Here we have a discussion between a Christian and a Jehovah's witness detailing their faith and believe in the Gospel of Christ.

The first few pages of discussion was a cordial presentation between Maximus69 and of each others views and understanding of the scriptures without much rebuttals. We have concluded that now, hence the thread is open to anyone who wish to scrutinize what either of us have spoken with questions and objections.

It will be nice if scriptures are freely quoted where applicable.

Thanks

shadeyinka:
Nothing yet!

Good evening.
Let me start by asking 'when God created man, where did he purposed as man's home, heaven or earth?' Psalms 115:16

Maximus69:
Good evening.
Let me start by asking 'when God created man, where did he purposed as man's home, heaven or earth?'

I didn't know you will open up so fast. I wanted the discussion to be fairly private so that there would be few interuptions and distractions.
God intended man to be on earth!

shadeyinka:

I didn't know you will open up so fast. I wanted the discussion to be fairly private so that there would be few interuptions and distractions.
God intended man to be on earth!

Don't mind any interruption or distraction, if neither you nor i give any response, they will understand that we're not ready to entertain a third party.
As for JWs, i can assure you that they'll keep to the orderliness if i hint them on what you and i agreed upon.
Please let your answers come with scriptural quotations to buttress your point as a Bible student.
For instance 'God intended man to live on earth' Psalms 37:9-11,29 Matthew 5:5!
So if that is God's purpose, then what happens when man fails to live up to God's standards as in expectations?

Maximus69:

Don't mind any interruption or distraction, if neither you nor i give any response, they will understand that we're not ready to entertain a third party.
As for JWs, i can assure you that they'll keep to the orderliness if i hint them on what you and i agreed upon.
Please let your answers come with scriptural quotations to buttress your point as a Bible student.
For instance 'God intended man to live on earth' Psalms 37:9-11,29 Matthew 5:5!
So if that is God's purpose, then what happens when man fails to live up to God's standards as in expectations?

I am not on my laptop, so it's difficult to put all scriptures. Moreover, I seldom do copy-paste hence you'll have to pardon me. If I make any statement that looks controversial and I didn't justify it with a scripture, then ask for It and I will gladly do that.

If you object to my answer then I can give you a scripture otherwise, I'll put scriptures in places I think it is necessary.

shadeyinka:

I am not on my laptop, so it's difficult to put all scriptures. Moreover, I seldom do copy-paste hence you'll have to pardon me. If I make any statement that looks controversial and I didn't justify it with a scripture, then ask for It and I will gladly do that.

If you object to my answer then I can give you a scripture otherwise, I'll put scriptures in places I think it is necessary.

Well, he promised that the holy spirit [the helper] will REMIND us all things that he taught us. John 14:26
That's why i initially said 'FACE to FACE discussion will help to notice the EVIDENCE of God's holy spirit' because as a Christian i don't need a laptop, tablet not even a Bible before quoting the words of my Master, Lord and King!

Maximus69:
Well, he promised that the holy spirit [the helper] will REMIND us all things that he taught us. John 14:26
That's why i initially said 'FACE to FACE discussion will help to notice the EVIDENCE of God's holy spirit' because as a Christian i don't need a laptop, tablet not even a Bible before quoting the words of my Master, Lord and King!

You are behind a screen you can say anything you want. No evidence to show. And by the way, satan quotes scriptures too..so Nothing is strange.

But don't let us digress. I have answered your question. Any other ?

So when man failed to live up to expectations, what did God intended doing?
I'm asking this because you said 'man has a beginning but NO end' if i get that it means man became immortal after his creation, right?
So what happens as man failed to live up to standard?

shadeyinka:

You are behind a screen you can say anything you want. No evidence to show. And by the way, satan quotes scriptures too..so Nothing is strange.

But don't let us digress. I have answered your question. Any other ?

Apology if i've typed anything bad!

Maximus69:
Apology if i've typed anything bad!

No offence taken

shadeyinka:

No offence taken

So what did God intended doing when man failed to live up to expectation as the only earthly creature made in God's image?

Maximus69:
So what did God intended doing when man failed to live up to expectation as the only earthly creature made in God's image?

I am not sure I understand your question?

shadeyinka:

I am not sure I understand your question?

OK,
God intended that man live on earth, but man failed to live up to expectation,
The question is 'what was God's next line of action after man disappointed him?'

