solite3:
well, muttley the witch of Endor wasnt a scammer

[img]https://s1/images/MuttAmin.gif[/img]
You made me laugh solite3

solite3:
at least the bible never said so.

There are a lot things the bible never said so solite3. Fyi, and like for example, the bible never said the Godhead is trinity but it is doctrine, a belief held and taught by the Church lol. The term "rapture" is used nowhere in the Bible, but it is a doctrine, a belief held and taught by the Church, lol

solite3:
Demon spirit recognise the truth, for example they knew who Jesus was and called him so until Jesus silence them, in the same vein, they must have know that God had rejected saul and only rebroadcasted what samuel said when he was alive which saul already knew.

All this is besides the point and not related to that question you avoided to answer, about whether or not a non believer can cast out a devil and/or demons in the name of Jesus or not

solite3:
well, muttley the witch of Endor wasnt a scammer atleast the bible never said so. Demon spirit recognise the truth, for example they knew who Jesus was and called him so until Jesus silence them, in the same vein, they must have know that God had rejected saul and only rebroadcasted what samuel said when he was alive which saul already knew.

Actually, the medium of Endor was a con-woman. Everyone who claims any ability to contact the dead is playing a con. No one can contact or bring up the dead except the Lord Himself. Not even Satan can mess with Sheol. In fact, all rebel angels are afraid of the Abyss, which is a part of Sheol. We are told in the Bible that they maintain influence over the earth and hold spheres of authority in the heavens (that is, the twin heavens of the atmosphere and outer space, the shamayim), not that they have anything to do with Sheol. The only angels who deal with Sheol are elect angels. They are the ones who take the dead to their allotted places in death: to Torments in Sheol for unbelievers, and, previously, to Paradise in Sheol for believers, and now to the Third Heaven for believers. They are also the ones who consign rebel angels who violate any of the ground rules of this warfare in the Abyss.

The spirit that came up in 1 Samuel 28 is actually identified, not by the medium or by Saul, but by the Bible itself as Samuel. So, it is quite clear that this was really the Lord overriding a seance in order to punish Saul. Consider that Samuel had no good news for Saul when he came, except to tell him that he would be in Paradise with his sons when he died.

MuttleyLaff:
You are departing from the serious bone of contention here missjo and that is, lets take from your understanding, is it really impossible for a non believer to cast out a devil and/or demons in the name of Jesus, hmm?

NO.

If you have a different answer, please share with some explanations. I'm always willing to understand a perspective not known to me.

missjo:

Jesus was making an argument, it doesn't in anyway dispute Lucifer's abilities to deceive. I certainly did not also mean it in such a way that the devil deliberately possesses a person with his demons and then looks for someone to cast them out like a theatrical play.

That said, this is the next verse sir:

Matthew 12:27 New International Version (NIV)
27 And if I drive out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges.

If the Pharisees who believed not, also had the ability to cast out demons, by whom did they appear to do it sir?
Certainly not within workings of the Holy Spirit, don't you think?

First of all, the Lord Jesus only ever speaks the Truth. If He said that Satan cannot cast out Satan without destroying his kingdom, then take that to mean exactly what it says. The Lord never offered hypotheticals.

Regarding Matthew 12:27, the Lord was showing up their hypocrisy. They claimed that their own disciples were casting out demons. If they did, then why were they accusing Him of doing so using Satan's power? Obviously, their disciples had no such power and were doing no such thing. They were not even believers. Only our Lord and those He empowered were doing it. But if they believed that they were, then it was hypocritical of them to accuse the Lord of working for Satan.

missjo:

This is what I mean, which is why I added in the guise it was done in Jesus name

hmm very well thanks.

solite3:
my taught exactly only that satan do not really cast out satan but only appear to do so so as to sweep the gullible in deception.
Note I dont believe satan can cast out satan, he only appears to do so for he is a master deciever

solite3, there is no honour among thieves. The kingdom of darkness is a realm full of bullies. If given a chance satan will cast out satan, its in their DNA.

missjo:
This is what I mean, which is why I added in the guise it was done in Jesus name

solite3:
hmm very well thanks.

So now missjo, you want to tell us that the seven brothers, the sons of Sceva, did adventure in guise that got them chased out running for dear lives as they were getting beaten nakẹd by the demons, erhn, lol?

missjo:
NO.

Smiles.

missjo:
If you have a different answer, please share with some explanations. I'm always willing to understand a perspective not known to me.

Different answer, to please share with some explanations is the case in point, the seven brothers, the sons of Sceva

Ihedinobi3:

First of all, the Lord Jesus only ever speaks the Truth. If He said that Satan cannot cast out Satan without destroying his kingdom, then take that to mean exactly what it says. The Lord never offered hypotheticals.

Regarding Matthew 12:27, the Lord was showing up their hypocrisy. They claimed that their own disciples were casting out demons. If they did, then why were they accusing Him of doing so using Satan's power? Obviously, their disciples had no such power and were doing no such thing. They were not even believers. Only our Lord and those He empowered were doing it. But if they believed that they were, then it was hypocritical of them to accuse the Lord of working for Satan.

