. Sure it takes an external influence. The serpent and the tree were not internal influences. This is what makes Jesus the 2nd Adam(1 corinthians 15v47). No sin by default, unlike us. But He could sin, just like Adam sinned. Thank God He didn't sin, that's what makes His sacrifice acceptable, He was spotless, clean, holy, by default and by practice/life.

You'd expect the first creation to at least do okay. I also expect that. Everyone expected that, even satan must have expected that. Adam was not expected to mess up. He was created good (Genesis 1v31). The title deed of the earth was handed over to him. All he needed not to do was don't eat this one tree, every other thing is yours. He had the job, and had earlier been shown the answers to the aptitude test. All he had to do was pass the test. And then he's coming up with pass the buck excuses.
Now the devil is in charge of confusion, that's why you see many religions looking similar. It's like a road was built/to be built to WONDERLAND, then some mischievous fellow comes up and constructs about 10 roads alongside the real road to WONDERLAND. He's made a round about where there was none. He's even created unnecessary traffic, and some may well say he has brought development and social amenity. But truth is that only one of those roads lead to God. The others, no matter who contructed them, no matter the number of flyovers and lanes on the roads, they don't lead to God.

Ok. Thanks for your insights. At least they are straight forward. I like straight forward very much.

If you say ignorance is no excuse, then I have a problem with God o. That's the biggest entrapment in the history of man. Do you think anyone will choose hell over heaven? Death over everlasting life? Not even serial killers. So everyone wants what Jesus offers or seems to offer. Rejecting it is simply ridiculous. It is like a thirsty desert traveller rejecting water. Now, the only reason why people stick to any religion or reject all of them is that they're not convinced of what they say. This is not a crime to me. You can't program a computer to solve simple algebra and get pissed cuz it doesn't understand partial differential equations. If I don't believe in this or that, frankly, it's God's fault. Some people say if I keep searching I'll get something akin to an epiphany and an overwhelming conviction will replace my skepticism. I hope so. If God didn't bait Adam, why did he put the tree within his reach? Why does He allow Satan all that space? Why not get rid of him? Something just occured to me right now. Could it be that the apple represents free will? They say it is the knowledge of right and wrong. It means that we could be doing 'wrong' but without knowledge of it being wrong. God is ok with that. Adam was naked before but felt ashamed after eating. Only then was it wrong to be naked. We might be mating like animals and God will have no qualms. You realise that someone must have slept with his mother, daughter, sister, aunty etc for the world to get populated so. But now, you won't marry your fourth cousin. You'd go eww. So it is not an act that is sin but perhaps the motive behind it. The bible says Satan wanted to be like God. Jeez. Does he imagine God evolved? Or He was only powerful cuz He sat on a throne and if he could garner the allegiance of enough of God's army, he might take over. It's all so confusing. You have to give me that, Image.

Let me ask you this. To you, Jesus Christ is God, right? Or Son of God. Or something divine. He had the capacity to sin but hadn't and that thus makes him the perfect sacrifice. If he had sinned, what would happen? God will send another chunk of Himself or Jesus would die and be born of another woman for another try or what? Against who is he sinning? I'm not blaspheming, trust me. I can't help what I think. Also, do you think God can sin? If God killed us all, did He sin?

I forgot to ask. Are you saying Satan is so powerful that he has the God's blueprints, knows His plans and knows how to sabotage them? If Satan is such a masterful deceiver that the very elect is not safe from him, how can you blame people looking at Christianity from outside in and are so confused that they leave it alone. You think of how Christianity was watered down (or rather dressed up) to fit the pagans of old. Christmas, Easter, almost every Catholic practice (apologies to Catholics) just makes you wonder where the definitive line is, and it is one hell of a thin line. God loves us so freaking much but Satan doesn't let Him save us. And something that always puzzles me. You do realise that God is saving us from Himself. There's nothing in this universe to fear but God, you know.

