alBHAGDADI:


You just wrote a pile load of junk (except the Bible verses). It also shows that you lack knowledge of the Bible.

The passage in Ephesians 2:8-9 isn't talking about circumcisions. How dare you say that is the context of the passage when nothing in the entire chapter talked about circumcisions? When talking about context of a verse, it is about what the previous or succeeding verses say to give clear meaning to the particular verse. You are totally wrong or dubious to have said the context of that verse is about circumcision when the entire chapter doesn't say anything like that. I guess you just wanted to get rid of the verse that shows clearly that salvation is not of works but by faith.

The funny part is that the other Bible verse and explanation you gave are actually you shooting yourself in the foot. Over and over again you kept speaking of how Paul kicked against the law which includes circumcision, yet you want us to believe that keeping the law is necessary for salvation. That's very funny.

Anas09:

Sir, keeping the law does not give you salvation, but if it is offered and you take it, you work to keep it or you loose it.

If you turn away after gladly receiving it, you'd loose it.

Jesus used the Parable of The Sower to Illustrate this.

And again, it is he who hears the Word and does something about it that is Justified by God, not those who hear it, believe it but sit down and did nothing.

Sir, i will say it again Justification by Faith Alone is a Farce. Everyone who ever was called by God, worked very hard to stay saved.

What did Romans 12 : 1-2 mean to you?

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

It says, 'Now that you are saved, do something about it'.

Christ does not do the transformation or the renewal for you, hence, it says 'Be Ye'. You do it by yourself. Why not sit back and do nothing?

Work out your Salvation with Fear (godly reverence) and tremble, for Faith without works amounts to foolishness, like a man who builds his house on sand.

Jesus never gave you this message because He himself worked. Apst Paul Worked, all of them worked and paid dearly for their Faith.

Jesus said Hold on to what you have so that it won't be taken from you.

If you sincerely believe that Justification is by Faith Alone, trust me, you shall be the Servant whom The Master will say to 'Where is the talent i gave to you?'

alBHAGDADI:

You said the law doesn't not give salvation, how come you are hammering on it by implying that one can lose his salvation by not keeping the law? I hope you do know what the law means, and that it's not just the law of Moses.

alBHAGDADI:

You also said one can lose his salvation. I'll try not to be rude, but I'll ask: are you educated at all?. How can you lose your salvation when you are not the one that saved yourself? It's like a Bank walking up to you and saying you have lost the 50 million Naira you saved with them. Won't you find it odd that they failed in their responsibility to keep the money safe as they promised? Well, earthly banks can fail, not Jesus Christ. He is the one that saved you and still in charge of keeping you. Even if you go astray, he's going to bring you back. You can't lose your salvation because you already have eternal life. Losing your salvation will only mean the eternal life wasn't eternal after all.

alBHAGDADI:

Presenting your body holy unto God doesn't mean it is saying we should save ourselves. It simply means we should live a holy life which isn't a prerequisite to salvation. It is just a fruit of salvation which when others see, they will be encouraged to embrace that spirit that changed your life for good.

alBHAGDADI:

Your last paragraphs are just you quoting scriptures halfway and mixing it up with your own ideology. Do you know what it means to work out your salvation? It is not saying you should save yourself just as you are implying. If that's the case, then what is the essence of Jesus dying when we can actually save ourselves? Now read the verse and the next verse to understand the context, since you've never been trained to know what cintext means.

alBHAGDADI:

b]Philippians 2:12-13[/b]
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

When you go to the gym, what do you say you are doing there? You say you are working out. What are you working out? Your muscles. when you work out your muscles, your friends start to admire your new look. This can encourage them to go to the gym too and look marvelous like you. When you go to the gym, you are simply working out the muscles which God already put in you. Now go up and read the verses again and see how it matches my illustration.

Your own illustration of verse 12 is that we need to neglect Jesus and save ourselves. You neglected the next verse which is suppose to give you full understanding.

You say justification is not by faith alone. But look at what the below verses say.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

alBHAGDADI:

Your points are funny and they show how confused you are. All what you wrote above are talking about someone that has not been saved. Whereas the discussion is mainly about someone who has been saved, whether he can lose that salvation.

If someone has not been saved, then you can say his rejection of Jesus is what is keeping God from saving him. But if that person has been saved and he wanders off into sin, this doesn't mean he has lost his salvation. He can't lose his salvation because he didn't save himself. The one who saved him will ensure he returns to the fold. That's the essence of the parable of the lost coin and lost sheep which Jesus gave. He gave those parables to show that he will go look for any of his sheep that wanders off and return him to the fold.

Mathew 18:12-13
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

Luke15:8-9
8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.