Okay

Ihedinobi3:

First of all, the Lord Jesus only ever speaks the Truth. If He said that Satan cannot cast out Satan without destroying his kingdom, then take that to mean exactly what it says. The Lord never offered hypotheticals.

Regarding Matthew 12:27, the Lord was showing up their hypocrisy. They claimed that their own disciples were casting out demons. If they did, then why were they accusing Him of doing so using Satan's power? Obviously, their disciples had no such power and were doing no such thing. They were not even believers. Only our Lord and those He empowered were doing it. But if they believed that they were, then it was hypocritical of them to accuse the Lord of working for Satan.

I think you are missing the point, she didnt say satan can indeed cast out satan but he only appear to do so, so as to decieve the gullible.
False prophets decieve by lying signs and wonders.
When Jesus cast out demons, the people from whom Jesus cast out these demons were truly free.

solite3:
I think you are missing the point, she didnt say satan can indeed cast out satan but he only appear to do so, so as to decieve the gullible.
False prophets decieve by lying signs and wonders.
When Jesus cast out demons, the people from whom Jesus cast out these demons were truly free.

I agree. I have also reread her post, and you may be right about what she is saying. I was concerned only with any notion that it is possible that anyone can cast out demons using Satan's power. It doesn't work that way at all. Satan does have an organized kingdom, and the rebel angels do work together. Having the ability to take possession of physical bodies at will was the selling point for joining Satan's rebellion in the first place, so it is unlikely that any of them would leave a physical body without a fight. In fact, we are told by the Lord that when a demon is cast out, it eventually goes back to see if it can still return. If it can, it doesn't do so alone. It goes and gets reinforcements to make it harder for it to be expelled next time.

You are both right that Satan and his minions do put up appearances to sell all kinds of lies, including that exorcism is really happening when it isn't at all. But that too is why I want to make sure that we understand what that part of the Bible teaches. If we understand it, then even the appearances will not deceive us. And, just as she said, the Antichrist and the multitude false prophets and false christs of the Tribulation will play this game even more effectively than they are doing now, so understanding what the Bible teaches about it will keep us safe from those lies when we run into them then.

¹³Now there were some itinerant Jewish exorcists who tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those with evil spirits.
They would say, “I bind you by Jesus, whom Paul proclaims.”
¹⁴Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this.
¹⁵Eventually, one of the evil spirits answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?”
¹⁶Then the man with the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. The attack was so violent that they ran out of the house nakẹd and wounded.
- Acts 19:13-16

OK, solite3 and missjo, here I am eating the humble pie and with my hands raised up. Tbh, I've for some unknown reason had the impression that it was them demons that jumped out the man and beat the hell out of those brothers. Technically, I could say it was the demons who indirectly beat the man but I'll be deceiving myself, if I do, so it means, after me revising Acts 19:13-16, I confidently now can say that, non believers cannot cast out demons, but if they try, can upset and annoy the demons to the extent that their actions could backfire and turn into a misadventure like that of the witch of Endor and those seven sons of Sceva, lol.

missjo I accept and agree with your capital NO. You were right. Acts 19:13-16 doesnt say the evil spirits/demons were cast out. They stayed inside the man but violently retaliated, lol.

Ihedinobi3:

I agree. I have also reread her post, and you may be right about what she is saying. I was concerned only with any notion that it is possible that anyone can cast out demons using Satan's power. It doesn't work that way at all. Satan does have an organized kingdom, and the rebel angels do work together. Having the ability to take possession of physical bodies at will was the selling point for joining Satan's rebellion in the first place, so it is unlikely that any of them would leave a physical body without a fight. In fact, we are told by the Lord that when a demon is cast out, it eventually goes back to see if it can still return. If it can, it doesn't do so alone. It goes and gets reinforcements to make it harder for it to be expelled next time.

You are both right that Satan and his minions do put up appearances to sell all kinds of lies, including that exorcism is really happening when it isn't at all. But that too is why I want to make sure that we understand what that part of the Bible teaches. If we understand it, then even the appearances will not deceive us. And, just as she said, the Antichrist and the multitude false prophets and false christs of the Tribulation will play this game even more effectively than they are doing now, so understanding what the Bible teaches about it will keep us safe from those lies when we run into them then.

yes of course. Btw I dont believe we believers will partake of the tribulation because the tribulation will be a time for Jacob's trouble not the church. When God has taken away the church, then Daniel last week from the 70 weeks will be fulfilled.The second coming of Christ is in two phase, first the rapture then followed by the physical appearance for all the world to see him. The church is told to expect the coming of Christ to be at any time but the physical appearance of Christ on earth is after the coming of the antichrist (a seven year reign on the earth)

MuttleyLaff:
¹³Now there were some itinerant Jewish exorcists who tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those with evil spirits.
They would say, “I bind you by Jesus, whom Paul proclaims.”
¹⁴Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this.
¹⁵Eventually, one of the evil spirits answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?”
¹⁶Then the man with the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. The attack was so violent that they ran out of the house nakẹd and wounded.
- Acts 19:13-16

OK, solite3 and missjo, here I am eating the humble pie and with my hands raised up. Tbh, I've for some unknown reason had the impression that it was them demons that jumped out the man and beat the hell out of those brothers. Technically, I could say it was the demons who indirectly beat the man but I'll be deceiving myself, if I do, so it means, after me revising Acts 19:13-16, I confidently now can say that, non believers cannot cast out demons, but if they try, can upset and annoy the demons to the extent that their actions could backfire and turn into a misadventure like that of the witch of Endor and those seven sons of Sceva, lol.

missjo I accept and agree with your capital NO. You were right. Acts 19:13-16 doesnt say the evil spirits/demons were cast out. They stayed inside the man but violently retaliated, lol.

well muttylaff you have answered your own question. Non believers cannot cast out demons.

solite3:
well muttylaff you have answered your own question. Non believers cannot cast out demons.

