Joagbaje:


Firstly , what is falsehood .The fact that we don't agree on every doctrine should not make me call you false. Division in the body of christ is satins strategy, and many so called Christians are playing into his hand. There are a thousand and one doctrinal differences . But we ought to accept one another provideded we are born again.

In one churches like assemblies or deeper life , it is wrong for men and women to sit together . But in CEC , house on the rock , they sit together. In one church , they can't shake hands with opposite gender, in another they not only shake hands they hug . Some even do holy kiss.( on the cheek) while to some it's abomination. All these differences have been there from the beginning of the church. Some eat all things , some don't.

OLAADEGBU:

Are you sure about what you claimed in the highlighted part above or you are mixing it up with your background church (CCC)?

But talking about the body of christ ,What do we do? Two things . We pray and we teach the truth.then leave the rest for God. Jesus knows what to do in his body . In our bid to take laws into our hand . We work against christ himself. And destroy the body we feel we are protecting.  Jesus gave us clear outline here.

The bible says every body should be persuaded in his own mind. Why will you condemn someone for his persuasion in the Word? let the master judge him. Can we escape God?

Joagbaje:

The bible talks about false teachers and false brethren coming into the body of christ. They are  individuals that Satan lay hold on in the church. To penetrate and poison the body with polutions. These individuals will attack structures in the church, speak against men of God , try to win peoples approval by claiming they are fighting for the masses. .

2 Peter 2:1-3
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Jesus had laid structures in his body, but these individuals will go against such word based structures and thereby deny his lordship by rejecting the authority of the word. throu

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of

These are individuals that brings public shame to the body of christ. They will have no respect for authorities in the church.

2 Peter 2:10-13
10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous[ are they], selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. [/b]11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

They say evil things about what they don't understand

12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, [b]speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;


The first sign of these self acclaimed false teachers is attack against Gods ordained institution in the body of christ by speaking evil of ministers of God. And such take delight in making mockery of spiritual things .

Jude 1:16-19
16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling[ words], having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

No, there is no false church but there can be false doctrine and false brethren in the church. And the word of God has rules  .

Firstly , what is falsehood .The fact that we don't agree on every doctrine should not make me call you false. Division in the body of christ is satins strategy, and many so called Christians are playing into his hand. There are a thousand and one doctrinal differences . But we ought to accept one another provideded we are born again.

In one churches like assemblies or deeper life , it is wrong for men and women to sit together . But in CEC , house on the rock , they sit together. In one church , they can't shake hands with opposite gender, in another they not only shake hands they hug . Some even do holy kiss.( on the cheek) while to some it's abomination. All these differences have been there from the beginning of the church. Some eat all things , some don't.

Romans 14:1-6
1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye,[ but] not to doubtful disputations. 2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. 4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. 5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day[ alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth[ it] unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard[ it]. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

So on what ground do we call someone false? By our limited knowledge or by the word. And if we believe a minister has false doctrine  . Our first responsibility is prayer to get him out of the mess. And if we have opportunity. We share with him in love to see the errors . Just like  was corrected by pricsilla and her husband acquila (acts18:24-26). And we don't correct with insults and abuses . Because if you become judgemental , you set a trap for yourself.

James 3:1
1 Dear brothers, don't be too eager to tell others their faults, for we all make many mistakes; and when we teachers of religion, who should know better, do wrong, our punishment will be greater than it would be for others.

Fowl language against the church, or ministers is a big  error. "despising dominion" right from Old Testament to the new. Not even ministers alone . Even brethren . You don't call Gods people a name their father has not called them. That doesn't make us more spiritual. Your spirituality is first evident in your speech.

That is the error some posters here have entered without knowing.

James 3:9-16
9 Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God. 10 Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. 11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet[ water] and bitter? 12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so[ can] no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. 13 Who[ is] a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. 14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. 15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but[ is] earthly, sensual, devilish. 16 For where envying and strife[ is], there[ is] confusion and every evil work

The bible says every body should be persuaded in his own mind. Why will you condemn someone for his persuasion in the Word? let the master judge him. Can we escape God?