That's still the same as the parable of the prodigal son who later realized his error and returned to his father's house. The parable shows that a Christian who wanders off can return on his own after realizing his mistake. If he doesn't, Jesus will go look for him like the good shepherd that he is.

You can't lose your salvation, because the one who saved you is greater than you.

rhektor:


Thank you very much for using the parable of the prodigal son. The son was with the father and decided to go away did the father stop him from going? No because he is free to make decisions for himself so it is with every Christian if you decide to walk away from God he will not force his omnipotence on you. Are you getting it sir? Did the father go about looking for him until he return? The parable of the lost coin is not about God looking for lost souls it is about those souls that has lost the kingdom looking for it again because it is very important to them. If they did not loose it they wouldn't be looking for it can you see now that you've been on wrong side of the divide? May God grant you the grace to return to the track brother

Anas09:

This is the last i will say here because it's becoming a thing of pride, of who wins the argument.

What law are we talking about here exactly? because YHWH gave two sets of laws to Moses. The ceremonial or Sacrificial laws which were a shadow of Christ and what He wld do and Moral Laws of the Ten Commandments which are encapsulated in Loving God and other humans.

Which one are you not keeping sir? because even the Lord Jesus said "Don't suppose for a minute that I have come to demolish the Scriptures— either God's Law or the Prophets. I'm not here to demolish but to complete. I am going to put it all together, pull it all together in a vast panorama. God's Law is more real and lasting than the stars in the sky and the ground at your feet. Long after stars burn out and earth wears out, God's Law will be alive and working.

"Trivialize even the smallest item in God's Law and you will only have trivialized yourself. But take it seriously, show the way for others, and you will find honor in the kingdom.

Matt 5: 17-18 (The Message Bible).

Sir, here Jesus Christ the Lord God of Heaven and earth just told you to trivialize the Law at your peril.


Oh Lord!. This guy. I said we merit nothing to earn salvation, but once you receive it, you work to keep it.

That is why the Bible is full of 'Thou shall Nots'.

Sir. The Lord's teachings shows clearly that you can loose your salvation if you don't do something about it. You don't do something to get, but you do something to keep it.

Let's look at a few of such teachings.

1. The Parable of the Talents.
The servant who did nothing after receiving the talent got thrown out. He was he servant? Yes. Was he given salvation? Yes, did he loose it yes. Becos he was thrown out where there's gnashing of teeth.

2. The Ten virgins.
5 were wise, but 5 were foolish. They both received salvation freely. 5Kept doing stuff which kept them oiled, 5 did nothing because they believed Justification is only by the Faith that they had in Jesus, They got dried out and thrown out.

The Parable of the Sower.
There were 4 categorise of those who received salvation gladly. what happened to the other 3 groups, they did Nothing with it. what happened next? satan took it away.

Sir, God's gifts are without repentance, even to satan, what He gives He does not take back. But, you can throw yours away. Adam did didn't he?


I believe every rational reader would see that i have never said we can save ourselves by what we do.

The discourse here is not about whether or not we can save ourselves. It is whether or not we can loose our salvation after receiving it. And, that is exactly what Rom. 12: 1-2 says. After Salvation, work to keep it.

Salvation is a door which opens into a work shop. Someone else opens it, but while inside, Work. Jesus being God, worked.

You called what Romans says 'Fruits'. I hope you know that fruits are the results of work? Faith without works is dead.



Who ever said anything about saving oneself?

Work your salvation is the same as what John the Baptist said to the Jews;
When John realized that a lot of Pharisees and Sadducees were showing up for a baptismal experience because it was becoming the popular thing to do, he exploded: "Brood of snakes! What do you think you're doing slithering down here to the river? Do you think a little water on your snakeskins is going to make any difference? It's your life that must change, not your skin! And don't think you can pull rank by claiming Abraham as father. Being a descendant of Abraham is neither here nor there. Descendants of Abraham are a dime a dozen. What counts is your life. Is it green and blossoming? Because if it's deadwood, it goes on the fire. (M.S.G)

Bringing up fruits meet for repentance is what that verse is saying. But what if you don't bring fruits? What did Jesus say about a fruitless tree? Cut it down and turn it to firewood.


If you can trace what prompted Paul to say these, you'd know you are standing on a wrong premise.

Paul was rebuking the Jews and encouraging the Gentiles.

This verse explicitly tells me one can loose their Salvation.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Revelation:3:5

It's the Master Himself talking here. If He can blot out a name from His book of Life, means that name was written there in the first place, for you can't erase what was not written. That name was written at Salvation, but can get erased out of carelessness.

alBHAGDADI:


You've just been churning out words of your own understanding which don't go in line with scriptures. All the parables you gave are clearly misunderstood.