It is your question solite3. It originally, is the question asked by the thread heading or title.

I was, when everyone was dilly dallying with the answer, forced to re-echo the thread titled heading, that was asking: Can A Non Believer Cast Out A Devil In The Name Of Jesus? It was only missjo, a female for that matter, that had the balls to put her head on the line to say NO, everyone else were shuffling their feet and not committing themselves to a definite answer, so how I found myself step in, trying to get out from everyone an emphatic YES or NO answer

All along until my revision of Acts 19:13-16 and looking at it with a fresh, critical and careful perspective, I had been under the impression that it was some cast out demons that jumped out to flog the sons of Sceva nakẹd and wounded, when in actual fact it was the possessed man himself that beat the seven brothers silly.

solite3:
yes of course. Btw I dont believe we believers will partake of the tribulation because the tribulation will be a time for Jacob's trouble not the church. When God has taken away the church, then Daniel last week from the 70 weeks will be fulfilled.The second coming of Christ is in two phase, first the rapture then followed by the physical appearance for all the world to see him. The church is told to expect the coming of Christ to be at any time but the physical appearance of Christ on earth is after the coming of the antichrist (a seven year reign on the earth)

I think that we already touched this a little bit. If you are up for it, I would be happy to discuss it again more comprehensively. As always, the aim is not to force a doctrine on you. I only want us to look at the Bible together and establish what it actually says.

Ihedinobi3:

I think that we already touched this a little bit. If you are up for it, I would be happy to discuss it again more comprehensively. As always, the aim is not to force a doctrine on you. I only want us to look at the Bible together and establish what it actually says.

alright

missjo:

Are you contrasting the workings of the cross with the workings of the law of gravity?

Really Muttley?

You didn't seem to view my response to your post on Jesus' death for three days. Don't get confused by all these carnal interpretations. Here is a quote from me in another post that might solve your puzzle

Preacher, you're already guilty of what you're insinuating. You've taken preconceived notions and muddied this passage in them. We should not hurriedly seek to unite all scripture under the banner of preconceived notions, rather let us seek God and grow in a personal relationship with Him and as we do, some incoherences will seamlessly fit together.
Now your assumption that these are unconverted people is wrong because these are people who according to the Lord had at some point accepted Him as Lord(They had said to him Lord..v21). They had even developed their faith as far as casting out demons, prophesying and done miracles which many have not even reached to today(the unconverted cannot do these in His name, even the lying signs of the occult pastors are not done in Jesus' name). You might then ask why He said He never knew them. Well this knowing is in the order of Adam knowing his wife (Gen 4:1) to give birth to fruit of the womb which is the fruit the Lord referred to in v18- 20 of the passage. Again, their failure to enter the kingdom is not, as u have supposed with a notion unfounded in this passage, as a result of depending on their works but rather as the Lord said because they "practised lawlessness"( v23 in literal greek). Again, the will of the Father which the Lord spoke of here that they were wanting in is not found in some other text but in this same text which is to follow the narrow way that leads to bearing good/desirable fruit, paraphrasing. (v13-19), which only few are ever willing to follow, corroborated in (Jn 15:8 ). Also, a major challenge is that you do not differentiate between making heaven which is solely by possession of God's seed in the human spirit(grace) and entering the kingdom of heaven, a quality of life- living the heavenly life here on earth as in Mt6:10(the subject matter here) which is by the choices we make here on earth and lifestyle. So as i said, its more important to grow in our relationship with God and with time things will gradually begin to fall in place rather than try to solve all bible puzzles at our current level which could lead to false doctrines and loss of intimate relationship with God.

budaatum:

That depends on what you mean by "demons". I know a person currently seeking to have bet9ja demon driven out of him.

budaatum:

That depends on what you mean by "demons". I know a person currently seeking to have bet9ja demon driven out of him.

MuttleyLaff:


solite3, forget about all that beautiful good and dandy saving thing and/or not saved in the first place for the moment. All I want you to do is not straddle the fence, but to tell from your understanding if a non believer can cast out a devil and/or demons in the name of Jesus or not, hmm? People do things they really dont believe in, and get surprised when they get rude awakening shocking results. Case in point, the witch of Endor. Obviously a scammer plus trickster, but she got a surprising, frigthening and unpleasant discovery on that with King Saul, lol.

solite3:
well, muttley the witch of Endor wasnt a scammer atleast the bible never said so. Demon spirit recognise the truth, for example they knew who Jesus was and called him so until Jesus silence them, in the same vein, they must have know that God had rejected saul and only rebroadcasted what samuel said when he was alive which saul already knew.

