debosky:

This is laughable and shallow at best. Just what have you seen 'developing' at Utd? I remember when Arsenal won the title with the invincibles and Wenger talked of an era of dominance for Arsenal, and with Chelski's introduction everyone thought Utd's days at the peak were over. What happened? They've come back stronger, won 3 titles on the trot and a CL trophy to boot.
There is TOO MUCH quality, experience (both playing. coaching and management) and earning potential in that club for it to fall away so drastically.

Fair enough, but the core of your gist is that they've done it before and its certain that they do it again? I don't buy into that logic because it means that things will always be the same and that is the greatest untruth anyone can perpetuate. Nothing stays the same.

debosky:

It is ridiculous to assert a lack of quality in the youth ranks right now means much for the future performances - they can buy in the best young talent if needed. Secondly Arsenal's youth dominated a while back, yet practically none of them from that side have gone on to make it, indicating that youth level performance is a HIGHLY dubious measure of future senior team success.

You don't have your thinking cap on here Debo, can you tell me a more accurate metric you can use? maybe a Galactico policy perhaps but with Manure's indebtedness such an approach looks less likely by the day.

debosky:

Liverpool has been in decline since the early 90's (nearly 2 decades), how can you sanely compare them to the most successful club in the EPL's history? Liverpool's problems are numerous - they don't make enough cash AND are massively in debt with two owners clueless about footie. Utd is in a far better position and their underlying value makes them immune to Liverpool's type of problems.

Now this is utter bull, in the 2000s, Liverpool has won a UEFA cup, Champions league and some FA cups, does that look like a club that has been in decline since the early 90s. don't argue just for argument's sake. Your other points do have some elements of truism in them but yu're stretching them even further than yu claim my optimism stretches manure's imminent demise.

debosky:

This is a ridiculous comparison. If the Glazers TODAY say they want to sell, Utd will get sold for BILLIONS to some rich Arabs and will get even stronger. Liverpool has no such pull beyond HISTORY. Utd has both earning power and probably the largest fanbase in the world - there is no comparsion.

With the debt loaded on the club already, do you think all Arabs are stupid Those chaps at City know what they are doing o, don't think they are stupid for once, their monetary input goes beyond the club and into business opportunities in Manchester as a whole. It is when the keg of gunpowder explodes in Manure that people's eyes will open. City didn't have the debt that manure have now so don't equate the two.

debosky:

na wa oh. How many games has he played for Fulham again?
One sub appearance, one CC game and one league game?
Scoring against Port Vale of all teams when Fulham won 6-0? He's only scored in one EPL game and that was last week. Both goals were lucky/flukes. There is a lot of time before we can say anything about him

He has got 2 goals and 2 assists in 3 PL games for Fulham, and my point is he is an early revelation so I don't understand why you take exception to that? those goals are in no way lucky and besides you do make your luck at least that is what we are told.

The quadruple?

duduspace:

Fair enough, but the core of your gist is that they've done it before and its certain that they do it again? I don't buy into that logic because it means that things will always be the same and that is the greatest untruth anyone can perpetuate. Nothing stays the same.[

While nothing stays the same, hindsight is the best judge of the future - they have weathered virtually every storm in the league and come back stronger - I see NOTHING in your analysis to prove otherwise. Utd have never used domination as youth level to propel them to titles, except for maybe the 'first' team of kids and nothing more since then. Rooney, CR and Tevez that won their last set of CL and EPLs weren't youth players, neither was Rio, VDS or Evra. The fact is, Utd continues to attract top talent and will continue win with the best coach/coaching system in the entire league.

You don't have your thinking cap on here Debo, can you tell me a more accurate metric you can use? maybe a Galactico policy perhaps but with Manure's indebtedness such an approach looks less likely by the day.

How good was Chelski's youth when they won back to back EPLs?  

The debt has not affected their transfers in any way - it is owed by the OWNERS not by the club - their ability to compete on the market still stands.

Now this is utter bull, in the 2000s, Liverpool has won a UEFA cup, Champions league and some FA cups, does that look like a club that has been in decline since the early 90s. don't argue just for argument's sake. Your other points do have some elements of truism in them but yu're stretching them even further than yu claim my optimism stretches manure's imminent demise.