All what you wrote up there are destroyed by the two verses below.

Romans 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


The passage in Romans say if you do not WORK, you are still justified for believing in Jesus. This clearly goes in line with Ephesians seen above which says salvation is not by WORKS but by Faith. Until you come up with verses, all you'll just be saying will be your own man-made doctrine.

alBHAGDADI:

r
Very twisted analogy.

Those three parables given by Jesus show the different ways a stray Christian can return to the fold. The first and second, which involves the lost sheep and lost coin, show that the savior will go out and look for that which goes astray. The last which is the parable of the prodigal son speaks of a Christian willingly and on his own returning to the fold after going astray.

You saying the parable of the lost coin is speaking of someone who lost his salvation is totally wrong. If you juxtapose both parables, i.e the lost sheep and lost coin, you will see similarities. A sheep went astray and a coin got lost. The owner goes looking for the sheep and the coin. He leaves the rest sheep and coins just to look for the lost one. If you say the person doing the searching is not Jesus our savior but a person who loses his salvation, which you say is represented by sheep and coin, then what do we say the 99 remaining sheep and 9 coins represent? Are you trying to say the lost sheep and coin represent 1% of his salvation?

All three parables have something in common. The shepherd, the coins owner and the father of the prodigal son all rejoicing after they found what was lost. The three of them represent Jesus who goes searching for his own to return them to the fold because he is a perfect savior who will never lose any of his. Yes, we might wander off, but we will surely come back or he comes searching for us till he finds us and returns us to the fold of saved people.

Now read the parable of the lost sheep below and see how it clearly shows that the shepherd who goes in search of the lost sheep is Jesus. Verses 11 and 14 clearly points that out.

Mathew 18:11-14

11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.


Pay attaention to verses 7 and 10. They show you clearly that the lost sheep and lost coin are a sinner that repents. This is against your stance that the shepherd and the coin owner is actually the sinner that repents.


Luke 15:3-24

3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying,

4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

9 And when she hath found it, she calleth her friends and her neighbours together, saying, Rejoice with me; for I have found the piece which I had lost.

10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.

11 And he said, A certain man had two sons:

12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.

13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.

15 And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.

16 And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.

17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,

19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:

24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

rhektor:


Why did they stray? Sebi God is so powerful that no one can ever wret himself away from his grip. Ọ̀gá stop confusing yourself, you claimed that my analogy was twisted yet you are repeating my comment. Week yiy said that the prodigal son decided to walk away from the father did you ask yourself if the father was not capable of stopping him? The lost coin was precious to the woman, if your salvation is precious to you please don't play gamble with it. Whoever has laid his hand on the plough and looked back is not fit for the kingdom. The parable of the lost sheep should even teach you something about salvation. The sheep should not have been lost in the first place since you said nothing (Noone) in the hand of the father can get lost, would Jesus mean that the himself or the father are not capable of keeping the sheep? Isn't that what you've been writing here since I have engaged you on this topic? Salvation can be lost just like the lost coin just like the lost sheep just like the prodigal son.
It is either you have not been reading other people's comments here or you just fixate your mind on this your new found belief system, either way you are wrong
I don't think I need to continue responding to you on this issue any longer. Peace be unto you

alBHAGDADI:


Your problem is that you think you can never sin again when you become born again. When you sin, you go astray. But that doesn't mean you have lost your salvation. If you die after going astray, you will still make heaven because your spirit got saved but your flesh is the one which went astray. The sheep went astray, likewise the coin and the prodigal son. Some of them have the ability to return back to the fold e.g the sheep and prodigal son. But which ever doesn't return, God can bring back. Whether it returns or not, the soul is saved. The moment you become born again, your spirit becomes a new person while your body remains the same. Your flesh constantly wars against your spirit but it can never conquer it because it is saved forever.

You guys are the ones who have ignored countless Bible verses to hold on to man-made doctrines. You are counting on your works to save you instead of Jesus. To some of you, it is Jesus plus your works. Whereas, Jesus paid it all alone on the cross. You want to share in his glory. If you think your filthy works of righteous can be even an inch as good as what Jesus did on the cross, then you are a liar. You think you can place filthy rags alongside Jesus to save yourself.