Ihedinobi3:

I actually had a long conversation with another believer with respect to this yesterday. John MacArthur used that verse to teach that some believers will end up in the Lake of Fire. That, of course, is a major reason that I dislike that man's ministry. John 3:18 is not confusing at all. Only those who believe will be saved. Only those who don't are condemned. It has nothing to do with casting out demons.

The point that our Lord was making in that passage was that if you don't believe in Him, you cannot be saved, no matter what other qualification you are persuaded that you can present before Him at the Judgment of the Great White Throne.

This might help?
Quote from another post on this issue

Preacher, you're already guilty of what you're insinuating. You've taken preconceived notions and muddied this passage in them. We should not hurriedly seek to unite all scripture under the banner of preconceived notions, rather let us seek God and grow in a personal relationship with Him and as we do, some incoherences will seamlessly fit together.
Now your assumption that these are unconverted people is wrong because these are people who according to the Lord had at some point accepted Him as Lord(They had said to him Lord..v21). They had even developed their faith as far as casting out demons, prophesying and done miracles which many have not even reached to today(the unconverted cannot do these in His name, even the lying signs of the occult pastors are not done in Jesus' name). You might then ask why He said He never knew them. Well this knowing is in the order of Adam knowing his wife (Gen 4:1) to give birth to fruit of the womb which is the fruit the Lord referred to in v18- 20 of the passage. Again, their failure to enter the kingdom is not, as u have supposed with a notion unfounded in this passage, as a result of depending on their works but rather as the Lord said because they "practised lawlessness"( v23 in literal greek). Again, the will of the Father which the Lord spoke of here that they were wanting in is not found in some other text but in this same text which is to follow the narrow way that leads to bearing good/desirable fruit, paraphrasing. (v13-19), corroborated in (Jn 15:8 )which only few are ever willing to follow. So as i said, its more important to grow in our relationship with God and with time things will gradually begin to fall in place rather than try to solve all bible puzzles at our current level which could lead to false doctrines and loss of intimate relationship with God.

Ihedinobi3:


Hello solite3.

I think that your second post has it right.

I will add that the Lord Jesus did not say that anyone actually cast out demons in His Name. He said that some people will claim to have done so, in order to claim some association with Him.

True. But if you know the shining light of His presence, you will know that no one can lie lie before Him but only learn. He himself never denied their claims but condemned their persons based on another indictment.

[s]Suffice to say that ever since the completion of the Bible, no human being has had the authority to drive demons out of a physical body. It was one of those signs that were necessary to establish the authority of those who were bringing new revelation to the Church. That is, the ability to exorcise evil spirits was one of those "badges of authority" that the Lord gave to the believers of the apostolic age so that their message could be accepted by anyone with a heart for the Truth. They were carrying new revelations not found in the Old Testament, so it was necessary that God give them something to demonstrate that they were really His Emissaries.
[/s]

Once the New Testament was completed, therefore, the abilities were removed so that we could focus on their Message rather than on the signs of authority that God gave them. So, even being a believer today does not mean that we can exorcise evil spirits, no. We cannot. If anyone is troubled with demon possession, the only way to help such a person is to give them the Gospel, if they are willing to hear it, and pray for them. It is important to keep in mind that demons can only enter a human body with the human being's consent, so it is the one who has an evil spirit who must be willing to lose it in order for the Lord to remove it from them.

[s]Clearly, if a believer has no authority today to engage evil spirits directly, an unbeliever has no chance at all.[/s]

Please read Mk 16:17-18 , Jn 14:12, 1Cor 12:7,9,10, 1Cor 12:31, 1Cor 14:1, Eph 6:12 and stop spreading these deusions of demons that shortchange believers and keep men bound. Believers will always have this right from God and all may be empowered by the Spirit

As for what Matthew 7:21-22 teaches, it is only that it is possible to deceive oneself into thinking that the Lord Jesus will accept one into His Kingdom when one has never believed in Him here on earth. There are lots of people who are thinking that they are doing all sorts of things for the Lord right now, although they don't care about the Gospel at all. One spoke to you on this thread too. You will also find multitude "pastors" and "prophets" and "apostles" and "bishops" who fancy themselves "anointed exorcists" (they are so popular that it is impossible that you haven't heard about them) who do not even know the Gospel. They are the sort of people that the Lord Jesus was speaking of. They are unbelievers who are fooling themselves with fanciful ideas of miraculous power. They do not cast out demons of any sort. They do not do any true miracles of any sort. They are full of tricks and lies, deceiving and being deceived. When they stand before the Lord at the Judgment of the Great White Throne, they will receive in themselves the just reward of their wickedness.

While there are many fake exorcists who actually never cast out demons from people but do a make-believe, it doesn't take anything away from those empowered by the Lord Jesus just as fake mints don't take any thing away from the real

solite3:
alright

I see the following things in your post (please correct me if I am wrong):

1. the time of Jacob's trouble does not apply to the Church.

2. the Church will be removed from the world before the Tribulation commences.