Wow, one step at a time. Now that a lot of itching you've done, lol. Now I cannot and I would not answer all your questions. I'm not omniscient. But do climb the ladder one step at a time. You're trying to see up with one huge step, that's why it's ALL so tasking. One step, first major step, ONLY believe. That's easy. Fear no fall, humble yourself, there's nothing to lose with God, except your sins of course.
Ignorance can't be an excuse. That's life for you. If someone ignorantly/deliberately falls into a well, it matters little. Both lives are in danger. An ignorant sinner and a deliberate sinner are both sinners before God. Sin can be called 'missing the mark' of God's standard of righteousness. Zero is zero, sincerely or deliberately. all have sinned, but Jesus brings a way out. I'll rather say everyone NEEDS what Jesus offers. Many don't want it. Even the dying thief at Jesus side didn't want it. The other thief was wiser anyway. There are people here on nl who are proudly 'jogging to hell fire', and they don't care. That's freewill.

Rejecting Christ is ridiculous, but I'm still pleading that you should accept Him. (Revelation 3v20).
You ask why God put the tree within man's reach and give satan space. There goes freewill. What's freewill if everything was conditioned. What sort of victory comes without a 'fight'? What sort of pass comes without a test? What sort of conqueror is without a conquered foe, what has he then conquered? I don't know about any apple, but I believe you're referring to the tree of knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL, not right and wrong. Not everything in the kitchen is edible, right? They all serve their purpose. This tree was not for Adam's consumption. Let's leave it as simple as that. Fire is good/useful, but not as a body cream.
Hebrews 11v6. Without faith, it's IMPOSSIBLE to please God. Walk with God requires faith/trust, not knowledge or independence to be gods as the serpent promised Eve.

Ok, sir! Unfortunately I have to sleep now. Believing is not something you can just do. It's not like frying an egg. I can say the words and not believe squat. I don't want to exasperate you. You're really nice. You don't even know me and you want me to be saved. Lol. Thanks jare.

BTW, I laughed very hard at the folks that are proudly jogging to hell. We'll see about that, lol

Thanks good night. I'm just going to sleep now when I saw this. Hope i won't need an usher in church today.

vescucci
hi. Now talking about faith, faith without works is dead. You can show your faith by your works, it's very easy. You don't of necessity need to feel or have great faith to be saved by Jesus. He recognises tiny faith, what is called mustard seed size. That one will do the job. God has promised that WHOSOEVER shall CALL on the name of the Lord shall be SAVED(Romans 10v13). That is the work that shows that there's faith. Call. The call is a simple prayer. Just an acknowledgement that God can hear you, and then you begin the call. Simply in your words tell Him. God I'm sorry for offending you, I accept Jesus' payment for my sins, I don't want to offend you again, help me God.
That's the wisest step anyman ever took, so easy we often miss it. vescucci please, Jesus can visit you today. That's what is called repentance.

Mmmmh very funny, image123 who doesn't understand what it means to be a follower of christ is preaching to someone to accept christ
@image
I think you shd truly accept christ first and know his will before you engage in "evangelism". Meanwhile how was church today? I am sure the tithes were rolling in as usual.

KunleOshob:


Mmmmh very funny, image123 who doesn't understand what it means to be a follower of christ is preaching to someone to accept christ

@image

I think you shd truly accept christ first and know his will before you engage in "evangelism".

Meanwhile how was church today? I am sure the tithes were rolling in as usual.

@KunleOshob

This response has nothing specifically to do with Image123

Now you need to realise that not all that follow Jesus, necessarily have Christ in them

People follow Jesus for all sorts of motives/reasons

Normally following Jesus and having Christ in you should be mutually inclusive but most cases that isnt often so

It is common for people to follow Jesus without having Christ in them

PS: ^{Vescucci I havent jettisoned you, will touchbase later . . .}

Hi, Image. Thanks jare. Is it really impossible for me to pray to 'God the father' directly. It seems as though the father is like a terrible terrible uncompromising entity of power and Jesus is the only one He has a soft spot for and we all have to ask him to put in a good word for us to be saved, apparently from God, the father. That's how it all sounds to me. I pray to God in one form or another almost everyday.

