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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? (8920 Views)
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Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by Enigma(m): 8:37am On Aug 15, 2010 |
(Edit This thread is a follow on from the following post/thread: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-490515.64.html#msg6541713 ) It is sometimes suggested by anti-Trinitarians that the Trinity doctrine was invented at a council meeting or that it was started by the Roman Catholic Church. Of course people with decent church history know better than to take the anti-Trinitarians seriously --- except to occasionally confront their misleading and sometimes deceitful arguments. The piece below is not exactly a "scholarly" or "heavy tome" (and there are things in it one may question). However, for the beginning enquirer it gives a viewpoint that shows that we should not take such allegations by anti-Trinitarians at face value. From here: http://www.letusreason.org/Trin13.htm The Nicene Council, what was it really about? Many claim that the Trinity doctrine was invented by the Catholic Church at the council of Nicaea in Bithynia, (Turkey) in the 4th century. History has a different story! Its been said if one tells a lie long enough, and hard enough, people will begin to believe it. That is exactly what [my insert: some anti-Trinitarians] have done. They have revised history. |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by Enigma(m): 9:35am On Aug 15, 2010 |
Also, regarding the Johannine Comma: 1 John 5:7-8 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. Many will of course know that this passage is disputed as not being found in the majority of extant manuscripts. Irrespective of that however, there is the genuinely legitimate question: what is the origin of the Comma itself and when/where did it first appear? It seems the first undisputed use of the Comma is attributed to one Priscillian who is said to have written in c. AD 380 that: As John says “and there are three which give testimony on earth, the water, the flesh, the blood, and these three are in one, and there are three which give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit, and these three are one in Christ Jesus.” Some claim that Cyprian who wrote around AD 250 was also referring to the Johannine Comma; this is disputed; what is not disputed though is that the two quotations of Cyprian that are used (from c. AD 250) are clear Trinitarian statements e.g.: The Lord says “I and the Father are one” and likewise it is written of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. “And these three are one.” The worst case that could be made would seem that the Johannine Comma first came about in the 4th century; it is of course yet possible that it came about earlier. |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by Enigma(m): 10:41am On Aug 15, 2010 |
Still on the Johannine Comma The "earliest" manuscript (as opposed to extraneous writings) in which it is known to be recorded is the Latin manuscript m (427 AD; Codex Speculum/Speculum Augustine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Speculum ). That is fairly early despite the arguments that the Latin manuscripts are translated from Greek and the earliest Greek manuscripts known (which are dated later) do not contain the Comma. There is indeed a line of argument that there must probably be early Greek manuscript support for the Comma. For example while some doubt that the Comma was included in the original Latin Vulgate, Jerome who compiled the Vulgate from Greek manuscripts (inter alia) is quoted as having said: "In that place particularly where we read about the unity of the Trinity which is placed in the First Epistle of John, in which also the names of three, i.e., of water, of blood, and of spirit, do they place in their edition and omitting the testimony of the Father, and the Word, and the Spirit in which the catholic (i.e. universal) faith is especially confirmed and the single substance of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is confirmed." (390 AD, Prologue To The Canonical Epistles)(edited) |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by nuclearboy(m): 11:00am On Aug 15, 2010 |
Bro: Aside your foregoing, another question comes to mind - did "trinitarians" or the "RCC" write the Scriptures? where do we place the torah which speaks of the Godhead as one yet shown not as one? Or was that written by the RCC too? |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by Enigma(m): 11:02am On Aug 15, 2010 |
I for say! Na wa oh! (Although the argument would be that the Jews did not have a concept of the Trinity; there are of course possible explanations from the Trinitarian side too) PS Hope to be in touch soon. |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by PastorAIO: 12:40pm On Aug 15, 2010 |
This account of history is wrong on a number of counts. Here are a few. The earliest symbols of christianity were the Chi Rho and the Ichtus. Not the cross. That came later, much later. So what Constantine saw was probably the Chi Rho which he then told his soldiers to paint on their shield, to their utter dismay. Eusebius was Constantine's scribe and adviser. It is quite possible that he was making suggestive ideas into constantine's head. Constantine saw something and Eusebius suggested that it was a sign from the christian God. Eusebius later wrote the story down for posterity. So whatever actually happened we only have one man's version. Constantine sympathised with Christianity and his mother was a christian but he didn't convert. He merely made it legal to be christian again and so stopped the persecution. He did not make christianity the Roman State Religion. Initiation into christianity was always by baptism and it wasn't Constantine that introduced baptism as initiation into christianity. |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by vescucci(m): 2:36pm On Aug 15, 2010 |