3. the Lord Jesus will return twice, first to take the Church away, and next to show Himself to the world.

4. the return of the Lord for the Church is an imminent thing.

5. the reign of the Antichrist will last seven years.

For the sake of order and clarity, could you explain why you believe the above to be true? I don't want to make any assumptions about how you read the Bible and what you see in the Bible that leads you to these conclusions. If you can explain it comprehensively to me, it will be easier for me to show you what I read in the Bible as well. So, where and how do you see these things in the Bible?

Finallydead:


True. But if you know the shining light of His presence, you will know that no one can lie lie before Him but only learn. He himself never denied their claims but condemned their persons based on another indictment.

Please read Mk 16:17-18 , Jn 14:12, 1Cor 12:7,9,10, 1Cor 12:31, 1Cor 14:1, Eph 6:12 and stop spreading these deusions of demons that shortchange believers and keep men bound. Believers will always have this right from God and all may be empowered by the Spirit

While there are many fake exorcists who actually never cast out demons from people but do a make-believe, it doesn't take anything away from those empowered by the Lord Jesus just as fake mints don't take any thing away from the real

Hello.

This response is only to defend what I have said by addressing legitimate challenges to it in your post. Again, it is not to persuade you to believe what I do. You are free to believe whatever you want. The rewards and consequences of your exercise of the freedom of your will lie with the Lord, not with me. So, if you disagree with me, it is fine by me that you do. I still stand by what I say. I will not change my position to please you, and, as I have said, I don't require that you change yours to please me.

1. Mark 16 ends in verse 8. Everything after that in that chapter is not part of the Bible. It is a gloss, that is, an addition written in by a scribe who was copying the manuscript.

2. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
(KJV) John 14:12

This Scripture is explained by the following Scriptures:

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
(KJV) Luke 15:7

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
(KJV) Matthew 16:19

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins...
(KJV) Colossians 1:12-14

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost...
(KJV) Matthew 28:19

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
(KJV) 2 Peter 1:3-4

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
(KJV) Daniel 12:3

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(KJV) John 3:16

The above means that there is nothing more important or of greater value to God than the repentance of the sinner. For that He gave His One Unique Son in order for the sinner to be saved. Then we were given the Gospel to take to the world so that through it any sinner who wishes it can be reconciled to God. That is, there is no greater work than the teaching of the Gospel to bring in unbelievers to the Body of Christ and build them up to full spiritual maturity.

3. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues...
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 12:7,9-10

The following Scriptures frame the above Scripture:

12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 14:12

26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 14:26

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 13:8-10

​1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds...
(KJV) Hebrews 1:1-2

​1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 ( For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; ) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
(KJV) 1 John 1:1-4

16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when[b] we made known unto you[/b] the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty...19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
(KJV) 2 Peter 1:16,19-21

20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
(KJV) Jude 1:20-21

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
(KJV) Ephesians 4:11-16

That is, the gifts that are given in the Church are for "edification," that is, for building up the Church, both in terms of adding new believers to the Church through the work of the evangelist and in terms of helping each other grow to spiritual maturity through the teaching of the Truth. The gifts are not given for their own sake. They are given for provision of the Truth to the Church. For that reason, Paul told the Corinthians that some gifts would not last in the Church. They would be removed eventually when "that which is perfect is come." That was the complete Bible. Now that the Scriptures have been completed and we all have access to it, only those gifts that open the Truth up to us are really "chief" in the Church. All other gifts are given to aid those ones. So, the evangelist uses the Bible to open the door of Salvation to unbelievers, and the pastor-teacher uses the Bible to feed those who come through that door, so that we all grow up to the maturity defined by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. The evangelist and the pastor-teacher do not need to use miracles anymore to demonstrate that what they are saying is true: the Bible is the witness to their message (Acts 17:11). This is why Paul told the Corinthians to cease from childhood (1 Corinthians 14:20; compare 1 Corinthians 13:11). It is spiritual childishness to get hung up on learning aids instead of the learning itself. The knowledge of the Lord Jesus is what we are to gain. Miracles do not give it to us. Only diligent tutelage in the Truth does. So, the Lord Himself removed the props and supports after the Bible was completed (Hebrews 1:2) so that we can focus on the Truth.

4. 1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 14:1

At the time of Paul's writing of this verse, the Bible had not yet been completed. Prophecy was still the way through which the revelation of God's Truth was brought to believers. There was much that the Lord had to say that had not been said, so there were believers in the Church whom the Lord used to bring that through. As you can see from 1 Corinthians 13:8, even prophecy was scheduled by the Lord to cease when the Bible was finally completed. Prophecy is how the Scriptures were written and completed. Now that they have been, there is no new revelation coming from the Lord, so prophecy has ceased.

5. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
(KJV) Ephesians 6:12

The above Scripture is framed by the following Scriptures:

3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 ( For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; ) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ...
(KJV) 2 Corinthians 10:3-5

4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, 5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; 6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, 7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, 8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; 9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; 10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
(KJV) 2 Corinthians 6:4-10

That is, the way we fight against the evil spirits is through spiritual growth, progress, and ministry of the Truth. Compare the context of the Ephesians 6:12 that includes "pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests...and always keep on praying for all the saints" (Ephesians 6:18).