I'll let other people talk about tithing. It's glaringly unbiblical to me, but I'll save my breath. Funny thing is how Christians seem to enjoy complicating everything. If I were Christian, I'd wonder what all the argument were about. Believe Jesus died for you and try to love your neighbour as yourself (even though this is the tallest order ever, it is the striving that matters). Finito. But no. Man naturally gravitates towards his herd mentality and the need for organized religion is overwhelming. Just a thought sha.

Hey, e36991. The thought never crossed my mind, amigo. Besides, with a parachute, I'm A O K.

vescucci.
Yes, it's possible for you to pray to God the Father. And you feel awkward about it, speak to Jesus, He'll simply speak to God on your behalf. John 14v9b(He that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?). Jesus also said he that comes to me, I will not cast out. He's left us all without excuse. The call. The ball is in your court.

You believe in the trinity, right? Literally?

Yes, and what other way can one believe in the trinity. Besides, that not an issue compared to our discuss here.

Some people say Jesus is God. Some say he is divine since he comes forth from God but is a separate entity since he existed on his own since the birth of time. Some say he is a chunk of God etc. You can take your pick really. It is relevant o

^
It's not irrelevant. It's what they call doctrine. But it has nothing to do with you. The most important issue is that there's a decision that you ought to make. and you've not made it. You're exercising your freewill and procrastinating friend.

Lol, like God meant me to.

No more like satan wants you to delay and to make the wrond decision. But God wants you to repent. 2Peter 3v9 (not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance)

Neither.

I prefer to be a leader, not a blind follower.

Image123:

One may argue that a child is responsible for his actions at a particular age, but there's no doubt that he can well face the consequences of his actions at any age. Ignoranc e is not an excuse in the law courts, you know. And he's not sinless like you stated. He's already corrupt by default. True, everyone is responsible for himself, but fact remains that we did inherit something. Take for example that you inherited a particular citizenship from your parents, or wealth or poverty. It is sure inherited, and could well dictate your life and destiny, but on the other hand, you can change the tide, from rags to riches, or from abundance to penury due to mismanagement that you are responsible for, or from being a pathetic black slave to the world's beloved. A behavioural trait you inherited cannot be overlooked, or a blood genotype etc. But you still ultimately decide what you do with what you inherit, that's free-will. So nobody has an excuse to languish in an "Adam has put me in trouble" excuse. We can all make our way right by accepting Christ's payment. It's one thing to be offered a gift, it's another to receive it. It's one thing to have money paid on your account, it's another to cash it and use it to your good.
Then also, scriptures say that blood sacrifice s for atonement. Maybe that's part of the 90 that you choose not to believe. See what its already costing you? You can check up passages like Leviticus 17v11, Exodus 29v36, Exodus 30v11. There are dozens more on that but this 3 should do.

Can someone explain to me what this ‘atonement’ business is all about?  From my viewpoint, the whole idea is laughable.  From what I hear, we are created by an all-knowing God in his own image, but he did not foresee that we would start misbehaving!  So much for omniscience!  He later decided that our misbehavior was so bad that he sentenced everybody to death by the most sadistic form of execution – execution by drowning!  So much for an all-loving God.  He left one good family to repopulate the world, but the descendants   continued misbehaving making them eligible to be sentenced to eternal fire and torment in a hell created specially by God himself.  But on second thoughts, he does not want to roast everybody.  So he arranged and sent his son to come to the world to be killed by the same people he wants to save, as a sacrifice to himself?  After three days, this son will wake up, and this whole spectacle would make God change his mind and not want to roast everybody again.  However, some will still be roasted.  The main yardstick in deciding those who will escape roasting will be those who believe the man who was killed and woke up was his son.  Any other parameter is secondary.  Am I missing something?  The whole idea is laughable.

^one vital point you're missing is that the whole idea is real.

Image123:

^one vital point you're missing is that the whole idea is real.

That is what continues to amaze me! That grown-up adults could still believe such a story.

Too bad.