@Enigma. Compelling argument which I accept for the most part. I'm not anti-trinity in the way Nuclearboy believes it. I don't accept it but I don't discount it. I merely see it as not being impossible. As regards your write-up, the question is not when or by whom the concept of trinity emerged but why was it favoured among the plethora of views concerning the nature of God. Even among trinitarians, arguments like whether all three members of the trinity are made of the the same substance or whether there is a hierarchy among them. The point is there were many versions of God's nature, the Council mere deliberated and chose the best or perhaps the one with most proponents and made the other views heretical. Lol, Constantine certainly was no Christian. He couldn't be more unchristian-like. He boiled someone and mutilated another out of matrimonial betrayal if memory serves. |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by Enigma(m): 3:22pm On Aug 15, 2010 |
^^^ Actually, whether or not Constantine was a Christian or made Christianity state religion is not exactly relevant to the key point being made here. The key point being made, as I understand that you acknowledge, is that the Trinity doctrine well predated Constantine and the Nicene Council. As to why the Trinity doctrine was favoured, the question to ask is this: Does the Bible lead to the conclusion that each of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit is God? If the answer is yes and if one believes that God is One, then accepting a doctrine of Trinity becomes inevitable. The question then is what are the details of that doctrine of Trinity? Let me state here that I don't believe anyone is damned for not believing in the Trinity per se. If defective doctrine is what damns one, all of us have had it! Having said that: I am very careful about using the word "manifestation" because of its potential interpretation (or misinterpretation, I suppose) as advocating the Oneness/Sabellian doctrine. |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by vescucci(m): 4:23pm On Aug 15, 2010 |
^^^I absolutely agree that trinity predated all those Councils. In fact, I find it ridiculous to believe otherwise. The bible surely seems to propose a trinity. No doubt there too. But you realise the bible books were chosen and compiled during these councils. That's the reason why I say the trinity doctrine was favoured. It happened by default when those 66 books made the final cut. How's your weekend going, good man? |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by Enigma(m): 4:35pm On Aug 15, 2010 |
cool like dat vescucci, many thanx. |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by Nobody: 9:51am On Aug 16, 2010 |
@enigma There are a lot of fallacies in your link which I wish to address History shows that it was Trinitarians that first resisted a single church Government with a Pope as its head, they did not invent it.Zephyrinus (210 AD.) and Callistus (220 AD.) were the first bishops to claim Mt.16:18 to themselves The authourity of the bishop of Rome as the head of the universal church was attested as early as 96 CE,when Pope clement 1 was called in to adjudicate on the crisis in the corinthian church.Also in 156CE,Polycarp bishop of smyrna had to travel to Rome to confer with Pope Anicetus 1 over disagreement in the date of celebration of easter.Alsi in 190 CE,Ireneaus had to plead with Pope victor 1 to stop the excommunications of some christians in north Africa over this same issue of easter date. The truth is that there was no Roman Catholic Church ruling Christianity before Constantine This is another falacy that has been addressed by the remarks above. Constantine 'Christianised' the Roman Empire and made it the religion of the state. He also paganized Christianity in Rome. This is a figment of your own imagination,Constantine only legalised christianity,he did not make it a state religion and he certainly did not paganise christianity. Saints and Images entered the Church under Christian `names, the worship of relics. In Eastern Orthodoxy, icons had intrinsic power The veneration of saints and images also predated constantine. For the avoidance of doubt,The council of nicea did not invent the trinity doctrine,it was merely convoked to resolve the arian heresy.Tertullian merely coined the term trinity,he did not invent it,the concept of trinity has been taught from apostolic times and passed down by sacred apostolic tradition. Tertullian called him an usurper saying, "as if he was the Bishop of Bishop's." So it was Oneness believers who first wanted to be head of the whole Church, not Constantine. Maybe if you don't know tertullian started as a roman catholic christian,when he coined the term trinity,he was a catholic christian,it was later in life that he left the catholic church to join the montanists. Tertullian was one of the most ardent catholic apologists to have ever lived …Tertullian "[T]his is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lists: like the church of the Smyrneans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John, like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 32:2 [A.D. 200]). |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by DeepSight(m): 6:52pm On Aug 17, 2010 |