Conclusion: None of these Scriptures teach in any way that we have any business trying to cast out demons from people.

As I said before, you are free to believe whatever you like. I don't begrudge you that right. How you exercise it is between you and the Lord. If you don't agree with what I have said, feel free to discard it. But it would be a waste of your time and energy to demand that I discard it too just because you disapprove in some way. I am not responsible to you. I am responsible to the Lord, just as you are.

Finallydead:

You didn't seem to view my response to your post on Jesus' death for three days. Don't get confused by all these carnal interpretations. Here is a quote from me in another post that might solve your puzzle

I viewed the post and I thought i responded. Apologies!
Most of the time, I'm multi-tasking while making contributions on the forum.

In view of the quote you shared, i particularly love the bit about doing well to avoid falling into the trap of trying to solve the puzzles in the Word of God. Personally, faith in the cross is all I need.

Christ the source, the cross the means - everything else is just education

MuttleyLaff:
It is your question solite3. It originally, is the question asked by the thread heading or title.

I was, when everyone was dilly dallying with the answer, forced to re-echo the thread titled heading, that was asking: Can A Non Believer Cast Out A Devil In The Name Of Jesus? It was only missjo, a female for that matter, that had the balls to put her head on the line to say NO, everyone else were shuffling their feet and not committing themselves to a definite answer, so how I found myself step in, trying to get out from everyone an emphatic YES or NO answer

All along until my revision of Acts 19:13-16 and looking at it with a fresh, critical and careful perspective, I had been under the impression that it was some cast out demons that jumped out to flog the sons of Sceva nakẹd and wounded, when in actual fact it was the possessed man himself that beat the seven brothers silly.

MuttleyLaff:
¹³Now there were some itinerant Jewish exorcists who tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those with evil spirits.
They would say, “I bind you by Jesus, whom Paul proclaims.”
¹⁴Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this.
¹⁵Eventually, one of the evil spirits answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?”
¹⁶Then the man with the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. The attack was so violent that they ran out of the house nakẹd and wounded.
- Acts 19:13-16

OK, solite3 and missjo, here I am eating the humble pie and with my hands raised up. Tbh, I've for some unknown reason had the impression that it was them demons that jumped out the man and beat the hell out of those brothers. Technically, I could say it was the demons who indirectly beat the man but I'll be deceiving myself, if I do, so it means, after me revising Acts 19:13-16, I confidently now can say that, non believers cannot cast out demons, but if they try, can upset and annoy the demons to the extent that their actions could backfire and turn into a misadventure like that of the witch of Endor and those seven sons of Sceva, lol.

missjo I accept and agree with your capital NO. You were right. Acts 19:13-16 doesnt say the evil spirits/demons were cast out. They stayed inside the man but violently retaliated, lol.

It ever hurts to admit being in the wrong, ya see?

MuttleyLaff:
solite3, there is no honour among thieves. The kingdom of darkness is a realm full of bullies. If given a chance satan will cast out satan, its in their DNA

It's most def in the DNA of the kingdom of darkness.

Lol @ no honor among thieves. This was good

Ihedinobi3:

Conclusion: None of these Scriptures teach in any way that we have any business trying to cast out demons from people.

Can someone explain to this individual that "Feed my lambs" does not mean "Give them grass".

Ihedinobi3:


This response is only to defend what I have said by addressing legitimate challenges to it in your post. Again, it is not to persuade you to believe what I do. You are free to believe whatever you want. The rewards and consequences of your exercise of the freedom of your will lie with the Lord, not with me. So, if you disagree with me, it is fine by me that you do. I still stand by what I say. I will not change my position to please you, and, as I have said, I don't require that you change yours to please me.

Kindly let me borrow this.

1. Mark 16 ends in verse 8. Everything after that in that chapter is not part of the Bible. It is a gloss, that is, an addition written in by a scribe who was copying the manuscript.

Its absurd to even believe this for its abrupt ending in v8. Second your claim is unfounded and derived from those who could not believe in the power of faith demonstrated through themselves and would rather tamper with scripture. You shortchange yourself if you accept this

2. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
(KJV) John 14:12

This Scripture is explained by the following Scriptures:

Not so. The works He did were the signs recorded in John's gospel which did not involve converting men to Christ. Let us first do these works as He said before even defining the greater works for contention sake. Although converting a sinner is more important than just working the miraculous, it was clearly never in the context and does not take away the need for the miraculous.

Consider the insight of Peter the miracle worker..His name through faith in His name has made this man walk..Acts 3:8 and 2Pet1:1...to them who have received like precious faith...

And furthermore the Lord's- whatever you ask in my name, that will be done(Jn 16:23-24) and as well Mk 9:23... ALL things.. and Mk 11:22-24 too.

This name has not been taken away from us nor our faith in it.

3. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues...
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 12:7,9-10

The following Scriptures frame the above Scripture:


8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
(KJV) 1 Corinthians 13:8-10

That which is perfect is not and can never be the bible though it is the true record of the sacred utterances of God. It is however full of translation errors and other human errors because carnal men translated it just as we both have different views, anyone translating could get it muddied through his lens. Even if there ever could be a perfect translation, God has always wanted to move us from laws written on external platforms to a law written in our hearts by His Spirit-the true new covenant. (Heb 8:10-11, Jn 4:23, 2Cor3:3, both showing that the bible is not God's perfect but the work of the Spirit). Rather the Spirit was given to us to teach us all things (1Cor 2:10-13, Jn 14:26), and remains the only one into whose custody the Lord left us, never the bible(Jn 16:7,13). As God, He comes first before the bible and is sufficient with or without the bible. The perfect here is perfect Love or the Reign of Love, which is why love never ceases, when all these cease. It is the point when the love of God deposited in us reaches its fullness,tipping point and overcomes all imperfections. That happens when we become a perfect man as in Eph 4:13 and put away all childish things and we know FULLY as we are known(no more in part as we ALL do now, even Paul said he only knew in part NOW which is also why I told you even as a minster you must be humble to keep on learning), only in the coming reign of Love will the manifestations of the spirit become unnecessary because we will see face to face. For now that we still ALL see through a vague glass being imperfect, they are necessary for the profit (joint edification in greek) and teaching of all.(1Cor 12:7).
As a matter of fact, inasmuch as i am an avid lover of scripture, finding hardly any loving it more, even scripture is relevant only till this perfect day of the reign of love when Christ rises fully in us.
...We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts(2Pet 1:19)

In other words both scripture and the manifestations Paul spoke of will give way at the same time and to the same cause.

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But being true in love ( literal greek), may grow up into him in all things , which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
(KJV) Ephesians 4:11-16

Your scripture emphasizes my point that perfect love or the reign of love is the point where we no longer need the five-fold offices or the gifts of the spirit. The whole text is littered with "love". Indeed the graces and five-fold offices are toward edification and will always be needed until we no longer need edification that is when we reach perfection which is the fulness of Christ in all His attributes. You and I as well as every believer falls short of this. But anytime you reach this, then tell me the offices and the gifts have been withdrawn and I will believe. There was never any indication in any of your scripture quotations that edification will be done apart from the graces of the Spirit but they do show they should be done together. Paul only suggested that the gifts through love is more excellent than the gifts without(1Cor14). A little research in Church history would show you clearly that no office was ever removed and even the bible NEVER said any office was removed. There were many faithfuls who taught the word accurately with the demonstrations of the Spirit. Read God's Generals, Smith Wigglesworth, Kenneth Hagin who ministered to the SAINTS as well as countless more. If you choose this model for your ministry, you are only shortchanging yourself. You have only one life to live, please live it to the fullest. If you hear the Holy Spirit, I humbly suggest you seek Him on this. Need I also say that we will grow up to him in all things also means power and all Divine attributes

[s]So, the Lord Himself removed the props and supports after the Bible was completed [/s](Hebrews 1:2)

Your text doesn't in any way validate your claim. God still speaks today in His son Jesus Christ through His Spirit dwelling in us as earlier addressed. Bible is not the Son of God, take note.

5. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
(KJV) Ephesians 6:12

The above Scripture is framed by the following Scriptures:


4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, 5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; 6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, 7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, 8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true; 9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed; 10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
(KJV) 2 Corinthians 6:4-10

Your scripture again proves that as ministers of God we will always need not just the word of truth but the power of God as well and the armor of God. A true minister should be approved in ALL things. Also read 1Cor 4:18-20, Paul shows that power and not word alone is the basis of ministerial authority, when others tried to challenge his doctrine.
If you don't know, let me tell you. Anyone who wears this armor will cause demons to flee at his sight, the anointing of God also causes them to flee and does other supernatural feats.

[s]Conclusion: None of these scriptures teach in any way that we have any business trying to cast out demons from people.[/s]

Conclusion: Since you are well read in scriptures, I recommend you seek the Holy Spirit and hear his witness on this matter. Don't be shortchanged.

As I said before, you are free to believe whatever you like. I don't begrudge you that right. How you exercise it is between you and the Lord. If you don't agree with what I have said, feel free to discard it. But it would be a waste of your time and energy to demand that I discard it too just because you disapprove in some way. I am not responsible to you. I am responsible to the Lord, just as you are.

Again please let me borrow this.

missjo:

I viewed the post and I thought i responded. Apologies!
Most of the time, I'm multi-tasking while making contributions on the forum.

In view of the quote you shared, i particularly love the bit about doing well to avoid falling into the trap of trying to solve the puzzles in the Word of God. Personally, faith in the cross is all I need.

Christ the source, the cross the means - everything else is just education

No please, no apologies needed. Only wanted to be sure you saw it. Please don't get me wrong, I don't advocate for ignorance, but for utmost diligence in growing in our relationship with God as well as patience to let the Spirit reveal to us ALL unknowns and puzzles at the pace of our growth and not TRYING by just our intellect to do so. We need faith in the cross plus all these listed in (2Pet 1:5-8 ) and more. I suggest knowledge in all its fullness but not through our limited intellect alone which acts as an impure lens but through our RELATIONSHIP with God making all the darkness become light. If you don't grow in your relationship, your knowledge will remain on the same level even if you study so much (2Cor 3:3,15-18). If you grow through fellowship with the Spirit, all knowledge and the bible puzzles becomes easy to understand. That's my template for knowledge.

missjo:

I viewed the post and I thought i responded. Apologies!
Most of the time, I'm multi-tasking while making contributions on the forum.