Tomorrow is Monday and work begins, perhaps we continue some other convenient times!
What do you think?
But don't forget the question.
God made earth man's home, man ruined his chances to maintain the gift, of course God got annoyed. So what did God later intended to do with man and the earth?

Maximus69:
OK,
God intended that man live on earth, but man failed to live up to expectation,
The question is 'what was God's next line of action after man disappointed him?'

The question is still ambiguous based on the nature of God.

God knows the future from the beginning. Hence He doesn't react to present events.

God deliberatly planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden.
God knew they were going to fall even before God made anything.

What do you think?

shadeyinka:

The question is still ambiguous based on the nature of God.

God knows the future from the beginning. Hence He doesn't react to present events.

God deliberatly planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden.
God knew they were going to fall even before God made anything.

What do you think?

Hmmm, i don't think he knows all that from the beginning! Because he is holy[1Peter 1:16] and that means there is no evil thoughts running in his mind[Matthew 5:28] All he intended was GOOD! Genesis 1:31
Later his earthly creatures {influenced by an unseen intelligent spirit being} started misusing the gift of FREEWILL he gave them [tree of knowledge of good and bad] Noticed that his heart was troubled after all that, surely he couldn't have planned what will later caused him such pains! Genesis 6:6 compared to Psalms 78:41
So i don't think it was a deliberate act!

Maximus69:
Hmmm, i don't think he knows all that from the beginning! Because he is holy[1Peter 1:16] and that means there is no evil thoughts running in his mind[Matthew 5:28] All he intended was GOOD! Genesis 1:31
Later his earthly creatures {influenced by an unseen intelligent spirit being} started misusing the gift of FREEWILL he gave them [tree of knowledge of good and bad] Noticed that his heart was troubled after all that, surely he couldn't have planned what will later caused him such pains! Genesis 6:6 compared to Psalms 78:41
So i don't think it was a deliberate act!

Are you saying God doesn't know the future from the beginning?

shadeyinka:

Are you saying God doesn't know the future from the beginning?

The Bible made it clear that he LATER started making use of his ability to foresee the outcome of events AFTER the event in Eden. Genesis 3:
But from the beginning, he didn't intended doing so, that was what caused him so much pain!

shadeyinka:

Are you saying God doesn't know the future from the beginning?

I take that you mean God doesn't know the end from the beginning
BUT for my answer

Yes God knows the future from the beginning
Rev 13:8:
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Adam and Eve were not even created from the foundation of the world when MY name was written in the book of life

shadeyinka:

I take that you mean God doesn't know the end from the beginning
BUT for my answer

Yes God knows the future from the beginning
Rev 13:8:
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Adam and Eve were not even created from the foundation of the world when MY name was written in the book of life

Hmmm, let's leave that for now so as not to digress from the main point.
So do you think God deliberately planned everything from the beginning in order to give many a bad destiny and few a good destiny?

Maximus69:
Hmmm, let's leave that for now so as not to digress from the main point.
So do you think God deliberately planned everything from the beginning in order to give many a bad destiny and few a good destiny?

Of cause. God deliberatly planned everything from the beginning.

But did God plan it to give some people bad destiny? No!
2Pet 3:9:
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Volition must be tested! We choose by our freewill either to be dependent on God or to be independent from Him.

God planted the tree of the Knowledge of good and evil in the garden (it wasn't satan that planted it). Why would God plant that which will cause sorrow to man in the garden?

The bible says God made ALL things for His pleasure Rev4:11

Human beings are made to be Gods children. The earth is just a place of selection (goats Vs sheep/ tare Vs wheat). God gave us Volition/freewill to choose either to be dependent on Him or to be independent of Him.

Mat 25:32-34:
"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

If it (the kingdom and separation) was prepared from the foundation of the world, certainly God deliberatly planned everything.

shadeyinka:

Of cause. God deliberatly planned everything from the beginning.

But did God plan it to give some people bad destiny? No!
2Pet 3:9:
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Volition must be tested! We choose by our freewill either to be dependent on God or to be independent from Him.

God planted the tree of the Knowledge of good and evil in the garden (it wasn't satan that planted it). Why would God plant that which will cause sorrow to man in the garden?

The bible says God made ALL things for His pleasure Rev4:11

Human beings are made to be Gods children. The earth is just a place of selection (goats Vs sheep/ tare Vs wheat). God gave us Volition/freewill to choose either to be dependent on Him or to be independent of Him.