In terms of the EPL they have been in decline since the 90's - that statement stands firm. A few triumphs on the way cannot mask the decline. Failure to win your domestic league is the clearest measure of decline out htere.

With the debt loaded on the club already, do you think all Arabs are silly Those chaps at City know what they are doing o, don't think they are silly for once, their monetary input goes beyond the club and into business opportunities in Manchester as a whole. It is when the keg of gunpowder explodes in Manure that people's eyes will open. City didn't have the debt that manure have now so don't equate the two.

This is simple maths - Utd is WORTH more now that when the Glazers bought them. The debt is small compared to the overall value of the club so anyone buying them would be making a great investment. There is no keg of gunpowder to explode - they make more money than any club in England and have done so CONSISTENTLY for years.

The debt is an ownership debt, not one owed to buy players or fund stadiums or the like. Once the owner changes hands, the debt changes hands - simple. All you need is an owner with deep enough pockets (of which there are numerous). The Glazers are simply not willing to sell at the moment.

He has got 2 goals and 2 assists in 3 PL games for Fulham, and my point is he is an early revelation so I don't understand why you take exception to that? those goals are in no way lucky and besides you do make your luck at least that is what we are told.

Have you WATCHED the goals or are you just quoting stats?  

It's like saying because Koscielny managed to scramble in a goal that he's an early revelation.  

Ok - you are free to call him what you wish. As far as I'm concerned, it's been a fluke beginning which will peter out soon enough.

Enough of this - I'm done with analysing other clubs. It is our duty to PROVE on the pitch and with trophies (THIS SEASON) that we are the best. All this talk of other clubs going into demise is very boring.

debosky:

This is why some people call gooners deluded. For all your 'examples' this team has won NOTHING, even with the so called development of youth players into the mainstay of the team.

Without any trophies to show for the 'rosy future' and 'visionary strategy' yet you talk about winning the quarduple? The mind boggles.  

Maybe I need some of the ganja you're smoking bro. . . .it must be very strong stuff.  

Ogbeni, they don't need an excuse to call you deluded, or do you now believe you're deluded? Now your sense of humor seems to be deserting you, I said maybe when we win a quadruple did I give you a time scale as to when we will do that?

@duduspace,

In 2003-2004, You had a lot of youth players like Hoyte, Senderos, Lupoli, Owusu Abeyie, Aliadiere, Djourou, Flamini, Fabregas, Clichy

Yet in 2009/2010, 6-7yrs later, only 2 of them are left and a typical Lineup of Almunia, Sagna, Vermalaen, Gallas, Clichy, Fabregas, Song, Arshavin, Van persie, Nasri, Eduardo would have only 2 of those "Prodiguous" youths

What did that make you win 7yrs later and what became of these prodigous youth wenGAY was brandishing at that time

duduspace:

Ogbeni, they don't need an excuse to call you deluded, or do you now believe you're deluded? Now your sense of humor seems to be deserting you, I said maybe when we win a quadruple did I give you a time scale as to when we will do that?

Ok oh Dudu, I accept. . . .so in line with regaining my sense of humour, you might actually be referring to a time when the Emirates Cup is now called 'The Quadruple' and we win it.  

Can you give a time scale on when you think we'll win this quadruple?  

debosky:

While nothing stays the same, hindsight is the best judge of the future - they have weathered virtually every storm in the league and come back stronger - I see NOTHING in your analysis to prove otherwise. Utd have never used domination as youth level to propel them to titles, except for maybe the 'first' team of kids and nothing more since then. Rooney, CR and Tevez that won their last set of CL and EPLs weren't youth players, neither was Rio, VDS or Evra. The fact is, Utd continues to attract top talent and will continue win with the best coach/coaching system in the entire league.

How good was Chelski's youth when they won back to back EPLs?  

And how much debt did Abramovic write off to achieve that? over 500m. If you add that to the 700m manure already owe, what will remain? They might be the first big club to be ejected from European competition under the new rules if they contemplate doing that.
Your not seeing anything does not mean there isn't anything there, the more some people look, the less they see.  

debosky:

The debt has not affected their transfers in any way - it is owed by the OWNERS not by the club - their ability to compete on the market still stands.
In terms of the EPL they have been in decline since the 90's - that statement stands firm. A few triumphs on the way cannot mask the decline. Failure to win your domestic league is the clearest measure of decline out htere.