Enigma - It seems to me you are trying to shake off the obvious: a fact which is well known: namely that the doctrine of the holy trinity was not accepted a official and standard church doctrine until Nicea. Now the fact of the matter is that the council of Nicea was convened on account of the raging controversies that had come to a head as typified by the Arian Heresy. "The Arian controversy describes several controversies related to Arianism which divided the Christian church from before the Council of Nicaea in 325 to after the Council of Constantinople in 381. The most important of these controversies concerned the relationship between God the Father and God the Son. The early history of the controversy must be pieced together from about 35 documents found in various sources. The historian Socrates of Constantinople reports that Arius first became controversial under the bishop Achillas of Alexandria, when he made the following syllogism: he said, "If the Father begat the Son, he that was begotten had a beginning of existence: and from this it is evident, that there was a time when the Son was not. It therefore necessarily follows, that he had his substance from nothing". - Wikipedia Now the fact that the son is described as "begotten" in scripture evidentially shows that the son did not always exist in the way that the Father always existed - - -> He had a beginning. Now God does not have a beginning and as such this conclusively shows that Jesus, being described as begotten of the Father, could not be God. This logic is so simple and clear that it unsettled your christian forebears so much that they found it necessary somewhere down the line to convene at Nicea to address this and other supposed "heresies." I wonder why the voice of simple logic such as that cited above must always be "heretical". I guess logic is heresy. Now for the avoidance of doubt here is what the First Council of Nicea did - The First Council of Nicaea was a council of Christian bishops convened in Nicaea in Bithynia (present-day İznik in Turkey) by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in A.D. 325. The Council was the first effort to attain consensus in the church through an assembly representing all of Christendom.[2] The leading item on the agenda of the synod was - The Arian question regarding the relationship between God the Father and Jesus; i.e. are the Father and Son one in divine purpose only or also one in being. The council ended with the adoption of the Nicene Creed which set out firmly the agreed areas of Christian Doctrine incorporating the finalized understanding and acceptance of the Holy Trinity as Follows - - We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible. - And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father. So there. |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by aletheia(m): 9:07pm On Aug 17, 2010 |
Arguments about the "Trinity" both then and now all boil down to this one question? Is Jesus God? That is the crux (pun definitely intended!) of the matter. I suppose people probably have less issues with agreeing that the Holy Spirit is God, but when it comes to the Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of God, it becomes another thing entirely. |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by Enigma(m): 9:59am On Aug 18, 2010 |
@ Deep Sight Erm . . . ok! |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by aletheia(m): 5:32pm On Aug 18, 2010 |
@Enigma: See? This conversation has become about the question: Is Jesus God? Deep Sight:Is the "logic" clear and simple? You hinge you argument on the word "begotten". Let us examine what the scriptures actually say about Jesus. KJV: John 1:1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Your misapprehension arises from the fact that you do not make the distinction between eternity and time. God dwells in eternity and is without beginning or end of days but He also descended into time at a definite point in time (a beginning) and this is alluded to in: KJV: Hebrews 1:5. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? The scriptures are clear as to the question of Jesus is God: [14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. The Word was God; The Word was made flesh. |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by Enigma(m): 5:59pm On Aug 18, 2010 |
@ aletheia It's no surprise, is it? Even on the "Is the Holy Spirit Personal and Sentient" thread, nuclearboy had pointed out this destination very early on. nuclearboy: And earlier on nuclearboy also had pointed out the aim at the Trinity more generally. nuclearboy: Interestingly, Deep Sight said above that his post had shown conclusively that Jesus is not God. What does one say to that other than to laugh? On the other thread that I mentioned, I played along for a while and when I threw down the gauntlet about what he and supporters would need to show to even begin approaching proof that the Holy Spirit is not a personal sentient being, what did they do? The same here, there is even no need to make a defence when someone says he has shown conclusively that Jesus is not God! If again I point out what he will need to do to even make a case I expect the same kind of reaction as on the other thread! @ Deep Sight I really was not going to respond beyond my last post. However, because of my response to aletheia's post I will say this to you. See, if you make an extraordinary claim and you do not realise that you would need extraordinary proof for such a claim, you are not making a good presentation of yourself at all. |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by Nobody: 2:56pm On Aug 19, 2010 |
but really the trinity is paganic. you can sight it in myths and eastern religions. |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by DeepSight(m): 8:14pm On Aug 19, 2010 |