Mat 25:32-34:
"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

If it (the kingdom and separation) was prepared from the foundation of the world, certainly God deliberatly planned everything.

Good morning Sir, i slept off after waiting too long for your response.
Well, My own understanding of each word differs from yours and i'll base everything on my personal comprehensive perspective correlating all scriptures with regards to one adjective HOLY!
Holiness could be defined as a perfect mindset of a personality with PURE thoughts, NO evil!
So based on that perspective, i believe God never planned to punish anyone of his children be it his spirit sons [angels] or earthly children [humans] from the start! Jeremiah 7:31
The tree of knowledge of good and evil symbolises God's right to RULE his creatures despite giving them freewill which is not absolute! Jeremiah 10:23
Another word that i got it's meaning different from yours is 'foundation of the world' Matthew 25:34
It symbolises the beginning of rebellion against God, that was when God first introduced CURSES which was never a virtuous act if we think of HOLINESS! Genesis 3
Regarding the writing of NAMES in the book of life, God never wrote anybody's name when the first three rebels start off with their evil inclinations, but that was when God promised that there would be humans who will join in that rebellion as part of the seed of the Serpent[Satan] Genesis 3:15 Compared to John 8:44
And FEW humans who will stick to God's sovereignty which will eventually be laid on earth by God's heavenly organization[the woman] whose first child happens to be Jesus[a spirit son of God that came in the flesh] Revelations 12:5-7 compared to John 1:14
Whoever joins Jesus as his disciple has the chance of been part of the first set of the woman's children! Revelations 12:17
Of course names were written but literally speaking that process began when Jesus started his ministry on earth, only those who listens and obey him could have their names WRITTEN in the book of life! Revelations 20:15 compared to Malachi 3:16-18
If you carefully consider Malachi's prophesy, you'll notice that God started watching those who will gain everlasting life NOT from the beginning of creation. But from a time when people will be discussing about him one with his neighbour! Actually this was what Jesus[God's only begotten son] came to establish as Christianity[preaching and teaching one another about God's righteous standards from house to house,one on one] Matthew 10:11-15, 28:19-20

Maximus69:
Good morning Sir, i slept off after waiting too long for your response.

I'm so sorry.
I thought I responded quick enough but you weren't online. In fact I had to edit the post by embelishing it with bolded characters and text formattings well after.

We'll continue anything you have time. I like the cordiality with which bible truths are revealed through questions and answers.

Whenever your questions are through, I will also ask mine. I will be waiting for your response to my last post
Shalom

shadeyinka:

I'm so sorry.
I thought I responded quick enough but you weren't online. In fact I had to edit the post by embelishing it with bolded characters and text formattings well after.

We'll continue anything you have time. I like the cordiality with which bible truths are revealed through questions and answers.

Whenever your questions are through, I will also ask mine. I will be waiting for your response to my last post
Shalom

It's not to be one sided, so i'll like to entertain a question from you too!

Another word that we got different meanings to is 'THE WORLD'
This means people who have alienated themselves or were deceived to be alienated from God! Of course God still love them, that is why Jesus was sacrificed to redeem mankind! John 3:16
These two sets of humans have different mindsets. The first are people who deliberately chose not to give anyone [even God] the right to decide for them, many of them have been taught either orally or by bad experience to think that 'God doesn't exist'. Therefore whenever they hear the title 'God' they attribute it to a deceitful scheme by humans to gain control over them!
The second set are people who wants to obey God but have been blinded by Satan's manipulations [false religion]. Many of this ones truthfully feels the need for divine guidance but they've been misinformed regarding the personality and attributes of God.
None of all those who ever lived on this planet successfully and completely broke free from these two groups! That is why Jesus said we must follow him STEP by STEP to escape Satan's traps! John 8:28
Hence Jesus said 'all those who lived before John aren't yet certified for the Kingdom[everlasting life] but only those who have learnt how to beat all Satan's tactics from no other teacher but Master Jesus himself' Matthew 11:11

Maximus69:
Good morning Sir, i slept off after waiting too long for your response.
Well, My own understanding of each word differs from yours and i'll base everything on my personal comprehensive perspective correlating all scriptures with regards to one adjective HOLY!
Holiness could be defined as a perfect mindset of a personality with PURE thoughts, NO evil!