Isaiah 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing , and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;

All our works of righteousness are filthy rags before God. That's why He says we are saved by grace through faith and not of works of righteousness which are filthy rags.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


If it was by works or if it involves works in any sense, then we will boast when we get to heaven. Boasting like "I didn't sin, I didn't fornicate, I didn't lie, I paid my tithe etc, that's why God allowed me into heaven" Read verse 9 again.

rhektor:


Thank you very much for thinking that I have ignored the principle of God and hold on to man-made doctrine. It is laughable when you accuse others of what you do. Let us look at it this way. Jesus said that you should STRIVE TO ENTER that is also man-made according to you but the passage you quote from Ephesians is God-made Akiika continue. You claim that I mean we can never commit sin again after knowing and accepting Christ please quote me exactly and stop thinking for me I have never said anything like not even close at all. That all my works of righteousness are like filthy rag yes you're right however what would all your own work of unrighteousness will look like? Think about it. Jesus paid alone on the cross and trying to be righteous means sharing his glory like seriously? Did you read where he said you must be perfect even as your father which is in heaven? Mathew 5:48 Is that passage my own making? Why should we be perfect again since he alone did the work on the cross and to you that's final? What essence is living a holy life again since believing in Jesus will get you salvation without any good Virtue or character? Of what essence is your Christian life? Why should I u follow peace with all men? Did the scripture say in vain that without holiness no man shall see the Lord? Jesus after healing a man command him to go and sin no more are you telling me now in 2018 that Jesus did not know what he was saying then? Oga go away with your useless sermon from GHENENA.
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be Revelation 22:12 that is also man-made doctrine right?
My issue with you us just that you won't read this because all your responses so far has been based on your delusion
I have quoted Jesus himself but you'll still call them man-made doctrine as if you alone have access to God

alBHAGDADI:
You always fail to distinguish between requirement for salvation and a normal life expected of a Christian. To you, living a holy life full of works of filthy rags is what gets you saved, whereas no Bible verse says such. The Bible only requires you live a holy life as a Christian so that others won't say a Christian's life is no different from that of an unbeliever. Living a holy and righteous life is the fruit of salvation, not the requirement for salvation. The requirement for salvation is believe in Jesus Christ which makes you righteous above any self-righteousness


Romans 3:2
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

God's grace has already brought salvation to all men. It then teaches us to live godly lives, not that the godly living is what saves us. We have already been saved by his grace which we put faith in.

Titus 2:11-12
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.

You can never enter Gods kingdom if you are depending on your fulfillness of the law which is the knowledge of sin. If you fulfill all but fail in one, then you are guilty of all the ones you even passed.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Romans 10:14
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

James 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

It's either you rely on Jesus as your righteousness because he fulfilled the law, or you continue to trust in your works of righteousness to fulfill the law, which are filthy rags before God. The moment you fail in one aspect of the law, you become guilty of all and get damned for all eternity.

People like you have been spoken of in the Bible by Jesus himself. You people rely on your works and ignore Jesus. You are sounding like you had Jesus in high esteem concerning salvation. Then how come you hold works of filthy rags in the same esteem?

Now, read the passage below.


Mathew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus said not everyone who calls him Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. He said only those who do his Father's will. Many people have mistaken the Father's will to mean you have to live righteous, holy and not sin. That is wrong. They have spoken what the Bible didn't say.

Now, what is the Father's will which Jesus said is the only thing to do to enter the kingdom of heaven?

John 6:39-40
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Pay attention to verse 40. The will of the Father is that all those who believe in Jesus may have everlasting life. Those people whom Jesus said he never knew in Mathew 7:21-23 are people who didn't do the will of the father i.e they didn't believe in Jesus but we're trusting in their works to save them. Look at what they said in verse 22.

Mathew 7:22
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

They were trusting in their works instead of believe in Jesus. That's to show that they never believed in Jesus who said those who believe in him will have eternal life. They were just calling Jesus Lord without doing his Father's will. That's why Jesus said he never knew them. Let's say they were saved before but lost their salvation, is Jesus right to have said he never knew them? The right statement would be "I use to know you but since you backslide I stopped knowing you". But Jesus said he never knew them because they were never saved.

It's even beautiful how John 6:39 shows that the will of God is that Jesus will never lose all he has given him. Yet you say some will lose their salvation.

John 6:39
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


Yes, Jesus said he will reward every man according to his works. This doesn't mean the works are what will save a man nor will even play an inch role in saving him. One of the reasons why we are admonished to do works is for heavenly rewards from Jesus, not because it saves.

Yes, without holiness no man shall see God. Jesus has made us righteous and worthy to see God.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Yes, Jesus told that man to go and sin no more. Were you expecting him to tell him to continue sinning? Jesus never said go and sin no more so you won't missed heaven. He simply warned against sinning which bears consequence.

rhektor:

I will no longer dignify your illusion by responding take care

alBHAGDADI:


My comments are not meant for goats but sheep.

jiggaz:
Thank you Lord Jesus