Enigma: The word translated "only begotten" is monogenes. This same word was used by the scripture writers to refer to human children who were single children. It is thus eminently obvious that the term monogenes contains the connotation of having been brought into existence. We can go onto the etymology if you wish. Monogenes is a cumulative derivative from the Greek words ‘monos’ and ‘genos’. The word Monogenes comprises two components as stated above. Monos (mon'-os) is defined as: sole or single - alone, only. The Second component is -genos (ghen’-os) which means an offspring or kind. It is translated ‘Born’ in Acts 18:22 and 18:24. It is translated ‘offspring’ in Acts 17:28. In greek the derivative root of the term Monogenes is ‘ginomai’ - which is defined as; to cause to be ("gen"-erate or to be born)}, and thus is thus accurately rendered as ‘only begotten’. There is no doubt and no escaping the implications of the root word “gi nomai” – which has a clear indicative meaning as “to be caused, generated or born.” If Jesus was begotten, then he came into existence at a point. God, by contrast, is eternal and always existed. P.S: For Alethia please note that "begotten" here does not refer to his earthly birth - that seems to be your confusion on your last post above. @ Deep Sight I make no extra-ordinary claim. I would rather think that it is you who make a most extra-ordinary claim indeed: namely that you assert a Jewish man who lived two thousand years ago to be almighty God. I would think that is a more extra-ordinary claim than anything I have ever put forward on this forum, and certainly requires the extra-ordinary proof that you speak of. |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by Enigma(m): 8:40pm On Aug 19, 2010 |
^^^ If you think that you have proved (and "conclusively" too for that matter!) that Jesus is not God, I am happy to leave you with that thought. |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by Enigma(m): 10:09am On Aug 21, 2010 |
Now, more on the personality of the Holy Spirit. From here: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/trin04a.html The term "Holy Spirit" and "Spirit of God" (and parallel terms) appears in a wide variety of statements in the NT. In many of these statements and contexts, this term APPEARS to be denoting a fully conscious/fully personal/fully alive agent. This Agent is said to speak, warn, reveal, predict, teach, remind, enable, help, witness, testify, encourage, counsel, know, and pray. This Agent is apparently invested with active authority over the mission of God--leading, selecting workers for tasks, selecting workers for positions of authority, dispatching workers, evaluating situations, making decisions about distribution of spiritual gifts, 'steering' and directing. Even though the grammar would predict otherwise, this Agent is referred to by non-neuter personal pronouns in several situations (i.e. 'he'). Human interactions with this agent are best categorized as "inter-personal"--we can lie to the Spirit, resist Him, test Him, grieve Him (notice the inner emotional capacity of the Spirit), blaspheme Him. Christ seems to view the Spirit as a 'suitable', non-localized replacement for His earthly, localized presence among the disciples. Finally, the Spirit is used in co-ordinate statements with the other Divine Personal Agents (i.e. Father, Son) in such a way as to suggest the possession of Personality/Consciousness. |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by Enigma(m): 10:21am On Aug 21, 2010 |
From the same http://www.christian-thinktank.com/trin04a.html If the Spirit WERE not a Person, but rather a simple alternate designation for some influence of God, we WOULD NOT expect to find the following kinds of passages, in which BOTH the Spirit AND the possible influences are co-ordinately named: Granted that in some contexts, the Holy Spirit may be justifiably used to describe the power of God. |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by Enigma(m): 10:31am On Aug 21, 2010 |
One more from http://www.christian-thinktank.com/trin04a.html That the Spirit of God is DISTINCT from God the Father can also be seen by trying to 'substitute' the term 'God the Father' in all the passages in which the Holy Spirit is present. While this would not be a problem in ALL verses, in certain passages it makes no sense at all--indeed, it makes "anti-sense" of the passage. |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by Enigma(m): 10:41am On Aug 21, 2010 |
Subtle References to the Holy Spirit http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVSermons/SubtleReferencesToTheTrinity.htm Even if there did not exist passages which directly state that God is three beings who are one, there is ample evidence in the Scriptures to prove it by indirect means |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by Enigma(m): 10:55am On Aug 21, 2010 |
Finally on the personality of the Holy Spirit, this piece by Spurgeon from http://www.biblebb.com/files/spurgeon/0004.htm First, the Holy Spirit is spoken of as having understanding. |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by nuclearboy(m): 3:06pm On Aug 21, 2010 |
^^^ Caught, Killed, Skinned, Cooked and Eaten! Infact, digested! [size=4pt]But dem no go gree. Watch out - this will still be debated if not here, someplace else in another form. "And he left Him for a season". Very soon[/size] |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by vescucci(m): 4:38pm On Aug 21, 2010 |
^^^ Lol, you are really on your grind in this religion section o. You are amok |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by nuclearboy(m): 7:42pm On Aug 21, 2010 |
^^^ Guess so. Sadly though, to NO effect aside irritation for some and amusement for others. Nothing ever has effect for most people here. Most have decided what they want to "decide" and so just seek crutches to sit on. I at least can say NL has changed my mind about many issues, religious and otherwise, and broadened my horizons. I thank God for that. I think you likely are like that too and have actually corrected some issues about yourself. If right, nice but we are a pitiable minority - most people would see us as naive and/or wavering! Who is as strong as the weak that has nothing to lose? Peace, bro! |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by vescucci(m): 9:00pm On Aug 21, 2010 |