HOLY/Holiness means Sacredness or Separated

Strong’s Definitions
קֹדֶשׁ qôdesh, ko'-desh; from H6942; a sacred place or thing; rarely abstract, sanctity:—consecrated (thing), dedicated (thing), hallowed (thing), holiness, (× most) holy (× day, portion, thing), saint, sanctuary.

I do not agree with your definition because holiness from God's point of view isn't measured in terms of perfect mindset or pure thoughts or no evil. If God kills a whole community of women, children, old and young, is He evil? ref Sodom and Gomorrah! God cannot do evil: it is impossible even if he destroys the whole world. You have looked as holiness only with respect of what a holy human being should be.

Do you think God killing the first born sons of the Egyptians is unholy? Your definition is very narrow!

Maximus69:

So based on that perspective, i believe God never planned to punish anyone of his children be it his spirit sons [angels] or earthly children [humans].

The angels who left their first estate had been reserved in everlasting chains...

Jud 1:6: "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

Do you have an argument against this? The bible says "God is actually punishing some spirits until today and it will continue into the future". That doesn't fit the picture of a loving God you painted.

God is LOVE but He is also a consuming FIRE!

Maximus69:

The tree of knowledge of good and evil symbolises God's right to RULE his creatures despite giving them freewill which is not absolute! Jeremiah 10:23

Are you sure that is the symbolic meaning of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Jer10:23 has nothing to do with the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

The symbolic meaning is:
That which makes man self sufficient (not needing God for direction or instructions).

Gen 3:5: "For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Gen 3:6: "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise , she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

As gods man was to chart his own parallel government different from that of God.

Does this make any sense to you?

Maximus69:

Another word that i got it's meaning different from yours is 'foundation of the world' Matthew 25:34
It symbolises the beginning of rebellion against God, that was when God first introduced CURSES which was never a virtuous act if we think of HOLINESS! Genesis 3

You have to read the Scriptures in context. The foundation not the world has nothing to do with rebellion but creation.
Mat 25:34:
"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

The normal usage of the phrase does not imply "foundation of sin/rebellion!" It connotes begining of creation. The other meaning for the world are
1. PEOPLE/HUMANS
2. EARTH (this world is beautifully designed)
3. SINNERS

Even If I bend to your (wrong definition of beginning of rebellion), the scripture is still perfect. It means that by the time of Adam and Eve's fall, God has written my name in the book of Life!

Do you still disagree with this?

Maximus69:

Regarding the writing of NAMES in the book of life, God never wrote anybody's name when the first three rebels start off with their evil inclinations, but that was when God promised that there would be humans who will join in that rebellion as part of the seed of the Serpent[Satan] Genesis 3:15 and FEW humans who will stick to God's sovereignty which will eventually be laid on earth by God's heavenly organization[woman] whose first child happens to be Jesus[a spirit son of God that came in the flesh] Revelations 12:5-7 compared to John 1:14
Whoever joins Jesus as his disciple has the chance of been part of the first set of the woman's children! Revelations 12:17
Of course names were written but literally speaking that process began when Jesus started his ministry on earth, only those who listens and obey him could have their names WRITTEN in the book of life! Revelations 20:15 compared to Malachi 3:16-18

I don't know where you got this (probably from watchtower organisation)
Can you please briefly support these with explanations and scriptures
1. Three rebels who started their evil inclination!
2. When God promised that some humans will join the rebellion as part of the seed of satan!
3. Gods heavenly organisation who's child happens to be Jesus

You ended up saying names were written (not from the beginning of rebellion as you claimed) but after Jesus started His ministry on earth. Can you please reconcile?

Maximus69:

If you carefully consider Malachi's prophesy, you'll notice that God started watching those who will gain everlasting life NOT from the beginning of creation. But from a time when people will be discussing about him one with his neighbour! Actually this was what Jesus[God's only begotten son] came to establish as Christianity[preaching and teaching one another about God's righteous standards from house to house,one on one] Matthew 10:11-15, 28:19-20

I think you first need to reconcile the "beginning of rebellion" as "foundation of the world" AND "time of Jesus ministry" as "foundation of the world".
I am sure Malachi didn't contradict a direct scripture.