Look at this man, are you living in the past, even hard core Manure fans are now beginning to get worried with the way things went in this last transfer window, when you cut off the head of an animal you still get the odd quiver, I firmly believe Manure is headed towards serious cost cutting if not outright ruin.

debosky:

This is simple maths - Utd is WORTH more now that when the Glazers bought them. The debt is small compared to the overall value of the club so anyone buying them would be making a great investment. There is no keg of gunpowder to explode - they make more money than any club in England and have done so CONSISTENTLY for years.

The debt is an ownership debt, not one owed to buy players or fund stadiums or the like. Once the owner changes hands, the debt changes hands - simple. All you need is an owner with deep enough pockets (of which there are numerous). The Glazers are simply not willing to sell at the moment.

And which kind of debt exactly do Liverpool have again? Gerrard's debt? or ownership debt like Manure? and you claim the debt is small compared to the value of the club? how much exactly was Manure valued at last? about 1.8b GBP, lets even say 2b GBP and of which they have .7b debt, does that look small to you? How much exactly is this debt that is dragging liverpool under (less than 250m GBP)? go figure.

debosky:

Have you WATCHED the goals or are you just quoting stats?  

It's like saying because Koscielny managed to scramble in a goal that he's an early revelation.  

Ok - you are free to call him what you wish. As far as I'm concerned, it's been a fluke beginning which will peter out soon enough.

It is you who hasn't been watching his games, did you even know he had 2 assists? I just noticed a player who was having significant impact on Fulham's early season and pointed him out wondering if anyone had taken notice, you didn't exactly have to respond did you?  

debosky:

Enough of this - I'm done with analysing other clubs. It is our duty to PROVE on the pitch and with trophies (THIS SEASON) that we are the best. All this talk of other clubs going into demise is very boring.

Why do you like turning the tables? I didn't start an argument, you did by taking exceptions to what I said, if I'm giving you a black eye with the facts, its not my fault is it?  

Dudu,

Waiting for a response,

What happened to the youth of yesteryears

dayokanu:

@duduspace,

In 2003-2004, You had a lot of youth players like Hoyte, Senderos, Lupoli, Owusu Abeyie, Aliadiere, Djourou, Flamini, Fabregas, Clichy

Yet in 2009/2010, 6-7yrs later, only 2 of them are left and a typical Lineup of Almunia, Sagna, Vermalaen, Gallas, Clichy, Fabregas, Song, Arshavin, Van persie, Nasri, Eduardo would have only 2 of those "Prodiguous" youths

What did that make you win 7yrs later and what became of these prodigous youth wenGAY was brandishing at that time

Stop twisting the truth DK, in 03/04 season you mentioned we went unbeaten, even then 2 out of that lot still remain and another one of them plays for AC Milan. In 09/10 season you've forgotten that Song, Theo and Bendtner have joined the 2 who remain from that season? and this season, Gibbs and Wilshere have also joined them.
Ours is a project in the making, those 2 from 03/04 you mention are still what yu'll term young players in the grand scheme of things, nowhere near their peak yet.

You've got to give youth time to mature, in the interim while we were blooding them, our stadium debt prevented us filling the gaps adequately with enough quality in the first team, now our youth have grown and we've now got them in abundance, for each Ramsey cut down, there is a Wilshere waiting in the wings. Una go hear weeeen

^^ You had sevral youth players in 2004 and still went trophyless for half a decade after that.

What happened to the Senderos, OwusuAbeyie, lupoli, Aliadiere, Hoyte, Djourou Flamini etc of then?

Were those players not the ones to guarantee your competitiveness and winning in the 2005-2010 time frame? What happened to them

How much time do the youths of 2003 need to mature? 15yrs?

dayokanu:

^^ You had sevral youth players in 2004 and still went trophyless for half a decade after that.

What happened to the Senderos, OwusuAbeyie, lupoli, Aliadiere, Hoyte, Djourou Flamini etc of then?