I wish I didn't agree with you completely. Luckily I rarely come here to teach anything. He whose aim is to teach will likely end up with a coronary. Even when I explain stuff according to my understanding, it's with a secret wish to have my views changed. There's nothing refreshing like disillusionment. To sum it up, the greatest asset one can have here is an open mind. |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by Enigma(m): 8:48pm On Aug 24, 2010 |
Hmmm an interesting happenstance ------- a propos the question of Jesus being "begotten" Reading the excerpted below from an old post by M_nwankwo m_nwankwo: . . . reminded me of the below from elsewhere and, in a sense, from a "different camp" From http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/nicene.htm A favorite analogy of the Athanasians was the following: Light is continuously streaming forth from the sun. (In those days, it was generally assumed that light was instantaneous, so that there was no delay at all between the time that a ray of light left the sun and the time it struck the earth.) The rays of light are derived from the sun, and not vice versa. But it is not the case that first the sun existed and afterwards the Light. It is possible to imagine that the sun has always existed, and always emitted light. The Light, then, is derived from the sun, but the Light and the sun exist simultaneously throughout eternity. They are co-eternal. Just so, the Son exists because the Father exists, but there was never a time before the Father produced the Son. The analogy is further appropriate because we can know the sun only through the rays of light that it emits. To see the sunlight is to see the sun. Just so, Jesus says, "He who has seen me has seen the Father." (John 14:9) |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by Enigma(m): 8:56pm On Aug 24, 2010 |
Can't resist one more excerpt; still from here http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/nicene.htm Arius said that if the Father has begotten the Son, then the Son must be inferior to the Father, as a prince is inferior to a king. Athanasius replied that a son is precisely the same sort of being as his father, and that the only son of a king is destined himself to be a king. It is true that an earthly son is younger than his father, and that there is a time when he is not yet what he will be. But God is not in time. Time, like distance, is a relation between physical events, and has meaning only in the context of the physical universe. When we say that the Son is begotten of the Father, we do not refer to an event in the remote past, but to an eternal and timeless relation between the Persons of the Godhead. Thus, while we say of an earthly prince that he may some day hope to become what his father is now, we say of God the Son that He is eternally what God the Father is eternally. |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by DeepSight(m): 10:57am On Aug 25, 2010 |
A favorite analogy of the Athanasians was the following: Light is continuously streaming forth from the sun. (In those days, it was generally assumed that light was instantaneous, so that there was no delay at all between the time that a ray of light left the sun and the time it struck the earth.) The rays of light are derived from the sun, and not vice versa. But it is not the case that first the sun existed and afterwards the Light. It is possible to imagine that the sun has always existed, and always emitted light. The Light, then, is derived from the sun, but the Light and the sun exist simultaneously throughout eternity. They are co-eternal. Just so, the Son exists because the Father exists, but there was never a time before the Father produced the Son. The analogy is further appropriate because we can know the sun only through the rays of light that it emits. To see the sunlight is to see the sun. Just so, Jesus says, "He who has seen me has seen the Father." (John 14:9) 1. The sun is a star: stars do not emit light at every stage of their existence: so on a physical level that kills your analogy DEAD. 2. The etymology of the word monogenes applied to Jesus also kills your analogy DEAD. You have not read or understood the etymology. 3. Light emanating from the sun is analogous to energy emanating from an entity: this would suit my description of what the holy spirit is! - namely - God's energy or will! It is altogether inappropriate for that which is said to be a personality - an individual - begotten by God! |
Re: Was The Trinity Doctrine Invented At A Council Meeting Or By The RCC? by DeepSight(m): 11:02am On Aug 25, 2010 |
Quote from: m_nwankwo on April 13, 2010, 12:06 PM Although I have the most profound respect for the views of M_Nwankwo I firmly believe it is a significant misperception to imagine that an element which is - 1. Intangible and 2. Infinite - May be "divided" or may be spoken of as having "parts." Such can only be said of finite things, and not the infinite God. At the end of the day, these notions of the Divinity of Jesus spring solely from the human instinct to deify spiritual (and sometimes political) leaders. Nothing more. PS: I hope you are aware that the adherents of the Grail Message - from which M_Nwankwo's views are sourced, also believe that the writer of the Grail Message, Mr. Abd Ru Shin - is the earthly incarnation of a being called Parsifal - who they believe is the Holy Spirit himself and part of the Trinity. Perhaps you are also willing to swallow that? 1 Like |
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