If there are  false ministers , God says we should not listen to them.especially if he contradicts Pauls teachings. Paul says the curse of God will be on the fellow. Not my curse or abuse not Kunle curse. How I'm I certain I'm right in the first place to judge and condemn a minister whom God has accepted. Those who do such only prove that they are children in spiritual understanding. Our first duty is to pray against such evil doctrine.

It is against the rules even in evangelism to attack other faiths and especially, the leaders. When you communicate truth without the spirit of love , you've lost it,  

But talking about the body of christ ,What do we do? Two things . We pray and we teach the truth.then leave the rest for God. Jesus knows what to do in his body . In our bid to take laws into our hand . We work against christ himself. And destroy the body we feel we are protecting.  Jesus gave us clear outline here.

Matthew 13:24-30
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

I think this scripture is more than enough for everyone of us.

Joagbaje:

Maybe I'm wrong . But when I attended deeper life breifly in the 80s I've forgotten the particar year. it was the year the name of the church was changed . Male and female used to sit differently, no dancing in worship etc. But I won't be surprised if that has changed now. Afterall the members now are allowed to have television now. I was glad when I saw pastor kumuyi on tv . And that's really my point .it is christ that does this things by the hlyghost. As we pray for ministers and churches . The holy spirit begins to take away the doctrines that are not word based.

Joagbaje:

^^^^
Sorry o. But you know it wasnt speculation. I was just making an illustration. But I wish we can leave the petty things of the post and focus on the big picture being communicated.

OLAADEGBU:

Maybe you're wrong? Wouldn't it be wise to find out the truth regarding your claims instead of speculating and assuming what you know little or nothing about?

The bible talks about false teachers and false brethren coming into the body of christ.  These individuals will attack structures in the church, speak against men of God, try to win peoples approval by claiming they are fighting for the masses.
deny his lordship by rejecting the authority of the word.
These are individuals that brings public shame to the body of christ. They will have no respect for authorities in the church.They say evil things about what they don't understand

JeSoul:

 
Q1: How do you determine which ministers/pastors/preachers etc are really "ordained of God"? The bible speaks of satan taking the form of an angel of light.

Jesus also spoke of how many will come to Him on the last day claiming to have performed miracles and signs in His name - Jesus said He never knew them.

Jesus also spoke about "great leaders/teachers" leading many astray - [/color]

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Mt 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths

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Based on the above, will you agree that it is possible that of the many world-known preachers/pastors (both Naija and abroad) some could be false and of the devil? And if this is possible to you, would you speak out against them if you knew of them?

Q2: Related to Q1. How do you seperate a false brother from a brother who is speaking out against falsehood? Because both would appear to be "causing division in the church" or "speaking against men of God", how do you know the difference as Jesus Himself could have been accused of causing division in the "church" by challenging the Pharisees and other accepted leaders of the time.

Q3: Jesus is famous for using scathing words against the Pharisees on a few occasions - calling them white-washed tombs, brood of vipers/serpents, blind guides etc also some of the NT writers had strong words for false teachers. Going by your submission above, do you see any instance in our time where the need for strong scathing language against the false leaders would arise? Since Jesus and the early leaders actively did it?[/

I'm sure many will agree there is the need to communicate the truth with love. And this bounces back to my Q3 - 
Q4 - Jesus once angrily turned over the tables at the temple and drove the traders out with a whip. Paul asked his congregation once if they prefered he'd come with love or a whip. Is there any instance to you where not only love is necessary, but also harsh and strongly-worded delivery like Jesus and Paul?
 Thanks so far Jo!

seyibrown:

1. How do we know someone is preaching the TRUTH?

2. What about teachings that justify 'unholiness' on the basis of the 'needs of the flesh' and take the focus way on following the 'spirit'?

3.How do we go about pointing out that that teaching is not of the 'spirit' but of the flesh to prevent christians from going astray without offending the preacher who feels 'persuaded by the word of God' about his teaching?

4. Is it wrong to point out that a teacher's persuasion is wrong based on our own persuasion on matters where the teacher directly or indirectly encourages 'unholiness' ? If it is wrong to point out, How do we approach such things without being labelled as speaking against men of God?