Don't forget that Jesus himself spoke this:

Mat 25:32-34:
"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"
And for reference:
Rev 13:8:
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Maximus69:
Another word that we got different meanings to is 'THE WORLD'
This means people who have alienated themselves or were deceived to be alienated from God! Of course God still love them, that is why Jesus was sacrificed to redeem mankind! John 3:16
These two sets of humans have different mindsets. The first are people who deliberately chose not to give anyone [even God] the right to decide for them, many of them have been taught either orally or by bad experience to think that 'God doesn't exist'. Therefore whenever they hear the title 'God' they attribute it to a deceitful scheme by humans to gain control over them!
The second set are people who wants to obey God but have been blinded by Satan's manipulations [false religion]. Many of this ones truthfully feels the need for divine guidance but they've been misinformed regarding the personality and attributes of God.
None of all those who ever lived on this planet successfully and completely broke free from these two groups! That is why Jesus said we must follow him STEP by STEP to escape Satan's traps! John 8:28
Hence Jesus said 'all those who lived before John aren't yet certified for the Kingdom[everlasting life] but only those who have learnt how to beat all Satan's tactics from no other teacher but Master Jesus himself' Matthew 11:11

I have given shades of definition of the WORLD in the above post.

You have defined the World here as SINNERs. This is OK as one of the definition of the World.

1Jn 2:15-16: "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

The world in this context is however not SINNERS! The world had at least three shades of meaning.

@Bolded

Mat 11:11: "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

Jesus was simply saying that:
John the Baptist (Holy and Revered) is the greatest amongst humans born up to that time (A perfect servant of God)
BUT
He who is LEAST in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than John

The Question is, which kingdom of Heaven is Jesus speaking about?

There are two definitions:
1. The Present Kingdom of Heaven (Reconning of Men by God)

Luk 17:21: "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."


Mat 5:19: "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Mat 21:43 : "Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

This kingdom looks at who you are in relation to God.

To those who believe on His name, He gave the right to become Gods Children. This can only happen after Christ and not before.

John 1:12-13:
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God , even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

2. The Literal Future Kingdom of heaven
[b] Mat 8:11: "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven."
[/b]
To me , I real that the Kingdom of God being spoken of by Jesus is the first kind.

Maximus69:
It's not to be one sided, so i'll like to entertain a question from you too!

After we conclude on issues raised.

shadeyinka:


I have given shades of definition of the WORLD in the above post.

You have defined the World here as SINNERs. This is OK as one of the definition of the World.

1Jn 2:15-16: "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

The world in this context is however not SINNERS! The world had at least three shades of meaning.

@Bolded

Mat 11:11: "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."

Jesus was simply saying that:
John the Baptist (Holy and Revered) is the greatest amongst humans born up to that time (A perfect servant of God)
BUT
He who is LEAST in the kingdom of Heaven is greater than John

The Question is, which kingdom of Heaven is Jesus speaking about?

There are two definitions:
1. The Present Kingdom of Heaven (Reconning of Men by God)


This kingdom looks at who you are in relation to God.

To those who believe on His name, He gave the right to become Gods Children. This can only happen after Christ and not before.

John 1:12-13:
"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God , even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

2. The Literal Future Kingdom of heaven
[b] Mat 8:11: "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven."
[/b]
To me , I real that the Kingdom of God being spoken of by Jesus is the first kind.

Thanks for expressing your own viewpoints regarding those scriptural texts!
Well it's obvious our views totally differs from one another but that doesn't stop us from considering each others viewpoints later to correlate it with the whole concept .
OK, now it's your turn for questioning please one at a time!

Maximus69:
Thanks for expressing your own viewpoints regarding those scriptural texts!
Well it's obvious our views totally differs from one another but that doesn't stop us from considering each others viewpoints later to correlate it with the whole concept .
OK, now it's your turn for questioning please one at a time!

But I asked a few questions in each of my posts. Maybe we should start from there

shadeyinka:

After we conclude on issues raised.

NO! I don't think that is necessary since it's not in one day that each of us accumulated what we're saying now.
It will take a longer time to conclude and that is based on what each person has resolved in his heart. Remember it is not a CHALLENGE but a tactful discuss on how far each person is able to correlate what he has read in the Bible from Genesis to Revelations and of what benefit is it to those we're sharing our views!
The motive of this is to share thoughts and leave each person with his conscience to resolve in his heart whether what he is hearing is worthwhile. We're not to force our PERSONAL resolve on each other!

shadeyinka:

But I asked a few questions in each of my posts. Maybe we should start from there

That is why i said ONE question at a time! To help in treating one issue and not digress!
So which question would you like me to address first?