Were those players not the ones to guarantee your competitiveness and winning in the 2005-2010 time frame? What happened to them

How much time do the youths of 2003 need to mature? 15yrs?

Did you read this?

duduspace:

You've got to give youth time to mature, in the interim while we were blooding them, our stadium debt prevented us filling the gaps adequately with enough quality in the first team

Therein lies your answer, meditate on it day and night and the answer will come to you. 
The important thing be say make my boys no fail my hand on Saturday or I will go on sabbatical leave from this forum like Sauron.

E jor oh. Why are we debating kenenisa bekele abi na dimbada or wtf ya'll call him here.

Debo, just pointing out something. Whether by policy change or by lack of funnds or simply by demento missing his medication, you do have to be curious about the scummie's approach to the market of late. Come on these guys didn't baulk at paying £30+m for berba. Now we are hearing about kgb cum thomas crown affair style of transfer with bebelistic. Jus wondering.

As is customary every year the boys, they ensure the retirement of a coach to a nursing home with fine gardening leaves. Seems this year we are aiming for a more brutal approach. We are driving someone the mental home. Ladies and gentlemen. Sam 'walrus' allardyce:

Ahead of his team's clash with Fulham, the 55-year-old said: "I would be more suited to Inter Milan or Real Madrid.

"It wouldn't be a problem for me to manage those clubs because I would win the double or the league every time."

Although happy in his current role, Allardyce added: "Give me Manchester United or Chelsea and I would do the same, it wouldn't be a problem.

"It's not a problem to take me into the higher reaches of the Champions League or Premier League and would make my job a lot easier in winning it."

No I didnt make it up!!!

LOL @ Allardyce.

When they gave him Newcastle, what did he do with it?

Allardyce needs Jesus!

If Avram Grant can take Chelsea to within one penalty kick of UCL, why shouldn't Sam back himself. The Bolton team of Okocha and Stelios Giannakopolis was good work by Allardyce

slimshay:

E jor oh. Why are we debating kenenisa bekele abi na dimbada or wtf ya'll call him here.

Debo, just pointing out something. Whether by policy change or by lack of funnds or simply by demento missing his medication, you do have to be curious about the scummie's approach to the market of late. Come on these guys didn't baulk at paying £30+m for berba. Now we are hearing about kgb come thomas crown affair style of transfer with bebelistic. Jus wondering.

I don retire from this argument, according to Dudu because of black eyes.  

The difference is still clear - while Utd can 'gamble' with £7m, Wenger can only gamble with Amaury Bischoff on a free.  

A team signing Smalling and Hernandez for good money can't be said to be struggling; especially since their buys of recent years are still growing into full potential, removing the need for major transfers. It would be good to note they only missed the EPL by a few points (after a 3 year winning stint) so don't expect them to be going crazy with transfers.

Yes their approach has 'changed', but they remain uber competitive - that is the key. Their approach has changed numerous times since they started dominating the EPL, but one thing remains - end product.

debosky:

I don retire from this argument, according to Dudu because of black eyes.  

The difference is still clear - while Utd can 'gamble' with £7m, Wenger can only gamble with Amaury Bischoff on a free.  

Sorry Debo, no be black eye, dat one na typo, na green eye wetin oyibo man dey call "oju kokoro" Manure deserve some respect cos they've always had results but every golden era comes to an end and methinks the agogo is sounding for them right about now.

duduspace:

Sorry Debo, no be black eye, dat one na typo, na green eye wetin oyibo man dey call "oju kokoro" Manure deserve some respect cos they've always had results but every golden era comes to an end and methinks the agogo is sounding for them right about now.

Again, no concrete basis for such thoughts. . . .they were acclaimed to be 'finished' when Arsenal and Chelski won titles between 04 and 06. They were finished when Cantona left, when Beckham left and when CR left too.

A quiet transfer season is not a pointer to much - a few years ago, Utd made ONE move and won the league the next season. When Arsenal won the league unbeaten, the main addition was Lehmann. Even the champions have been largely quiet, with only Ramirez making a splash.