Joagbaje:

God didn't give us such responsibility to be searching for false ministers. He gave us the responsibility of reaching the sinners for him. But the issue of false ministers is only relative to your personal Christian life . Just incase one comes your way.who should you receive ? We should you listen to? . He didn't say we should go about hunting  for them. That's the error of many today. Theyve left the primary assignment of the church. And incidentally wrongly accuse innocent people many times Just because of doctrinal differences.

That doesn't make them false ministers. We have to be clear on this issue.  The fact that they cast out devils means they are genuine Christians. You can't cast out devils if you are not of him.

Mt 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

The passage is not for the church. This is for the tribulation saints among the Jews who are still awaiting their Jewish messiah ( the christ) satan will sent to them other false christs as the messiah .The church would have Been raptured before they are made manifest . The Antichrist and the reminat of Israel . Which is what he refered to as THE ELECT. Not the church. But of the Jews during tribulation.

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths" ------------- Based on the above, will you agree that it is possible that of the many world-known preachers/pastors (both Naija and abroad) some could be false and of the devil? And if this is possible to you, would you speak out against them if you knew of them?

Paul had issues with many philosophers and speakers in his days. He's not talking about ministers of Jesus . But rather warning tímothy against the attitude of brethren who may soon reject Timothy teaching and follow philosophers who teach in the theatres. 

No matter the intention , no one has right to cause division in the church. If there is any issue, especially in a local church. You simply go to the pastor. For clarification. If he refuse to see things your way, you pull out to a ministry where your soul is blessed. (that's if you are right).

Some churches wash feet, some believe it's wrong. Some even baptise for the dead. So if the practice there is contrary to your convictions . You should leave quietly . I have left some churches quietly till I found my place. And the fact that I may not be satisfied with some practises does not make them false.  They only walked in the little light they had. I embrace the greater light. And I have been blessed by 1or2 things there which i should be grateful for.But I don't have right to pollute another mans sheep. Because they call the name of christ their.  This is why some churches divide over doctrines. I  rather labour in prayer. To end wrong doctrines.

I was once  a member of CHURCH OF GOD MISSION. I even enrolled in the bible school ALL. NATIONS FOR CHRIST BIBLE INSTITUTE.   I had to do industrial attachment in a church. So I did my I.T in LAST DAYS MESSANGERS MISSION. one of the churches they call "holiness church" because they tie scarf , no make up etc.  I handled the youth there and few occasion, the pastor gave me opportunity to minister whenever he travels. I once asked a sister why she doesn't wear make up . She said " our church no go gree"  I asked if she likes it, she said yes! . I asked the pastor later. Why those who like make up can't do it. He said he doesn't have anything against it but it's the system.

My point is , in the few opportunity the man  granted me which I was grateful for. I never once took advantage to poison the members against their system. The little discussion I had , I told the pastor myself.  So that the spirit of God will not start resisting me. There is orderly way to do things in Gods kingdom . He doesn't need radicals to change things. He us the holy spirit he knows what to do. Doctrines in churches have been changing over the years. We shouldn't do the job of holyspirit .

Jesus was anointed messiah and apostle , not a church member. Rebuke comes from top down . Nit from down up. We can air own opinions if there's forum for it but not in insults and curses and abuses. This is satanic.

JeSoul:

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Q1: How much (to use a rather strong word) 'perversion' of doctrine does a minister have to display in order to be considered false?

[/quote]  

[quote]If a preacher consistently gets issues wrong, isn't it safe to say he has no idea what christianity is in the first place?[/color]

 Q2: Do you believe the devil's agents can also perform miracles? How does this affect your reply above? Does the fact that a person can perform miracles certify them as genuine christians? Do you believe a person can claim to be performing in the name of Jesus but infact be performing by the power of the devil?

nwakaibe:

@OLAADEGBU
While in secondary school in 80's, Deeper Life opened in my village. Men and women sat on different sides of the church. I attended one of the December retreats of Deeper Life in Calabar, brothers and sisters sat differently. but I was surprised on watching the deeper channel (satellite tv) and seeing male and female seated together. So there is no mix up. So of us didn't know when the system changed.