In view of the quote you shared, i particularly love the bit about doing well to avoid falling into the trap of trying to solve the puzzles in the Word of God. Personally, faith in the cross is all I need.

Christ the source, the cross the means - everything else is just education

With all due respect to your right to choose your attitudes and actions in your life, I am quite disappointed by the above. Your enthusiastic response to ichthys.com heartened me and gave me some hope that you would join the ranks of believers zealously growing in the Truth in order to become able to help others to do the same. In fact, the Truth, the whole realm of biblical Truth is what the Cross opened up to us. In other words, the purpose of the Cross was to open up the whole Truth of the Bible to us, so that we can believe it and help others to believe it, thereby honoring God Who gave the Lord Jesus Christ to die for us, the Lord Jesus Who paid such a hefty price to bring us to salvation, and the Holy Spirit Who empowered that Sacrifice. So, treating spiritual growth as "just education" is a most unfortunate thing to do. Nonetheless, it is your right to do as you choose. It is you yourself who will answer to the Lord for your choices, not I or anyone else, so I do not say these things presuming to be able to make your choices for you.

missjo:

It's most def in the DNA of the kingdom of darkness.

Lol @ no honor among thieves. This was good

The Scriptures are very clear that Satan's kingdom is organized, even if not perfect. The cinematic representation of spiritual realities by which not a few people today appear to judge the Scriptures is never reliable.

There is no such thing as Satan casting out Satan. No evil spirit ever expels another, not even if they are stronger in power than them. That would actually defeat the purpose of Satan's kingdom. Possession of a human body can lead to some limitation of the free will (compare Mark 5:15; 9:18, for example) for human beings. Satan is very okay with us. All his kingdom is, in fact. As long as human beings can avoid making a deliberate choice to believe in the Lord, he feels that he is winning. The reason is that we were created to provide a replacement for him and his fellow rebels in the Family of God. If we cannot replace them, then the sentence of destruction passed upon them cannot be carried out.

It is a very romantic idea that people have that Satan runs a kingdom that will come apart under some small stress, but that is not what the Scriptures teach at all. He plays humans off against each other and treats unbelievers and even foolish believers sometimes as allies, but he is not at all interested in human beings for our own good. His comrades are not human beings, they are the angels that chose to join him in his rebellion.

This would take a lot to explain, but then it doesn't seem to me like you want to hear it, and there is no occasion for going that deep into something whose surface is already quite clear, at least enough for anyone who loves the Truth to take the trouble of learning the rest of it from the right source.

Ihedinobi3:

Actually, the medium of Endor was a con-woman. Everyone who claims any ability to contact the dead is playing a con. No one can contact or bring up the dead except the Lord Himself. Not even Satan can mess with Sheol. In fact, all rebel angels are afraid of the Abyss, which is a part of Sheol. We are told in the Bible that they maintain influence over the earth and hold spheres of authority in the heavens (that is, the twin heavens of the atmosphere and outer space, the shamayim), not that they have anything to do with Sheol. The only angels who deal with Sheol are elect angels. They are the ones who take the dead to their allotted places in death: to Torments in Sheol for unbelievers, and, previously, to Paradise in Sheol for believers, and now to the Third Heaven for believers. They are also the ones who consign rebel angels who violate any of the ground rules of this warfare in the Abyss.

She never knew her visitor was King Saul until she performed her 'con' and saw the answering spirit who spoke through her and gave a prophecy that came to pass.

The question then is ..... Do you really understand what a con is?

Ihedinobi3:

With all due respect to your right to choose your attitudes and actions in your life, I am quite disappointed by the above. Your enthusiastic response to ichthys.com heartened me and gave me some hope that you would join the ranks of believers zealously growing in the Truth in order to become able to help others to do the same. In fact, the Truth, the whole realm of biblical Truth is what the Cross opened up to us. In other words, the purpose of the Cross was to open up the whole Truth of the Bible to us, so that we can believe it and help others to believe it, thereby honoring God Who gave the Lord Jesus Christ to die for us, the Lord Jesus Who paid such a hefty price to bring us to salvation, and the Holy Spirit Who empowered that Sacrifice. So, treating spiritual growth as "just education" is a most unfortunate thing to do. Nonetheless, it is your right to do as you choose. It is you yourself who will answer to the Lord for your choices, not I or anyone else, so I do not say these things presuming to be able to make your choices for you.

I think you may have misunderstood what I meant by that comment.

While I continue in my desire to expand my knowledge of the truth, gaining more each day, and educating myself on the scholastic aspect of Christianity and spirituality, still all of this is certainly not the prerequisite for my admittance into the presence of Jehovah, neither is it a requirement for partaking in the glorious Millennial reign of Christ in New Jerusalem - it is for my own benefit as a flawed human being, not for the glorification of God

This is what I mean.