Utd's ability to rejuvenate themselves time and time again is what makes them peerless in the modern era in England. I don't think they've lost any of that ability - we'll see how well they do this season.

duduspace:

Is this what I've said or the assumption you've jumped to? for the sake of clarity and making allowance for grammatical misunderstandings, here is what I mean in a nutshell. At present the quality in Manure's youth ranks is quite suspect and it doesn't bode well for their future, Arsenal are better positioned in this regards compared to them and the results in the youth ranks indicate this, if  this position doesn't change then Manure will in the near future slip out of the top 4 particularly with the HG rule coming into play and their increasingly precarious financial situation. Is that clear enough now?

No it was what you said and the assumption you jumped to, not me.

duduspace:

Why did Sauron have to run away now? his boy Morrison, was in the Manure Reserves team beaten by Aston Villa reserves 4-1 yesterday and so was Mr Bebe idi and Silvestre's nephew. I feel for Manure, they will be the next to go the way of Liverfluke, they haven't got much quality coming through the ranks (apart from Cleverley and 1 or 2 more) despite the HG rule, na only long range shots that Gibson guy sabi shoot.
I wonder how they'll excel in the future, expect to see Manure slide down as Messrs Giggs and Scholes wind up their careers, Baba Fergie might just exit with them so so as not to soil his legacy.

Your argument is pointless.
It would have even been better if you had judged with the youth team and not the reserves.
Any one can play for the reserves, hence, doesn't reflect much. For example, we won the reserves league for our section last season but that doesn't mean anything regarding to what the future holds.

You pointed out the 4-1 defeat and guesstimated that 'not much quality is coming through'.
Majority of this is simply[i] bad mind[/i] and your optimism to see United crumble which is understandable as a GAYnner.

You cant use Reserves result to extrapolate future success . . . that is my point.
For all I care the reserves can finish bottom . . . It doesn't mean a player from that team can't make it into the first team.

The results doesn't matter as much . . . it's used to breed players.

chamotex:

No it was what you said and the assumption you jumped to, not me.
Your argument is pointless.
It would have even been better if you had judged with the youth team and not the reserves.
Any one can play for the reserves, hence, doesn't reflect much. For example, we won the reserves league for our section last season but that doesn't mean anything regarding to what the future holds.

You pointed out the 4-1 defeat and guesstimated that 'not much quality is coming through'.
Majority of this is simply[i] bad mind[/i] and your optimism to see United crumble which is understandable as a GAYnner.

You cant use Reserves result to extrapolate future success . . . that is my point.
For all I care the reserves can finish bottom . . . It doesn't mean a player from that team can't make it into the first team.

The results doesn't matter as much . . . it's used to breed players.

And those 2 lines in bold are the only things I wrote abi? well you are right on one point, a lot of it is bad mind, I don't deny that, it doesn't change the fact that there is not much quality coming through Manure's youth ranks though, particularly when compared with Arsenal and with the HG rule that is bad news for Manure and one that makes me very happy.

With the HG rule, the quality of your young players becomes even more important and with the new financial rules, you just can't go about splashing the cash to overcome the negative impact of not having good young players so whichever way you look at it Manure's future doesn't look very rosy from where I stand whereas Arsenal tick all the sweet spots.

1. We have good young players coming through (Won Academy leagues back to back with different players and a Youth cup in recent times with some of those players already in the first team frame within 2 years).

2. We are now making a success of turning them into first teamers (our squad now is over 70% composed of players who came through our youth system whereas the last youth product to have been fully integrated into the first team picture at Manure is Fletcher).

3. We are still going out there to get talented youth players in their teens (Wellington and Galindo for example who will qualify as HG) while Manure is going for Bebe, Obertan and Hernandez in their 20s who will  never qualify as HG and in some cases don't really look the part.

Now fault my points with data of your own and stop repeating the mantra that because you were good yesterday, you will still be good tomorrow or better still stop the glib remarks about someone being deluded and make some sense of your own.

How market?

Singing Warren G and Nate Dogg. . . "at the Heartbreak Hotel!"

oga market is painful
funny i knew this once was going to happen it was sure when we lost that penalty
now chamakh has some knocks lets hope he can bounce back
see what kolo said when he said we have no leadership in the team. wenger runs a laissez faire sytle of play, discover urself BS
squillaci did well.