OLAADEGBU:

To the best of my knowledge there has not been any rule as to the sitting arrangements of the different sexes and if there where any at all it might have been that they attended the Search the Scriptures separately (as sisters are being taught by sisters and brothers by brothers) and both sets meet up again in the main auditorium for the Sunday sermon otherwise nothing stops them sitting together, husband and wife for instance. But I know this is not the case in worship houses such as the CCC or Mosques.

nuclearboy:

@Jo:

Over and over, you have said myself and Kunle are not Christians. Yet above you say once a man says Jesus is his Lord, he is Christian. And I know you have read us both claim Christ as our Lord.

Does this not smack of dishonesty in you?

So of us didn't know when the system changed

nuclearboy:

I know an amazingly large number of NL members due to business but of recent have made acquaintance of some of the people that I have respect for most and they usually are found in this section.

Jo, I would wish to meet you but I wonder just how sincere you are with this capability to turn everything upside down. Here you have again said you only said we don't act like christians.

WHO are YOU to judge, Jo, based on your own words? Up above, you have told us how a servant should be left to his master. So what gave you power to judge the "motives", "ideas" and "perceptions of my actions?

So again, I ask you, do you not see the duplicity in your actions? For as Image123 earlier said (and edited out), everything you try to protect in pastor chris is what you blame in others. Consider ESPECIALLY the Apostle James. And lets leave naira, income and bread, your guy has nothing on that revered and SCRIPTURE CONFIRMED Servant of God.

Joagbaje:

@nuclearboy
I didn't say you are not Christians, and I didn't say you are either. I said you guys don't act like Christians . I don't have right to say someone is not Christian until I know what he believes.

Joagbaje:

@kunleoshob , well seem very obvious youre not born again there will be no need to give any response since you may not have the facility in you to understand. But if you ask intelligent question , I will gladly enlighten you. . . .

Joagbaje:

All you guys need is to get born again first. It will end your Judas kind od anger against giving to God. No explaination can suffice. until you become a new creature ,understainding will come to your hearts. . . .

Joagbaje:

The bible is clear on how to know false teachers etc : it has to do with their doctrine of salvation what do they profess. Who is christ to you. You are the one acting like a false teacher. You don't have a pastor , You can't understand spiritual things until you're born again ,come out of whatever unspiritual religious organisation .join a living church and submit yourself to a pastor.

Joagbaje:

@ viaro and Altheia , The anti faith websites you guys are visiting has clouded your mind from the truth. Those websites are Satanic, false brethren. . . .

Joagbaje:

You are more than a spy. you are a "false brethren". If you can ridicle a church you attend , publicly. what are you still doing there? If you dont belive in what they do , go somewhere esle. . . .

Joagbaje:

What a shame, doing dectective work to ridicle the house of God.  And you guys are applauding such. . . .

They should have caught the false brethren and beat the demon out of him! I trust Paul , After suffering fro false brethren like this, If he catch you??.

Joagbaje:

@ Enigma
I cant discuss certain issues with you for now until you recieve the infilling of the holyghost.

Joagbaje:

Where do I star from with you guys; The kingdom of God is here now .  We are in the kingdom. When you get born again. you will join us in this Kingdom!!

Joagbaje:

The maggots you vommit only shows the nature of you spirit, you need the real salvation. . . .  We shall help if you allow.

Joagbaje:
. . .
You that has not recieved the holyghost is the one its talking about here. We have the power of the holyghost backing our gospel with signs and wonders. " Not in words like people like you but in power" .Its so amazing that a religious fellow who hasnt recieved the holyspirit nor know him will be accusing someone who demonstrates the power of the spirit  of denial of the power!. . .

Joagbaje:

. . . The bible foretold about false apostles and prophets.bible also is clear on how to know them. So we first have to identify if this man was a man of God, or some imitators. There is difference when a man of God makes mistake and when a crook is on rampage. But we still leave all for God in prayer. Because of the name of christ. . . .

There are false brethren , (i just hope youre not one of "em ) there are fasle prophets and apostle. We only have right to handle them scripturaly.Jesus recognise that Satan may send pollution to his work. But he warns us against rash stupidity , because in the attempt to root out the wrong ones, you destroy the faith of others especially on the Internet. How will Tudor get saved? By Reading posts like yours? See what jesus said:

Matthew 13:24-30
24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
. . .