A draw is probably a fair result in the end.

duduspace:

And those 2 lines in bold are the only things I wrote abi? well you are right on one point, a lot of it is bad mind, I don't deny that, it doesn't change the fact that there is not much quality coming through Manure's youth ranks though, particularly when compared with Arsenal and with the HG rule that is bad news for Manure and one that makes me very happy.

With the HG rule, the quality of your young players becomes even more important and with the new financial rules, you just can't go about splashing the cash to overcome the negative impact of not having good young players so whichever way you look at it Manure's future doesn't look very rosy from where I stand whereas Arsenal tick all the sweet spots.

1. We have good young players coming through (Won Academy leagues back to back with different players and a Youth cup in recent times with some of those players already in the first team frame within 2 years).

2. We are now making a success of turning them into first teamers (our squad now is over 70% composed of players who came through our youth system whereas the last youth product to have been fully integrated into the first team picture at Manure is Fletcher).

3. We are still going out there to get talented youth players in their teens (Wellington and Galindo for example who will qualify as HG) while Manure is going for Bebe, Obertan and Hernandez in their 20s who will  never qualify as HG and in some cases don't really look the part.

Now fault my points with data of your own and stop repeating the mantra that because you were good yesterday, you will still be good tomorrow or better still stop the glib remarks about someone being deluded and make some sense of your own.

Story Story!!!

You are talking like Arsenal are the only players who have young talents.
Welbeck just finished playing against your team tonight . . . .Cleverley is there.
We also have youngsters like King and Kames on loan at Preston . . . . so what is your point exactly.

HG rules, HG rules blah blah blah . . . even if there is no talent, all any team has to do is to name 8 HG in the squad . . . they dont necessarily have to play. Plus Under 21's dont even count.

Like I said before, its all bad mind which is understandable because your analogy is flawed.

ritchboy:

A draw is probably a fair result in the end.

Good point!
Rozzi shoulda buried that penalty and it would have been over.
I think they actually played better with 10 men
A draw is a fair result.

Trophyless and delusional people, how market?

biolabee:

oga market is painful
funny i knew this once was going to happen it was sure when we lost that penalty
now chamakh has some knocks lets hope he can bounce back
see what kolo said when he said we have no leadership in the team. wenger runs a laissez faire sytle of play, discover urself BS
squillaci did well.

Kolo should provide that leadership in his own team and leave us alone.

We did not drop points today cos of lack of leadership. The boys played real well. We were just unfortunate.

proudly9ja:

Kolo should provide that leadership in his own team and leave us alone.

We did not drop points today cos of lack of leadership. The boys played real well. We were just unfortunate.

U dey vex o

proudly9ja:

Kolo should provide that leadership in his own team and leave us alone.

We did not drop points today cos of lack of leadership. The boys played real well. We were just unfortunate.

Another delusional statement

In the first half, Sunderland had most of the possession and were the more purposeful team and the second half was no different

biolabee:

oga market is painful
funny i knew this once was going to happen it was sure when we lost that penalty
now chamakh has some knocks lets hope he can bounce back
see what kolo said when he said we have no leadership in the team. wenger runs a laissez faire sytle of play, discover urself BS
squillaci did well.

WTF?You mean the type of leadership he's showing presently in Shitty?And what's leadership gotta do with today's game?

It hurts they equalized in the added secs of the added mins   BUT there are a lot of positives to take from this game.A midfield of Jack Wilshere and Denilson played better than what we had 11 men on the field.

Kos and Schillaci did a marvelous job( 2 new players) it was unbelievable.I think we lost it(it feels more like a loss) the moment Chamakh didn't utilize his chance and Rozzi lost from penaity( ikpeba _r) spot.

Damn i am pained right now. but kudos to the lad.

chamotex:

Good point!
Rozzi shoulda buried that penalty and it would have been over.
I think they actually played better with 10 men
A draw is a fair result.

Rosicky's lack of composure in front of goal is the one thing that has always undermined his genius.
I think Nasri was the best candidate out there to take the spot kick.

Meanwhile, i hope Cesc's injury is short-termish cos the treatment table is already looking like it could use a fifth leg.